Inshore Fishing Lugger part 3; lugsails, sail area and rig.

[robert666]

I decided right from the start that this boat would have 2 masts with a lugsail on at least one of them. Traditional working boats of this type carried a dipping lug foresail and standing lug mizzen, both boomless and low aspect ratio.

The advantages/features of this rig where;
1. masts where out of the way of the working area at either end of the boat.
2. large sail area for light winds that could easily be lowered or reefed for high winds.
3. low aspect ratio sails, large area set on short masts that are easily struck and stowed when not needed.
4. symplicity, no standing rigging only halyards belayed to windward.
5. no booms to endanger fishermen
6. yawl rig combined with long keel gives self steering

The only downsides of this rig that I can see are the dipping lugsails' cumbersome and dangerous tacking single handed and the lack of down wind spread with boomles sails. The first of these can be fixed with a standing lugsail and the second with a whisker pole for long downwind runs. several recent plans feature the option of a standing lugsail yawl rig, but they all seem to have high aspect ratio sails like those of the salty heaven by mikey floyd;

Mr Vievers Ebihen design has a more traditional shape to its sails;

These lugsails also have verticle or aft raking luffs and mast wheras traditional standing lugsails have plumb masts and forward raking luffs;

The tack positions of all three sails varies as does the type of mizzen. Of the three optional rigs shown, the third rig seems to fit with my hull profile (almost identical too that shown with the rig) better, but looks like it might lack sail area for light going and I'm not too keen on the forward raking luff. The Ebihen rig has a pleasing profile and the tack forward of the mast loooks better on paper but not when sailing on the bad tack and somehow doesn't fit my hull profile asthetically. The salty heaven rig has a much higher aspect ratio, will this actually make much difference to windward or just add mast length and weight aloft? it does however have more luff length for reef points. what about the type of mizzen, is a lugsail worth the extra spar on such a small sail? Any advantage to a mast set a foot further aft and a jib set with a bowsprit? what rig would you choose and why?

Also how much sail area would you give a 17ft by 5ft 7.5'' hull with a draft of 2ft 4'' and a displacement of 1.25 tons with a moderately deep v hull form.

Robert

[James McMullen]

Have you ever looked at Tom Jackson's NoMan'sLand boat, Robert? He probably has some similarities with your boat you will find useful.


As for me, my lugger is much, much, much lighter than your design, so the desired sail area likely isn't really comparable. I am very happy with the handiness of my balance lug.

[Peerie Maa]

The tack positions of all three sails varies as does the type of mizzen. Of the three optional rigs shown, the third rig seems to fit with my hull profile (almost identical too that shown with the rig) better, but looks like it might lack sail area for light going and I'm not too keen on the forward raking luff. The Ebihen rig has a pleasing profile and the tack forward of the mast loooks better on paper but not when sailing on the bad tack and somehow doesn't fit my hull profile asthetically. The salty heaven rig has a much higher aspect ratio, will this actually make much difference to windward or just add mast length and weight aloft? it does however have more luff length for reef points. what about the type of mizzen, is a lugsail worth the extra spar on such a small sail? Any advantage to a mast set a foot further aft and a jib set with a bowsprit? what rig would you choose and why?

Also how much sail area would you give a 17ft by 5ft 7.5'' hull with a draft of 2ft and a displacement of 1.25 tons with a moderately deep v hull form.

Robert

Try changing the mizzen to a larger standing lug. You can then fit a bowsprite for a jib to give you more light wind power, balance the mizzen, and easy sail area reduction. The sloping luff on the main is not a problem in my eyes.

[skaraborgcraft]

A dipping lug is a great reaching sail,but not one i would choose. The Ebihen rig with optional bowsprit and jib is a favourite of mine, with two main mast positions (or two different size mizzens) you have the option of downing the main and jigging/drifting under full control with jib and mizzen. The engineless 40ft Looe Lugger "guide me" would happily sail down river and amongst very crowded moorings under jib and mzzen,and although 70ft length over spars,she could back and turn with this rig. Its good to have options,and an unstayed bowsprit is quite possible to keep things simple.

[P.I. Stazzer-Newt]

Try changing the mizzen to a larger standing lug. You can then fit a bowsprite for a jib to give you more light wind power, balance the mizzen, and easy sail area reduction. The sloping luff on the main is not a problem in my eyes.

As you're in the area - the Loch Fyne herring boats used a bowsprit and jib - and I believe, were known as quick and effective boats.
http://stbf.bizland.com/2007/formidable.htm << look at "Clan Gordon".

Though - no mizzen....


http://boatbuilders.jalbum.net/New%2...e%20Skiff.html Slideshow of one being built in Tarbert.

[skaraborgcraft]

old school guide was to use 100sq ft per ton of displacement, so around 125sq ft. Of course, its nice to be able to set more and have a good reefing system, or in this case(if you choose to have a jib also) two mizzens and jibs of matched areas but one set smaller than the other for winter work. Modern designs will have far more area for the displacement,good for "performance" , maybe not ideal for a working craft. I would go for the biggest standing lug you are comfortable handling,with a mizzen and jib. Im guessing you want to use a boomless mainsail?

[robert666]

I have found a few pictures of tom jacksons boat but not a lot else.

Loch fyne skiffs are very good sailing boats and easy to handle, however they were used for ring netting which doesn't involve lots of stopping and lying head to wind like working creels or lines does. Loch Fyne is aslo a lot more sheltered from waves than where I sail.

I had thought around 125 sq ft in main and mizzen rig (working/winter) with maybe 150-160 with main, mizzen and jib for summer and light winds. definately boomless sails.

Robert

[James McMullen]

Well that's interesting. I would say myself that definitely, most definitely, without a question, you really, really want booms on your sails, especially if you are going to be sailing shorthanded. Boomless are always a chore and a hassle to get to set properly anytime off the wind. They require a lot more tending. But maybe you'll usually sail with crew.

[Tom Jackson]

I can't say that I've had any problem with my boomless main, although it doesn't have nearly the spread that this sail has. This sail is going to be a bear to tack. You may end up, as in times of yore, having to drop it entirely, shift it around, and raise it again. Another option is a peak halyard, which allows the main halyard to be cast off entirely, taking the yard to vertical. I thought I kind of invented that idea, which I use in my boat, but Phil Bolger wrote about it in a back issue of WoodenBoat (check the index for Bolger dipping lug).

At a minimum, I think you're going to want to pole the sail out. That's also a lot of sail off center going downwind.

I've described it on other threads here, but my sail is set up as a kind of hybrid. In tight quarters, I rig it as a standing lug. For long boards, I dip it and set the tack to the stemhead.

[robert666]

The cornish luggers dipped the peak of the yard around the front of the mast with the tack remaining fast to the stemhead.

I will be using a standing lugsail probably like the last sailplan shown, it needs to be boomless because I will be stood amidships when fishing. Whisker pole (boathook?) was planned anyway.

I will draw some sail plans based on what I have decided so far to see what people think, they will be something like;
1. a working / winter rig of 125sq ft with lug main ~100sq ft and jibhead mizzen ~25sq ft as in the bottom sail plan in the OP.
2. a summer / passage making rig of 160-170sq ft with lug main ~ 100sq ft with lug mizzen and jib on bowsprit.

Robert

[Peerie Maa]

The cornish luggers dipped the peak of the yard around the front of the mast with the tack remaining fast to the stemhead.

The Beer luggers, which is an active racing class still do.

Well nearly

[robert666]

I have been thinking this through for a while now, trying to figure out how the sails will interact with the working area of the boat. I keep coming back to the mainsheet, there seems to be four options for the sheeting of boomless sails;

1. a single sheet that is transfered from side to side when tacking
2. double sheets like a headsail
3. a horse across the transom infront of the mizzen mast
4. a sheet that leads from one side of the transom, through a block on the sail and down to the other side of the transom

2. and 4. are ruled out because of the extra ropes in the way.

3. would make varying the sheet lead to suit reefs difficult and 1. would only be possible with a single part sheet.

Would it be possible to vary the angle of the sheet lead to a horse with an adjustable tack downhaul?

or

Would a single part sheet be enough for 100sqft of boomless lugsail? I have tacked larger headsails with single part sheets and no winches, it was just a matter of timing.


Robert

[skaraborgcraft]

I have a single sheet on my sprit rig snipa. Some similar boats have a rope horse fitted with a wood block. Having a small steering thwart aft means any sheet across the boat is a real pain as in this boat its just completely in the wrong place, double sheets would be just as restrictive. The single sheet set up works well,though im not sure about a much larger sail, though you could use a blocked double tail with a rope loop on the bottom block and transfer that across when tacking,just make sure the loop is big enough to catch the sheet hook easily. I use small block downhauls for trim purposes on headsails and wherever i need to shape a sail better,they work well.

[robert666]

I have been rather busy with Uni work the last few weeks, but managed to do some sail plan work and model building. I have scaled off the dimensions and areas of the sails in the dixon kemp sailplan, I think it will be best to avoid the complecations of a jib and bowsprit for now. I think the sail area might be a bit much but this is an engineless sail and oar boat, and needs plenty of sail for calms.



The hull C.E is very close to where it is on my hull.

Robert

[keyhavenpotterer]

John Leather's book "Spritsails and Lugsails" shows a Dover fishing punt 'Argonaut' 16ft 6 in x 5ft x 2ft 2 ", with lines similar to that shown. Its dipping lug foresail was 103sq ft and standing lug mizzen 28 sqft.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Gavin at http://intheboatshed.net/2012/03/21/...te-model-boat/ has just written about a project in Cornwall all about designing, building and fishing a small inshore lugger. probably well worth reading through.

http://teachmanfish.wordpress.com/news/

[Sailing Dreams]

I've been reading up on the new Lugger design and the objective of sustainable fishing in Portscatho, not least as we're in Cornwall currently, Si the designed makes some interesting comments on the Heard Tosher, but claims that weight would be an issue for handling, I did wonder whether weight might not be an advantage for a stable fishing platform! The pic above (thanks keyhaven) is the first time I've had a good look at the half model, the lines look modern, the hard turn to the bilge offering good from stability and relatively flat run aft.

It will be interesting to see if the trade off of displacement translates to good performance, less sail area etc and a good fishing platform

[robert666]

Thanks for those links, one thing that I wan't to do with my Marine Science degree that I'm currently studying is to try to promote sustainable small scale fishing on the West Coast of Scotland, it used to be the very life blood of local villages but is now almost extinct. I feel more confident knowing that other people have come up with very similar ideas.

Robert

[keyhavenpotterer]

Thanks for those links, one thing that I wan't to do with my Marine Science degree that I'm currently studying is to try to promote sustainable small scale fishing on the West Coast of Scotland, it used to be the very life blood of local villages but is now almost extinct. I feel more confident knowing that other people have come up with very similar ideas.

Robert

Check out Watercraft magazine Jan/ Feb 2008. It had an article about the 20ft long St Ives Jumbo being built by Jonny Nance.





Boats in the bay Video:

<a href="http://vimeo.com/6569742" target="_blank">http://&lt;iframe src="http://player.vi...gt;.&lt;/p&gt;


http://stivesjumbo.com/

http://stivesjumbo.com/page8.htm

[Peerie Maa]

John Leather's book "Spritsails and Lugsails" shows a Dover fishing punt 'Argonaut' 16ft 6 in x 5ft x 2ft 2 ", with lines similar to that shown. Its dipping lug foresail was 103sq ft and standing lug mizzen 28 sqft.

My family fished a herring punt nearly identical to Argonaut from Margate. They were two man boats, fairly flat in the floor, used for setting and fishing a fleet of herring nets. They did not fish far from Margate, so were carriers rather than quick and light.