How long would you trust Nicopress-type wire fittings?

[Brian Palmer]

My daysailer has three stainless wire stays for the mast with eyes formed around thimbles and copper or bronze pressed sleeves. I assume they are as old as the boat (1976), and I assume the boat was used only occassionally, probably in salt water.

How long can they be expected to last and when should I consider replacing the wire rigging? This is a very simple rig on a Drascombe day boat.

Thanks,

Brian

[Phil Y]

i think here in oz insurers will only insure your rig if the wire is less than 10 years old. It'd be the wire rather than the fittings I'd be worried about.

[John E Hardiman]

Here at the shipyard, we get 7-10 years out of IPS wire/SS sweage fitting rigging systems. These are used in saltwater and get yearly inspection and testing. As Phil said, it is the wire that gets down checked before the fitting. When pulled to breaking after being taken out of service, they all break the wire at the corrosion point were the fitting doesnt allow the inner wire strands to get lubed and I have never seen one break at less than the test load, i.e. 2 twice the rated load which is 1/5th the breaking strength of the wire.

[MiddleAgesMan]

For a lightly used small boat in sheltered waters you should be good right up until you see an individual strand of wire break. At that point it's time for new. But if you plan to take it across oceans or into big water, away from shelter, replace it now.

[Canoeyawl]

That is such a simple, inexpensive piece, why worry about it at all?
Replace it now, before you have to.

[bamamick]

You can usually see it if they are going to go. Some discoloration where the wire enters the fitting will sometimes give you a hint.

The idea that I can cut my own wire and swage my own fittings will sometimes cause me to wake up in the middle of the night in a cold sweat!

Mickey Lake

[Ian McColgin]

So much depends on the size of the boat. Most rigging manuels discourage Nicro press for standing rigging but on low stress rigs I've found it just fine. There should be two nicros per eye and they should be crimped with the one at the throat second to ensure an equal load. You need to leave a bit of wire beyond the outer fitting so to keep from tearing flesh, fabric and fiber I solder onto that. This also ensures that you don't have water intrusion along the strands at that point, though you might lower down atop the throat nicro.

There are zinc and something alloy nicros out there which are distinctly inferior to the copper units.

[Jay Greer]

To me, Nicro Press fittings are an abomination to the eye of the sailor. They really are offensive to my eye as well. So, I just do not use them, prefering swaged fittings instead of those ugly copper collars that are munched on the wire. I really like a spliced fitting but not many of us are willing to take the time to learn how to do a propper job. A spliced 7x7 wire retains its flexual strength and is really more reliable than a swaged fitting. But, swages are fast to produce in a rigging loft. Only when a swaged fitting shows discoloration at the point of entry of the wire I make a note to keep an eye on that fitting. Even though I advocate reversing shrouds and stays every other season in order to prevent moisture intrusion from getting a hold I also, gently heat each swage and press a lump of bee's wax, at the point of entry, which melts into the strands of the wire preventing moisture from getting in as well.
I have started using Spectra for certain rigging components on "Bright Star". I have found it ideal for running backs and topping lifts. My main concern is weathering from UV exposure. Other wise I might consider using it for standing rigging as well.
Jay

[ramillett]

Jay on our boat the swages come out of the machine hot , so I give the riggers the wax , before the wire gets cool . The only place we use Nicro-Press is wire luffs on headsails , and lifting slings for dinghies .

[Brian Palmer]

Thanks for the replies.

This is a 15 1/2 foot boat; total sail area is about 120 ft sq., standing lug rig with a jib set flying.

The wire is no more than 1/8 inch.

Brian

[Ian McColgin]

At that level, it's good till you see a broken strand or a crack starting in a nicro sleave. I've seen units that were over fifty doing fine. Others need replacing after only a dozen years or so.

My mother's old Cape Cod Knockabout came to her in 1939, we had her till 1965 and never changed the stays, which were nicro'd at the ends. I saw her just three years ago and it looked like the same nicros. Now you have my interest up and I will be going by there this summer to scatter Mom and Dad's ashes so I'll look in.

G'luck

[Michael D. Storey]

In my experience with standing rigging failures, it has been the turnbuckle that fails first. Happened last time in 1973 on lake Huron short after the start of the Mac. Limped into Bayfield, the town where Judith and I now share a cottage, of all the coincidents.

[Brian Palmer]

No turnbuckles here, just lashings from the bottom of the stays to pad eyes. What got me wondering (worrying?) was the rigging failure on a Drascombe boat at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum's Small Craft Festival last October.

Brian

[dredbob]

No turnbuckles here, just lashings from the bottom of the stays to pad eyes. What got me wondering (worrying?) was the rigging failure on a Drascombe boat at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum's Small Craft Festival last October.

Brian

What was the mode of failure? Did the wire break, the nicro, or did it slip, etc?

[Brian Palmer]

I think there were reports it was one of the Nicropress fittings. But, I wasn't there.

Brian

[Jay Greer]

Certainly judging by the smallness of your rig and boat, there is no reason to be using wire and nicro press fittings. You might want to investigate the idea of using Amsteel cordage in place of it. !/4" Amsteel has a breaking strength of 7,700 lbs.
http://www.amsteelblue.com/cpage.cfm?cpid=448
Jay

[Full Tilt]

A stuntman on set last week showed me the correct way to attach Nico press fittings. Slide the collar onto the wire and up out of the way. Unlay 3 strands of the wire about 6" so you now have 2 ends. Take the 2 separate ends and pull them apart the width of the eye you are creating. Put the ends together as if you were tying them into the first wrap of a reef knot. Continue to spirally wrap each end around the other, relaying the cable as you go. Like if you were relaying the strands of rope in a grommet. It will look similar to a spliced eye at this point, but with the extra strand length sticking out. Slide the nico press collar down over everything and crimp. Cut excess strand off close to fitting. That's how they do it when a person is being suspended by the wire.
Mike

[wizbang 13]

With rope lashings on the bottom, it would be almost impossible to break the wire or fitting, unless the lashings were spectra/amsteel.

[John E Hardiman]

A stuntman on set last week showed me the correct way to attach Nico press fittings. Slide the collar onto the wire and up out of the way. Unlay 3 strands of the wire about 6" so you now have 2 ends. Take the 2 separate ends and pull them apart the width of the eye you are creating. Put the ends together as if you were tying them into the first wrap of a reef knot. Continue to spirally wrap each end around the other, relaying the cable as you go. Like if you were relaying the strands of rope in a grommet. It will look similar to a spliced eye at this point, but with the extra strand length sticking out. Slide the nico press collar down over everything and crimp. Cut excess strand off close to fitting. That's how they do it when a person is being suspended by the wire.
Mike

That's a "Molly Hogan" eye splice, not considered to be the best (70% efficient). A good nicro will generate 94% effeciency, a Liverpool eye about 90%

[wizbang 13]

Most of the heavy standing rigging, shrouds and stays, of my big boat (12 ton ketch) are molly hogans with racking seizings.
I have always thought the combo was a good way to go.
Combining a nico press with a molly hogan does not make sense to me.
That said, I assume we are mostly speaking of 7x7 or 7 x19 here, not 1x 19

[Full Tilt]

That's a "Molly Hogan" eye splice, not considered to be the best (70% efficient). A good nicro will generate 94% effeciency, a Liverpool eye about 90%

Thanks for giving a name to the splice I describe. A 'Molly Hogan', how quaint. The point of my post was that in ADDITION to the 'Molly Hogan", a Nicro fitting can be used to secure the tail. Belt and suspenders. How does that effect the 94% strength rating of a Nicro press collar? 94%+70%=?
Mike

[wizbang 13]

As time goes by , a nico press will develope a "hard spot" right at the edge of the fitting. The hard spot is where the failure will happen.
Combining a molly hogan with a racking seizing , is marrying 2 "soft systems.
Combining a molly hogan with a nico press is a soft with a hard. The failure will be at the hard spot.
That said, as usuall, my whole rig is soft, not marconi.

[Full Tilt]

[QUOTE=wizbang 13;3339130]As time goes by , a nico press will develope a "hard spot" right at the edge of the fitting. The hard spot is where the failure will happen.
I have often wondered whether it is preferrable to crimp the Nico press once in the middle or twice, once at both ends of the fitting. Seems to me, once in the middle would avoid the 'hard spot' right at the edge.
Mike

[wizbang 13]

I think, One crimps it in the middle first , then crimps the ends, working outwards. Does one use two fittins? I dunno.
Due to stubborness, I have not used nicro press, ( or norsemen ect) for 3 decades.

[Tom Lathrop]

My daysailer has three stainless wire stays for the mast with eyes formed around thimbles and copper or bronze pressed sleeves. I assume they are as old as the boat (1976), and I assume the boat was used only occassionally, probably in salt water.

How long can they be expected to last and when should I consider replacing the wire rigging? This is a very simple rig on a Drascombe day boat.

Thanks,

Brian

Can't say. Made a lot of them but none ever failed so I don't know how long they will last.

[John E Hardiman]

Thanks for giving a name to the splice I describe. A 'Molly Hogan', how quaint. The point of my post was that in ADDITION to the 'Molly Hogan", a Nicro fitting can be used to secure the tail. Belt and suspenders. How does that effect the 94% strength rating of a Nicro press collar? 94%+70%=?
Mike

The problem with a Molly is that by splitting the wires, you can never get the all the individual wires to be effective again, lowering the overall breaking strength of the eye. A wire rope is streched and twisted (and for 1 by "x" stuff passed through a die) while being formed. This pre-streches all the individual wires to the same length so that that all share the load. In a Molly splice, when you un-lay then re-lay the wire, you get two different real lengths of wire in the eye. This means that the load will only be taken by the shorter set, the longer set will never see any load until the other half fail (and an eye is always rated lower than the wire because of the bend radius, up to 50% less for a soft eye). This is why they are rated less than a true splice or a nicro where the rope is intact in the eye. The Liverpool rates lower than a nicro for the same reason, you can never be sure that all the indivdual strands take up the load. In the nicro-press you have to worry that you are holding all the strands. You only use a nicro-press on "solid" wire rope, never on wire ropes with a fiber core.

[Full Tilt]

The problem with a Molly is that by splitting the wires, you can never get the all the individual wires to be effective again, lowering the overall breaking strength of the eye. A wire rope is streched and twisted (and for 1 by "x" stuff passed through a die) while being formed. This pre-streches all the individual wires to the same length so that that all share the load. In a Molly splice, when you un-lay then re-lay the wire, you get two different real lengths of wire in the eye. This means that the load will only be taken by the shorter set, the longer set will never see any load until the other half fail (and an eye is always rated lower than the wire because of the bend radius, up to 50% less for a soft eye). This is why they are rated less than a true splice or a nicro where the rope is intact in the eye. The Liverpool rates lower than a nicro for the same reason, you can never be sure that all the indivdual strands take up the load. In the nicro-press you have to worry that you are holding all the strands. You only use a nicro-press on "solid" wire rope, never on wire ropes with a fiber core.

Thanks John,
when you explain it like that, I can see how combining a Molly Hogan with a Nicopress fitting would, actually be less strong than either method used separately.
Mike

[Vince Brennan]

In all cases I would stand for the Nicopress (properly applied) in lieu of the finest Molly Hogan ever made. The Molly is (IMO) useful ONLY as a temporary jury rig to get you back to port. Otherwise, do a proper splice (in small stuff, this will make you nutz and is almost impossible to do so as to achieve an even stain on ALL wires) or use the Nico system.

With the Nico system, the strain will be as even as you can achieve, the strength of the swedge should be optimal and, until you see a broken wire OR severe discolouration at the collar, you SHOULD be "good to go" for The Horn.

This is a GREAT way to get a donnybrook going in a sailing pub! MUCH better than the difference between good Manila and Dacron!

[Vince Brennan]

(Thanks, Jim!)

Yes, for Liverpools, the orientation of the splicing vice should be vertical. Just ask Mr. White!