Going over to the Dark Side

[George Jung]

My daughters PC laptop went 'bye-bye', permanently; we're looking at replacing it (less than 2 yo HP - third one in a year that's gone bad for our family.... I'm seeing a trend). Was looking at a toshiba, but tonight she calls, says she really needs.... a Mac. Art/photography major, looking at grad school. The ones she's looking at require a Mac.... not sure which model, but she 'thinks' she can get by with a 13" screen/2.4 processor. AFA I can tell, they're maybe $1200, give or take.

My question - 1) recommendations on model

2) Where are you getting yours? We usually shop Internet - no apple shops in our part of the country. Bad way to do it?

Thanks.

[Gerarddm]

Our IT guy worships his MacBook Pro Air, or whatever you call it. All I know is that it is the sleekest thing since Brancusi's sculptures. :-)

[Nanoose]

As she's a student, you can get one with an education discount online at the apple store.
I've been living on the dark side since 2008, and my little MacBook hasn't skipped a beat. Into year 4, I feel like I 'should' update it, but then I think why? It's working great, does everything I want it to do....so why?
Yes - with her major she needs a Mac.
Welcome!! (there's a lot more light over here on the 'dark' side :-) )

[MiddleAgesMan]

Try gainsaver.com. They sell refurbished Macs for about what you would expect to pay for a new PC. And that's a bargain.

[elf]

If you get her a 13" MacBook Pro, she will need a 22" monitor to go with it. If you got her a 17"MacBook Pro she would need the monitor just the same. If she tries to do any serious image editing on anything smaller than 22" she will not be very happy. Personally, I can't manage with only 13". It's just too small. I've used 15" for many years now, and prefer a portable because there are plenty of times when I need to carry my computer around, but I don't much like the keyboard on the portables and so I also use an external keyboard with my external monitor.

The two most important things for her are to have something she can carry with her because she will need it in class and to show her work etc., and to have a monitor which she can calibrate with a professional calibration device. She cannot calibrate the portable monitor with a professional device so she'll need an external monitor.

It is not necessary to purchase new, either go to eBay and buy something a little older, or go to the Apple store and by a refurb. Then help her get a good monitor for it.

There is an excellent little application called MacTracker which will tell you everything about every model of Mac ever built so you can compare processor speed and maximum RAM capability, as well as maximum HD size that a model came with. The more RAM the better, the faster the processor the better, but the most of everything is not necessary. Get the most that comes in budget and determine your budget by comparison shopping on eBay.

The Air comes without CD player/burner. She will need to be able to back up her work so she will need to be able to burn DVDs, so I don't think the Air will be real useful to her.

And she will need a small external pocket drive about 1/3 bigger than her hard disk to run Time Machine, which is the automatic backup application which comes with the Mac OS. She will also ultimately need external drivers to back up her master files. She will also need her hard drive to have at least 5x her largest image file size available when processing images. So that means she'll need space for all her paperwork, mail, browsing, music, videos etc, and still have 200G free.

So those are you parameters.

Remember that she will not need to run any anti-virus software, nor spend any time concerned about that. There is still no malware for the Mac OS.

Finally, she will need to budget to purchase two major pieces of software - Office and some or all of Adobe Creative Suite.

[skipper68]

I keep living in HP he!!. Mine arrgh tough, and all the help here keeps them going.. Best part is, I can beat the begeezus outa them, whine here and they work again..Listen to these pro's.

[Ted Hoppe]

i suspect a iPad HD and macbook pro would be the ultimate in computing, educational and social power.

Count on 1200 for the mac, 500 for the Ipad, 3500 for licensed software (other alternatives are available on craig's list). The up side is a total intergration package that marries the best of technology with portability and free readily available computer support via an apple store (genius bars).

[George Jung]

Thanks Ted - about gave me a coronary! Deb, good site - she could get into a 13" 2.4 for $1100. And thanks elf - I had my girl (same name, btw) simply read your post, copy the page - and she's talking with her adviser tomorrow. I went to ebay - here's one of the offerings:

http://www.ebay.com/ctg/Apple-MacBoo...60.c0.m2000114

Going to have to look through these. But lots of options I'd not considered. Do you worry about the 'used' machines, or go with a refurbished??? I notice at least one came with a 3 year warranty from Apple.

skipper - I bought five new HP's in the last two years, and did my homework beforehand; they came 'highly recommended', and have been a disaster - three failures in that time, all just after warranty expired. If you read on HP laptops now, you'll see the latest models have the worst repair records. Timing - it's everything.

Thanks all.

[Arizona Bay]

Try www.lowendmac.com or ebay has some deals too. I prefer refurbished.
I bought this refurbished Imac g4 for 250 2yrs ago, now it's 8 yrs old and still runs fine.
You've been on the dark side and didn't know it

[Ted Hoppe]

If you buy a just under one year old model via a personal party... you can purchase the apple warranty, the previous user often will leave the installed software and you are good to go for three years.

I am serious about the ipad. it is and will be the game changer. A must have as a reader, note taker and social media center (uploading of photos, media and video - will serve as the idea tablet at coffee presentations and team brainstorming). Those who are artistically inclined will be benefit from the evolutionary revolutionary apps that are changing work, art and climbing the social pyramid of a young career. It is the one who is most connected and embracing will do well. In total for her new used school kit... i think 2k is a reasonable amount for such powerful technology tools.

[skipper68]

skipper - I bought five new HP's in the last two years, and did my homework beforehand; they came 'highly recommended', and have been a disaster - three failures in that time, all just after warranty expired. If you read on HP laptops now, you'll see the latest models have the worst repair records. Timing - it's everything.

Thanks all.[/QUOTE]Skipper-me- are all 2003 compaq nx 9010. Bulletproof- I think they have a commercial on how heavy now for an airline. Yes, heavy, yes tough. BUT- they are a 68 Chevy compared to a Yugo.I would replace all the parts (Which I am) so I have a tough PC. I go to the stores and look. My keyboard is 11 years old- the new ones I check are jello.It is a desk top lap top. Quality on parts is important to me. My daughter bought a Toshiba from hell. 4 times it crashed. Maybe its the guts, or the quality-She wants THIS back- NOPE. I bought the same in WiFi. I'm stupid probably, but I want my keyboard to last more than a month. The rest can be replaced. And YES I WHINE all the time. But it's still here... I read on the new HP's- same junk. My friendly forumites help me keep it going.I think it's like 12yrs old. Maybe I'm just lucky. My keyboard keys jump solid new. Go to the HP sight and see if you need to update your soft or hard ware. Got a DVD-CD reading driver your junking?!?

[Arizona Bay]

If you buy a just under one year old model via a personal party... you can purchase the apple warranty, the previous user often will leave the installed software and you are good to go for three years.

I am serious about the ipad. it is and will be the game changer. A must have as a reader, note taker and social media center (uploading of photos, media and video - will serve as the idea tablet at coffee presentations and team brainstorming). Those who are artistically inclined will be benefit from the evolutionary revolutionary apps that are changing work, art and climbing the social pyramid of a young career. It is the one who is most connected and embracing will do well. In total for her new used school kit... i think 2k is a reasonable amount for such powerful technology tools.

Ipads http://www.cowboom.com/Computers/iPads-Tablets-eReaders

[pcford]

A few points...not to start a religious war...but since elf posted...I feel I should parry with a touch of reality. The true believers are hopelessly out of touch and out of date.

First, it is no longer 1990, when "Macs are for creative people and PCs are for business." My video editor and my motion graphics guy both use PCs. Once you get inside a program the experience is largely the same on both....it's the file handling that is different. Also, I dislike the walled garden stance that you have to assume when using Macs.

Furthermore, Apple seems to be shifting its focus from professional users to more profitable consumer gadgetry: Witness the failure of Final Cut X. Also, many 3D programs are not even available on the Mac side.

If you compare a Mac with a $300 PC, then of course the PC will suffer by comparison. You can get a superior machine if one gets a higher end ready-made computer from a company like HP or has one built by a custom builder. Puget Systems is one around here. Their computers are assembled near Seattle, not in a Chinese slave labor camp like Apple's products.

Finally, it's humorous to see the old shibboleth that Macs don't get malware...it just does not comport well with reality:http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...eals_passwords

Don't get me wrong...Macs are wonderful machines; I had to use one once for a class in After Effects. But anyone that tells you that you have to have one to be involved in a creative enterprise is living in a dream world.

By the way...Someone spoke about the expense of the Adobe suites. They are roughly $1700. You can get a educational discount for about 40% of that...also, it's possible to rent the suites on a monthly basis.

[Ted Hoppe]

A few points...not to start a religious war...but since elf posted...I feel I should parry with a touch of reality. The true believers are hopelessly out of touch and out of date.

First, it is no longer 1990, when "Macs are for creative people and PCs are for business." My video editor and my motion graphics guy both use PCs. Once you get inside a program the experience is largely the same on both....it's the file handling that is different. Also, I dislike the walled garden stance that you have to assume when using Macs.

Furthermore, Apple seems to be shifting its focus from professional users to more profitable consumer gadgetry: Witness the failure of Final Cut X. Also, many 3D programs are not even available on the Mac side.

If you compare a Mac with a $300 PC, then of course the PC will suffer by comparison. You can get a superior machine if one gets a higher end ready-made computer from a company like HP or has one built by a custom builder. Puget Systems is one around here. Their computers are assembled near Seattle, not in a Chinese slave labor camp like Apple's products.

Finally, it's humorous to see the old shibboleth that Macs don't get malware...it just does not comport well with reality:http://www.computerworld.com/s/artic...eals_passwords

Don't get me wrong...Macs are wonderful machines; I had to use one once for a class in After Effects. But anyone that tells you that you have to have one to be involved in a creative enterprise is living in a dream world.

By the way...Someone spoke about the expense of the Adobe suites. They are roughly $1700. You can get a educational discount for about 40% of that...also, it's possible to rent the suites on a monthly basis.

No doubt you are right about the adobe software, but if you add Microsoft office 299, possibly a few other must (light box, ect.) haves you are in the realm of 3k. And yes... Apple Final Cut X does what is suppose to do for 300 dollars. Imovie is free - which does more than most factory pc installed video software programs. Whether we like the intergration factor of not, the electronic tools apple makes have historically worked together than without much fuss or IT knowhow. Most artists and everyday people want cross the board convenience on their own simple terms without reading the manual or buying a dummy book.

You and your editors are undoubtedly savvy users. One is hard pressed to find computer support better than apple (your seattle assembly station may be an exception). That is worth much. Given the state of computers and the big box stores that support them... I will take Genius bar over geek squad/best buy centers/you name your store most every day.

Interestlingly enough, a rock solid 15" Puget notebook/laptop is 2050 plus tax. That doesn't include software...

[obscured by clouds]

I am serious about the ipad. it is and will be the game changer. A must have as a reader, note taker and social media center (uploading of photos, media and video - will serve as the idea tablet at coffee presentations and team brainstorming). Those who are artistically inclined will be benefit from the evolutionary revolutionary apps that are changing work, art and climbing the social pyramid of a young career. It is the one who is most connected and embracing will do well. In total for her new used school kit... i think 2k is a reasonable amount for such powerful technology tools.

the Artist David Hockney now uses an ipad to compose his pictures, outside in all weathers and then prints off the results. He has a major exhibition going on at present at the RSA:

http://www.royalacademy.org.uk/exhib...he-exhibition/


a game changer indeed

[Meli]

Um, my kids both have Mac's.
I have a cheap as chips ACER PC.
Mine is 4 years old, theirs are newer.

the kids poo poo mine, cos they have Macs.

Mine has run trusted and true despite only having 32g memory
Theirs have had disc drive fails, power cord fails
batteries gone, general tanties, ... cost me at least $800 in repairs in 3 years.

BUT ...... they are Macs

[Todd D]

I would suggest checking out the college bookstore. If their programs equire an apple product they most likely have worked out a good price to sell apple stuff at the bookstore to students with the full student discounts. When I was teaching I bought all my computer stuff through the bookstore to take advantage of the discounts.

[Captain Intrepid]

Make sure to check the refurbished section of the store as well once you've decided on a model. These are computers that have been sent in because they didn't work, and most likely replaced rather than repaired immediately. They repair them and test them out before selling them. People I know swear they're more reliable than production line models due to the testing they receive. They're cheaper, and because custom orders are sent in for repair, it's not uncommon to receive extra goodies like upgraded RAM at no extra charge. That's just luck of the draw.

I can't recommend a macbook pro highly enough. It's a very well designed, well built piece of machinery. I'll echo the call for an external monitor that can be calibrated, and the 15 inch screen is probably a good idea as well, as much as I love my 13.

http://store.apple.com/us/browse/home/specialdeals/mac

Oh, and if you want to go the extra mile, take out the optical drive and install a flash memory drive in that slot to use for your applications, system files, and as a scratch disc. But that can get pricy.

[Bob Adams]

Aw hell, saw the title and thought you were getting a plastic boat!

[bob winter]

I have bought a few refurbs from the apple store and it has worked for me. Same warranty and you save a few bucks. Shipping is petty fast.

[Dan McCosh]

I've been using Mac laptops for about 20 years, mainly because they used to be supplied by my employer. I'm on the third since I've been freelancing. I use a 13-in., pretty basic model MacBook. I travel a lot, so the small size was important. The Air is the way to go for travel IMO. The salesman talked me down to the cheapest model, pointing out that if I needed a big screen or big hard drive, they were cheap accessories. This was after a PC sales guy had turned a $600 laptop into $1,800 by adding on upgrades he said were essential. Anyway, there are about three stores around here, which where I buy. Service can be an issue, although the Mac system is pretty good. Internet sales sites seem plentiful.

[George Jung]

What I'm noticing on the refurbs is, many of them approach the price she'd pay, as a student, of a new unit.

She gets (I believe) an 80% discount on the Adobe Photoshop CS5. That helps. Which warranty do most get for their Macs? Three year/$350 sounds...... steep.

[pcford]

What I'm noticing on the refurbs is, many of them approach the price she'd pay, as a student, of a new unit.

She gets (I believe) an 80% discount on the Adobe Photoshop CS5. That helps. Which warranty do most get for their Macs? Three year/$350 sounds...... steep.

Doc, she most likely needs the entire CS5 suite not just Photoshop...Adobe has set up their pricing structure to force you to buy the whole thing...but she will likely need more than just Photoshop in any case.

[Paul Pless]

Aw hell, saw the title and thought you were getting a plastic boat!

I thought he was switching to the Democratic party
.

[Wavewacker]

I know very little about computers, but I'm not a bad shopper.

We have a couple stores around here with repair guys. I called and they said to write down what the main purpose and use would be for what I wanted and come talk.

I did that and there were two ways to go, buy one off the shelf or have one built to custom requirements.

If you daughter is anything like the girls in my house, they do like names and labels. It can't be a coat, it has to say Northface on it.


Going down that road can be expensive. I know any Mac is a top of the line box compared to most, so I'd ascertain just what it is about the Mac that makes it so special for her.

I found that for less than a Mac and about the same as most decent boxes, I could have one customized with what I really wanted. For a little less a technician would take a used one, "reconditioned" and change out the processor and drives and still give a custom box. They would build with all new parts or used, depending on what you wanted. It also came with a guarantee as good as the box store stuff.

One guy builds laptops and has cases that were clear plastic and some really rugged cases he uses for commercial builds, like for the utility company. The custom builds go beyound the Northface issue. Something the other kids would Ouuu over, as college is just a step above highschool and the frosh are still kids ya know....

Might impress her if you have one custom built for her needs.

Bottom line, I would go ask some technicians (not sales people) what was really needed, the best and what alternatives there might be to meet of exceed her real needs.

Good luck.....and hey, she is almost gone, right? So do the best ya can....

[George Jung]

Good ideas; thanks. I've a friend in town who is the local 'guru'; after I get the recommendations she's received from her advisor, hopefully I'll know more. Then it's a matter of figuring out options.

As I understand it, many of the grad programs 'require' certain equipment. I may find that their focus on 'designer labels' sets the criteria, don't know if there's wiggle-room on that if that happens. I guess that if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do.

I appreciate all the thoughtful and insightful feedback.

[pcford]

Good ideas; thanks. I've a friend in town who is the local 'guru';

Truth be told, if it is a teaching environment and the authorities say that "artists must have a Mac," there is a good reason to buy a Mac. Not so much for the superiority of the machines, which is pretty much Jobean bs. It just makes learning easier if you do not have to translate command to control and etc. This is certainly a reason to buy a Mac in an educational setting. However, if she can make the jump between the two operating systems...which is not really that hard...you can certainly get a superior machine at less cost by not having to pay the Apple tax.

I would very highly recommend www.pugetsystems.com/ They have a nation wide client base...bright guys that speak English...
I have taken machines to them a couple times to get a repair...when I round up enough money to buy another editing workstation, I will go to them. They are used to building machines for design, editing and other higher end uses.

[Norman Bernstein]

As I understand it, many of the grad programs 'require' certain equipment. I may find that their focus on 'designer labels' sets the criteria, don't know if there's wiggle-room on that if that happens. I guess that if that's what it takes, that's what I'll do.

I agree.. it represents far more of a bias, than a specific and credible technical argument. My older daughter has a BS in marketing, and an MS in advertising, and there is no question that being a Mac person was a requirement set by the school, based on how the school was equipped. You can't take a course in the graduate advertising curriculum at BU without being a Mac person, because the required lab sessions are conducted in a room filled with a sea of Macs.

I think the 'nonpartisans' will agree that, unlike ten years ago, the platform distinction has narrowed substantially... and a lot of professional graphics design is also done using a PC... asometimes Windows, sometimes Linux. The distinctions between the platform hardware has become technically irrelevant, and it becomes a matter of preference and style.

My daughter does make a nice side income as a graphic designer, as well a a portrait and family photographer... and she's got a couple of Macs, including a huge iMac, a slightly older iMac with some sort of motherboard defect that causes it to periodically hiccup, but which isn't ecobnomical to repair, and a Mac laptop, of the nicely brushed aluminum variety. Her investment is Mac hardware has been nosebleeding, compared to PC's of equivalent technical performance... but the cost of the requisite software is yet another important factor; if she had to re-buy all that graphic software, the cost would be prohibitive.

[Nanoose]

The Air comes without CD player/burner. She will need to be able to back up her work so she will need to be able to burn DVDs, so I don't think the Air will be real useful to her.

Finally, she will need to budget to purchase two major pieces of software - Office and some or all of Adobe Creative Suite.

Nay, nay. Rather than "she will need" this should say "what Elf decided SHE needed."

No CD player/burner is a no-go for many, but not because without it she can't back up her work. Time Machine, cloud type services, etc. have this covered.

How on earth do you KNOW she'll need that software?! Office?!!?!?!!! Are you kidding me?!!? Adobe - yes, and most likely her department will give her a student pkg at a discount (as occurred for our son). Office? Seriously? Burn it.

imho....

[Captain Intrepid]

CDs for backup are waaaay out. May as well still be using tape backups! Give me a portable hard drive for large amounts of data, and multiple thumbdrives for small to medium amounts.

[George Jung]

I suspect she'll need an external hard drive (she has one, but it's set up for PC..... *sigh*...), Adobe Photoshop of some sort, and Office - she is still in college, and interesting - it's almost impossible to open most forms/ etc. without. Plus for papers she does for her classes.

My 'local guru' really dislikes Macs. I mean REALLY dislikes them. Feels there's nothing a Mac can do that a PC can't do as well or better; and for much less $$$$. That said, he knows a guy in the neighborhood who felt he needed a mac, but now doesn't - and felt I could pick it up for about halfprice! 17" MacbookPro (lists around $2500), maybe for $1000 or so. Still will need specific software. Less than one year old. It might work out.

[Nicholas Carey]

My daughters PC laptop went 'bye-bye', permanently; we're looking at replacing it (less than 2 yo HP - third one in a year that's gone bad for our family.... I'm seeing a trend). Was looking at a toshiba, but tonight she calls, says she really needs.... a Mac. Art/photography major, looking at grad school. The ones she's looking at require a Mac.... not sure which model, but she 'thinks' she can get by with a 13" screen/2.4 processor. AFA I can tell, they're maybe $1200, give or take.

My question - 1) recommendations on model

2) Where are you getting yours? We usually shop Internet - no apple shops in our part of the country. Bad way to do it?

Thanks.

Apple is updating their web site and store due to today's announcements, so hang on until you know what the current lineup looks like. And don't forget that Apple has a sizeable educational discount. You can get it from Apple, or usually, you can get it from the local Apple retailer at her school (the bookstore?).

If you're going to buy by mail/internet, Small Dog electronics in Vermont is a pretty good dealer: http://www.smalldog.com/ Plus, no sales tax if you're out of state.

If you buy from Apple directly or from an Apple store, you'll get charged sales tax (in Washington State, that's nigh on 10%).

No matter where you buy, the price will be pretty much the same: Apple doesn't allow much dickering on price. A non-Apple retailer may throw in extras, to sweeten the deal.

If you are buy the laptop or other mobile device, spring for the "AppleCare" extended warranty for it. Laptops, iPads/Pods/Phones take a beating and AppleCare will almost certainly pay for itself.

To decide on the model, head over to Apple's web site and look at configurations. It's not like the PC world. You've got 3 basic models to choose from, the Macbook, Macbook Pro and the Macbook Air. And Each model has 2 or 3 versions. Unless I was really on a budget, I'd skip the base Macbook and limit myself to the Pro or the Air. Probably the Pro unless you really want the sleekness of the Air.

Addons.

1. Spring for the biggest hard drive you can get as an option. I'm not sure if I'd go for the solid state flash memory drives, though. It's fairly easy to swap out the hard drive on a Macbook, but it does take some surgery, so get the biggest drive you can.

2. Don't bother amping the memory when your order from Apple. Apple charges too much for memory. Surf over to http://www.crucial.com/ where they'll set you up with, for instance, 16gb (2x8gb sticks) for $240 or 8gb (1x8gb stick) for $120 or 8gb (2x4gb sticks) for $46. Installing/upgrading memory is nearly toolless and takes about 10 minutes, if that.

Get as much memory as your budget can stand (but don't sweat it: it's easy to upgrade later and memory prices are mostly decreasing).

3. Buy a big portable bus-powered hard drive, preferably Firewire 800. Bigger than the drive in the laptop. Or, a line-powered external hard drive that's even bigger. That's your daughters backup system. Configure it as her "Time Machine". Plug it it, turn it on and let OS X back things up. then power it down.

Hope this helps!

[George Jung]

Helps? You'd better believe it! I'm saving the whole thread, and swmbo jr. is following, as well. Just got a call back from her; she's concerned the 17" may be too big for her to haul around - but she hardly ever takes it out of her dorm (and it is, indeed, portable if need be). I don't even know if it's still available, but a less than one year old for less than $1000 sounds like a deal. She's out looking at them now, will let me know. Nice heads up on the potential price changes; but that's for the new I-pod, correct? Will that bring a MacbookPro price down???? The school discount looks like $100 for the smaller Macbooks, $200 for the top of the line. Am I missing something? I don't know that her bookstore carries Apple - they (as a school) push HP pretty hard. I'll check.

Any and all advice gladly accepted. Thanks to all.

[elf]

17" is quite heavy and I, personally, think it's too much to carry around.

[elf]

I suspect she'll need an external hard drive (she has one, but it's set up for PC..... *sigh*...), Adobe Photoshop of some sort, and Office - she is still in college, and interesting - it's almost impossible to open most forms/ etc. without. Plus for papers she does for her classes.

Hard drives can work on any computer. Once she's cleared the stuff off her external drive on the PC she can just move it over to the Mac. She will want to use the Disk Utility application that comes with her Mac OS to reformat it. Except - USB is really slow and if all the external drive has is USB I suggest you use it as her Time Machine drive and get her a decent Firewire 800 drive for her external. Now, let me give you a piece of advice about where to get her external drive.

Glyph. 3 year warranty and here's the clincher - Glyph will pay for data recovery as well as replacing a defective drive for 3 years. Glyph drives are used in high end music and video recording studios. They actually survive.

Your other choice is OtherWorld Computing, but they do not pay for data recovery.

My 'local guru' really dislikes Macs. I mean REALLY dislikes them. Feels there's nothing a Mac can do that a PC can't do as well or better; and for much less $$$$. That said, he knows a guy in the neighborhood who felt he needed a mac, but now doesn't - and felt I could pick it up for about halfprice! 17" MacbookPro (lists around $2500), maybe for $1000 or so. Still will need specific software. Less than one year old. It might work out.

Sounds good, especially because in general if someone begins helping a new Mac user who REALLY doesn't like Macs, the new Mac user is not going to get a very good start.

And with the 17", if you go that way, she will still need the external monitor and her Mac should still have its RAM maxed out and don't pay someone to install it. You have to be brain dead to not be able to install RAM on a portable Mac. The instructions come in the manual.

OtherWorld Computing is also highly regarded for RAM prices.

[elf]

There is only one word processor left in the world - Microsloth Word. She will have to have Office. She must be able to pass documents of all types to all platforms, and she must be able to pass documents to PC users who cannot figure out how to download Adobe Reader. Although a PDF is the cross platform document format most widely used, sooner or later someone will send her, or expect to receive from her, a Word document. At that point she must be able to create one and open one sent to her.

[George Jung]

Thanks, elf. Very much appreciated.

BTW, do you take on 'apprentice photographers'?

[Paul Pless]

Although a PDF is the cross platform document format most widely used, sooner or later someone will send her, or expect to receive from her, a Word document.

I hates it when people try to get all cute and send me a pdf document to work with rather than a Word document.

[elf]

How on earth do you KNOW she'll need that software?! Office?!!?!?!!! Are you kidding me?!!?

She's in school. Apple still only has 10-12% of the computing platform out there in the stupid world of business. She must be able to do business in Microsloth's dominating world. She will need Word and Excel at least.

George, whatever you hear from the local Mac places, don't bother with iWork (Apple's attempt to compete with Microsloth Office). Just get Office and be done with it.

[elf]

Thanks, elf. Very much appreciated.

BTW, do you take on 'apprentice photographers'?

That's her school's job! But sure, if she were here I'd be happy to help her get properly set up with her Mac and photography workflow.

For a fee...

[elf]

The newest iPad is coming out tonight. There is a recent update of the iOS as well. Apple is working very hard to move as many gullible people as possible into the convenience and portability of its Pad. This is actually a very smart move, because, in reality most people do not need a desktop or laptop computer. 60% of the people saddled with PCs don't do anything more than email, browse the web, shop online, download their photos and share them around among their friends. It's rare those folks even write a letter, much less manage a 3 dimension spreadsheet, or write a book or paper with footnotes and references and all that stuff. Hell, it's rare I write a letter, since I do nearly everything by email at this point.

But your daughter is not one of those. She needs to be able to process still images, build presentations, edit moving images, write term papers, and who knows what else eventually.

For that reason she needs a computer. And my personal opinion is that she needs one which does not require that she be a serious tech geek.

Sales of PC platform computers have dropped precipitously this year, and I suspect sales of Mac computers will do the same. Because the iPad and similar, but mostly the iPad, type products are filling the basic needs of most computer users.

And, of course, if there's some application she needs to run that absolutely cannot be run on a Mac running the Mac OS, she can learn to install Windoze on her Mac and to switch over and run the application on the Mac under Windoze. Just last year I met a guy with a 17" MacBook Pro and he never ran the Mac OS on it at all - he ran Windoze on it. Two years ago someone did speed tests on a MacBook Pro and found that it ran Windoze 7 faster than similar PCs.

[Nicholas Carey]

I don't know. The only times I've had issues interoperating with MS Word and Pages is if somebody actually uses MS Word the way it was designed and exploit something more complex than simple paragraph styles. Fonts are sometimes an issue, as Word and Windows have a notoriously crappy selection. And Word's defaults leave, shall we say, something to be desired.

Either way, MS Office for OS X, the academic version runs $85-95. They had to drop the price to compete with Pages, Numbers and Keynote (far better than Powerpoint, BTW).

If your daughter needs something like Visio, she should check out OmniGraffle: http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraffle/ which puts Visio to shame. And for data plotting/charting, Omni Graph Sketcher, http://www.omnigroup.com/products/omnigraphsketcher/

[George Jung]

Well, I took the leap. She needed a computer 'now', didn't like the 17", so... MacbookPro 13" it is. She'll get the mac version Adobe and Office, see how it shakes out. Fastest sale that young lady has had in awhile (at the Mac Shop). Had to laugh.... she didn't seem to know what to make of me! Had about a 1 minute conversation to sale.....

But it'll be up to swmbo jr. to follow this thread/recommendations, and hopefully she can figure out what else she needs. Thanks all.

[Nicholas Carey]

I hates it when people try to get all cute and send me a pdf document to work with rather than a Word document.

I only send word processing files if the recipient is expected to modify it. PDFs or plain text are my default format. Looks right, prints right. Nothing worse thansending somebody something that matters and having them whine becuase tjey're word processor chewed it up and spit out a masticated mess.

[Nanoose]

Sorry. I will dissent over the Office recommendations.
Many programs import/edit/export word docs.
She's not in finance; Excel won't be needed and Numbers, or any one of multiple other available apps, will be more than adequate.

[George Jung]

Forgot to ask - even though it is a Mac, and therefore highly resistant, do you still recommend an anti-viral program???

[Nicholas Carey]

Forgot to ask - even though it is a Mac, and therefore highly resistant, do you still recommend an anti-viral program???

No. Our Macs have hanging out on the public internet for years, with no anti-virus software whatsoever. And no problems. That's pretty much the normal experience.

There's really no viruses that hit OS X in the wild, though there are a few proof of concept virii that people have demo'd.

There are a few Trojan horses out there, though. But anti-virus stuff dowsn't really innoculate against human foolishness. Don't go surfing pr*n sites and installing the video codes that offer to install, or double-clicking on things that arrive in email spam and you should be good.

And, anything that wants to install itself will prompt you for credentials so the installer can su itself as root.

If your feeling paranoid, create two separate logins, on as a normal user without admin privileges, and the other with admin privileges. Don't login as the admin user unless you actually need to do admin sort of work. "Run with the minimalermissions that will get the job done" is a "best practice" that, sadly, two many people don't observe.

[Nicholas Carey]

Sorry. I will dissent over the Office recommendations.
Many programs import/edit/export word docs.
She's not in finance; Excel won't be needed and Numbers, or any one of multiple other available apps, will be more than adequate.

I'm not recommending Office by any stretch. I don't approve of the cr&p that MS Office installs, system extensions out the wazoo, including the MS Office VB macro language (thus offering another vector for security problems).

I find the iWork suite more than adequate for probably 90% of what almost anybody — in academia or business — would want to do with a word processor or spreadsheet.

[elf]

Common sense is the anti-virus protection which works best on the Mac. Make sure all downloads are set to go to the Desktop and not into the Download Folder. Set the Preferences to not permit automatic installation of anything downloaded. Unstuff and install each thing yourself. Keep your computer up to date with the Mac updates. Be conscious of what you're doing and avoid anything that looks juvenile, fishy or phishy. Never follow a link to a PayPal, eBay, credit card or bank page from the email, always go to the company's page and look for the warning or change there.

Tell your daughter to get together with a good Mac tech and go through all the Preferences for her Mac and each of her applications, thinking about how she wishes to set each one, and taking note of where they are so if she changes her mind she knows where to go find them. The System has its own Preferences which can be gotten at through the Apple menu in the upper left corner of the screen. The Finder then has its, which can be gotten through the Finder item on the Menu bar, each application has its own Preferences which can also be gotten through that application's menu item in the menu bar. Always look at the Prefs before beginning to use the application.

[BBSebens]

2 years ago, our Vaio was giving us problems. We had purchased a Mac Mini off of Ebay and really loved it. So we sprung for a 13" Macbook Pro. It was about $1200, and worth every penny. Im typing this out on it right now. In 2 years it has never skipped a beat even once. BTW, 13" is plenty of screen for the majority of work. However, serious work can require serious horsepower.

We now have an all Apple home. Mac Mini, Macbook Pro, 2 iPhone4's, and 2 Apple TV's (also very useful). I'll be shocked if Microsoft can catch up.

Apple just works.