My Encounter with Gun Culture

[Phillip Allen]

guess that makes it alright then

as right as it is for anyone else

[Paul Pless]

whatever

[Phillip Allen]

whatever

very dismissive of you...

[SaltyBoatr]

very dismissive of you...

Ha ha.

Actually, your calling me dishonest because I simply disagree with you and your group's value system, smacks of narcissism.

Group narcissism is the kind of thing that allows group bigotry and rationalization of oppression. For instance, like the Founding Founders did with their slaves. You would have fit right in.

[Phillip Allen]

Ha ha.

Actually, your calling me dishonest because I simply disagree with you and your group's value system, smacks of narcissism.

Group narcissism is the kind of thing that allows group bigotry and rationalization of oppression. For instance, like the Founding Founders did with their slaves. You would have fit right in.

so would you... an extreme Federalist

[SaltyBoatr]

so would you... an extreme Federalist

You forget. The Federalists won. All 13 states, unanimously, voted with the Federalists. 223 years later and you still hold a grudge, amazing! Get over it. Love it or leave it.

[Phillip Allen]

You forget. The Federalists won. All 13 states, unanimously, voted with the Federalists. 223 years later and you still hold a grudge, amazing! Get over it. Love it or leave it.

'love it or leave it'... yet again (very authoritian of you)

(I wonder if German camp gards used to shout that phrase through the barbed wire?)

[SaltyBoatr]

'love it or leave it'... yet again (very authoritian of you)

(I wonder if German camp gards used to shout that phrase through the barbed wire?)

I don't follow your point. Federalism = authoritarianism?!? I am expressing an appeal to patriotism. Our Constitution is Federalist. Yet you express disdain, and lack patriotism. Or, do you feel that this 223 year old Federalist governmental system of ours is analogous to Nazism?

[Phillip Allen]

I don't follow your point. Federalism = authoritarianism?!? I am expressing an appeal to patriotism. Our Constitution is Federalist. Yet you express disdain, and lack patriotism. Or, do you feel that this 223 year old Federalist governmental system of ours is analogous to Nazism?

get someone who inclined to explain it to you

[SaltyBoatr]

get someone who inclined to explain it to you

Once again, our different world views clash. Disdain for the out group.

[Tylerdurden]

According to sales figures gun sales have skyrocketed since just before Obama got into office. There was a slight decrease which still exceed previous figures but once again its spiking. Several shop owners have explained its because of the dismal display of the republicans in the field coupled with the feeling things are going to get worse, much worse.
The shop I work at it seems that is the consensus also.

Now how do guys like Salty figure they have a beggars chance in hell at getting any anti-gun policy's into place without the use of force applied creating the self fulfilling prophecy that gun owners are a dangerous lot?
If you ask me they want this violence just like neo cons on the left and right cling to the hope another major terrorist attack will shift the public perception.
Attacking people for wanting to defend themselves in its own right is the desire for violence. If these anti-gun folks were instead working for peace and justice they might influence gun owners over time. They are aware of this so back to my premise that most anti-gun folks harbor racist views because of the history of racist gun control laws and two they want violence to win their point and to react with violent confiscations. It's eugenics all over again behind the veil of caring. Just remove those who oppose them and scare the rest into conformity. It is a fraud in reality. It is about control, nothing else.

[SaltyBoatr]

According to sales figures gun sales have skyrocketed ... Now how do guys like Salty figure they have a beggars chance in hell at getting any anti-gun policy's into place...

1) Gun sales figures skyrocketed? You are drinking the gun industry Kool Aid. The actual data of guns sales you refer have never been disclosed by the firearms industry. The reason for this is that the gun industry has a strong incentive to hide the fact that a large portion of their gun sales are being diverted to criminals.

2) Anti-gun?!? I am not. Q: Why do you need to paint me as anti-gun? A: You need an enemy to validate your world view.

You are worried about control? Have you not noticed that the marketing campaign by the gun industry is controlling you?

[Paul Pless]

1) The reason for this is that the gun industry has a strong incentive to hide the fact that a large portion of their gun sales are being diverted to criminals.

Speaking of koolaide. . .

[Phillip Allen]

Speaking of koolaide. . .

I saw that too...

BTW... He is not only anti gun ("I come here not to bury Ceasar...") but very likely deeply into 'People Control" if he ever aquires much power over others... he will abuse it if he can

[Tylerdurden]

1) Gun sales figures skyrocketed? You are drinking the gun industry Kool Aid. The actual data of guns sales you refer have never been disclosed by the firearms industry. The reason for this is that the gun industry has a strong incentive to hide the fact that a large portion of their gun sales are being diverted to criminals.

2) Anti-gun?!? I am not. Q: Why do you need to paint me as anti-gun? A: You need an enemy to validate your world view.


You are worried about control? Have you not noticed that the marketing campaign by the gun industry is controlling you?

I work in the industry and am Privy to the trade publications. Of course your fanaticism would always trump that. Now Could you post those fanatic figures I have never seen before along with what you considier a large portion? Accorrding to what I have seen in numbers it is less than 1% even on the most extreme side of the equation which is mostly speculative.

The gun industry doesn't control me. In fact most of the gun owners here will tell you. I don't collect, don't trophy hunt, or participate in most of what the lobby has to offer. What influnces me is the oath I have sworn. Now try asking some of the others around you at the Fusion center for better tactics to apply because at this point it ben mostly fail with large doses of fantasy and ignorance.

[SaltyBoatr]

I work in the industry and am Privy to the trade publications. ... The gun industry doesn't control me.

The profit motive does't control you? You are not typical.

Also, you are privy to trade publications? Take a look for the industry sales raw data. It is missing. (No surprise, because that data might be used to trace their guns sales to criminals.)

You asked for data of crime gun sales. First, the gun industry has lobbied like crazy (with success) to keep this data obscure. Still, there is hard evidence that crime guns come from the 'private sale' loophole. Where private parties buy guns at stores and resell 'legally' in paperless sales, with evidence that those guns end up resold to criminals. (Ditto for export to Mexican gangsters.)

[SaltyBoatr]

...try asking some of the others around you at the Fusion center...

Fusion center? You do realize this makes people guess you are paranoid and wear tin foil hats. Right?

[Tylerdurden]

Fusion center? You do realize this makes people guess you are paranoid and wear tin foil hats. Right?

Sorry if you don't understand. It is a notion used to describe the usual media driven zombie. I am not going to go round with you because it is futile for both sides of the argument. At some point your want to destroy our liberty's will come down to the use of force.
I am sure you will never be a part of its application so in my view your opinions are meaningless to me like the rest of your brethren.
If we measured opinion by the resolve behind them we could throw out 99% of what gets posted here. It is futile to go on with it under those considerations. You will not convince us and it does not matter if we convince you. You have no part in it. None.

[SaltyBoatr]

...like the rest of your brethren.

Grouping me into some nefarious evil enemy group also makes you look paranoid.

Pardon me, I don't feel unreasonable for wanting some common sense laws to advance public safety.

There is a powerful incentive for industry groups to de-regulate their industry to maximize their profit potential. This applies to any industry, and the gun industry is no different.

I see that the gun industry exploits your genuine feelings, "fear of losing liberty", etc.., and they then deftly manipulate your feelings to de-control gun regulations. For instance, having 'paperless sales' being legal in 44 states. That is GREAT for the gun industry profits because it expands their market base to include more people (like criminals) into their customer pool.

Also, whipping up your fear of "gun grabbers" makes you tend to want to hoard guns.

Don't you see how you are being manipulated here?

[Tylerdurden]

I am grouping you by your involvement on this thread. Actions speak louder than words.

[SaltyBoatr]

I am grouping you by your involvement on this thread. Actions speak louder than words.

Ok then. How does my involvement in this thread mean (as you wrote) "your want to destroy our liberty".

How am I wanting to destroy our liberty?

By the way, your sentiments echo the gun industry marketing campaign that we need to buy guns and ammunition now while we still can.

Don't you feel like a manipulated consumer?

[Tylerdurden]

I haven't bought anything past ammo in the past four years and that is practice rounds mostly. Other than that I bought some parts that goes directly to my study of gunsmithing. I am not driven by marketing ever having a complete understanding of Bernays. Your barking up the wrong tree as usual.

You actions by participating on this thread over and over saying the same things again and again clearly point to your agenda and purpose. No amount of wordsmithing will cover that obvious fact.

[Iceboy]

Cripes, that is like saying the makers of oxycontin or other pain meds manufactures them specifically so users with prescriptions can sell them to illicit drug users. By the way, straw sales of firearms are illegal in all 50 states. Your argument that they are "legally" transferred in post #118 is a blatant lie. Most paperless sales are of used firearms from one private purchaser to another and are not used for criminal purposes. I used to work in the industry but do not any longer and have zero profit motive. Besides the federal government REQUIRES all manufacturers of firearms to submit production reports. Try looking here so you might just appear to know what you are talking about. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/ All sales from licensed dealers are tracked and documented by the ATF. Any dealer that varies from the legal will lose thier livelihood in short order.
As an aside, the only reference to illegal firearm sale to drug cartels in Mexico that I have seen recently has been your own ATF allowing straw purchases. Perhaps we should do away with the ATF then as they are the ones responsible.

[SaltyBoatr]

I haven't bought anything past ammo in the past four years and that is practice rounds mostly. Other than that I bought some parts that goes directly to my study of gunsmithing. I am not driven by marketing ever having a complete understanding of Bernays.

I accept that you are not aware of the effects of marketing. I grant the unlikely chance that you are not subconsciously effected either. (That said, you would be very unusual in such a case!)

You didn't answer my question: How am I wanting to destroy our liberty?

Merely asking that question gives a clear impression that you have been drinking the gun industry marketing Kool Aid. But I take you at your word, you are not driven by their marketing, so you came up with this idea entirely independently. I grant that.

[Iceboy]

Oh and as an aside. The national average for firearms used in a crime is 10.94 years from the time of the purchase until the firearm is used in a crime. Sure sounds like most crime is committed with straw purchases. NOT.

[SaltyBoatr]

Your argument that they are "legally" transferred in post #118 is a blatant lie.

The paperless transaction is legal in 44 states. This undercuts the ability of police to trace the criminals who purchase guns through the private sale loophole. No lie.

Your argument about straw sales being already illegal requires an illogical presumption that the 'honor system' works in the private sale grey market.

Why make it hard for police to trace gun sales?

Honest question, I dare you to answer.

[Iceboy]

First off, the paperless sale you are refering to as legal are between private parties and does not involve a federally licensed dealer. By definition they are not straw sales as you like to imply they are. And yes I would be willing to say that most private sales are done on the honor system and it works quite well. I really don't think you have any idea just how many firearms sales are conducted by private parties in this country. Scan any buyers guide or shopper outside of a city and you can find them by the hundreds. Why make it harder for police to trace gun sales? Hell, I'll be happy to answer that question. It is not the local police department's job to trace gun sales. Quite frankly it is none of thier business who does or doesn't have a firearm unless it is used illegally. By the way, spend a bit of time on the ATF web site and you may see it is not all that hard for police to trace firearms sales even through private transactions. I also would like to say I have no desire to live in a police state. If I am not outwardly doing something illegal then the police have NO business even looking in my direction.

[TomF]

Cripes, that is like saying the makers of oxycontin or other pain meds manufactures them specifically so users with prescriptions can sell them to illicit drug users. ...

Actually, that is something which bears a bit of investigation.

[SaltyBoatr]

Why make it harder for police to trace gun sales? Hell, I'll be happy to answer that question. It is not the local police department's job to trace gun sales. Quite frankly it is none of thier business who does or doesn't have a firearm unless it is used illegally.

Wow! Jaw drop. Not the police's job?

Where I live it is the local police department's job to investigate crime. Their job is made much harder when they cannot trace guns they find at crime scenes due to the ease of bypassing the background check system created by the grey market paperless sale loophole.

And why be willfully ignorant, "Quite frankly it is none of thier business who does or doesn't have a firearm unless it is used illegally." ? So, eliminating our police's ability to trace the illegal straw sales is OK with you? I see no harm (to the law abiding gun owner) having gun sales registered and tracked. Close the loophole, no harm caused, and some benefit achieved. Seems to be a logical choice.

[Iceboy]

Jaw drop all you want to. Sure it is the police departments job to confiscate firearms used illegally. It is not thier job to trace where they came from. As far as the link to your article, why are you not complaining about the report written by those with a vested interest in controlling others. Another thing, Why is it so important to determine the source of the firearm? Do you want to trace it back 10.94 years to the original purchaser to prosecute them? Also, it is already illegal to sell firearms to the mentally ill and domestic abusers. You may also wish to spend some more time looking at the pure numbers when saying all of these crimes are being committed with loophole firearms. I think you will find that more often than not the firearms have been stolen from family members and not purchased at gun shows. Try going to one. I'd be willing to bet you won't be seeing a bunch of low pants gang bangers there. Most likely they would be laughed out of the place if not tossed out on thier ears. My goodness looking at this page from the ATF you should lock yourself away. http://www.atf.gov/statistics/downlo...washington.pdf Seems it only takes 10.65 years from purchase to crime there. Seems those police have been very busy doing all of those traces. Look, there were 5,459,240 firearms manufactured and sold in the US in 2010. Just for fun, let's divide that by 50 for the amount sold in Washington state (may be more as it is a state where hunting is popular) being 67,979. Now, think about how many have been sold over the last 100 years or so and then look at the amount of firearms traced in 2010 3,465. My goodness I am now in fear of even going to such a dangerous place with no police control. I have to end our friendly discussion for now as my lunch is over. Have a happy and safe day.

[Phillip Allen]

it is the job of police to investigate crime, if it is not a crime... it is not their job to investigate it

[Iceboy]

Indeed, I am pretty sure more folks die from prescription drug abuse than from firearms purchased illegally. I will admit that I have not checked those statistics.

[SaltyBoatr]

it is the job of police to investigate crime, if it is not a crime... it is not their job to investigate it

The gap in your logic is that you advocate for making it harder for the police to identify crime. Paperless sales fosters crime by making it very difficult to identify in the grey market for handguns, sold 'legally' out of the trunks of automobiles.

Of course their job is to investigate crime. Explain whey we should make that job harder?

[SaltyBoatr]

Why is it so important to determine the source of the firearm? Do you want to trace it back 10.94 years to the original purchaser to prosecute them?

The 10.94 is the time elapsed since the time of the last NICS check of a sale. It is not the time since the last paperless sale.

The reason it is so important to determine the source of the firearm is that selling guns to criminals is illegal. Again, I think you are saying that the honor system is good enough to stop illegal gun sales on the private market. I think that is laughable.

I missed your answer to my question: Why make it hard for police to trace gun sales?

[SaltyBoatr]

Indeed, I am pretty sure more folks die from prescription drug abuse than from firearms purchased illegally. I will admit that I have not checked those statistics.

Nope. After a quick Google: 26,000 overdose deaths in 2006 (with prescription drug abuse being the majority), versus about 30,000 deaths from firearms per year.

Both are public health problems. Prescription drugs are regulated much more intensely than guns even though guns cause more death. Why?

[TomF]

Nope. After a quick Google: 26,000 overdose deaths in 2006 (with prescription drug abuse being the majority), versus about 30,000 deaths from firearms per year.

Both are public health problems. Prescription drugs are regulated much more intensely than guns even though guns cause more death. Why?

Because there's no 2nd Amendment for drugs, nor did drug use gain a place in Revolutionary and Old West mythology.

[Phillip Allen]

Because there's no 2nd Amendment for drugs, nor did drug use gain a place in Revolutionary and Old West mythology.

Marie LaBeau?

[SaltyBoatr]

Because there's no 2nd Amendment for drugs, nor did drug use gain a place in Revolutionary and Old West mythology.

Nothing in the courts, not ever, (with hundreds if not thousands of court cases settled) has found that reasonable regulation of guns violates the Second Amendment.

So, which Second Amendment are you talking about?

The Supreme Court ruled:

"Like most rights, the Second Amendment right is not unlimited. It is not a right to keep and carry any weapon whatsoever in any manner whatsoever and for whatever purpose: For example, concealed weapons prohibitions have been upheld under the Amendment or state analogues. The Court’s opinion should not be taken to cast doubt on longstanding prohibitions on the possession of firearms by felons and the mentally ill, or laws forbidding the carrying of firearms in sensitive places such as schools and government buildings, or laws imposing conditions and qualifications on the commercial sale of arms. Miller’s holding that the sorts of weapons protected are those “in common use at the time” finds support in the historical tradition of prohibiting the carrying of dangerous and unusual weapons."

[Paul Pless]

Nothing in the courts, not ever, (with hundreds if not thousands of court cases settled) has found that reasonable regulation of guns violates the Second Amendment.

Guess you missed The District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago to name just two recent high court decisions?

[TomF]

Saltyboatr, I'm actually on your side on this issue. While I haven't trolled through the legal precedents, I also think that the Second Amendment's wording doesn't, at least on the face of it, preclude reasonable arms regulation.

But why are prescription drugs more regulated than firearms? Not least, I imagine, because they've no amendment at all guaranteeing a right of access. And they're not so closely tied up in the US' nation-building mythology.

[SaltyBoatr]

Guess you missed The District of Columbia v. Heller and McDonald v. Chicago to name just two recent high court decisions?

Ummm. That quote in post #140 is directly taken from D.C. v. Heller.

You wouldn't learn this reading National Rifleman, but in the last four years since Heller and McDonald many hundreds of court cases have challenged existing gun laws on 2A grounds, and nearly without exception (+99%) of all imaginable gun laws on the books have been found to be Constitutional.

Bottom line, those two court cases you mention solidly confirmed the 2A Constitutionality of essentially all existing gun laws.

[SaltyBoatr]

...US' nation-building mythology.

So true. This mythology has a long history and gives us the 'gun culture' we know and love.

[Paul Pless]

You wouldn't learn this reading National Rifleman

I've never read the National Rifleman.

[Phillip Allen]

is there such a thing as anti-gun culture?... it looks like it to me but I wonder what others think

perhaps, 'people control culture'?

[Paul Pless]

Bottom line, those two court cases you mention solidly confirmed the 2A Constitutionality of essentially all existing gun laws.

Bottom line is that maybe the majority of cases since then have been ridiculous comparatively speaking. From your linked article.

To date, the federal courts have not invalidated a single gun control law on the basis of the Second Amendment since Heller

The courts have upheld federal laws banning gun ownership by people convicted of felonies and some misdemeanors, by illegal immigrants and by drug addicts. They have upheld laws banning machine guns and sawed-off shotguns. They have upheld laws making it illegal to carry guns near schools or in post offices.

[TomF]

is there such a thing as anti-gun culture?... it looks like it to me but I wonder what others think

perhaps, 'people control culture'?

We're all just activated spores in a petri dish, Phillip.

[SaltyBoatr]

Bottom line is that maybe the majority of cases since then have been ridiculous comparatively speaking. From your linked article.

You are mistaken to use the word 'majority' a better word would be "all".

I followed these court cases for a couple years post-Heller, but stopped counting a couple years ago. I did keep track of 200 cases that challenged gun laws on 2A grounds. All of them found the existing gun law to be Constitutional. All the laws below have been found to not violate the Second Amendment. (Interesting, you notice I said 'nearly all' court cases. One exception is McDonald v. Chigaco, which is interesting because it advances the power of Federalism by imposing federal law on the states, (I know you despise federalism).

Types of gun laws which are Constitutional include:

Laws upheld against 2A challenges
Alleged police interference with gun permit
ATF Form
ATF Form, Straw Purchase, Drug User or Addict in Possession
Attorney General Authority to Import Firearms
Bail Bond Requirements
Ban on Armor Piercing Bullets
Ban on Firearms in Parks where Children are present
Body Armor Ban
Caution Alert
Concealed-Carry Ban
Convicted Person Ban
Domestic Violence Conviction Ban
Domestic Violence Injunction Ban
Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Ban
Domestic Violence Misdemeanor Conviction
Felon in Possession
Felon in Possession of Firearm Ban
Felon in Possession, Carring Firearm in Furtherance of Crime
Felon in Possession, Machine Gun, Un-Registered Firearm & Ammo, Mfg & Importing Firearms
Felon in Possession, Machine Gun, Un-Registered Firearm, Conspiracy to Mfg Un-Registered Firearms
Felon in possession, registration & licensing reqs
Felon in Possession, Transfer of a Machine Gun
Felon in Possession; Sentencing Guidelines
Firearm in Furtherance Drug Trafficking
Firearms Charges
Firearms in Furtherance of criminal activity
Firearms in Furtherance of Drug Trafficking
Firearms in Furtherance of Drug Trafficking, Felon in Possession
Firearms in Furtherance of Drug Trafficking, Machine Gun Possession, Semi-Automatic weapon, Obliterated Serial Number
Forfeiture of Machine Gun Receivers
In-Home Possession of Nanchukas
Lease Provision
License, registration requirements
Lying on ATF Form and Qualifyinhg Court Order ban
Machine Gun Ban
Machine Gun Ban, Registration Requirments
Machine Gun Possession
Machine Gun, Registration Requirements
Machine Gun, Un-Registered, Sawed-off Shotgun Bans
Mentally Ill Ban
Motion for Return of Property
National Park Regulation
Obliterated Serial Number Ban
Ordinance Prohibiting Firearms on County Property
Possessing a handgun in violation of the Juvenile Delinquency Act
Possession of Pipe Bomb Ban
Postal Regulation
Probation Requirement
Qualifying Court Order Ban
Registration & Licensing Requirement
Registration Requirement
Restriction on Certain Type Pistols
Sawed-off Shotgun Ban
Sensitive Places Ban
Sentencing Guideline
State's "At-Will" Termination Law
Stolen Firearms or Ammunition Ban
Straw Purchase
Undocumented Immigrant
Unlawful immigrant in possession
Unlawful User Controlled Substance in Possession
Unlawful User of Controlled Substance
Unlawful User of Controlled Substance, Lying on ATF Form
User or Addict of Controlled Substance

[Paul Pless]

I know you despise federalism

I would say that you don't know much about my political views.

[Phillip Allen]

We're all just activated spores in a petri dish, Phillip.

you realize that cynicism is an incurable disease?

[SaltyBoatr]

I would say that you don't know much about my political views.

Accepted. Sorry.