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Thread: Oughtred's double-ended yawls

  1. #1
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    I am looking for info or advise regarding Iain Oughtred's beautiful double-ended yawls. I am reading his clinker ply boatbuilding manual and getting myself geared up to start building.

    Ready to buy plans, but which one? ....JII Yawl? ... Ness Yawl? ....Caledonia Yawl?

    I like the smaller JII, but have not been successful at finding pictures or info on this boat.

  2. #2
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    Aren't they beautiful [img]smile.gif[/img]

    Search the WB archives and you will find a few double enders here. I'm (slowly) building a yawl version of his Whillyboat, Don Olny has a Ness Yawl.

    Also look at this page
    http://www.duckflatwoodenboats.com/m...gallery?KID=34

    Cheers

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    Thanks Greg H for the link. Great help. Enjoyed the pictures and caught my first sight of the J II yawl. Beautiful hull!

    I am new to the forum, and am finding more and more info each day.

    I recently read that Iain has redesigned and renamed some of his double-enders. I will continue to do my research and perhaps send him a letter and money towards a fresh design catalog (if it exists?).

    Thanks again and good luck with your Whillyboat!

  4. #4
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    Yippee another doublended yawl thread
    can't get enough

    [ 10-31-2003, 03:30 PM: Message edited by: gert ]
    the wall on which I keep hitting my head is getting harder

  5. #5
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    I have new, unused Whillyboat plans available. I'm told that Ian Oughtred has drawn up a gunter yawl rig for it...
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  6. #6
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    Here is a Ness......by one of our forumites

    oh yeah.....

    Welcome Kashton, Only requirment here is pictures .....also beware of the bilge

  7. #7
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    I found a very interesting thread:
    "Bulletin! New Iain Oughtred Desings!"
    Posted on 10/20/03.

    Has links to Imagestation.com album with what looks like an Iain Oughtred Autumn '03 newsletter.

    I found the following topics very interesting:

    -Watercraft magazine article comparing JII and Ness Yawl ... (anyone out there have this?)
    -JII being revised, now = Arctic Tern
    -Whilly Boat, now = Little Tern
    -Ness Boat, now = Tirrik

    Quote: "..these new names also emphasize that these are completely new designs."

    It sounds like Iain's recent efforts with his double-ender redesigns are focused on making them less tender and leaning more toward sailing performance and less toward rowing performance.

    I wonder what he is up to? ... beamier design?

  8. #8
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    Did you see the new Oughtred group on Yahoo?

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/oughtred

    I'm helping my 13 year old son build Iain's faering Elf, and I'm in the planning stages of building my dream boat - Eun Mara.

    Steven

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    Oh yeah, have you been to these forums?

    Go here Crazybird and click on Discussion.

    Steven

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    Kashton -

    I'm smitten by these boats too. I have found a few things on the web:

    This one apparently shows the building of Iain's own JII.

    Here's someone's photos of building a JII in their garage.

    Here is a German(?) site about a JII. (At least translating from German with Babelfish enabled me to get the jist of it.)

    Looks like Iain won a race in his JII.

    Here's a similar boat for sale. And some commentary.

    This was an article about sailing with Iain in his Ness Yawl. It seems to have disappeared - hopefully it's not gone for good.

    As Greg mentioned, Don Olney built a beautiful Ness Yawl. If you search the forum you should be able to find a link to photos. Likewise, Venchka has a brand new CY and has posted some photos.

    I see you're in Seattle. The Center for Wooden Boats has a Caledonia Yawl you might be able to take out for a sail.

    Has anyone else out there found any relevant links?

    Tough to decide among such beautiful boats. Keep us posted.

    - John

  11. #11
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    Which one? Depends. Where will it be sailed? How many folks and how much stuff on board? How important is rowing? How important is a motor? How much do you want to spend? One-footitis coupled with doubleenderitis can be a terrible and wonderful thing. Terrible for the wallet. Wonderful for the soul when the project is complete. Having said that, I doubt that there is $1,000-$1,500 difference in materials, sails and trailer for these 3 boats.

    As you mentioned the 3 largest of the lot, seaworthyness probably isn't an issue. Capacity may be an issue. I asked Iain the same questions and came away from the discussion with plans for the Caledonia yawl. I wanted a boat that I could pile 4 adults and 2 rapidly growing grandkids in. For the record, the Caledonia yawl's D.W.L. displacement is 1,300 pounds. Iain suggests a waterline at 1,100 pounds. I didn't find that out until I had the plans in front of me.

    SIDEBAR: Is it just me, or is capacity information like "1 to 3 adults" a totally useless and potentially dangerous piece of information? Designers reading this: Please list capacity in the proper terms-Safe Working Cargo. Or, give us the weight of the boat in sailing trim on the trailer (so we can buy the right trailer) and the boat's D.W.L. displacement. Most of us can do that math. End of rant.

    Rowing is best done with the JII (Artic Tern) and Ness yawl. Just remember that rowing performance comes at the expense of beam. I read this somewhere a long time ago and it's very true, "If you want a bigger boat, buy one a foot wider instead of 5 feet longer." The Caledonia yawl is much bigger than her little sisters. I find that to be a good thing. You may not. There is also a "95% Ness yawl" and a "7 strake per side" Caledonia yawl option from Iain. A motor is a pain for any of these boats to accommodate. It can be done. It just takes some thought and ingenuity.

    I almost forgot. Iain is very generous with information. Write to him. Ask him for magazine article re-prints and any information he has on the boats you are interested in.



    The Caledonia yawl Elisabeth Grace. Sorry folks. I couldn't help myself.
    Wayne
    Somewhere in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The Straight of Georgia looks big.
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/ven...isabeth+Grace/
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/venchka/

  12. #12
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    Greg H,
    Thanks for the great "Ness" pic on this thread .... nice boat!

    Steven.Bauer,
    Loved the Crazybird website ... thanks!

    LongJohn,
    Wow! ... your contribution made my day ... great links, very inspirational. I have visited the Caledonia Yawl at Seattle's "Center for Wooden Boats" several times. I often go down there just to walk around and drool on the boats. I will look into the membership and perhaps take her out for a sail on Lake Union. I seem to remember that she looked a bit worn and was carring a conventional tiller. That led me to believe that she has no mizzen (shameful).

    Venchka,
    Elisabeth Grace is beautiful! I saw all your pictures on the "imagestation" album. Congratulations on the launching and enjoy! I'm sure at some point you were contemplating the same questions that I am right now.

    My first priority is looks, and all of Iain's D.E.ers pass this test. It will most likely take
    me several years and thousands of dollars to complete. I will be looking at the hull a lot! I sure as hell better like what I see. That's the main reason for me bailing on the stitch & glue world and becoming an Oughtred-ite.

    My second priorty is sailing performance. I must have a mizzen and a jib for control/balance/options etc. etc. I must have enough beam to carry a novice along without freaking them out too much. The Whilly seems the easiest to build/launch/row, but my gut tells me that it will be a bit too tender for two ... (ideal though, for single handed fun in the sun ... in style!)

    The JII (Arctic Tern) seems to fill all my own personal requirements, and I love the extra strakes. But you've now got me thinking about a Caledonia Yawl with 7 strakes!! What next? ... I might as well go all the way! ... Eun Mara ... here I come.

    O.K. .... reality check time ... slow down ... think simple, easy launch, easy storage, frequent sailing. The head game never ends. Scale up the project ... scale down the project.

    Anyway ... thank you Venchka (aka Wayne) for photo's, inspiration, and advise.

    Ciao!

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by kashton:
    My second priorty is sailing performance. I must have a mizzen and a jib for control/balance/options etc. etc. I must have enough beam to carry a novice along without freaking them out too much.
    Thank you!

    Hmmmmmmmmmmm......I can't presume to be anything close to an expert and Nick Granger sure swears by the gunter rig on Crazybird...but

    Lifting the foremast from it's cradle and slipping it into the mast partners in all of about 15 or 20 seconds and she's ready to go. The mizzen's the same for both rigs-no advantage/disadvantage there. The foremast can be used alone. Very nicely I would add. OK, I'll admit that someday, somewhere, I may really need the ability to sail with jib and mizzen. If that becomes a pressing need, I'll add the third mast step and all the other complications...maybe not.

    Suit yourself. It's your boat. You can hardly go wrong either way.

    As for stability, my buddy who was along for the launching and first sea trials has to be the least boat comfortable person I've ever had aboard any boat. He found a spot on the floorboards leaning against the forward bulkhead and enjoyed the ride.

    Funny. Of the boats you mentioned originally, only the Caledonia yawl has the sailplan you "must have." My catalog is old. Maybe Iain has added new sailplans. Has anyone seen photos of his personal JII? What sailplan? I know he rigged his personal Ness yawl with the balanced lug main & mizzen. They all work!

    The best part of all? You won't have the other two boats to compare with on the water. The boat you choose will be perfect!
    Wayne
    Somewhere in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The Straight of Georgia looks big.
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/ven...isabeth+Grace/
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/venchka/

  14. #14
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    I seem to remember that she looked a bit worn and was carring a conventional tiller. That led me to believe that she has no mizzen (shameful).
    Kashton -

    When we were visiting Seattle last spring, we went to the Sunday afternoon "public sail" (or whatever it's called). It was beautiful, sunny and breezy and about 30 others showed up too. The big whaleboat was already full, but we got lucky - a couple of members were rigging the CY and offered to take us out. We sailed for an hour and a half or more as the breezes changed to gusts and the rain came in and the wind faded to a whisper. I was able to take the helm for several tacks across the lake and helped tweak the rig a couple times as well.

    It certainly isn't a gleaming showpiece like Wayne's, but it sailed wonderfully. Tanbark sails: loose-footed lug main, and sprit mizzen. Push-pull tiller - which was confusing at first, but quite effective. It handled gusts by heeling a bit, heading up a bit, and taking off. Tacking into the faint breeze back to the dock she ghosted along nicely and made good progress. When we reached the Center's docks, our skipper waved off the offers of a line and was able to make several very short tacks into the wind and between the docks to sail right up to the building.

    Nice boat, but I'm also inclined to think that the JII is the right size for me (although I kind of prefer the wider-strake look of some of the others).

    - John

  15. #15
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    Has anyone seen photos of his personal JII? What sailplan?
    Wayne -

    From Sail Caledonia:



    "Jeanie II is Iain Oughtred's own boat designed and built for the 2002 Great Glen Raid in which he excelled. Iain is internationally renowned for his traditionally inspired designs for light-weight glued ply boats many of which are based on Shetland lines.

    Jeanie II is GŁnter rigged and rowed easily by one man. Her normal crew is two."

    - John

  16. #16
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    John,

    You just gave me a great reason to go visit "The Center's" Caledonia Yawl again. This time, I will find someone down there who can show me just exactly what kind of shape she is in and how she is currently set up to sail. I enjoyed the great description of your visit and sail on Lake Union. I have spent many hours out there sailing my first boat(plastic "Holder 14"). I never get bored of the chaos ... boats everywhere, city skyline, seaplanes landing and taking off, wild winds that follow the hills and hit the lake from all directions.

    I recently sold my second boat Catalina 22' (good times, but tired quickly of trailering the big plastic beast, and moorage $$ was killing me). I also have a laser that I will keep forever (or, as long as my body stays limber enough to sail it).

    My current thinking is that a Caledonia Yawl with three mast steps and an outboard motor well would do just about anything that my heart would desire in our local waters.
    This would include some days out fishing and leaving the main (sail, spars, rigging) at home. I am guessing that she would sail (or motor sail) quite well with just jib and mizzen.
    Any thoughts out there on this arrangement for the Caledonia Yawl?

    I expect that the motor well will be a building challenge. On sailing days when the motor is left at home, how does that nasty square hole get plugged? ... or affect performance? Iain's book only briefly covers motor wells.

    Hey ... I just picked up the latest issue of Woodenboat (#175). The launchings section (pg. 93) has Iain's Jeanie II. Does not look like this one was built as yawl. Definitely rigged for racing.

  17. #17
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    Last time I was at the CfWB, the Caledonia was out of service for maintainence. Their particular boat also has a severe weather helm problem they have been unable to cure. There is some suspicion that the original builder did the rudder to the wrong plan or otherwise got it wrong somehow, but I don't know the accuracy of that. I did some research for them to see if it could be figured out, but it was inconclusive.
    If you don't think for yourself, someone else will do it for you!

  18. #18
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    Kashton -

    Sailing on Lake Union was definitely a unique experience for me - I'm more used to quiet northern lakes with little traffic. The way the wind was channelled by the buildings and the seaplanes coming and going and big boats to watch out for .... I can only imagine what it might be like on a July Saturday. It was a bit surreal sailing this ancient looking boat amongst the skyscrapers and plastic floating palaces surrounding the lake.

    Living in Seattle, I'd think the CY would be a good choice - big enough to explore the nooks and crannies of the Sound and a lot of other beautiful spots along the coast.

    Meer -

    Last March the CWB CY seemed a bit worn but in reasonably good repair. Our skipper did set the mizzen fairly slack (maybe 30-40 degrees), and when I asked him why he didn't trim it tighter he said that it sailed better that way - that would certainly reduce weather helm. We also re-rigged the mainsail's tack attachment while underway. We began with it running down behind the mast thwart and tied off to the mast below the thwart, but switched it to in front of the thwart. This improved the set of the sail and would have had some effect on helm balance. It also has a loose-footed main which does not seem common on on other CY's - so that may not have been considered when determining mast placement. Now that I think about it, I seem to remember Bolger suggesting (in his 101 rigs book) that a loose-footed sprit rig tends to pull the boat from the bend in the main sheet and therefore doesn't necessarily balance at the calculated COE. If you're still involved with that boat and helm balance really does seem to be a problem, then maybe that would be something to look at.

    At any rate, rigged and trimmed as described, I definitely didn't feel that I needed to fight the helm: the push-pull tiller doesn't have a lot of leverage, but it didn't take more than a light touch to keep it on course.

    - John

  19. #19
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    Originally posted by kashton:
    ...My current thinking is that a Caledonia Yawl with three mast steps and an outboard motor well would do just about anything that my heart would desire in our local waters.
    Three foremast steps indicates (to me at least, plans in hand) that you would have a balanced lug main AND the sliding gunter main + jib? PLUS the appropriate mizzen (they differ slightly) for either foresail arrangement? That's a lot of spars, canvas and hardware.

    As for the motor well, good luck! Sealing the hole is definitely the major hurdle. The well works best in the open plan. When I decided to build the decked version, it became obvious that the well would create a dead space that I couldn't get to easily. One idea I kicked around in my brain for closing the hole involved one of those plastic screw ports like you see in dinghy flotation tanks. They are available in 8" and 10" diameters. It might be possible (make a full size mock-up) to mount one of these in the garboard for the propeller to go through. Shim the port flange and fill the water side of the part that screws in and out so that the surface of the port is flush with the the garboard. Build the well around it. Port uncrewed-motor in. Motor out-port screwed in. Clear as mud, right? Actually, they are called deck plates at the bottom of page 154 in the Hamilton Marine Catalog.


    Round Deck Plates
    Wayne
    Somewhere in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The Straight of Georgia looks big.
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/ven...isabeth+Grace/
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/venchka/

  20. #20
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    As far as putting in a well goes, is there any reason why you can't just put in a double box? ie a box is built to fit inside the well with the bottom of it being faired flush with the hull.

    That's what I'll be putting in Gwenda, but she probably won't have an outboard - she'll just acquire or borrow one when necessary - eg river or canal voyages.

    For more frequent use it's difficult to arrange without a lot of drag. The bottom of the box can have a cutout to take the outboard leg, and a fairing piece can be attached to the cavitation plate on the leg, so the installation is a bit like a saildrive. A folding prop would be a nice touch, but however you look at it it's still a lot of drag.

    Personally I think Ian's smaller boats are just perfect for an electric trolling motor. There's a good article in an old WB about fitting the drive off a trolling motor into a rudder.

  21. #21
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    For occasional motor use, why not mount it off to the side with a removable thwart - like this:



    - John

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    John,

    Nice picture and option for the motor!

    Lake Union is certainly a unique sailing experience on a busy warm July Saturday. I used to work at Kenmore Air Harbor (nearby seaplane base). On several occasions, I had the opportunity to ride shot gun on the seaplanes when they flew into Lake Union. What a trip! The pilots would say that they don't even look at, or even try, to dodge the sailboats as they approach. They know that everyone will be in a different place by the time they get really close to touch down. They just come screaming in, and then "wing it" in the final moments. You shoot the approach like you will miss, but then, seem to find that little slot at the last moment. Very exciting!

    Venchka,

    Very good point about the additional spars, canvas and hardware. Am I making a false assumption that the mizzen is identical for the lug and gunter rigs? The lug vs. gunter debate is a tough one. I must admit that I really like the jib option. On the other hand I think that three sails is silly for a 19+ foot boat. Perhaps the best solution for me is to put the effort and money into the balanced lug rig for "real" sailing days. In addition to this, I could construct a simple second "main" step for throwing only a jib. This would be used for days that I want to leave the main and it's rigging at home and do some "half-assed" sailing or motor-sailing with friends. It seems like this could be great fun for days when you want to bring out four adults, or do some fishing, or whatever? What do you think? Could this work?

    I am most curious about how well the mizzen on the C.Y. actually performs. I've never sailed with one before. I am very excited about trying out all the "tricks" that this little sail can do for you (balance, trim, etc. etc.)

    Anyone out there have some solid experience with the C.Y. and it's lovely mizzen?

    Aramas,

    Sounds interesting! I like the way you think. Going electric would be a blast! Venchka wrote earlier that the "motor is a pain" ... and "takes some thought and ingenuity." I think this must be very true on this boat. Looks like you are cleverly thinking outside the box ... with your double box.

    Thanks for the tip!

  23. #23
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    I can't wait to try a boat with a mizzen either I hope my calculations are correct

    Ian's boat building manual has a picture of a double box for the well. I've toyed with the idea, but I figure even though I've stretched mine to 15.5 feet, an extra hole seems like over kill. I like the extra thwart with an electric trolling motor idea, though. If I can figure out where to put the battery.

    [ 11-04-2003, 07:35 AM: Message edited by: Greg H ]

  24. #24
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    Originally posted by LongJohn:
    For occasional motor use, why not mount it off to the side with a removable thwart - like this:



    - John
    Nice idea-I used one on my first boat. Won't work on Iain's larger boats. By the time you get far enough aft to span the gunwales even a long shaft motor isn't long enough. Bill Boyd in Yarmouth, ME used a slightly different canoe motor mount through a slot in the lower edge of his sheerstrake and a 2hp Honda. I've got pictures somewhere, I'll dig them up and post them at Imagestation.

    Concentric box seems to work. I've got pictures of one of those on a Houdini. Same deal as above-when I get a Round Tuit.
    Wayne
    Somewhere in Texas

    Quote Originally Posted by Yeadon View Post
    The Straight of Georgia looks big.
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/ven...isabeth+Grace/
    http://gallery.leica-users.org/v/venchka/

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