Farne Islander - Cape Cutter - Cape Henry

[Sayla]

Two adults and two primary school children for overnight trips in bay conditions (large bay for the more seaworthy) - opinions please?

[StevenBauer]

You'd be fine now but soon they'll be in High School. Not only will they be bigger, they will each want to bring a friend.

I've been on board Norm Messenger's Prairie Islander. The interior was spartan but roomy for a 20' boat. Talisman is just a little bigger at 24' but when Mary and I take our weeklong cruise it is just the two of us.


Steven

[Sayla]

You'd be fine now but soon they'll be in High School. Not only will they be bigger, they will each want to bring a friend.
Steven

It's the 'soon' thing that's the issue - my wife kinda wants to be using it yesterday, which I think kinda rules out a Cape Henry- it requires a bigger car, bigger trailer, bigger job to make it, more money all round, but still not big enough to last indefinitely - my big boat project that I have on the burner will be many many years away, so "now" is the operative word for these kids. My younger boys are 6 and 8, so I figure they'll get to use it between the ages of 8 & 12 (?two yr project), have some adventure, and learn the ropes so to speak. So, I suppose I'm really comparing a Cape Cutter with a Farne Islander and the various attributes of them.

Cape Cutter or Farne Islander?

I've been on board Norm Messenger's Prairie Islander.
Steven

I've never been on one - what did you think?

-------------------------------------------------------------

I also wonder if Haiku would be a good contender - longer boat of course - maybe more expensive but I would think not 50% more - still a reasonable tow weight


sayla

[StevenBauer]

I liked it. It's a good size, not too big, not too small. I didn't get to sail on her, we just motored around WoodenBoat's anchorage.

Haiku would be roomier and maybe a faster build.

Steven

[Sayla]

Would Haiku be not more expensive?

At the moment I'm still stuck where I was ages ago. No one around here owns any of these boats, so it's a cyber-decision - I have study plans for CC19 so I can guess the size there, I can scale the Haiku lines shown on the web, so I can guess that somewhat, but I find the FI more difficult with no sectional lines anywhere.

They all look good to me, so for me it's down to roomsciousness and seaworthiness - would Haiku be much more limited in waters than Farne Islander, or Farne Islander than Cape Cutter?

sayla

[keyhavenpotterer]

There was a Farne Islander for sale in the UK recently (now sold), if click on this link you can mooch around the photos to see how it looks. Had room for an inboard too.

http://it.yachtworld.com/core/listin...url=&imc=pg-fs

Its more a matter of preferred/ familiar construction method, but if you've got space to build, moor or store it, I think a man with a Festool track saw, West scarfer and a flush cut router, could make quick progress on Haiku. Beyond looks, efficiency of construction in materials and time is that (type) of boats enduring qualities. Lots of people would want a go too.

After snorkelling/ diving a fair bit, I've often thought that a 1ft draft would allow you to just carefully edge over a coral reef at high tide if you had too, and couldn't find or missed the entrance channel. I know thats not good boat or environmental practice, but it would be a design advantage and a safety feature. The coral is a living moving thing, but grows to low tide surface height, so a Haiku could have its advantages there, edging over into the lagoon pool at high tide. I can't speak for Haiku, its motion comfort or how it feels but the NIS sharpie's have shown surprisingly high angle of vanishing stability. Are you lucky enough to have coral island reefs nearby on your Sunshine coast? Or is that miles away?

The Dix cutters are quick boats, there's been a few go 'round the island race' locally and have won their class if I remember (modern gaffer class).

[keyhavenpotterer]

I'd also take a long look at John Welsford's Penguin, as she has a seperate forward cabin from the saloon (and two quarter berths) so you can get overnight privacy from your children (especially teenagers) unlike the four berths arranged around one saloon/ room with the Farne and Dix cutters. She also has a close off'able toilet, so that girls can go in private, even if someone is in the saloon. That could make a mighty big difference, to whether you have regular mixed sex crew or not, beyond the first time out. Best cruising interior in a 20ft shallow draft centreboarder boat by a distance. The yawl rig will help reduce stress too if you need to keep her head to wind, while you organise things for your 'crew' at anchor or when reefing, as your crew or school friends are likely to be inexperienced, and are really there for the sun. Penguin would be my choice to generate collective family happy experiences, if i was over nighting regularly with four aboard (especially a mixed sex crew), where a happy weekend cruise/ snorkel etc were the objective and the boat had to not get in the way, 'coz she'd designed around the interior from a cruisers perspective, not an interior put into a gaffer, if that makes sense

[Sayla]

The Penguin seems to have plenty of room, though divided, but more windage and (not that I've been in one) the cockpit seems somehow a bit smaller than the others. The lines have never grabbed me as much as the others as well, and while that's a silly excuse, it seems strangely important to my energy for it.



After staring and comparing (for a long time) I was absolutely set on making a Farne Islander (maybe even a little stretched), as I saw the Cape Cutter being small internally, and the Cape Henry a bit big externally and ?somehow one too few strakes - and I am still really taken by the Farne Islander design, looks, size weight and concept.



But then I saw this Cape Henry ---- and now I think it is not only perhaps more capable, but the same weight as the Farne Islander - it's certainly as big internally and the style is very pleasing indeed - and, it's now my wife's preference but she wants it topsides black, just like that, so I might need to use G-flex or something (?resourcinol - I wonder if it's possible)



sayla

[keyhavenpotterer]

Thats the Dudley Dix Cape Henry that was built in UK Watercraft magazine if you havn't seen it. It has a few owner modifications like wider cockpit coamings to sit on. The final sailing pictures are in Watercraft 80 Mar/ April 2010 if you don't have it. The build series is in W47, W48, W50, W54,W56, W60, W64, W67 and W71.

You can also use Dix's CAD files to buy a kit Cape Henry if you need it pronto. £2702 from Jordan Boats in the UK. Might be able to organise cutting in Aus?

http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/price_list.htm



Re-checked the Round Island Race Results and the Cape Cutter Sea Badger won the modern gaffer event past 3 years. Obviously depends who's sailing it and how its rigged and built, but its an indication that the Dix boats can go well.



Ed

[Sayla]

There was a Farne Islander for sale in the UK recently (now sold), if click on this link you can mooch around the photos to see how it looks. Had room for an inboard too.

http://it.yachtworld.com/core/listin...url=&imc=pg-fs

Its more a matter of preferred/ familiar construction method, but if you've got space to build, moor or store it, I think a man with a Festool track saw, West scarfer and a flush cut router, could make quick progress on Haiku. Beyond looks, efficiency of construction in materials and time is that (type) of boats enduring qualities. Lots of people would want a go too.

After snorkelling/ diving a fair bit, I've often thought that a 1ft draft would allow you to just carefully edge over a coral reef at high tide if you had too, and couldn't find or missed the entrance channel. I know thats not good boat or environmental practice, but it would be a design advantage and a safety feature. The coral is a living moving thing, but grows to low tide surface height, so a Haiku could have its advantages there, edging over into the lagoon pool at high tide. I can't speak for Haiku, its motion comfort or how it feels but the NIS sharpie's have shown surprisingly high angle of vanishing stability. Are you lucky enough to have coral island reefs nearby on your Sunshine coast? Or is that miles away?

The Dix cutters are quick boats, there's been a few go 'round the island race' locally and have won their class if I remember (modern gaffer class).

Just reading back through this thread - and saw I didn't read your post properly (maybe after edit) - we don't have surface coral reefs (lagoon crowns etc) nearby, but we do have them a half day drive away, and I know what you mean - did a lot of dinghy / reef edge snorkeling in younger years - right here we have lots of sandy islands and straits (there's actually an area near here called the 'Sandy Straits'), so small draft is just as useful - however, to get to some of these places (coral in particular) one must cross fairly open water - and so lies the compromise - The Cape Henry 21 appears like it could handle a bit of weather, and comes with figures, and at 1'7" draft it's fairly shallow capable, and a likely no dinghy boat (maybe just a small flat ski stowed, or some waders/reef shoes or something). Haiku looks great, but how would seaworthiness compare - does anyone know yet?

sayla

[skaraborgcraft]

Sea worthiness in comparison to each other? Normally the bigger boat will be more secure,but theres so much more than just that. I do like outside ballast. Im sure with the board up or down and running down weather Haiku,would be just fine. Large breaking waves could have either of these boats over if handled wrong,just like any other boat,but i would expect the Henry to be more likely to recover itself. Maybe having the board up and using the shallow draught has an advantage...no keel to trip the boat over. No easy answer to your question. How good is your seamanship,and which boat would you prefer to handle if you got caught out??
Cant you find a cheap Hartley TS21 for the time being? Will do the same job......you could build from scratch too. Cheers

[Sayla]

No easy answer to your question. How good is your seamanship,and which boat would you prefer to handle if you got caught out??

That's a hard one - I would think the Henry, but it's an educated statistical type guess........ I don't actually know........the Cptn Munro had a high reputation with the sharpie, but is Haiku the same? Re: Outside ballast - how do you think Wenda or like ilk would compare?

sayla

[skaraborgcraft]

Munroe did things in Egret that a lot of "normal" people would not. A good boat can look after non skilled crew only so much, but a crap sea boat can survive much if the crew know what they are doing. RE Wenda, do you mean the Albert Strange canoe yawl? I wouldnt hesitate to take that Wenda any place i have not been already.
Haiku is not egret,though they share similar lines,she may even be a better boat,but it would take another skilled and expereiced person like Munroe to put her through her paces......but bear in mind the purpose she was designed for first and foremost. Theres a good plan for an egret style "lifeboat sharpie" in simplified boatbuilding by Sucher, which in my eyes is a better looking boat than Haiku, and you could if you wished, change the centreboard over to twin boards,which is the only feature of Haiku i really like, i just find she dosnt look quite right from most angles,but thats just my opinion. You could certainly build the modified lifeboat sharpie to suit your own needs with regards to cabin/cockpit space. At the end of the day, you dont really want to find yourself with your family in a boat totally unsuited to the conditions you may find yourself in,which leads to two options in my logic.....build the lightweight sharpie for good value and performance and choose your sailing weather carefully with regards to what may happen in the next 24-48 hours......or....... you build something with positive righting ability with the full crew and stores,which will be far more expensive to build and may even give you a false sense of security.
I like JW penguin on the accomodation it provides on a short lentgh,it is a small cockpit and the saloon would be tight for 4 too,but its all compromise. Is sail performance is your key issue? There was also a egret style sharpie for plywood in Reul Parkers book.
Impossable for another man to tell what kind of boat he should have when his family is at stake,suffice to say it is you that should have confidence in the boat your are sailing,and the conditions you find yourself in. Sharpies can take an awfull amount of weather if handeled correctly,but you should never be too far from a safe haven with rotten weather forcast when you have your family onboard.
Do you need full plans and guidance or can you work from off-sets only? Cheers

[Sayla]

Munroe did things in Egret that a lot of "normal" people would not. A good boat can look after non skilled crew only so much, but a crap sea boat can survive much if the crew know what they are doing. RE Wenda, do you mean the Albert Strange canoe yawl? I wouldnt hesitate to take that Wenda any place i have not been already.
Haiku is not egret,though they share similar lines,she may even be a better boat,but it would take another skilled and expereiced person like Munroe to put her through her paces......but bear in mind the purpose she was designed for first and foremost. Theres a good plan for an egret style "lifeboat sharpie" in simplified boatbuilding by Sucher, which in my eyes is a better looking boat than Haiku, and you could if you wished, change the centreboard over to twin boards,which is the only feature of Haiku i really like, i just find she dosnt look quite right from most angles,but thats just my opinion. You could certainly build the modified lifeboat sharpie to suit your own needs with regards to cabin/cockpit space. At the end of the day, you dont really want to find yourself with your family in a boat totally unsuited to the conditions you may find yourself in,which leads to two options in my logic.....build the lightweight sharpie for good value and performance and choose your sailing weather carefully with regards to what may happen in the next 24-48 hours......or....... you build something with positive righting ability with the full crew and stores,which will be far more expensive to build and may even give you a false sense of security.
I like JW penguin on the accomodation it provides on a short lentgh,it is a small cockpit and the saloon would be tight for 4 too,but its all compromise. Is sail performance is your key issue? There was also a egret style sharpie for plywood in Reul Parkers book.
Impossable for another man to tell what kind of boat he should have when his family is at stake,suffice to say it is you that should have confidence in the boat your are sailing,and the conditions you find yourself in. Sharpies can take an awfull amount of weather if handeled correctly,but you should never be too far from a safe haven with rotten weather forcast when you have your family onboard.
Do you need full plans and guidance or can you work from off-sets only? Cheers

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Yes, Albert Strange's Wenda - another I've pondered over is Albert Strange's Otter (7.5' Beam, bit more roomy) - it interests me that you see Wenda as being very seaworthy




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I have Reuel Parker's books, but the ones I've looked at seemed to lack sufficient space - sailing performance isn't the whole key for me, but I still don't want a slow boat - I've been on slower boats and found them uncomfortable as well as riskily exposed to weather from being too long in the open.
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I don't need much in the way of plans - lines and a sail plan approximation is about it - I've also been drawing a boat of style and size that lies between Nigel Iren's Romilly and Roxanne, but while I don't need much to build from, I would have a harder time trusting my own lines with sails - nevertheless, I love the idea of a sail-less cockpit aka Roxanne, but worry about handling a main sail at the bow (never done it before)

sayla

[johnno]

Sayla, I didn't notice you were so close to me until I picked up the Sandy Straits reference. The general consensus on sharpies and accommodations is that they basically don't have any, until you get very big. And even if you have a look at Reul's latest sharpie he built for himself (45' schooner Ibis), the accommodations don't look too sweet to me. They sit so high above the deck. Sharpies are just shallow, which of course is there great advantage in other ways.

Look forward to seeing what you end up choosing.

I'm planning on some extended overnighters (up to a fortnight) in my 20 foot sharpie, but that's up the straits and my wife and I will camp onshore. In the end, it's just easier, roomier, drier, and after a day on the boat, it makes a nice change to sit on the beach with a beer and watch the sunset.

Years ago I owned a raised deck fg sloop, a Hood 23 with a fixed keel. That was a beautiful boat for overnighters all over Moreton Bay. it didn't have headroom, but the raised deck (flush deck) meant it had both an incredibly roomy cockpit and a very roomy interior. I'd say it was incredibly similar to the Cape Henry you posted above in that regard. I bought it from a guy who'd been cruising the Barrier Reef for two years with wife and one or two kids (can't remember exactly how many). I often overnighted at Moreton or Stradbroke with four adults on board.

In our climate, it was the big cockpit which was the advantage here. There was stacks of space for four to spend the day in comfort there without being jammed together, we'd set up a table and have breakfast, lunches, and dinners there, and with a big simple boom-supported canvas awning, there was terrific shade when moored somewhere all day long.

[Sayla]

Sayla, I didn't notice you were so close to me until I picked up the Sandy Straits reference. The general consensus on sharpies and accommodations is that they basically don't have any, until you get very big. And even if you have a look at Reul's latest sharpie he built for himself (45' schooner Ibis), the accommodations don't look too sweet to me. They sit so high above the deck. Sharpies are just shallow, which of course is there great advantage in other ways.

Look forward to seeing what you end up choosing.

I'm planning on some extended overnighters (up to a fortnight) in my 20 foot sharpie, but that's up the straits and my wife and I will camp onshore. In the end, it's just easier, roomier, drier, and after a day on the boat, it makes a nice change to sit on the beach with a beer and watch the sunset.

Years ago I owned a raised deck fg sloop, a Hood 23 with a fixed keel. That was a beautiful boat for overnighters all over Moreton Bay. it didn't have headroom, but the raised deck (flush deck) meant it had both an incredibly roomy cockpit and a very roomy interior. I'd say it was incredibly similar to the Cape Henry you posted above in that regard. I bought it from a guy who'd been cruising the Barrier Reef for two years with wife and one or two kids (can't remember exactly how many). I often overnighted at Moreton or Stradbroke with four adults on board.

In our climate, it was the big cockpit which was the advantage here. There was stacks of space for four to spend the day in comfort there without being jammed together, we'd set up a table and have breakfast, lunches, and dinners there, and with a big simple boom-supported canvas awning, there was terrific shade when moored somewhere all day long.

Hi Johnno,
I've been watching your Little Egret build (I was also in a dream seeing that Egret replica photo in Florida, imagining flying over white sands up past Tinnanbar) - you're doing so well with that build (and so neat) in such a time frame - really well done. I know what you mean about the big cockpit - when I think about designs like the AS canoe yawls, pretty as they are, I always imagine the kids sitting around on the deck somewhere, but with the Cape Henry I simply imagine them in the cockpit. As far as the title of this thread goes, the Cape Henry does win out over the CC and F.I. for me, though I remain musing about past dreams like Otter, and new ideas like a smaller Roxanne.

How's the recent weather ......awesome or what - sunrise on Labour Day weekend a couple hours up the beach




sayla

[keyhavenpotterer]

I'd look at it like this...you've got the conundrum many face.

Lets look at Cape Henry type..

Its a great boat from a great designer. It maximises volume for your party, with maximise volume forward, aft, sides and roof height. Its a shallow V, so it'll be Ok in waves, but the price of theat shape is because it gives you volume spread over its beam, the waves will be able to get hold of it and roll you a bit side to side. But when you do get there it will be nice and stiff an anchor when you walk around on it. Also kids and wife will feel safe as it has good freeboard and it won't lean as much in gusts because it has form stability to prevent it healing. This will feel reassuring to novices.

Lets look at Wenda type...

Its long, slim slack bilged and has overhangs. A deeper V hull, it will rock around abit when you walk around on her. Also in a gust it doesn't have the form stability (she's slack bilged) so cope so she'll heel over. This can be a problem with kids and family, as they'll see the sea much closer to them with the rail under, and novices get scared by this. Generally it will make them think its unsafe. But her trump card comes in green rolling waves. The slack bilges with no flat surface sitting on the water means as waves roll by the can't grip the boat and they just roll right under and she'l be less affected that a Cape Henry type. Same with her long overhangs and deep V and double ender, she'll slice through waves. She'll be comfortable in a sea. But when you get there, she has less accomodation over a full ended boat of equivalent length. and she'll tip a bit as people walk around. You can avoid the gusts by reefing early, but that's not always how it is.

The Cape Henry is a very good boat. You really need accomodation when you get there. It'll be more than capable of bay conditions. It will keep wife and kids away from seeing too much water which might get them feeling ressured and happy to go sailing. Which is the only aim with family sailing.

The vertues of a slack bilged, long ended approach in my experience, though supreme in waves, can't explained to a frightened crew if they feel it tip in a gust or see the water over the rail. They won't go out again. You lose their confidence despite it being better in waves. You can't explain the merits of a slack bilge to them...

I'd go with the Cape Henry. The Haiku needs more to be built so people can see the interior space before you commit as a family boat. It would be my choice for an ultra shallow draft with a reef or bar to cross, but the Cape Henry will clear most things.

In case you've not seen it, the Golant Gaffer is worth a look - strip plank - more keel - more classic small gaffer, Gartside has an nice 20ft gaffer but there's not alot of space inside (less than a Cape Henry) and Roger Dongray has designed a 20ft plywood version of his Shrimper as a ketch - the Golant Ketch similar to but a bit smaller than a Cape Henry.

You need space, some free board and form stability for a family boat. The Cape Henry will suit. I can't see that it has any chinks in its armour. They're also fast and come from a recognised naval architect with full patterns I think. Its quite mainstream so it'l be worth a bit finished, so you'll get your money back easy one day. It'll cost you nothing.

You can buy a kit. £2701 from Jordan Boats. Will save a ton of time as its been designed in CAD and so should all fit. I'd take this approach unless your wife is happy when your in the garage, to save potential marital strife and a year less to build it. The Cape Henry has alot of sail area, they're fast boats disguised as something tradtional. It won't be slow or unresponsive.



http://jordanboats.co.uk/JB/price_list.htm



4:43 in it shows the interior room briefly.

Looking at her figures, she's not overly beamy and quite V'd in the garboard. She'll be fine in some waves creaming along. That V makes her rock just slightly as he walks around till the chine submerges. Better than a flat bottom in waves.

ed

[skaraborgcraft]

Strange design Otter and Phsyce (sp?) are on my dream list.....after i saw Wenda, a bit more roomy. Both are more weight in a boat that i need for the sailing i do these days,but i wouldnt have hesitated to go offshore in any of the Strange boats mentioned, all of them have sufficient ballast to right from a knockdown,and if handled in the right way,would look after you,and they look fantastic.
Its sounding like the Henry really is the best compromise between cockpit/cabin space, weight(cost) and sail performance. I dont think you would be dissapointed,and if the missus likes it,then you are quids in!
Those small restrictive cockpits are fine for Northern hemisphere sailing,well protected, with more space given over for cabin as the weather generally can put a dampner on al-fresco cockpit dining.
I would still throw a Hartley TS21 as a competitor, choice of keels, big cockpit and rig size....an adaptaple boat if you can live with the hull shape. Cheers

[johnno]

I have a good friend with an Otter up at Cootharaba. Lovely boat. You'll have to come for a sail on mine when she's finished. Even better, bring your (fill in chosen design here) when she's built. I'm organising an inaugural raid up along the Fraser Is western coast, starting with an exploratory run this spring but planned for Easter next year, and annually thereafter...think you can make it (in something)?

And yes, this weather...as it used to be before these last couple of years of rain set in....wonderful!

[Sayla]

I have a good friend with an Otter up at Cootharaba. Lovely boat. You'll have to come for a sail on mine when she's finished. Even better, bring your (fill in chosen design here) when she's built. I'm organising an inaugural raid up along the Fraser Is western coast, starting with an exploratory run this spring but planned for Easter next year, and annually thereafter...think you can make it (in something)?

And yes, this weather...as it used to be before these last couple of years of rain set in....wonderful!

Really, an Albert Strange Otter?
And thanks, I'd love a sail on your Little Egret
Re the raid, currently I have this Mirror (Magnolia) against the wall, and almost this Acorn (Booty) - I'm starting a Navigator (?Scurvy Rascal), my pick for a raid, but as much as I'd like, I'm sure that one won't be ready for Spring - the (insert ?Cape Henry) is planned for after that. My 8yo son and I could do spring in one of those smaller boats - perhaps next year in the Navigator.



sayla

[johnno]

Woops, didn't read the thread well enough I think...no it's a Bolger Otter. Boy you sure have some building plans...I'd better make sure I don't pay attention or I might get the building bug well and proper! The navigator would be perfect for the raid, you're right...might become the mother ship!

[Sayla]

I'd look at it like this...you've got the conundrum many face.

Lets look at Cape Henry type..

Its a great boat from a great designer. It maximises volume for your party, with maximise volume forward, aft, sides and roof height. Its a shallow V, so it'll be Ok in waves, but the price of theat shape is because it gives you volume spread over its beam, the waves will be able to get hold of it and roll you a bit side to side. But when you do get there it will be nice and stiff an anchor when you walk around on it. Also kids and wife will feel safe as it has good freeboard and it won't lean as much in gusts because it has form stability to prevent it healing. This will feel reassuring to novices.

Lets look at Wenda type...

Its long, slim slack bilged and has overhangs. A deeper V hull, it will rock around abit when you walk around on her. Also in a gust it doesn't have the form stability (she's slack bilged) so cope so she'll heel over. This can be a problem with kids and family, as they'll see the sea much closer to them with the rail under, and novices get scared by this. Generally it will make them think its unsafe. But her trump card comes in green rolling waves. The slack bilges with no flat surface sitting on the water means as waves roll by the can't grip the boat and they just roll right under and she'l be less affected that a Cape Henry type. Same with her long overhangs and deep V and double ender, she'll slice through waves. She'll be comfortable in a sea. But when you get there, she has less accomodation over a full ended boat of equivalent length. and she'll tip a bit as people walk around. You can avoid the gusts by reefing early, but that's not always how it is.

The Cape Henry is a very good boat. You really need accomodation when you get there. It'll be more than capable of bay conditions. It will keep wife and kids away from seeing too much water which might get them feeling ressured and happy to go sailing. Which is the only aim with family sailing.

The vertues of a slack bilged, long ended approach in my experience, though supreme in waves, can't explained to a frightened crew if they feel it tip in a gust or see the water over the rail. They won't go out again. You lose their confidence despite it being better in waves. You can't explain the merits of a slack bilge to them...

I'd go with the Cape Henry. The Haiku needs more to be built so people can see the interior space before you commit as a family boat. It would be my choice for an ultra shallow draft with a reef or bar to cross, but the Cape Henry will clear most things.

In case you've not seen it, the Golant Gaffer is worth a look - strip plank - more keel - more classic small gaffer, Gartside has an nice 20ft gaffer but there's not alot of space inside (less than a Cape Henry) and Roger Dongray has designed a 20ft plywood version of his Shrimper as a ketch - the Golant Ketch similar to but a bit smaller than a Cape Henry.

You need space, some free board and form stability for a family boat. The Cape Henry will suit. I can't see that it has any chinks in its armour. They're also fast and come from a recognised naval architect with full patterns I think. Its quite mainstream so it'l be worth a bit finished, so you'll get your money back easy one day. It'll cost you nothing.

You can buy a kit. £2701 from Jordan Boats. Will save a ton of time as its been designed in CAD and so should all fit. I'd take this approach unless your wife is happy when your in the garage, to save potential marital strife and a year less to build it. The Cape Henry has alot of sail area, they're fast boats disguised as something tradtional. It won't be slow or unresponsive.


Looking at her figures, she's not overly beamy and quite V'd in the garboard. She'll be fine in some waves creaming along. That V makes her rock just slightly as he walks around till the chine submerges. Better than a flat bottom in waves.

ed

Thanks for that solid thinking Ed, and your thoughtful input - much appreciated

Lets look at Wenda type...
Its long, slim slack bilged and has overhangs.........

Reading that bit, it's as if one can be beguiled away from the practicalities of life, like with the human kind

sayla

[jes68]

Hi
I am new here and in front of the same decision: am I going to build a CH 21 or a Farne Islander. Oh man, what a difficult decision.
In my eyes the Farne Islander looks by far better. It is the classical sail cutter look with a certain elegance, a traditional rigg with topsail, main and two jibs.
The CH21 looks compressed some how like a boxer. A workboat with the better cabin space. The boat that makes more sense to build. It does NOT come with a cutter rig but sloop. A cutter rig is an option but not realy recommended by Mr. Dix. BUT, it can be build without centreboard so the cabin is even more usefull and less crowded.
Headromm is 1.25m on the CH21 vs. 1.45m on the Frane Islander.
CH21 has 4 bunks and addtl. storage. FI has only 3 bunks and storage space. It is better for two only.

Now the question: anybody out there in or close to Germany building one of these two and who does not mind being visited for an exchange of experience?
Juergen

[Jazzman]

Hi Sayla,
Some of my absolutely favourite boats!
Have you seen canoeyawl's ply clinker Wenda? Breathtaking!
Very interested to hear your final decision.
Just a thought- won't a black boat get very hot up there where you live?

[skaraborgcraft]

I once had a ferro-cement Tasman 27,that was painted black......sure good in Northern climes to have some stored heat overnight,but an absolute sweat box in the Med. Try a test panel of a epoxied lap joint ,painted black and leave it in the sun all day then try to break the join,see if the wood splits before the glueline. Call me paranoid, but.........

[Sayla]

I once had a ferro-cement Tasman 27,that was painted black......sure good in Northern climes to have some stored heat overnight,but an absolute sweat box in the Med. Try a test panel of a epoxied lap joint ,painted black and leave it in the sun all day then try to break the join,see if the wood splits before the glueline. Call me paranoid, but.........

It's a worry, even just for topsides, but I might be able to pick out a reasonable colour from this stuff

http://www.resene.com.au/comn/whtsnew/cool_colours.htm

[donald branscom]

Too bad there is no video with sound and in English.

[donald branscom]

Hi
I am new here and in front of the same decision: am I going to build a CH 21 or a Farne Islander. Oh man, what a difficult decision.
In my eyes the Farne Islander looks by far better. It is the classical sail cutter look with a certain elegance, a traditional rigg with topsail, main and two jibs.
The CH21 looks compressed some how like a boxer. A workboat with the better cabin space. The boat that makes more sense to build. It does NOT come with a cutter rig but sloop. A cutter rig is an option but not realy recommended by Mr. Dix. BUT, it can be build without centreboard so the cabin is even more usefull and less crowded.
Headromm is 1.25m on the CH21 vs. 1.45m on the Frane Islander.
CH21 has 4 bunks and addtl. storage. FI has only 3 bunks and storage space. It is better for two only.

Now the question: anybody out there in or close to Germany building one of these two and who does not mind being visited for an exchange of experience?
Juergen

In my opinion the Sloop rig is better. The mast can be 20% farther forward.
And you could use a staysail when needed.

[donald branscom]

I'd also take a long look at John Welsford's Penguin, as she has a seperate forward cabin from the saloon (and two quarter berths) so you can get overnight privacy from your children (especially teenagers) unlike the four berths arranged around one saloon/ room with the Farne and Dix cutters. She also has a close off'able toilet, so that girls can go in private, even if someone is in the saloon. That could make a mighty big difference, to whether you have regular mixed sex crew or not, beyond the first time out. Best cruising interior in a 20ft shallow draft centreboarder boat by a distance. The yawl rig will help reduce stress too if you need to keep her head to wind, while you organise things for your 'crew' at anchor or when reefing, as your crew or school friends are likely to be inexperienced, and are really there for the sun. Penguin would be my choice to generate collective family happy experiences, if i was over nighting regularly with four aboard (especially a mixed sex crew), where a happy weekend cruise/ snorkel etc were the objective and the boat had to not get in the way, 'coz she'd designed around the interior from a cruisers perspective, not an interior put into a gaffer, if that makes sense


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The interior of this boat is terrible.
The galley is bad because your knees would be hitting the bulkhead and you have to have your upper body turned 90º.
The Porta Potti will stink up the interior and who wants to look at it when eating.
That whole transverse bulkhead needs re thinking. A very poor design.
Can you imagine crawling over that bulkhead to get into the bunk. You know the Porti Potti is going to get kicked.
I would rather take my plate out in the cockpit and eat.

[jes68]

In my opinion the Sloop rig is better. The mast can be 20% farther forward.
And you could use a staysail when needed.

I think the cutter configuration is more flexible to adjust for wind conditions. But it is more complicated to use.
Jürgen

[keyhavenpotterer]

The interior of this boat is terrible.
The galley is bad because your knees would be hitting the bulkhead and you have to have your upper body turned 90º.
The Porta Potti will stink up the interior and who wants to look at it when eating.
That whole transverse bulkhead needs re thinking. A very poor design.
Can you imagine crawling over that bulkhead to get into the bunk. You know the Porti Potti is going to get kicked.
I would rather take my plate out in the cockpit and eat.

Donald, well i don't have a dog in this fight, but if I was aboard and I had a wife son and daughter, having a toilet in a seperate compartment would be huge bonus. Its exceptional, not to have the toilet just under a berth in in the cockpit or V forward in a shallow draft 20ft trailer sailer. If the toilet had a wood or canvas door, everyone can sleep undisturbed, while someone uses it. Girls won't be impressed with a bucket approach, and they will expect privacy. That or everyone has to get into the cockpit when ever they wan't to go. I'd rather have it in a separate part of the boat, than next to the galley (Farne Islander) or forward berth (Cape Henry)

The transverse bulkheads massively stiffens up the centrecase and supports the mast properly (in its tabernackle). Leaking/ creaking centrecases is a week spot on many trailer sailers. Even grp ones.

The cooker in its space would allow it to be vented effectively. Its designed that way to enable someone to be asleep on the quarter berth behind it, and still have sufficient space for someone (parents) to sit and cook there in the morning. There is a twist for sure, but this is a weekender, not a transatlantic cutter.

Its worth noting that the Dudley Dix cape cutter and the Welsford boat are available with bilge keels also. Also Penguin has a yawl option, and leeboard option, the others don't. They're all a great choice.

Ed

[jes68]

Some thoughts about the boats named here:
From my research the CapeCutter19 would work. The arrangement inside can be a 1:1 copy of the Peguin discussed here, if the builder is not going to byuy pre-cut material but does some adjustments to the design. Leaving more material in will not weaken the structure and nobody has to go for the little box-style storage bins. Only the spars have to be on the intended loaction. B.t.w. the CH19 is NOT available with bilgekeels except you want them, so Dudley will do some work for you on separate bill.
The CH21 fits even better as he is essentially a scaled up version of the CH19. He is available with bilge keels of the shelf. Unfortunatelly you have to decide when you order the plans, which version you want to build. In my eyes the CH21 needs some modifications as outlined in the Watercraft magazin, where they followed a building process with several articles. Modifications were (amongst others): wideing of the coamings to have better seating and support, increasing sitting height inside for more comfort, shortening the quarter berth to 2m (6ft 8"?) to get more storage in the cockpit, modification of the table inside to get more room for knees...
Again, the location of the toilet can be under the forward berth, but you can copy the arrangement from Penguin as well easily if you like.
The disadvantage of the CH21 over the CH19 is the outside dimensions in case you want to take it out for places. The CH19 fits inside a 20feet standar container so you can get it trucked and shipped long distances. Maybe even on a trailer. The CH21 does not easily fit. Imagine you want to go for a sailing vacation to the Caribian or even to Thailand/Australia/Europe. You send your boat down there and when you arrive...In case you do not plan to go long distances I would prefer the larger boat.

Farne Islander: I have a set of original drawings and from those I must say that this one not meant for 3 or 4 people. Check the space with a simple drawing software and you will see, that you can put in 2 normal berth of 2m length and some space left and right of about 60 x 80cm for cooking, chart table, bins, washing basin on one side, and a closed area with a toilet and lockers on the other side. That´s it.
I know that Iain´s sketch of the interior shows a 3 berth arrangement, but one is about 2m long, the other one is around 1.9m and the third one about 1.7m. You can modify the given design and fit in a 3rd full lenght berth, but then you have only limited space for cooking and toilet, or you have no storage space at one side under the cockpit. Besides that the forward berth becomes quite narrow. So a tight boat for 3, a comfortable boat for 2 but a no-boat for 3+.

About the Penguin arrangement: if you do not like to sit 90° to the cooker, why not shorten the quarter berth by 30cm and making space for the knees and feet? If you make the head location foldable...and the PortaPotty can get a housing around you can close and that traps any fumes. A hanging locker on top of it..... there are options.
Juergen

[keyhavenpotterer]

There was a Farne Islander that sold on Boatshed brokerage a year or two ago. It was commercially built by McNulty in the UK. If you login you can see the interior and exterior. Anyhow, as its a rare boat, the interior looks like this (on this one). A lovely boat.

Juergen, out of interest whats included in the plans from Ian, i gather they aren't as 'full' as usual?

[keyhavenpotterer]

[Jazzman]

Juergen, when you say the sitting height inside the CH21 is increased for more comfort, does this mean that the knees are less bent? What happens to headroom then?

[jes68]

@keyheavenpotterer
My plans from Iain consists of 5 sheets, one are the lines and cross-sections; one is the construction, with all the lenghtwise cut drawing with dimensions on wood pieces on it; one is the sail plan; one shows mast and spars and the last one is the interior. There is also a small sheet with the off-sets. It might be that Iain sends also some general boat building instructions. I do not know exactly as I got three designs from him (Farne Islander, Wee Seal and Kotik). My feeling right now is that you can build from these plans if youi have some technical background or experience from other areas like RC mode boat or aircraft building etc. If you never ever read a plan of any kind than you need some help fom books or other friends.
Compared to the drawings of the CH21 from Dix the Farne Islander plans are realy basic and you need to do some lofting yourself and also design/detail out some pieces of the hardware yourself.
The interior shown on the pictures is not the one from the plans. Google for Farne Islander Oughtred NIS. They sell the plans for Australia and there is a 3 side view of the boat. The you see what I mean.
What you can already see on the pictures is that the forward berths are not equal, neither in geometry nor position. The left hand one is smaller and normally a bit shorter.
On my one (if I get started) I will move the left hand one back so the arrangement becomes symmetric. That moves the cooker station back and the porta potti is positioned opposite next to the stairs. I just have two berth, but a closed lo and some locker space in the forecastle.

@jazzman
I wanted to say, that the builder of the demonstrator in the Watercraft magazin modified the quarter berth height by moving up the top surfaces of the quarter berths by some inches. I can not say wether or not the cabin height increased from CC19 to CH21.
It works at least from the sketches in the magazin at least.
Rgds
Juergen

[skaraborgcraft]

A seperate bog that can be used while berths are occupied, as Ed pointed out is a rare thing in this size bracket. I dont take to the looks of Penguin,but the interior layout is good,in my opinion. I have never used an athwartship galley,but for a weekender,maybe this is not an issue,this is not the sort of boat that i imagine to be underway 24hrs a day in all conditions.

With regards to the bleck paint and epoxy, i think this was touched on some years ago,and a guy running charter cats in the carribbean,with no issues,but i still cant say im happy with a boat that looses bond strength when it gets hot. Im sure there would be precise info on that on the Gougen bros. website....maybe.

I dont know of anyone who routinely containers a small boat around the globe. Not saying its a bad idea,but for the price of container delivery you could probably charter a much larger boat for a few weeks. I did hear of someone wanting to ship a small yacht out to French Polynesia, but the cost was more than the boat.

[jes68]

I do not want to argue but a container can be transported by any truck, ship or even aircraft. The are charged by size and not weight. I think the cost for across the Atlantic is around 3000€. But even shorter distances make sense (in my eyes). I can pack everything readily on the boat, get it trucked down for example from Germany to Greece or Turkey. My familiy and I follow by plane. I avoid 2-3days one way with a trailer in my car, I have no problem with luggage capacity in my car or any weight issues. The only thing I have to organize is to get the boat in and out of the water.
I mean, if I decide for a trailer sailer then the intention behind it is to change regions. Otherwise I would go for a bigger and more comfortable boat. So, if I decide to be flexible...transport options should be taken into consideration.

[Jamie Orr]

It's the 'soon' thing that's the issue - my wife kinda wants to be using it yesterday, which I think kinda rules out a Cape Henry- it requires a bigger car, bigger trailer, bigger job to make it, more money all round, but still not big enough to last indefinitely - my big boat project that I have on the burner will be many many years away, so "now" is the operative word for these kids. My younger boys are 6 and 8, so I figure they'll get to use it between the ages of 8 & 12 (?two yr project), have some adventure, and learn the ropes so to speak. So, I suppose I'm really comparing a Cape Cutter with a Farne Islander and the various attributes of them.

Just a thought about the "now" requirement. I built my Chebacco thinking that the family could go sailing together, but by the time I finished the kids were entering the teen years and had their own interests. We sailed some together but not as much as I'd hoped. I would suggest separating the building project from the family sailing - they are two different goals. Buy a boat to use now, while selecting and building another without the time pressure. Unless you're a whizbanger, it always takes longer than you expect.

Jamie

[jes68]

A timeline of 2 years rules out the Farne Islander except you have a shop full of tools, experience and you can work full time on the project. Forget about the 1000hours building time from Iain. Double or tripel it.
Have you thought about buying a CC19 ready to go? I fear, as it is not the focus on building a boat, but having one in two 2 years from now with the option to re-sell it, then buying is better. Go either for a CC19 or Cornish Crabber. I think you will not save much money over diy and the market acceptance for factory build boats is higher than for diy-boats.
If you want a father and sons project go simpler (e.g. WeeSeal: you get a hardware kit from GB, precut material and much better plans than the Farne Islander; Eun na Mara at least the precut materials, same for the Kotik=stretch WeeSeal). Hunting for hardware, lofting plans on real material, cutting the planks and spars takes more time than you think.
OR buy a used one in need of a refurbishment. There are plenty out there for small money in need of lot´s of work.
Juergen

[skaraborgcraft]

@ Juergen, re;containers, it may be that your pockets are much deeper than other peoples. Paying 3000E to ship a boat across the Atlantic would be the equivalent of at least 3 months cruising kitty funds. If you do not have the time or desire to cross the Atlantic under your own steam is the reason i suggested it could be better to charter for a short space of time. Having helped construct a winged aluminium bulb keel, and had that air frieghted to the Caribbean,i can tell you that flying a container anywhere is prohibatively expensive,unless of course you own your own air frieght company. Horses for courses, if you can afford to do such things,more power to you,but i dont think its in the realms of most homebuilders budget. Getting to Turkey or Greece from the UK is a long slog by sea, and its a long drive also, but getting a container from the port,to a place where the boat can be removed,and then launched also costs money, and what do you do with the container while its empty? The logistics are just not that simple. Making a disposable wooden cradle and going as "deck cargo" would be cheaper, but there is no guarentee that they would crane you from deck into the waters of a commercial dock without a mass of paperwork. Its not that easy,which is why you dont hear about people doing it on a regular basis. Im not saying its impossible,but actually impractical to some people, and as it appears, as practical to yourself. Cheers

[jes68]

You did not catch my meaning.
In steps: you put your boat on a trailer. The boat is fully packed with all what you need for your journey.
You put boat on trailer inside a container.
The container belongs to a freight company, who does the trucking/shipping for you.
The container will be loaded and transported to your destination. You can pick up the boat at the station of the freight company, the customs area at the destination habour or what ever becomes applicable.

I show up with MY car, put the trailer on my hook and drive it to the yacht habour, where I can either crane it into the water or slip it by myself.

Trucking costs within Europe for a 20ft container are a few hundert Euro from North to South, especially fi you can make it to catch an empty slot.

My advantage is that I save 2 days driving as without trailer I have higher speed limits OR I can take the plane and hire a pullingf truck for my trailer (you get those from the freight company for little money).

I never said to transport by air freight!
I never said that I do it this way!

I just said, if you want to do it, the CH21 does not fit into a container and you have to pull it to your destination.
Rgds
Juergen

P.S.: the Farne Islander I did not check but lenght and width should fit, Height might be an issue.

[jes68]

Hi
.....
Now the question: anybody out there in or close to Germany building one of these two and who does not mind being visited for an exchange of experience?
.....

REALY nobody out there building or owning one of these?
Mostly interested in de Farne Islander as this one is the one I am thinking to start building.
Juergen