Kifaru stoves for beach cruiser?

[Desert Sailor]

Look at http://kifaru.net/stoves.html.

Small Stove
Recommended for ParaTipi, 4 or 6 Man Tipi

Specifically designed for a ParaTipi, but also provides a lighter, more compact option for use in the 4 or 6 Man Tipi - though it won't provide as much mid-winter heat as a Medium stove.

		Weight Pipe Length ParaTipi 3 lbs., 1 oz. 48 in. 4 Man 3 lbs., 6 oz. 71 in. 6 Man 3 lbs., 9 oz. 74 in. Accommodates 2 cookpots Assembled Dimensions 7.5" wide X 10.5" long X 7" high 12" overall height Packed Dimensions 10.5" wide, 12" long, 2" thick

I wonder if these might make a suitable stove for an open boat or beach cruiser (Caledonia Yawl, or Welsford Pathfinder) under the tent. Kifaru sells these to go with their tipi tents, which have a reinforced and lined flap through them to accomodate the stovepipe. The same could probably be done to a boom tent.

The smaller models -- the para stove or small stove -- would probably be more than enough to keep the cockpit cozy on a chilly morning. I've seen them work, and they perform pretty much as advertised -- they'll burn just about any solid organic fuel, easy to tend, and put out some nice heat for their size. When you're done, dump the embers (safely) and wait a few minutes -- they cool off quickly. Fold flat and store in their own bag.

I'm considering one of these as my wife just abhors being cold -- one of these on board would provide significant psychological, as well as physical, comfort.
--
Mark

[TerryLL]

Couple problems I see with a wood-burning stove in a small open beach cruiser. After a few uses there will be a problem with the soot, which tends to get into everything. Second, the stove and stovepipe will be hot on every surface, so a tip-over is likely to cause some damage or injury. Third, the fuel is bulky, needs to be relatively dry, and will require foraging ashore, perhaps in areas where shore access is not possible.

I've done a fair share of cruising in an open boat, using a boom tent for sleeping aboard. A small radiant heater with disposable fuel bottles will quickly dispel the chill in a small confined space. Your only serious concern is CO poisoning and death, but that's a risk with any fuel-burning stove in a confined space.

Your best defense against the cold in open-boat cruising is proper clothing, proper raingear, proper boots, and a very good synthetic sleeping bag with a decent pad, and a fitted tent with a good rain fly.

[Desert Sailor]

All valid points, especially the notion of being properly prepared with respect to clothing.

I've seen these stoves in use. Soot is minimal and is largely a function of the fuel you burn. I could see bringing a small supply, to be supplemented with foraged fuel when the opportunity presents itself. A proper setup would be essential, such that the risk of a tip-over would be minimized.

They can put out some serious heat. I saw them demonstrated in a Colorado winter. Guys inside the tipi were in t-shirts when it was in the single digits outside.

Perhaps they are too powerful.

[David G]

All valid points, especially the notion of being properly prepared with respect to clothing.

I've seen these stoves in use. Soot is minimal and is largely a function of the fuel you burn. I could see bringing a small supply, to be supplemented with foraged fuel when the opportunity presents itself. A proper setup would be essential, such that the risk of a tip-over would be minimized.

They can put out some serious heat. I saw them demonstrated in a Colorado winter. Guys inside the tipi were in t-shirts when it was in the single digits outside.

Perhaps they are too powerful.

I think you've nailed it. That's a lot of very hot metal in a small, confined, space. It looks like it could be secured so that wave action wouldn't bounce it into your lap, but what about bouncing you into its lap? If you were talking about a larger, cabin cruiser-type boat, then my ears might pick up. Even then, though, it's always surprising how much warmth and drying even a tiny fire can generate. One example - a friend built a Redwing 18. He ended up fabricating his own wood/briquette stove... which was capable of driving him abovedecks. It was slightly larger than a thermos.

[TerryLL]

One of the best heating devices for a boat tent is a Coleman gas lantern. You not only get lots of heat, but tons of bright light. But again, CO poisoning is a serious risk.

[htom]

No. Great little heater for a tipi. Absolute danger for a boat. The design is predicated on the feet going into the stationary ground. You could drive them into the hull and it might be ok if the boat was frozen into ice, or half-buried in the sand on the shore.

[Desert Sailor]

Maybe just have one for use on shore, but not in the boat.

They are an impressive piece of kit. Well made, function predictably and reliably (once you get the knack of getting a fire started and properly fed). Break down and store in almost no space. The psychological benefit of a wood stove heater at the end of a cold day is hard to overestimate.

[M. J. Notigan]

Desert Sailor,
I have a Phil Bolger Microtrawler that I fitted out with a Dickenson Solid Fuel Heater. It serves it's purpose well. No matter how I try to think about that application in an open boat several things come to mind: 1. It must be a fixed installation. 2. It must have it's stack properly engineered....supported with a proper cap; again, not sure how this could be done in an open boat......
Having said all of that, I've come to the conclusion that there is not really a safe way to operate a wood fuel stove in an open boat if the heater is not permanantly mounted to the structure of the boat, properly vented and exhausted.
I do like the idea of the portable propane radiant heaters to take the "chill" from the accomodations. Maybe a good excuse to build a proper enclosed cuddy cabin around the fixed solid fuel heater???
Take Care,
Mike

[Chip-skiff]

Besides intense radiant heat on varnished or oiled wood (which will outgas) the biggest danger with this sort of stove, which probably won't occur to anyone who has not observed it, is this: to run the stovepipe through the tent canopy requires a "thimble" of heat-resistant fabric or more commonly, steel. In a blow (when you'lll be wanting a lot of heat) the tent canopy will be moving up and down with changes in the wind and the thimble (especially the metal type) can get pushed on an angle and grip the stovepipe. When the canopy springs up, it lifts the stove up and flips it.

This has happened to me twice, both times in large canvas tents. Embers all over and several sleeping bags were ruined.

So, if you want to take a chance, put a reflective barrier between the stove and the woodwork, and use a thimble that leaves a generous space around the stovepipe. You could also bolt the stove feet down to a thwart, or run cables over the stove, I guess. That way the pipe might detach and fly up, but you only have a swirling cloud of hot sparks, not a blizzard of coals.

[Desert Sailor]

Ok, so maybe this wasn't the best idea. But it did generate some discussion.

The Kifaru stove may not be the solution, but the problem still exists. It is not hard to imagine a situation where you're dealing with nasty weather; perhaps suffered a knockdown or capsize on the way into your preferred beach or anchorage. The sun is going down, and the temperature is dropping. You're cold, wet, miserable, maybe borderline hypothermic. The sheltered cove you're headed for is a good anchorage, but the shoreline is not conducive to running the boat up on the beach and camping on solid ground. Having the capability to generate some heat, safely, under your (well-made) boom tent would go a long way to improving crew (spouse) morale, and might possibly be a survival necessity.

Given the comments, the challenges seem to be 1) safe and adequate venting of stack gases (CO poisoning could ruin your whole day), 2) safe/secure/stable mounting within the boat, and 3) proper shielding from nearby combustible surfaces. Did I miss anything?

Perhaps something completely different -- a micro-boiler, oil-fired, that circulates water (could be seawater in a closed loop) through a small radiator. Exhaust gases would likely not be as hot as a wood stove, and you don't have the potential danger from wayward embers. Smaller size would be relatively easy to secure, and heat from a radiator would be less dangerous to surrounding surfaces.

Other ideas?

[htom]

It should remain working safely when inverted or smashed. Whether from a capsize or from someone or something falling on it.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

.....

Other ideas?

Vapalux or tilley lamp - burns relatively safe kerosene - puts out about a kilowatt of heat and a useful amount of light - and I've yet to see a boom tent sufficiently air-tight to make Carbon monoxide poisoning a significant hazard. Propane or propane/butane gas mantle lamps do the same job.

Depressingly regularly some bright spark comes up with the idea of clapping a perforated lid on a disposable charcoal barbeque as a way of warming a tent - some survive, some suffer permanent brain damage, some die.

In any conditions where the water is still liquid once you've broken the wind - dry clothing hot food and a good sleeping bag will see you right.


I know one canadian who swears by the coleman BlackCat propane burning catalytic heater for winter small tent use - but I've never used one.

[Desert Sailor]

It should remain working safely when inverted or smashed. Whether from a capsize or from someone or something falling on it.

The "falling on it" part makes sense. Working when inverted -- I'm assuming you would not have this running when underway, because I'm also assuming an open boat. Are you thinking of the possibility of a capsize or knockdown at anchor?

[Desert Sailor]

In any conditions where the water is still liquid once you've broken the wind - dry clothing hot food and a good sleeping bag will see you right.

I agree; however, I'm toying with the heater idea for the psychological as much as the physical advantages. Most everyone appreciates the mental/emotional comfort that comes from a campfire, fireplace, or woodstove. I'm trying figure out how to replicate that -- safely -- aboard a small open boat.

There's also a lot to be said for the ability to dry out wet clothes overnight while you sleep.

[htom]

The "falling on it" part makes sense. Working when inverted -- I'm assuming you would not have this running when underway, because I'm also assuming an open boat. Are you thinking of the possibility of a capsize or knockdown at anchor?

Yes. You're quietly anchored, and a pair of big-engined fools make wakes that get together to toss your stove in your lap or your gunwale underwater (helped by a tug from the anchor.) I suppose really you want it to shut off if inverted (or even past 60º), but that's really hard to do simply with solid fuel burners, so it's better that it burn so safely.

[James McMullen]

Tell me again why you want the weight and clutter and expense and danger of an open flame device aboard a tiny open beach cruiser? A boat which by definition you can beach on the shore whenever you might want or need a campfire of some kind? I don't think it's appropriate or necessary under any possible circumstances for this sort of boat. I have a Tiny Tot wood stove aboard Phoebe which has a ballast keel and heat shielding around the charlie noble through the cabin roof, but I am utterly bewildered at the appeal of having one on an open boat.

[Desert Sailor]

If we're discussing the Kifaru stove, specifically, then weight and clutter are not issues. Yes, they are pricey. Danger, and its mitigation, is the real issue. The discussion has made it clear to me that a wood-burning stove/heater is probably not a good idea. But there may be a solution using other fuels that could be made safe and effective.

The challenge is that my wife is an admitted wuss when it comes to cold. Knowing that I could make the space under the boom tent cozy and warm after a day of wet and raw would go a long way to persuading her to accompany me.

[James McMullen]

I have found in all seriousness that I enjoy my trips better if I leave Katie behind on the adventurous/challenging/cold ones and have separate trips with her only during sunny/light wind/boring conditions. If you have to persuade someone to go, then maybe they shouldn't necessarily come along. Everyone ends up compromising that way. I enjoy having both shared interests and separate interests with Kate.


I'm afraid I still don't think it's a good idea to have one of those stoves aboard an open boat anyways. Proper gear makes all the difference. With the right clothes, cold and wet doesn't matter so much whether you're ski-camping out in a snow cave or sailing in February in the Salish Sea. Something as small and safe as a candle lantern or an oil lamp to take the moisture out of the air is as much as I'd ever want to deal with. That, or a ballasted cruising boat with a cabin where a stove is safe and appropriate.

[Desert Sailor]

James:

Other than leaving my wife behind, I agree with pretty much all you say. I'm pushing the envelope here, as a thought experiment, to see what ideas the collective wisdom of the Forum might generate. I wouldn't put any source of flame on any boat unless I was convinced of its safety under every imaginable condition.

But my wife is not comfortable outdoors unless she's comfortable. Dry, warm, well-fed, personal hygiene attended to easily and effectively, and physical accommodation such that her knees (or any other body part) aren't in constant pain. She's willing to try, but the burden is on me to make it work. And a warm space at the end of a cold day is definitely an entry on the asset side of the balance sheet.

(Believe it or not, she really likes the SCAMP -- and the build starts next week).

So how can we make this work?

[seedy]

You need a wife boat and a you boat.

[robm]

The Shetland boats Ian O. based the CY upon used to go to sea for 12 - 24 hours at a time. The fishermen would heat food and drink on a small peat fire, maybe contained? But they had no tent overhead, and shingle ballast underneath.

Use a catalytic heater, if you really need one. CO is an issue, be careful! A warm, woolly sweater or 2 or 3 is probably the best and safest way to stay warm.

[seedy]

Another thought...I work outside sometimes in pretty extreme conditions, and have found insulated bottoms to be very helpful with comfort. They keep the blood returning from my legs warm, which makes a nice difference when it hits my torso. REI, EMS, or other outfitters have them, maybe the ski places, they're the leg equivalent of a down parka.

[darroch]

The Kifaru stove may not be the solution, but the problem still exists. It is not hard to imagine a situation where you're dealing with nasty weather; perhaps suffered a knockdown or capsize on the way into your preferred beach or anchorage. The sun is going down, and the temperature is dropping. You're cold, wet, miserable, maybe borderline hypothermic. The sheltered cove you're headed for is a good anchorage, but the shoreline is not conducive to running the boat up on the beach and camping on solid ground. Having the capability to generate some heat, safely, under your (well-made) boom tent would go a long way to improving crew (spouse) morale, and might possibly be a survival necessity.

As soon as you put the tent up you'll start to warm up. It's the wind (no matter how light) that cuts through you, especially when wet. Get the tent up, the wet clothes off, cook a good hot meal, have a hot drink and get into a good synthetic bag. You won't get far trying to warm the air outside your clothes. And remember that for any tent to work well the panels need to be tight. Making a double-walled tent would help as well and, since most of us have to deal with critters, the inside tent could do double-duty - make it out of no see'um mesh netting. Just my two cents.

[Desert Sailor]

As soon as you put the tent up you'll start to warm up. It's the wind (no matter how light) that cuts through you, especially when wet. Get the tent up, the wet clothes off, cook a good hot meal, have a hot drink and get into a good synthetic bag. You won't get far trying to warm the air outside your clothes. And remember that for any tent to work well the panels need to be tight. Making a double-walled tent would help as well and, since most of us have to deal with critters, the inside tent could do double-duty - make it out of no see'um mesh netting. Just my two cents.

Tent design is critical, and once the SCAMP is built I'm sure I'll want to throw that topic out there.

I agree with all of this. Clothes and gear are critical; keeping clothes and gear dry perhaps more so. But the ability to actually warm your space might open up the possiblity of extending the sailing season to some extent.

I've done winter camping in the Rockies, with good clothes and gear. And I've been caught by unexpected weather that left us pretty well soaked at the end of the day -- either from the snow, or from our own exertion. There have been a few times when, even with good preparation, I've been damned glad to be able to dry my clothes overnight with the help of something like a Kifaru stove. I would look at a suitably safe marine alternative (probably not solid fuel) as another layer of preparedness.

Synthetic bags make sense on the water, but I hate the thought of giving up my exceptionally warm down bag...
--
Mark

[jsjpd1]

Wood stove? On an open boat? Not mine, but it's been done.



Jim

[TerryLL]

But my wife is not comfortable outdoors unless she's comfortable. Dry, warm, well-fed, personal hygiene attended to easily and effectively, and physical accommodation such that her knees (or any other body part) aren't in constant pain. She's willing to try, but the burden is on me to make it work. And a warm space at the end of a cold day is definitely an entry on the asset side of the balance sheet.

(Believe it or not, she really likes the SCAMP -- and the build starts next week).

So how can we make this work?

You need to face reality on this one. With such an emphasis on the physical comfort of your passenger you most likely need to forgo the idea of an open camp-cruiser and go with a full-cabin pilot-house design with all the amenities.

There are several people giving you advice on this thread who have extensive experience in open boating in northern waters. The simple truth is that being on the water in an open boat for days or weeks or even months at a time requires a willingness to endure discomfort. You will be wet and cold and hungry and have icy water running down your neck. That's a given. If your wife can't cope with that reality then you need to either keep her out of the elements or leave her home.

[James McMullen]

Terry has it right. All-conditions open boat adventuring requires iron willed determination. Well, either that or a healthy streak of masochism and a fundamental inability to learn from your mistakes. I mean honestly, if we had enough sense to come in out of the cold in the first place. . .

[seedy]

Great photo, Jim.

[Desert Sailor]

Facing reality is the reason for the thread.

My wife enjoys being outdoors, and knows that there will be times when you won't be as comfortable as you could be in your living room. I agree that there are contributors to this thread who have vastly more small-boat cruising experience than I, but I'm not inexperienced. That's reality from where I'm sitting.

I'm not leaving her behind.

On a warm summer day it is possible for the weather to turn unexpectedly, and even with good gear, leave you soaked and miserable. Those of you with mountain camping experience know that it's just as easy to become hypothermic in the summer as in winter. The thesis of the thread, stated as a question, is: is it possible to generate heat in a small open boat, under a boom tent, safely? I suggested the Kifaru stove as a possible solution; several contributors pointed out weaknesses in this approach. Could there be another solution?

I'm sure the collective wisdom of the Forum could generate a few ideas, even if they aren't yet commercially available.
--
Mark

[Old Dryfoot]

Look at some of the heated clothing available, install a beefy 12v battery system to power them. Consider using a pocket warmer or two as a heat source, the refillable ones. Not the chemical throw away type.

[M. J. Notigan]

Something else worthy of consideration is an alcohol heater. Properly secured, of course, these stoves give off about 5000 btus. A drawback to consider is the condensation caused by the burngin alcohol, it is not a "dry" heat like the solid fuel stoves. A plus is that water easily distinguishes the flame........ The "airy" cabin effect that a boom tent affords may help with the condensation issues.

After looking at the many well measured replies to this interesting thread, I'm convinced that the only true way to fight the cold, wet and discomfort encountered would be via a fixed cuddy cabin with an appropriate fixed heater system with a solid fuel, propane or diesel source. A fixed cuddy is psychologically reassuring to someone wet and mildly hyperthermic from the elements.

As a sea kayaker who kayaks year round in all conditions, I might like to add that the appropriate clothing is a must in any cold water sailing. In my case, a gore tex drysuit over top of 2 layers of synthetic thermal wear is comfortable and wicks moisture. Combined with wool socks, a balacava and breathable waterproof gloves, it's just my opinion that any cold water sailing that involves risk of capsize should include this kind of clothing as a hedge.....

Take Care,
Mike

[Desert Sailor]

Proper gear is absolutely critical, and worthy of separate threads for clothing and dry suits. No doubt I could learn something from you sea kayaker types.

The SCAMP (plans and building manual in hand, kit on the way) has a hard dodger/veranda that offers some protection, and it might be possible to approximate the psychological security of a true cuddy with a well-designed boom tent. The stove/heater problem still exists, but I have to think that some creative energy could solve the big risks -- proper venting, stability, and some kind of shutoff in the event of a significant roll at anchor (probably precludes solid fuel). The ideal solution may not yet be commercially available. But imagine the benefits if something the could work safely were, in fact, available.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Getting a wife to come sailing in an open boat is a good trick. BTDTGTTS
Getting one to sleep under canvas is another good trick. BTDTGTTS

Doing the two in one trip - might be asking a bit much.

You might work up to it in easy stages.
1 - Get her day sailing
2 - Get her day sailing two days in a row - spring for the hotel bill overnight and have a complete fresh set of dry gear for day 2.
3 - Spend a night aboard in a marina or dock - with restaurant and shower facilities.
....