My Encounter with Gun Culture

[Will Wheeler]

So we're on a road trip from Canada, going through North Carolina. All day we've passed evidence of gun culture i.e. ads for guns n' knives show, gun shops, ranges, etc. So, we're sitting in a Wendy's and a guy several tables down starts talking gun safety. "Yup, one time I was in the pickup with three guns, one of them the safety must have been off cause my glove caught the trigger and the gun went off and went right through the transfer case. Yup, you gotta be careful".

It was all I could do not to roll on the floor, laughing. How many safety rules did he break? Let's see, loaded weapon in vehicle, multiple loaded weapons in vehicle, not using safety, etc. One thing's for certain, he had a lot of guts to admit to it in public. I certainly wouldn't admit to doing something that stupid.

[BrianW]

The moral of the story...

...ah crap, there's no moral. It's a troll.

[Nicholas Scheuer]

Must'a been one of those Japanese trucks, eh?

[seanz]

The moral of the story...

.....with RHD he would've just shot the road.

[wizbang 13]

ya don't have gloves in canadia?

[LeeG]

don't forget fast food culture

[Mrleft8]

ya don't have gloves in canadia?

Mittens this time of year.... Gloves is for July and August.

[Paul Pless]

Let's see, loaded weapon in vehicle

An unloaded weapon certainly ain't very useful; really hard to carry in 'condition 1' without bullets in the gun.

[Dutch]

[Rich Jones]

Were the three guns in the truck pistols or rifles? If pistols, I can see having one loaded if it's use is for personnal protection. If rifles, I say it violates every rule of gun safety to have it loaded when not hunting.
Does a pistol have enough power to punch through a transfer case? Pretty tough clunk of metal. I would think a powerful rifle could, though.
Is there an open carry law in N.C.?

To the crowd who clings to Guns and God: If forced to, which would you give up first, guns or God? Hopefully the former.

[Paul Pless]

If rifles, I say it violates every rule of gun safety to have it loaded when not hunting.

I have found it useful at times to keep a loaded ranch rifle in my truck.

To the crowd who clings to Guns and God: If forced to, which would you give up first, guns or God? Hopefully the former.

What about those of that are godless and cling to guns.

[TomF]

Gotta wonder about people who team up with the 1% to remove your god given rights.

God gave people the right to accidentally discharge a firearm through a truck's transfer case? Did God give people the right to accidentally discharge the firearm through the passenger door too, and kill a pedestrian? And the 1% and assorted collaborator loonies are trying to take both those rights away?

Man, the things I learn here.

[Rich Jones]

I have found it useful at times to keep a loaded ranch rifle in my truck.What about those of that are godless and cling to guns.

Now those are the ones I REALLY worry about!!

[TomF]

All you have is hearsay here. I was at a dinner and overheard a liberal socialist who said when they get full power over the people child sex party's will be commonplace.

Come on, lets not be so obtuse.

Not all.

Certainly in relation to me the OP is hearsay: Will heard a guy say that he'd accidentally discharged a weapon while in his truck. I've got to take Will's word about what he heard. But from where Will stands, it's overhearing a 1st person confession.

But a couple of posts on the thread gave opinions about the usefulness of keeping an unloaded gun in a vehicle, if it's for "protection." And you told us yourself that you can get through a transfer case without a gun. Those bits aren't hearsay.

[TomF]

No they are my personal statement. You can believe or dis believe at your leisure. I am a responsible Gun owner who has carried concealed and had loaded firearms in my vehicle. There are reasons to do so just as Police and Security do so everyday. My reasons were I carried large amounts of cash into high crime areas. I don't do that so much now so I don't carry, I do reserve the right to though. Accidents happen, Cops shoot themselves in their cars. I see no calls to disarm the police.
The argument is moot and beating the horse now is only an exercise in futility. If you want them come take them. There is your line in the sand. Main reason I won't bother to argue much with your guys. I know the score and I know how it will end. All your words are just like sending your preteen sister to defend you from aggressors. It has no weight and no effect. None.

I'm typing this slowly, so it will be easier to understand.

You can keep your guns. I don't want to take them away from you.

But owning them isn't a "God-given right" ... it's one your very human founders chose to write into your country's founding document. Other humans can quite legitimately make different choices - and have. I can own guns here too - and did, for some years. But it isn't any more a "God-given right" than owning a car.

The OP's story is a description of where something about gun safety went wrong. It should, IMO, give any firearm owner pause, just like a near miss traffic accident ought to give a driver pause.

[Chris Coose]

The guy was probably talking loud in the diner because he lost some hearing from the discharge.

Gun guys are always humorous, due to where they come from.

[LeeG]

Yep, My hearing loss was service connected. Keep laughing so the rest of the Vets can read your lips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GPIRzu14viA

[Phillip Allen]

I am typing this quickly so it will fly over your head like anything else. Are you so dense to believe an Anti-gun nut would have anything to teach us about gun safety? Soon Librarians will be Airbus instructors for Flight Safety international according to your logic.

anyone remember when I tried to answer a poster's request for a gun safety discussion?
there were two (in particular) who were anti gun and did not want any discussion of gun safety at all... to me it says volumes about who is really a good citizen

[David Tabor (sailordave)]

Cops shoot themselves in their cars. I see no calls to disarm the police.

Or in the classroom. Unfortunately there are just enough bullies w/ badges (and guns) to scare me. And yes I've seen and had personal experience w/ these kind of Ma-roons.

[Phillip Allen]

The guy was probably talking loud in the diner because he lost some hearing from the discharge.

now, THAT is funny

[TomF]

I am typing this quickly so it will fly over your head like anything else. Are you so dense to believe an Anti-gun nut would have anything to teach us about gun safety? ...

Who's this "Anti-gun nut" you're quoting?

The OP? The safety issues he points out are pretty basic stuff in hunter training and firearms safety courses up here. Maybe Will is anti-gun, and maybe he's been hunting since he was 12.

I'm not anti-gun either - a few posts ago I reminded you that I was a gun owner for years. I just think that owning and using guns is a privilege and a tradition, rather than a right.

[Chris Coose]

now, THAT is funny

That makes a good point Phillip. When people are comfortable with where they are on these hot topic, more black and white issues they can play with it a bit without getting all mind******.
I've known you to be real comfortable in your firearms ownership and same might be said for me in choosing other passions/ hobbies.
America is a gun culture and that's that.

I could see where a Canadian visitor may have an impression to write about.

[TomF]

...As long as you guys come here to trash us with made up story's we will counter. That's the long and short of it. ...

So - Will didn't overhear some guy describe how his glove caught on a trigger, and the accidental discharge put a bullet through his truck's transfer case?

This was all a lie, hallucination, or leftist-conspiracy misinformation?

You know this how, exactly?

[Phillip Allen]

So - Will didn't overhear some guy describe how his glove caught on a trigger, and the accidental discharge put a bullet through his truck's transfer case?

This was all a lie, hallucination, or leftist-conspiracy misinformation?

You know this how, exactly?

it's not a lie if you believe it

[ILikeRust]

You can keep your computers, cell phones, radios, televisions and laser printers. I don't want to take them away from you.

But owning them isn't a "God-given right" ... it's one your very human founders chose to write into your country's founding document. Other humans can quite legitimately make different choices - and have. I can own laser-jet printers here too - and did, for some years. But it isn't any more a "God-given right" than owning a car.

So your position is that we have the rights to free speech, religion, assembly, arms, etc., only because the Framers put those rights in the Constitution? I.e., that the source of those rights is that document?

[Phillip Allen]

So your position is that we have the rights to free speech, religion, assembly, arms, etc., only because the Framers put those rights in the Constitution? I.e., that the source of those rights is that document?

it's the stated source to several here... you ain't been around for a few days have you?

the left wing concensus is that all rights, ALL RIGHTS, come from organized government... pretty revealing of their mind-sets, I think... not all that different from "Uncle Joe"... (who didn't kill anyone at all... in the beginning)

[Phillip Allen]

So your position is that we have the rights to free speech, religion, assembly, arms, etc., only because the Framers put those rights in the Constitution? I.e., that the source of those rights is that document?

an important pretext to a move to rescind those rights ... "All hail centralized government!"

[ILikeRust]

BTW, one idiot bubba hardly is representative of all gun owners. The plural of anecdote is not data. Just because you know one guy who is a raging alcoholic, dangerous drunk doesn't mean the rest of us can't be trusted around a bottle of bourbon.

[Gerarddm]

He was probably on his way with the other bubbas to worship at The Temple Of The Gun.

[Phillip Allen]

BTW, one idiot bubba hardly is representative of all gun owners. The plural of anecdote is not data. Just because you know one guy who is a raging alcoholic, dangerous drunk doesn't mean the rest of us can't be trusted around a bottle of bourbon.

it's not a lie if you believe it

[Phillip Allen]

He was probably on his way with the other bubbas to worship at The Temple Of The Gun.

you preach a great ignorance... what an ambition you have!

[ILikeRust]

He was probably on his way with the other bubbas to worship at The Temple Of The Gun.

Hurr durr! Welll goollllll-ee! That sher was a good `un!! Herpa derp.

I mean, really, that is about as useful, clever and intelligent as that statement.

[SaltyBoatr]

an important pretext to a move to rescind those rights ... "All hail centralized government!"

Again with the paranoia. Fear of a slippery slope towards the abyss gets in the way of any imagined sensible regulation.

[TomF]

it's not a lie if you believe it

Bullshyte. I could tell you I'm a piano player and a ballerina. One would be true and the other a lie, quite independent of what you believe.

Mark's called the tale of a guy describing an accidental gun discharge in the original post a "made up story." A lie. I suppose it could be, but Phillip, the story happened or didn't happen quite independent of what you, or I, or Mark believe. Just like I could be a piano player and a ballerina.

I see Mark's motivation to dismiss the story as "made up," and frankly see it as stronger than Will's motivation to launch the thread by telling a lie. You?

[TomF]

So your position is that we have the rights to free speech, religion, assembly, arms, etc., only because the Framers put those rights in the Constitution? I.e., that the source of those rights is that document?

I think that documents that humans make reflect human understandings. And that claiming otherwise is difficult in the extreme for people who are Atheists or Agnostics - who're by definition rather dodgy about the metaphysical existence of things. The problem exists for agnostics and atheists even if they refer to prior documents like the Rights of Man, or discussions of Natural Law.

Now, I'm a Christian - and do think that something like Natural Law exists - metaphysical equivalents to the Law of Gravity etc. But that this is inherent in God him/herself, and comes down to, essentially, love God and love each other. Statements of "rights" and descriptions of Natural Law are ways in which that gets parsed out - freedom of speech, assembly, religion, etc. And no, I quite determinedly don't agree that the right to bear arms is in the same category. I think it's an understandable, logical, and context-driven artifact of the time in which those rights were written down in human documents.

[Chip-skiff]

I have found it useful at times to keep a loaded ranch rifle in my truck.

What's a "ranch rifle?"

[Dutch]

[switters]

Shoots a combination of buttermilk, mayonnaise, salt garlic, onion.....

That puzzled me for a second or two then went off in my head like a grenade.

good wit,

[ILikeRust]

I think that documents that humans make reflect human understandings.

What if the human understanding at the time was that humans were "endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights"? I.e., that certain rights were fundamental and inherent, derived from the fact of existing as a sentient human being? That government is created not to grant these rights or to determine which rights it will deem worthy enough to allow people to experience, but to help protect those rights and make sure that individuals can enjoy the benefits flowing from the fact that they have those rights?

And that claiming otherwise is difficult in the extreme for people who are Atheists or Agnostics- who're by definition rather dodgy about the metaphysical existence of things.

Yup. I'm a borderline atheist (guess I'll find out - or I won't - when I finally croak, which I hope is many, many years from now, but for the time being, I have a very hard time believing in an invisible magical sky being who is responsible for all of this, but at the same time not responsible for any of it, if you know what I mean).

Is it possible to not have a strong believe in a "god" and yet still believe in natural law? Sure. Yes. I believe certain fundamental rights are inherent in the human condition - you are not "granted" the right by government to continue to be alive and unmolested. As an existing human being, you have that right.

Governments cannot grant rights; only traduce them, as "history hath shewn."

I quite determinedly don't agree that the right to bear arms is in the same category.

The Framers clearly did. It is an outgrowth of the fundamental right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness - i.e., self-determination and the liberty to go about your life as you please, unmolested by others, whether those others be lawless individuals or an overbearing, tyrannical government.

[ILikeRust]

Shoots a combination of buttermilk, mayonnaise, salt garlic, onion.....

Now, I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.

[leikec]

I think that documents that humans make reflect human understandings. And that claiming otherwise is difficult in the extreme for people who are Atheists or Agnostics - who're by definition rather dodgy about the metaphysical existence of things. The problem exists for agnostics and atheists even if they refer to prior documents like the Rights of Man, or discussions of Natural Law.

Now, I'm a Christian - and do think that something like Natural Law exists - metaphysical equivalents to the Law of Gravity etc. But that this is inherent in God him/herself, and comes down to, essentially, love God and love each other. Statements of "rights" and descriptions of Natural Law are ways in which that gets parsed out - freedom of speech, assembly, religion, etc. And no, I quite determinedly don't agree that the right to bear arms is in the same category. I think it's an understandable, logical, and context-driven artifact of the time in which those rights were written down in human documents.

+1


Jeff C

[TomF]

I don't think that government grants any rights.

I think that at best, the foundational documents for the governments people create ... express them. Reflect them. Name them. But the people who came together to form government are logically prior to the organ (government) they created - and the legitimacy of any rights they have is grounded in the people themselves, not in a structure.

But no, I really don't think that the right to bear arms is in the same category as freedom of speech. Arguably a right to self-defence may be, but the right to bear arms describes a means by which self-defence may be expressed ... off the top of my head it seems to be not a foundational right in itself, but something contingent on another right.

[SaltyBoatr]

The Framers clearly did. It is an outgrowth of the fundamental right to life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness - i.e., self-determination and the liberty to go about your life as you please, unmolested by others, whether those others be lawless individuals or an overbearing, tyrannical government.

Ummm. Wildly wrong. In your dreams there might be an idealized "Framers" onto which you project your values to validate your self worth. That has little connection to reality though. The "Framers" owned slaves and created a slave state, and used armed militia to control those slaves. Simple fact. (Too ugly, avert your eyes.) The intent of the Second Amendment must be viewed in context of original intent, and the original intent undeniable existed in context of maintaining the Framer's slave state. Sorry.

http://perqtax.homestead.com/files/perqmilitia1826.html

"A List of that Part of the Millitia Commanded by Elisha Burk and went after the Runaway Negroes..."

[Phillip Allen]

What's a "ranch rifle?"

a handy .30 caliber rifle that shoots something on a par with a 30-30
about the size of the old .30 carbine of WWII fame

very handy for shooting ranches

[Phillip Allen]

Shoots a combination of buttermilk, mayonnaise, salt, garlic, onion.....

Gee thanks, Fred... now I'm hungry

[Paul Pless]

a handy .30 caliber rifle that shoots something on a par with a 30-30
about the size of the old .30 carbine of WWII fame

very handy for shooting ranches

mine's a .223

[Phillip Allen]

mine's a .223

I guess I"m thinking of a Ranch 30? (model names can be a bit confusing at times)... whatever it is, I have a .30 caliber one

[ILikeRust]

I really don't think that the right to bear arms is in the same category as freedom of speech.

How do you defend your fundamental rights, including those of free speech and religion, in the extreme? And if they are not in the same category, why did the authors of the Constitution (and of those of many states) see fit to place them on the same level in their foundational documents?

Arguably a right to self-defence may be, but the right to bear arms describes a means by which self-defence may be expressed

A right to self-defense is meaningless without a way to effectuate it. And it seems reasonably evident that those who drafted and ratified the Second Amendment understood the right to arms as being inextricably related to, inheret with, deriving from, etc., - however you want to say it - a right to self-defense.

[SaltyBoatr]

...the right to arms as being inextricably related to, inheret with, deriving from, etc., - however you want to say it - a right to self-defense.

Did the slaves have a right to arms? Or Indians? NO.

The framers viewed the right to bear arms foremost as necessary to maintain their militia, which was used to control slaves, Indians and criminals.

I grant that this control of slaves and Indians can be termed as a form of civic self defense, but not in a modern sense of the word.

[Wavewacker]

LOL, Bubba has a gun.....that's the only reason I have guns, because Bubba has one and no telling when he gets drunk, ticked off or decides to do something stupid that could involve me. My guns are not to keep politicians honest (if they were, there wouldn't be many politicians left) they aren't to force my government to extend or maintain any of our rights, they are just kept loaded for Bubba who keeps his guns for such reasons and who may act any time using his own best judgment.

And, I'm saving up for my armor platting in my vehicles just for such an accidental discharge......LOL