wherries as sail boats

[Arko]

So how would you rate wherries as sailing boats? I don't see a lot of them here and see even less in reference to the sailing qualities of wherries. I hope this question isn't too design specific to be answered.

[johnw]

Well it sort of depends on what sort of wherrie you'r talking about. The rowing sort that Chapelle showed in American Small Sailing Craft wasn't rigged for sailing and didn't have much stability. A Norfolk wherrie is a sailing craft with too much beam for rowing. Which sort do you have in mind?

[Arko]

Lets go with the Ducktrap Christmas wherry and the Ducktrap wherry. Modern wherries.

[James McMullen]

Those are sail and oar boats with more of a slant towards the oar side. Like any sail and oar boat, they are compromises. They will sail easily with a moderate rig, but they are not fast, powerful sailers. Likewise, they will row very comfortably at a moderate pace, but are not super fast rowing boats. Anything you would do to modify them to make them better at sailing will make them worse for rowing and vice versa.

I think they are an excellent and versatile sort of boat myself, but if you are mostly keen on sailing and don't care about the rowing aspect then you might prefer a more dedicated sailboat.

[Arko]

Well, the thing is, I am only beginning to learn to sail but I have considerable, not vast, experience rowing. Been rowing my Ross Lillistone FLINT for a few years now and am proficient enough for my waters and area. I am getting tired of always getting us from a to b under my own sweat and would like to take advantage of the free power of the wind. I am considering something like these wherries to be the vehicle.

[Bobcat]

Phil Bolger said that it's better to try to row a sailboat than to try to make a rowboat sail well. I think a wherry would be fine, if you recognize that it's always going to be more of a rowing boat than a pure sailer.

If you're looking to use favor winds and not row, it will be fine.

I bought a canoe sail rig from a guy who used to take his canoe to Baja when he camped here. He would paddle in the calm and then sail home when the wind picked up in the afternoon. He was selling the sail rig because he found that an large umbrella met his needs. He would open the bumbershoot and hook it on the forward thwart. The following wind would fill the brolly and take him back to camp in style

[Arko]

What about something Jims Matinicus double ender from the same designer?

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

If you are just starting out in the sailing game then - here in the UK - the standard piece of advice is:
"Get along to your local dinghy sailing club at the start of the season and sign up for their beginner course".

Followed by:
"And then offer to crew on ANYTHING you get the chance at".

Barrel of laughs - and you'll learn a lot in a very short time.

[Daniel Noyes]

Phil Bolger said that it's better to try to row a sailboat than to try to make a rowboat sail well.

interesting... not sure I agree, but I'm not entirely sure I know what he was trying to say.

Personally I would rather;
sail a sail boat than row a row boat,
sail a row boat than row a sail boat...

rowing is enough like work that if I am going to row I want a good row boat to do it in.

Wherries are nice boats I have a friend who has owned a Simons Lincoville Wherry for several yrs, the boat is around 20 yrs old.
It rows well and slides along at a good clip with a small sprit sail, it is not as fast as a full on sail boat but has a much smaller sail and rig than a sail boat wich is easy to put up and down, with a fair breeze it should slice along at 6-7 mph top speed.

[James McMullen]

Phil Bolger said lots of things. And he was an eloquent enough writer that even some of the stuff he said that wasn't very good gets repeated despite itself. I couldn't agree more with Dan Noyes on this particular issue.

[coucal]

Been rowing my Ross Lillistone FLINT for a few years now and am proficient enough for my waters and area.

You wouldn't try Ross' sailing mods for Flint?



On Alec Morgan's blog there are also images of a Flint with lateen sail and no added daggerboard.

[Gerarddm]

That photo in post 9 doesn't look like a Lincolnville Salmon Wherry to me. The transom is wrong, and they have sawn frames, not bent ribs.

[Arko]

You wouldn't try Ross' sailing mods for Flint?



On Alec Morgan's blog there are also images of a Flint with lateen sail and no added daggerboard.

I could, but then I wouldn't get to build another boat.

[Arko]

If you are just starting out in the sailing game then - here in the UK - the standard piece of advice is:
"Get along to your local dinghy sailing club at the start of the season and sign up for their beginner course".

Followed by:
"And then offer to crew on ANYTHING you get the chance at".

Barrel of laughs - and you'll learn a lot in a very short time.

I would love to be able to do just that. Sadly though, there is just not much of a sailing scene where I am. Well, make that no sailing scene where I am. I want to relocate so bad.

[Arko]

I agree with gerarddm about the "salmon wherry". I think that is actually Walters MDE with the transom option he details in the plans for that boat. Damn fine looking boat, whichever one it is.

[Songololo]

Here's one of Walter Simmons' wherries - can't recall which one:



From Scottishboating blog...

[Songololo]

Found it ... the Christmas Wherry! a post full of info and more pics on Kelpie here...

A teaser:

[Thorne]

As above, why not try rigging your Flint for sail? If building a sail and oar boat is the goal, see if you can decide what percentage Sail / Oar you want, and what sort of conditions and waters you'll be sailing in. If you will be sailing in open waters and may get some weather, then something partially decked may be better than a completely open design. Some designs offer the option of a foredeck and sidedecks, others don't.

I sail a Chamberlain Dory Skiff and sometimes wish it was longer (for both rowing and sailing speeds), and beamier (to keep all that water from pouring in over the gunwales when she heels). But if I need to row in heavy swells or surf (and I've been there) the design is perfect.

[Arko]

Yes, that is his Christmas wherry ( that yellow is something else ). The Christmas was in the Small Boat mag 2007 too. I likes.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

Sorry guys, but to me this is the sort of vessel that has always been a wherry (this is Albion, from 1898) --

... and yes, she sails....

The vessels that have been shown here so far are what I would call various types of skiffs. D:

[davebrown]

Would Oughtred's Acorn be considered a wherry? It has that look, but I don't know if it slims down to that near double ender at the waterline that I associate with a wherry...it has been said that boat is a masterpiece but difficult to sail. I am really attracted to the idea of building one for my little boy, who is two and will no doubt need it by next year, and I have been watching for comments on it...

[johnw]

Sorry guys, but to me this is the sort of vessel that has always been a wherry (this is Albion, from 1898) --

... and yes, she sails....

The vessels that have been shown here so far are what I would call various types of skiffs. D:

This is exactly why I asked what he meant by a wherry.

[Gerarddm]

I bought the plans to build a sail/oar 15' version of the Lincolnville Salmon Wherry in fact, and I hope to build her as soon as I find shop space.

[J.Madison]

I built a Duck Trap Wherry. It rows well and sails adequately. It will go where you need to and if you have two crew aboard can handle things until the whitecaps turn more white than blue. That said it relies on crew for ballast in almost any wind. If the wind is at ten knots you better be sitting square on the rail. At fifteen you wish your crew was a bit heavier. Above that you want two large crew with cat like reflexes. The three of you work the motion of the boat like some kind of dancing troupe and it will tear along nearly flat with only a couple inches of freeboard. Its a fast and wild ride. I'm thinking of a specific time off San Juan Island where the wind was against the current, blowing hard and kicking up a steep 3' chop. After using it in Puget sound and the Columbia river and even sinking it after a death roll gybe (we couldn't get it empty and a wicked current pushed it under a finger pier. Nothing broke, very strong hull.) I can say that this is really a lake boat. On a lake it will be an absolute joy to row in the mornings and sail the afternoon breezes. There is just not enough stability to really feel safe in areas where the waves kick up more than about 2'. The designer does recommend sand bag ballast, but because I don't have flotation I have avoided it. Put flotation in, she does not float high enough to bail out otherwise.

This is an excellent boat for a specific purpose. If sailing across the open bay is what you want then pick another boat. If you want something sleek and refined for calm water then you could do no better. Here she is on a tranquil day on the Columbia.

[bumpus]

I bought the plans to build a sail/oar 15' version of the Lincolnville Salmon Wherry in fact, and I hope to build her as soon as I find shop space.

Just relaunched my 15' Dixon Kemp replica on Lake Union . Ex New Yorker likewise (The natives dont like hearing that . )Feel free to call or stop by . ( no E mail @ the workshop )Robbie /www PlumStudio2.com 206 729 7416

[Ewan G Kennedy]

Nice to come across Uncle Ken and me in the yellow Christmas Wherry sailing past Torsa in May 2010 on our way to the House of the Dogs. This is a great boat to sail, but a heavy one to row. The pictures are on my blog, www.scottishboating.blogspot.com

[Ewan G Kennedy]

Should have posted reference to the actual post, here it is :- http://scottishboating.blogspot.com/...und-torsa.html

[Ben Fuller]

Nothing wrong with having to sit on the high side when it breezes up. Dinghy sailors do it all the time. Good to be rigged for it. My ducker, a fine 50 /50 little boat has a toe strap down the middle and most importantly a hiking stick/ tiller extension made from an old XC ski pole. Good foulies. I can drive her hard in F5, but do have to stop and bail from time to time as no self bailer. Been meaning to rig one and I have an old Elfstrom that would do. I could also rig canvas over the forward half of the cockpit, and have been meaning to do so these thirty years or so. Nice thing about boats like this is that they can hang out under oars when most people decide that the breeze is up too hard to sail. Rowing is also much more fun in the winter when spray freezes.

The decision really is around whether one likes to row, lives in a place where there are extended calms or wiggly creeks to be negotiated.

Ben

[johnw]

Nothing wrong with having to sit on the high side when it breezes up. Dinghy sailors do it all the time. Good to be rigged for it. My ducker, a fine 50 /50 little boat has a toe strap down the middle and most importantly a hiking stick/ tiller extension made from an old XC ski pole. Good foulies. I can drive her hard in F5, but do have to stop and bail from time to time as no self bailer. Been meaning to rig one and I have an old Elfstrom that would do. I could also rig canvas over the forward half of the cockpit, and have been meaning to do so these thirty years or so. Nice thing about boats like this is that they can hang out under oars when most people decide that the breeze is up too hard to sail. Rowing is also much more fun in the winter when spray freezes.

The decision really is around whether one likes to row, lives in a place where there are extended calms or wiggly creeks to be negotiated.

Ben

So, no trapeze or asymetric yet?

[wtarzia]

Well, the thing is, I am only beginning to learn to sail but I have considerable, not vast, experience rowing. Been rowing my Ross Lillistone FLINT for a few years now and am proficient enough for my waters and area. I am getting tired of always getting us from a to b under my own sweat and would like to take advantage of the free power of the wind. I am considering something like these wherries to be the vehicle.

--- Lowell's Boat Shop, the famous dory makers, used to build a narrow rowing dory -- no centerboard or rudder -- but they offered an option for a mast step to raise a downwind sail when that course was possible. I believe these unstayed drop-in rigs were leg-o-mutton for ease of putting up/taking down but do not quote me on that. They were not small rigs, but they were not large either (sorry I cannot be more specific). I imagine such rigs were functional from broadreach to broadreach. They were steered with an oar (reminds me a little of the Duck Punt thread elsewhere -- these dories being proportioned a little like them, though longer, wider, and higher freeboard. You might envision a sailing wherry used like that if you opted for the wherry more optimized for rowing -- you could be sailing it ~30% of a cruise, any way. Row upwind and across, then sail down? (Heck, I sail that way -- beat up wind and run/reach home at day's end). -- Wade

[davebrown]

Thank you Madison for post no. 24. That was a good clear description of the parameters of the boat. As to downwind sails and no centerboards, I learned a lot last summer by taking my skerry out and sailing with no dagger and no rudder, steering oar only. I did that on light air days when I had rowed long enough to feel like I had done a workout and it was a cool, pleasant way to run back up to the dock. It taught me a lot about weight distribution and how trim effects sail. But this is all low performance stuff. It was more academic than usefulness getting from point A to point B.

[Ben Fuller]

So, no trapeze or asymetric yet?

Rig ain't powerful enough, and I am more into sliding seats. Best thing about a toe strap is pulling yourself in. I do have an old blue jay spinny that sets pretty well. And a small parafoil can really help down wind.

[johnw]

Rig ain't powerful enough, and I am more into sliding seats. Best thing about a toe strap is pulling yourself in. I do have an old blue jay spinny that sets pretty well. And a small parafoil can really help down wind.

Now, that's interesting. How are parafoils to set and recover?

[Ben Fuller]

Not hard to set from a rowing boat; you stand up, hold it up it catches the wind. You will want the size that allows you to do that, one of the smaller ones. You will want to lead the line from someplace forward. It can drop in the drink in which case you have a sea anchor recovery. A little more challenging to do all this from a kayak, but I know one person who successfully used one to help seriously on a trip down the Pacific Coast.

[Arko]

Madison, thanks for your first hand assessment of one of the boats in question. I am living back in WV and have access only to a few lakes of 3-4 thousand acres and the Kanawha and ohio rivers so the DTW sounds like a pretty good candidate. My favorite body of water is Summersville lake and over the past few seasons I have been a few sail boats there and it looks as though the winds are fine for sailing. I would love to see more of your boat if possible. Could you PM me or e mail me?
Ewan, a beautiful ( and bright ) Christmas wherry. What are the construction details, if you know them? I know you said it is your uncles boat. Do you know the weight? I assume he used the recommended 3/8" ply for the hull. The Christmas wherry is the one I really, really like and the one I would really like to build. That or the MDE from Ducktrap but the DTW is sweet as well.
I could put in close to my home and sail up the river about 12- 14 miles to the London locks and then row back down the river about 3 miles to Daniel Boone Park to a take out and pick-up with the trailer. The wind always is blowing up the Kanawha against the current. So as far as breaking it down into a percentage of sail/row, maybe 70/30? 60/40? Something like that. Sorry I have not a more specific percentage/usage in mind. As you all can probably tell, I am not the afficianado that most of you are, which is why I come here for help. I do know that I would like to be able to do some overnight to weekend camping from my next boat which is why I was considering the bigger Christmas wherry or the Matinicus Double ender, plus, the Ohio is not a small body of water.
Still trying to decide.

[johnw]

Not hard to set from a rowing boat; you stand up, hold it up it catches the wind. You will want the size that allows you to do that, one of the smaller ones. You will want to lead the line from someplace forward. It can drop in the drink in which case you have a sea anchor recovery. A little more challenging to do all this from a kayak, but I know one person who successfully used one to help seriously on a trip down the Pacific Coast.

We need to develop a helium-filled one.

[Wooden Boat Fittings]

This is exactly why I asked what he meant by a wherry.

Sorry John, missed that.

Everyone else seems to have missed it too....

Mike

[johnw]

Sorry John, missed that.

Everyone else seems to have missed it too....

Mike

Well, he did explain what sort of wherry.

I suppose anything that makes the boat more stable makes it row harder, except flared topsides that allow you to get the crew farther out. Maybe something related to a wherry and a Merlin Rocket?

http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk/

[Ewan G Kennedy]

For Arko - Calling Ken my uncle was just my wee joke, he's only a couple of years older and it winds him up.

I built the wherry, using epoxy-glued lap ply construction and posted about the process here, http://scottishboating.blogspot.com/...as-wherry.html

If you decide to go ahead send me a pm and I'll be happy to help with any further information.

[James McMullen]

Arko, if you're not sure just how much rowing or sailing or whatever you'll enjoy doing, then a versatile boat like the Christmas Wherry is probably an excellent choice. Just build it and enjoy it and gather data for your next boat through using it.


Of course there is a "next boat". Don't be silly. There's always a "next boat". Even Yeadon has finally come to terms with this.

[Andy Mcconkey]

Arko, if you're not sure just how much rowing or sailing or whatever you'll enjoy doing, then a versatile boat like the Christmas Wherry is probably an excellent choice. Just build it and enjoy it and gather data for your next boat through using it.


Of course there is a "next boat". Don't be silly. There's always a "next boat". Even Yeadon has finally come to terms with this.

If you're not planning your next boat while still building your current one then you're altogether lacking as a human being.

[Gerarddm]

Simmon's wherries are derived from hull forms that evolved around going out into open water on the New England seaboard. He advocates ballast if one builds a sail/oar version. I am anticipating that my LSW won't be a strong sailor upwind ( like all double enders due to lack of firmness aft ), but wih her wide plank keel I think she will reach and particularly run like crazy - surf's up! ;-) And I love to hike out.

Plus wherries are usually handsome. The LSW, with that little tombstone transom, I find beautiful.

[T. Traddles]

Of course there is a "next boat". Don't be silly. There's always a "next boat". Even Yeadon has finally come to terms with this.

I think I've missed something here. Has he mentioned the design his is building? Is he building because his 'pod can't keep up with Rowan?

[James McMullen]

Tim's a family man now, with a wife and dog to keep entertained. The fact that Rowan is so blistering fast that the water still hasn't completely filled back into the trough by the time Big Food comes meandering by has very little to do with it.

[johnw]

Here's a possible solution to the problem of a boat that rows well and has enough stability to sail well. Narrow waterline so that you can row it fairly easily, flared sides so you can get your weight outboard, more beam aft than forward. Sit on the centerline and forward while rowing, so you reduce wetted surface and prismatic coeficient while rowing, aft and outboard while sailing to increase stability and prismatic coeficient. This would be just under 16' and would have a waterline beam of about 3'9" sailing two up. give it wide side decks and a double bottom, and a rig like Rowan's, and you'd have a boat that...oh well, I guess you could build a boat like Rowan.

But it's a thought.

[J.Madison]

Madison, thanks for your first hand assessment of one of the boats in question. I am living back in WV and have access only to a few lakes of 3-4 thousand acres and the Kanawha and ohio rivers so the DTW sounds like a pretty good candidate. My favorite body of water is Summersville lake and over the past few seasons I have been a few sail boats there and it looks as though the winds are fine for sailing. I would love to see more of your boat if possible. Could you PM me or e mail me?
Ewan, a beautiful ( and bright ) Christmas wherry. What are the construction details, if you know them? I know you said it is your uncles boat. Do you know the weight? I assume he used the recommended 3/8" ply for the hull. The Christmas wherry is the one I really, really like and the one I would really like to build. That or the MDE from Ducktrap but the DTW is sweet as well.
I could put in close to my home and sail up the river about 12- 14 miles to the London locks and then row back down the river about 3 miles to Daniel Boone Park to a take out and pick-up with the trailer. The wind always is blowing up the Kanawha against the current. So as far as breaking it down into a percentage of sail/row, maybe 70/30? 60/40? Something like that. Sorry I have not a more specific percentage/usage in mind. As you all can probably tell, I am not the afficianado that most of you are, which is why I come here for help. I do know that I would like to be able to do some overnight to weekend camping from my next boat which is why I was considering the bigger Christmas wherry or the Matinicus Double ender, plus, the Ohio is not a small body of water.
Still trying to decide.

Sure, here is some more pics.


At the time I had really no idea how to build a boat. I followed the steps in the pictures CD that is sold with the plans and it came out pretty well. That is another good reason to pick this boat if you are inexperienced in building (not sure if this is the case.) The DTW is the easiest to build in the family, but the LSW or Christmas Wherry might give you a bit better sailing performance. I would guess that the DTW rows the easiest though.









Becalmed and fighting current in the upper Willamette. I seem to always be fighting current.

[fishrswim]

If you're OK with stich and glue, Pygmy Boat Co of Port Townsend has a kit for their Wineglass Wherry that can be built with a centerboard for sailing. It's a pretty boat and rows like a dream. Don't know how it sails tho.

[Arko]

Arko, if you're not sure just how much rowing or sailing or whatever you'll enjoy doing, then a versatile boat like the Christmas Wherry is probably an excellent choice. Just build it and enjoy it and gather data for your next boat through using it.


Of course there is a "next boat". Don't be silly. There's always a "next boat". Even Yeadon has finally come to terms with this.

Thats kinda what I keep thinking James, the Christmas wherry I mean. Then again, the Matinicus Double ender is supposed to be a fine sail/oar boat as well. I satrted with a much more populated list.

[Arko]

Jmadison, Thanks for all the pics, your boat is sweet. Looks like she'll handle more of a load than I thought. Is she 15' or 16'? If you said already, sorry, missed that. I like the sawn frames. Whichever one I finally decide on, I'll go that route for sure. What woods did you use for the thwarts and fromes etc..? Did you document the build here on WBF? If you did you can point me to it and I'll read for myself. I don't remember seeing it though.
fishrswim, I've always loved Pygmy's kayaks and even built one, a QC19. I have never liked the WGW though. It just doesnt grab me the way other boats do. I'm sure it's a fine boat though.
Ewan, you did a heck of a job. Thanks for the link. I'm going a readin.

[J.Madison]

Mine is a 16'. It is basically the same amount of work to build from 14' to 17' so I just went with the designed length. The planking is glued lap maranti plywood. Frames, spars and longitudinal members are doug fir. Thwarts are western red cedar. All the wood except the plywood was milled from my property. Oh and the transom is red maranti from a decking supply company. I would go with a real mahogany if I was doing it again. I did not make a thread on here for the construction. I thought it was going to be a three month project and it ended up taking me 2.5 years. I was out of state and out of the country for a lot of that time but it is still worth noting how far off I was. I could probably build one in an ambitious three months of evenings and weekends now, but I certainly couldn't then.