What type of boat would you build for Colorado lakes???

[soudsa]

I would appreciate all feedback from you people here. This is a great forum by the way I have been reading post after post since I found it yesterday. Well to the point...I am a very experienced fiberglass repair guy. I am now done with number 6 project. It was a venture 17 that had been hit by another boat. Anyways the thing is I am a novice at sailing. I did a windrose 18 repaint and several minor repairs thought the boat was just sort of cool so when it was done I tok some sailing classes and then sailed it myself a few times...sold it...got a wrecked venture 17 and started again. I just sold it and decided to make the next project a complete wood build. I am above average in skill, and have more tools than most, now a big empty garage, cash from the venture sale....so,
I wanted relative simplicity so I started looking at the different dory boats. They are very plain and forward as far as the build, but thanks to this forum now I have read a lot of remarks that have me thinking they are more suited for rather experienced sail handlers. They sound bulletproof when rowed but not so under sail.
Colorado is a unique place especially for sailing. The issue of concern for me is "the wind". Colorado is a place where you can go from 5 knots to 20 with a severe change in direction as well in literally a few seconds. So an easy to handle rig, a stable and forgiving boat, and reasonable simple construction, (I just don't wan't to be doing any steam bending on wooden build #1), are I think the qualities I'm after.
Any design feedback will be greatly appreciated.
Also I am taking more sailing classes in about a month and possibly next spring as well. I am giving myself a good year for building since I do have a pretty hectic work schedule through summer. Well again all feedback and design suggestions will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott

[switters]

Hi from Fort Collins,

Where do you plan on sailing and how many people do you plan on taking? Where are you taking the sailing classes? I was thinking about getting in a 1 day refresher class at Union Lake next to Longmont because that is the only place I have heard of on the front range. As far as boat ideas, I went through the same exercise and bought a set of Goat Island Skiff plans. Due to my laziness and the desire to build some smaller practice boats I have not started it yet, so cant tell you how it sails. Let us know a little more about how you are going to use the boat and what type of build style appeals to you and you will get a lot of answers.

[David G]

soudsa,

I learned to sail in a Goat Island Skiff. She's got a doryish hull, and get more stable the more weight you put in her. That first summer there were several times - going out solo in brisk winds - when I added a pair of 70# traction sand bags alongside the daggerboard case. Really made a difference. I called them my 'training wheels'.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/storer/gis/index.htm


Another designer to consider is John Welsford. His boats are not as dead-bang simple as Storer's (not many are), but they are quite nice. Very stable and capable. Simple rigs. You might look particularly at the Houdini or the Navigator.

http://www.duckworksbbs.com/plans/jw/index.htm


If none of the suggestion that come your way tickle your fancy, just holler. There are lots more candidates.

[soudsa]

Victoria is the actual school I plan on going to. I say actual school simply because the lessons before were more like ride alongs. Anyways the designs that appeal to me so far are the dorys, skiffs, sharpies pretty similar to that I suppose. I really don't want to do complex bending on build no.1 . Another thing is and the man from Ft Collins can appreciate this I'm sure...I have a 26' deep two car garage at home and would very much like the boat to fit inside when stored. So a boat that sits reasonably low on a trailer as well (standard 7' garrage door clearance). I will be mostly out at Aurora Res on weekends but we like to take off and run down into New Mexico and down to Navajo occasionally also. The boat will certainly travel all around the west. Simple construction...plywood, or plank just not wanting to over do it with complexity on build no. 1 .

[soudsa]

oh and generally it is just my wife and I with a pug. It seems to be more and more rare that the teenage daughter wants to hang out with parents, but sometimes her and usually a friend so no more than four people.

[switters]

I was hoping David G would be along, he has a lot better advice to offer than I do. Navajo would be a great place for the goat, lots of places to beach and camp at the north end. I used to abuse a sea snark there back in the late 80s. The GIS is 16' and the plans are very complete, perfect for a first time boat builder. They come with a book of instructions, and take a lot of head scratching out of the build process. If you settle on a plan and get started just post and we can help you source materials on the front range also.

Dont get too hung up on finding the perfect boat, find one that appeals to you, and build it. If you decide something a little different would have been better that is not a problem. Once you build your own boat from scratch you will want to build another one anyway.

[soudsa]

the navigator is a pretty boat...thanks for the info and the link

[Garth Jones]

Here is my Ness Yawl (Iain Oughtred design). It would be a more ambitious build than a GIS, I think, but the plans are very complete and Iain's book is extremely helpful. The lug yawl rig is simple to sail and is quite forgiving of sudden changes in wind. I sail on a smallish lake in western Pennsylvania where the wind can shift around dramatically more than once a minute (sometimes). The hull is fast and light, but has quite a bit of ultimate stability - I've never come close to dumping her.

[WI-Tom]

I've sailed in a lot of boats in the past few years, and haven't found one that's better for my purposes (camp cruising one or two people) than Ross Lillistone's Phoenix III. You can see a thread on that design here:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...nnel&highlight=

Google "Bayside Wooden Boats" and you'll find Ross's website with lots more info.

It's a step up in complexity from the GIS for sure, but if you're willing to go to glued lapstrake, this might be my first choice, even for a first build. And like the GIS, the Phoenix III has a simple balance lug rig (as well as a spritail w/jib option that I wouldn't recommend).

Whatever you pick, a standing lug or balance lug is really really simple to handle, and quite gentle in gybes, and very easy to reef quickly. I doubt I'll use any other rig in a small boat.

Tom

[gstanfield]

There are a million good choices out there. Are you after something more "traditional" or would you be open to building with "Stitch and Glue" where you use plywood panels put together with epoxy and fiberglass? The number of plans avaliable are too many to count if you're open to about all building methods!

[soudsa]

I am open to anything really that fits the demands of simple first build and stability. I was just looking at the sailing skiff 15 and the winward 17 on the chesapeeke marine designs page. I do like the traditional "look" but like I said I don't want to get into steam bending just yet. I like the idea of simple sail plan also. I am very much a beginner in sailing and I live in an area where sailing can be tricky. I guess the more traditional the look the better, I am fine with plywood or plank but the plank build would need to be somewhat simple as far as any bends. The other hurtle I have to deal with is Colorado is not a place where marine grade plywood is stocked anywhere. I went to Lowes yesterday and they have good hardwood plywoods that I think would work well. They have no visible signs of voids etc... They are anywhere from 29.00 to 45.00 a sheet but that seems comparible to the "marine grade" plywood I have found on line. The shipping cost is literally about equal to the material cost if I order from a suppier on line. I am not broke but if I got my wood that way I would be.

[soudsa]

That is a very nice looking boat...thanks

[soudsa]

Beautiful boat...I like that one for sure. Thanks

[gstanfield]

Straight Lumber out of Denver stocks marine plywood. I'm in WY and that's where I get mine. It sucks to drive 500 miles round trip but it's the only choice I have. At least you're closer! You're not going to find marine ply at Lowes no matter what state you live in

http://straitlumber.com/

If you're open to S&G building there are some good plans to be had here: http://bateau.com/ Check the sailboat section as well as the "small boat" section. They have a great support forum too which comes in handy when you're building your first boat!

[switters]

gstnfield,

Sears Trostel in Fort Collins carries marine plywood.

[gstanfield]

Cool, that puts me a little closer round trip! Thanks

[WI-Tom]

This is no doubt heretical, but a good hardwood plywood with few to no voids can be used to build a boat--especially a boat that will be trailer sailed and won't live on a mooring. I know this from firsthand experience, not just speculation. There's a nice Baltic birch 5-ply plywood in my local stores that I've used in hulls with no problems--boats that have lasted years.

Mine is minority opinion here, I'd bet, but I think marine ply is not the only answer, and may be expensive overkill in some situations. Now I'll wait for my membership on the forum to be taken away and all records of my existence to be erased!

Tom

[soudsa]

I want to thank you and switters for that info...awesome, you absolutely learn new things everyday. They can ad a shopper to their rolls for sure.

[switters]

This is no doubt heretical, but a good hardwood plywood with few to no voids can be used to build a boat--especially a boat that will be trailer sailed and won't live on a mooring. I know this from firsthand experience, not just speculation. There's a nice Baltic birch 5-ply plywood in my local stores that I've used in hulls with no problems--boats that have lasted years.

Mine is minority opinion here, I'd bet, but I think marine ply is not the only answer, and may be expensive overkill in some situations. Now I'll wait for my membership on the forum to be taken away and all records of my existence to be erased!

Tom

4 boats I have built so far were all ACX, may Lob have mercy on my soul. As long as the plies are the same thickness life is good, just make sure the voids are filled at the open ends, even the smallest ones. I have also used some variation of luaun and it had very thin outer plies, horrible stuff. But the next boat will have over 100 hours of time invested, and at that point the plywood cost is pretty minor compared to the whole.

[JayInOz]

[QUOTE=WI-Tom; the Phoenix III has a simple balance lug rig (as well as a spritail w/jib option that I wouldn't recommend).

Whatever you pick, a standing lug or balance lug is really really simple to handle, and quite gentle in gybes, and very easy to reef quickly. I doubt I'll use any other rig in a small boat.

Tom[/QUOTE]

Tom the plans I'm intending to buy (Doug Hylans Beach Pea) offer the choice of lug rig and spritsail and I was going to go with the sprit. Thought it might be a better choice for me- total novice sailing on lakes with unpredictable winds- would you mind telling me why the lugsail is a better option? I don't want to make a poor choice and be stuck with it. Thanks JayInOz

[soudsa]

Good info to know JayInOz since the other detail of Colorado lakes is the water temp...I don't want to swim back to shore after a good blow.

[WI-Tom]

Jay,

I guess I shouldn't say the lug is "better" than a sprit rig. I've sailed three different boats with spritsails--it's a really good-looking rig, with light spars and a short mast, all of which makes it simple (which I like--just a sheet and a snotter).

What I like more about the lug is how easy it is to reef. I guess you can set a spritsail up for reefing but it's more complicated, because as you shorten sail, the sprit eventually gets too long and hits the foredeck--again, unless you rig up a fancier system that lets the sail slide down the sprit as you reef. Ray Aldridge (Slider guy) has a good system for that, but it's nowhere near as simple to set up as reefing a lugsail.

I also really like how gentle a lugsail is with gybes, and how well it will sail downwind with very little fear of an unexpected gybe, and no serious consequences (probably) if it does happen. It's also easier to drop the sail entirely in an instant--something which saved me from a capsize on a blustery day in cold waters once. No other rig would have allowed me to do that. That feature alone makes it my sail of choice.

Also, my spritsails have always been laced to the mast, which meant I had to unstep the mast to drop the sail. With a lug, just undo the halyard and drop the whole bundle into the cockpit, very handy.

So just overall, the way I've used lugsails has turned out to be far handier than the way I've used spritsails. Some of the disadvantages of the spritsail could be eliminated with a different (but more complicated) set-up. I used to think they looked better than lugs, but now I think the opposite.

Hope that's some explanation--I don't think my list of reasons really captures just how much better lugsails have worked for me in every way. Not everyone agrees. Either way, that Beach Pea is a beauty--enjoy it!

Tom

[James McMullen]

I agree wholeheartedly with Tom about how much better and handier a lug is than a sprit for handling a wide range of conditions. I'm also quite partial to the Phoenix that he mentions, though I think that the Ness Yawl that Garth mentions is even better yet.

[WI-Tom]

I'm also quite partial to the Phoenix that he mentions, though I think that the Ness Yawl that Garth mentions is even better yet.

Ah, but I'm the only one of us who's sailed in both an Oughtred double-ender and a Phoenix III--that makes ME the expert. You'll just have to take my word for it until you can prove otherwise!

Though I guess I wouldn't say "no" if someone offered me a Ness Yawl...

Tom

[James McMullen]

The Phoenix is only 50% as pointy, therefore it loses points. Double-Enders are just plain sexier, I think. Two masts are twice as good for me too. And I have sailed alongside the Phoenix that Dan from Bellingham built at a couple of different Messabouts by now. . . briefly, before pulling steadily away. .

But the Phoenix seems like a very nice little package if you are limited to a smaller boat. Well thought out.

[WI-Tom]

Cool--I didn't know there was a Phoenix III in the PNW. I stand corrected. Of course, to be fair, let's be clear that it was a 19-footer pulling away from a fifteen-footer.

And actually, it's the smaller size I really like. That Ness Yawl is a big boat, as is Rowan--advantages and disadvantages to that. But the Phoenix III IS lapstrake, after all, and a little 15-footer would be all I need as I can rarely convince anyone but my brother to sail with me, and he has his own boat.

Of course, I'm building an 18-footer anyway!

Tom

[James McMullen]

I'll bet you really prefer that larger boat once you start doing bigger trips, Tom. I enjoy nothing more than single handing my big ol' boat. And yet she still seems pretty tiny halfway across Rosario Strait.

[JayInOz]

Ok Lugsail it is! Thank you for the detailed response Tom. And I do appreciate your input Mr Mc. So what's it to be- balanced, standing or dipping? (Hey Scott I'm hoping this stuff might help you out too so I'm not guilty of blatant thread drift/theft ) I ummed and aahed about the extended version of the beach pea, but I'll stick with the 13 footer- it's calling my name JayInOz

[soudsa]

This is all very good. I feel like I am just the listener at the table, every now and again just go get you guys glasses refilled and the information just keeps pouring out. Seriously I am very glad I found this forum and very pleased with all the information. It would be a real drag to do a bang up job building a boat just to figure out it's a death ride for someone with little actual sailing experience on the water. I would much rather have good information from people that know these things going into it. I was honest about my abilities and I think I'm getting good honest responses in regards to the questions. I am greatful for all the answers and some of the links have shown me some beautiful boats...I'm loving it.

[soudsa]

I am gravitating into the length range of 17 to 19 feet just for the comfort factor and stability with two adults and possibly two teenager's in the boat...oh and the pug. Anything over and it is going to be to tight of a fit in the garage...not to mention that much more of a project, and any smaller then it's probably just a bit to small. There are a lot of boats in this size range I've looked at and many of them have lug set ups, or at least the option so this is good.

[hokiefan]

Listening to all of this, I lust after a Ness Yawl more and more.

Cheers,

Bobby

[TerryLL]

At least one boater on Yellowstone Lake drives a Caledonia Yawl, another on Flathead, and soon to be two on Lake Pend Oreille. Comfortable sailing for four adults and a pug. Lug yawls all.

[WI-Tom]

Terry,

who's building Caledonias on Lake Pend Oreille? I'm in Moscow, ID for April and June and that's not too far away to go look at some boats if onlookers are welcome. Is that where you're building?

Tom

[TerryLL]

Terry,

who's building Caledonias on Lake Pend Oreille? I'm in Moscow, ID for April and June and that's not too far away to go look at some boats if onlookers are welcome. Is that where you're building?

Tom

Tom,

I'm one of the builders, and you're more than welcome to check out my efforts. I'll PM my contact info.

[WI-Tom]

Terry,

thanks; I look forward to seeing your boat.

Jay,

as for standing, balance, dipping--well, not dipping! Far too much of a pain to tack with, I suspect.

As for balance vs. standing: I suspect a balance lug has the edge here for a couple of reasons. For one thing, it's self-vanging--that is, the downhaul on the boom won't let the end of the boom lift too much, which keeps the sail from twisting and losing power. For another, the bit of sail forward of the mast is what makes gybing so gentle--it's holding the rest of the sail back a bit. For another, if you had to be on a run for a long time, you could shift the hoisting point of your halyard to put even more sail forward of the mast, coming closer to a square sail shape which would be very downwind friendly. I doubt anyone actually does this much, but I do it sometimes because my halyard is just lashed to my yard so it's easy to adjust.

A standing lug does one thing a balance lug can't--it can go without a boom (but doesn't have to). However, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want a boom, except for maybe a bit less clutter in the boat with one less spar. But a boomless sail requires particular sheeting angles for good performance, which can be tricky.

That said, my new boat has standing lugs for both the main and mizzen. And no boom on the main... (I may add one). A lot of the advantages of the lug rig still apply. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Tom

[JayInOz]

Thank you most sincerely Tom. I'd have thought that the main advantage of no boom is that if it isn't there it can't hit you upside da haid So can we see some pictures of your new boat? Hey Scott I'm learning as much as you here mate- better fill Toms glass again JayInOz

[soudsa]

I am assuming I was correct in the opening statement of this thread with the qualities on the dory designs since nobody even commented on them. Dory with a Lug rig??? Any comments would be appreciated. They seem dead bang simple but like I said I don't really want to go to the trouble of building my own worse nightmare either.
Thanks everyone,
Scott

[TerryLL]

There are a bunch of ex-dory folks here who have in large part moved on to Oughtred douuble-enders. Many of us have built dories from John Gardner's books, so there's lots of collected wisdom on the type.

There's no reason the larger Swampscott dories, especially the Beachcomber, couldn't be rigged as a lug yawl. However, for the same length of boat you'll likely give up significant interior volume in a dory compared to an Oughtred double-ender. The skills, time, and materials required to build a large Swampscott are not significantly different than those needed to build a ply-lap double-ender.

[WI-Tom]

So can we see some pictures of your new boat? Hey Scott I'm learning as much as you here mate- better fill Toms glass again JayInOz

Learn what you can from me, but remember I'm no expert--been sailing small boats for about seven years, with two years of lugsails. Lots of folks here know more than I do. But you can see a few pictures of my new boat in progress on this thread:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ild&highlight=

The build is on hold until higher temps; interior furniture is cut out and mostly fitted but not installed.

Tom

[James McMullen]

Count me in as one of those ex-dory types. I'm also an ex-sharpie guy. I would never again be satisfied to settle for either of those now that I understand my needs better.

[WI-Tom]

I am assuming I was correct in the opening statement of this thread with the qualities on the dory designs since nobody even commented on them. Dory with a Lug rig??? Any comments would be appreciated. They seem dead bang simple but like I said I don't really want to go to the trouble of building my own worse nightmare either.

I don't know dories specifically, but my present boat is a 14' Phil Bolger sharpie--basically a pointy box that was dead cheap and simple to build. While it's nowhere near as capable as the Oughtred boats or others mentioned here, it'd be fine for lake sailing in Colorado. I've done long trips (up to three weeks) in mine on the Texas coast and the Great Lakes. It's no-one's champ, but no one's worst nightmare either.

So don't think you need to go super complicated or even lapstrake or round-bottomed on your first build! You can do a lot in a simple hull. It's not a bad way to begin. I've sailed mine four years now, and am planning a fairly long trip in it again this summer down the Mississippi. I do agree, though, that most who stick with small boats eventually move beyond the flat-bottom type. But really, there's no reason you'd need to on your first boat. And the longer you sail a cheap crude boat, the more you'll appreciate the REAL boat when you finally build it. (That's what I'm hoping, anyway).

Speaking of dead cheap and simple, do you know this website?

http://www.duckworksmagazine.com/

Lots of plans and inexpensive building supplies. Jim Michalak's boats are cheap and simple; his Mixer and Mayfly are as good as these kind of simple box boats get. Lots of Welsford plans, too.

Tom

[soudsa]

See... I start thinking of building a simple banks style dory with a sail rig, thinking start easy, get some opinions, now thanks to everyone here I'm basically intoxicated with all of these different designs being thrown out. I have to say in all honesty however the double enders i.e. caledonia, ness, hell even a design I saw for a whaler type boat, they are very easy to get caught up in just admiring the lines. My wife is already weighing in now (you all got me into trouble), "what happened to the ones you were showing me before, they looked easier, and CHEAPER" it's amazing how she knows far less than me about any of this stuff but she can do a very quick and accurate appraisel in materials cost. I guess I should be greatful, if I didn't have her I would be delinquent on everything. Ok well now I am going to pursue some good reading materials on different construction methods etc... then I think make up my mind on the boat type. I must say however I got exactly what I asked for here. Thanks again to all who replied and Tom I may try and meet you and deffinitely see your boat when I head to Sears Trostel to shop. I already stopped by Strait Lumber about 1 hour ago. The okume is I think the prettiest ply I have ever seen. It isn't cheap however...1/2" sheet 120.00 yousa. It makes me chicken about building anything but a banks dory the first time. My wife will never see a marine ply receipt I promise you that. Anyways thanks again to all for any information. I am going to do some reading and make up my mind. I will be in and out of here constatly bouncing thoughts off of you guys.

Thanks,
Scott

[TerryLL]

The okume is I think the prettiest ply I have ever seen. It isn't cheap however...1/2" sheet 120.00 yousa. It makes me chicken about building anything but a banks dory the first time.
Thanks,
Scott

For the love of pete, please don't even think about a banks dory as a sailing boat. You will be totally disappointed. The Swampscott dory I mentioned above and the banks dory are completely different animals.

Your library should have a copy of John Gardner's The Dory Book. Essential reading if you're thinking about a dory build.

Terry

[gstanfield]

Despite what some people may say, good plywood is not wasted money! I've used cheap plywood and I've used good plywood and the difference in relation to the total cost of the project is fairly minimal percentage wise

[James McMullen]

You couldn't hardly make a worse choice for a sailboat to learn on than a Banks Dory. They suck for experienced sailors too. Something like a GLD would be fine for a first boat if you were to stick to rowing, but you can do vastly better if your goal is to learn how to enjoy sailing.

[soudsa]

ok ok ok the dory is out of my viewfinder...keep in mind like I said 1st time builder so the simplicity is what I appreciated right away. That is why I joined this forum however is to get feedback from those that know. So as I have said I do love the ness yawl and the caledonia, but I am also trying to stay simple again 1st time build and I have know intension of learning curve mistakes with multiple sheets of 120.00 plywood. I have been sort of looking at a 15' sailing skiff at www.cmdboats.com it looks very much doable to me and the goat island 15 as well. After a competent and complete first build I may go to a double ender or something. I am just trying to stay comfortable thats all. I know some of you don't seem to like skiffs or sharpie types any more than dory designs, but with what I am after what about these mentioned designs??? Any feedback is appreciated.
Thanks,
Scott