Teak Deck Questions

[ramillett]

Chris , working on decks shouldn't slow you're sailing down Notice the Detco

[boattruck]

ccolton, It does look like your overlay teak deck is about done, but with some elbow grease and 'knee time' you can fix what you absolutely have to and limp along for a few years, replace the worst planks, sink the fastening deeper, re-cut the seams and pay as needed( for this chore, we use a small trim saw with a few blades stacked together to cut the seams almost down to the glass, far more controllable than a router etc., although still quite a handful, and not at all for the faint of heart! ) the only down side will be chasing any leaks that develop as they do and dealing with them before they do any damage below! We have done a few overlay teak decks in the style of Teak Deck Systems, where the whole thing is built, and installed as a unit, if you are handy, thoughtful and careful, you could do the same when the time comes to replace it, a Swan is hardly a Swan with out her teak deck in my opinion...Do get out and do some sailing, life is short! Cheers, Steve/BT

[crtreedude]

I noticed the same thing, but couldn't believe Swan would do such a thing. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes. I've watched this thread with some interest. I've seen similar problems on other boats, always with the culprit being weathering, age, and grain misalignment. Depending on the overall shape of the boat and the owner's taste/pocketbook (which don't always match, of course) I'd go with removing the overlayment and reglassing or replacing the teak with vertical grain stuff of the same dimensions. If I went with teak, I would be inclined to replace it exactly the way Swan did it originally. I'd stay away from the WEST System technique. I've seen it done and it ain't anywhere near as easy as their book makes it look!

Living in the tropics, I can tell you that sawing is very unsophisticated. I am trying to change that with our own sawing, but then again, I am going to have to charge a little more (not a lot) to result in a much better product. I doubt people will mind since the result will be so much better. Then again, teak in country is going for roughly 2.00 USD per BF here. I suspect you all spend a bit more. Standing, around 0.90 USD per BF.

[crtreedude]

Okay, I am going to ask a stupid question, but is there a reason you wouldn't just replace this teak decking? Am I about to get shocked on how much teak is up there?

My further thoughts on the teak. Generally speaking, teak survives weather because of the oils within it, we are talking a boat here 40+ years old, and for whatever reason, the teak has weathered to such a degree it has lost its oils. This means, after putting in all the hard work getting it flat, it might continue to deteriorate. So, after all the hard work, you might find that you are back doing it again in a few years. Not sure, again I know virtually nothing about boats so I confess my ignorance. But I do work with tropical woods, about 40 types. I do find the rotting around the fasteners concerning as well.

I am not trying to sell wood, by the way, I currently don't export - just observations. I also tend to be a bit of a perfectionist so ignore my ramblings if they aren't helpful.

[ccolton]

Hi Bob,

Great Picture! A little different from what you're doing, but when we lived aboard our Shannon, my kids loved to swing from the bow pulpit to the stern on the spinnaker halyard. Thanks for the support.

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Steve,

Although I am sure there are woodworkers capable of using a router and doing this job, I cannot count myself among them. I have seen true craftsmen do amazing things - as I said in an earlier post, my advantage is that I don't earn my living this way and can therefore take my time. So, even when my skill is not as high as some, my patience and time allocation makes up for, at least, some of my shortfalls. So, I like the idea of using hand tools as you, Ian and others have suggested. It may take longer, but with less chance of really screwing up the job. Then there would be no sailing this summer.

I have spoken at length with Teak Deck Systems. That's a first rate shop and the responses I got to my inquiries were extensive and knowledgeable. For the moment, however, I am not ready to part with the money. Also, I am pretty handy with a bandsaw and planes so I would likely mill the teak myself and install at a future date. But who knows, maybe I will strike it rich!

Thanks again.
Chris

[ccolton]

HI crtreedude,

Top quality, flat-sawn teak goes for between $15 and 19/bdft near me. The estimate I got to install a new deck was in the $50,000. range and for a vendor to provide pre-cut teak was in the $30,000 range. I have not calculated the cost of the teak to do the job myself. However, one thing is sure, if I do it myself this year I wouldn't be sailing until next year!

Send up some of that $2 teak, please!

Thanks,

Chris

[Jay Greer]

Okay, I am going to ask a stupid question, but is there a reason you wouldn't just replace this teak decking? Am I about to get shocked on how much teak is up there?

My further thoughts on the teak. Generally speaking, teak survives weather because of the oils within it, we are talking a boat here 40+ years old, and for whatever reason, the teak has weathered to such a degree it has lost its oils. This means, after putting in all the hard work getting it flat, it might continue to deteriorate. So, after all the hard work, you might find that you are back doing it again in a few years. Not sure, again I know virtually nothing about boats so I confess my ignorance. But I do work with tropical woods, about 40 types. I do find the rotting around the fasteners concerning as well.

I am not trying to sell wood, by the way, I currently don't export - just observations. I also tend to be a bit of a perfectionist so ignore my ramblings if they aren't helpful.

More than likely the former owner used a teak brightening cleaner and scrubbed the deck in the direction of the grain which, resulted in railed and cupped planking.
Jay

[crtreedude]

HI crtreedude,

Top quality, flat-sawn teak goes for between $15 and 19/bdft near me. The estimate I got to install a new deck was in the $50,000. range and for a vendor to provide pre-cut teak was in the $30,000 range. I have not calculated the cost of the teak to do the job myself. However, one thing is sure, if I do it myself this year I wouldn't be sailing until next year!

Send up some of that $2 teak, please!

Thanks,

Chris

I can see I am going to cause myself trouble here... but sometime this year we are sending to our daughter and her husband furniture for their home - and they were wondering if we should fill the container with other things.

How many bf do you need? Ours is still a bit young, but I can get teak around 20+ years old, it might be a little more than 2, and definitely some shipping, but no where near 15 - probably closer to 5 to 6 dollars a bf when you finish with everything.

Maybe if all works out here, we can do a group buy or something... Just so you know, I am not trying to do this but am willing to help out. Today I am working on a 2,400 door order... which is more what I do.

Just thinking out loud, which has a way of getting you in trouble at times.

[ccolton]

Hi Jay, I like that possibility! It's the best news I have heard. Since there is so much teak left, and if waht you described is the cause, after flattening, repairing and caulking, would I expect some life from this deck?

Thanks,

Chris

[Jay Greer]

Yes, you can expect to get more life out of the staves if indeed there is enough material left to work with.
Jay

[John Meachen]

Reading that you were quoted $50,000 to replace the deck suggests that either the man giving the quote didn't really want the job or operates with massive overheads.I can understand not wanting to use a router to clean up what's there if you are not entirely comfortable with the tool.More information about the seam sealant can be found at http://www.sika.co.nz/nz_ind_indguid...decks_0311.pdf and is largely the same as that in the earlier link that still works for me but may be limited by region.Alternatively there is a link from the American distributor at http://us01.webdms.sika.com/fileshow.do?documentID=983 .Soft or rotten wood needs to be removed but if you want to go sailing this year it might be best not to look too hard for more work.Did Swan give their reasons for using a fibre caulking in the seams?I can't imagine anybody doing this with a teak overlay deck in the present era and wonder why it was done other than the use of fibrous caulking being traditional.I would still recommend a carefully used belt sander for cleaning the weathered wood and unfortunately even the best shouldn't be trusted close to the coamings/cabin sides where a flat scraper is a better idea,assuming that a proficient user is on hand to use one.
It would seem that boattruck is of much the same opinion as I am regarding the most effective way to enjoy a classic boat and to actually go sailing.Good luck with the project.

[boattruck]

JM et al, A new deck for this boat could pretty easily be somewhere in the neighborhood of $50K all in, either prebuilt or layed, in situ, as seemed best. There are just no real short cuts for the labor, or the material for this sort of project, save for sweat equity...and that may or may not be applicable here. At our shop, we do them on a long deck shaped bench, to save the crawling/ kneeling and install the entire package, but the demo and prep of the old deck and the hardware R&R all are the same no matter how you chose to go...Teak Deck Systems will quote you their price and their product is a high quality, good looking deck... Cheers, Steve/BT

[Thad Van Gilder]

Let me know if I can help you out when its time to bring her north.

-Thad

[ramillett]

Yes, you can expect to get more life out of the staves if indeed there is enough material left to work with.
Jay

Chris in 1988 when I bought Olinka , I was informed that the boat was in dire need of new decks , Maybe next year
I have 800 board feet of quarter sawn teak in 21 foot lengths waiting Bob

[ccolton]

Thank, Jay. I suspected this might be the case, but I am happy to hear it from you.


Chris

[ccolton]

HI John,

Thanks for the support. Yes, sailing with the family will certianly bring back a lot of memories for the boys. They were 4-6 and 8-10 years old during our sail and have forgotten the fun of just being out on the water. Now a freshman in HS and a freshman in College, things will be a little different. And of course this boat is more like a sports car vs. my Shannon which was more luxuruous.

Link opened, by the way - thanks for that.

Chirs

[ccolton]

Hi Thad, thanks. Will do.

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Bob,

That's great! for you and for me! And if you bought the teak in 1988, it probably represents your best investment. Probably triple the purchase price.

Well, this has really been a great thread for me and I really do appreciate all of the opinions and help. I plan to take all of the ideas, many new to me, and collate them in a word doc and add them to my rapidly building project book. With my memory, I would surely forget all this knowledge without memorializing it somehow.

Thanks to you and everyone who has participated.

When I get back to the deck, only after I build my rudder (cored grp - so I won't post that here!) I will post more pictures.

Chris

[ccolton]

All,

I finally launched Mabel's Casse Tete last week; the name comes from, first and most importantly, my mom's first name, and secondly the boat was originally named Casse Tete III. Before writing about the teak deck in question, I wanted to share a short story about my boat. You may be wondering why I would include the original name of the boat; the name has changed several times over the years. Well, when I purchased her, the owner thought she was hull number 005 but mentioned that "someone" disagreed with this. I did some checking, a lot of checking, and was rewarded when a member of the S&S Swan Association recognized the name of the boat from the Coast Guard Abstract - apparently the original owner was a famous racer, Mike Hurrell, and this particular boat is famous - to the point that in a book titled: The Best of the Best The Yacht designs of Sparkman and Stephens, two full pages are dedicated to Casse Tete III. The opening line of the description states, "This is the boat that put Nautor and the flying Swan on the map..." All serendipity - no planning here. But, all the same, I am happy to own this boat!

Anyway, through further research, I have found the following. The teak decks were replaced circa 1986 and possibly as late as 1988. So, this is not Nautor who placed these decks and hence the reason we see some flat-sawn teak.

I have re-read the entire thread and will be using it as a reference as I begin to work on the decks next week!

BTW, she sails like a dream!

Thanks for all the help.

Chris

[rwhb1]

I know this forum is very USA but there has been a great set of illustrated articles in UK Practical Boat Owner by The Chandlers (who were kidnapped and held hostage by pirates) as they restore their boat. See www.ybw.com and page http://marinedirectory.ybw.com/repri...lts1.jspGluing down a teak deckMar 2012 p60-63 (4.00 pages) View Related Articles Category: Practical, maintenance & repairAuthor: Paul and Rachel ChandlerDescription: Rebuilding Lynn Rival ( Rival 38 ) - Lay your own teak deckHaving stripped the old deck, made templates and cut new planks, it was time to start securing the deck strips with adhesive. Trimming, fiddly bits, creeking. Caulking the laid deck strips.Russ

[ccolton]

Hi Russ,
Thank you for your reply. I did visit the site you referred to and got caught up reading the tragic story of the Tartan 37 that foundered. Very sad. But very happy that the captain and crew are safe.
I seached for the teak deck article with no success - I will try again today, time permitting.
For now, since I know that there is still a lot of teak left on deck, between 5/8" and 3/4", I think my best bet is to restore this.

One of the forum members mentioned using a router to create new rabbits for the caulking material - I like the idea but am concerned that I might totally screw up the job. So, I am thinking about hand tools.

I will write back with pictures once we get started.

Chris

[Thad Van Gilder]

Chris, you can buy costa rica teak near us for well under $10 a bf..... $6 for shorts. This guy, kevin yardley in Perkasie, IIRC, saws his own teak in Costa Rica. Under the name "diamond Tropical Hardwoods". Really nice guy.

It is ok for some things but not for a deck.... The grain is in the 2 or 3 rings per inch range.

Steve Pinkas at South Jersey Lumber man's In Mays Landing, NJ used to have tight grained teak in he range of $20/bf

[chuckt]

The boat has pretty lines.

I'd also be tempted to go to a glass deck when the time comes. I own a Concordia with teak decks and I think I will go to a plywood/dynel deck if I ever have to replace.

[ccolton]

Hi Thad,

Thank you for your reply.

That's great information and I will keep Kevins name in my contact dbase! I can get pretty good teak close by at Delaware County Supply just over the DE/PA border, I think. I know they have great honduras mahogany for a price and African mahogany a lot cheaper.

For now, my plan is to repair the existing deck. How I actually do that is the big question!

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Chuck,

Thank you. Like Ray Hunt, Olin Stephens drew some very pretty boats! We have always had dogs aboard and have favored glass decks. In this case, since the deck seems pretty good, just neglected, I am going to give restoration a shot. I will post pictures with progress.

how's your new saw working? Well, I am sure!

Chris

[chuckt]

Great--it's a beast. Haven't used it much yet but it's time is coming.

[ccolton]

Dear group, any suggestions for the best way to cover the section of the deck that I am working on? We are having extremely hot weather with severe thunder storms. I can tape plastic over the section but it will not allow the wood to breathe. Is there an accepted method so that I can work and leave without filling or is all one step?

Thanks, Chris

[Phil Y]

An airconditioned shed? No seriously, even taping plastic over your work probably wouldn't be very effective-water will find its way in. Maybe you need to plan to do smaller sections so you can seal up the day's work before you leave. I had the same sort of issue patching up my deck in the middle of a Tasmanian winter-rain, cold, dew, a pretty short working day. Blow drier and heat gun to dry out the wet bits.

[ccolton]

Hi Phil,

Thank you for the advice. I have basically come to the same conclusion which I think will work out fine and, given my work schedule, will be a good way to approach this problem. I also really like this work. Quiet and very satisfying. Let's hope the finished product is okay.

I appreciate the input - it's a real help to have informed opinions!

Chris

[Lawrie]

Chris,
Just bumped into your thread. I spent weeks working on a Swan 41 teak deck in Spain in 1985 after she had been left in a yard by her owner and my college roomate and his dad were hired to go over, fix and bring her back to this side of the pond.
I am quite sure she had her original decks and they were screwed through the fiberglass deck and many of them were brass screws. The boat had a leather headliner -stained and moldy that upon remova exposed the screw tips with bits of caulk.
It was hell, we drilled out ~70% of the screws and ended up installing strips of wood bedded in caulk on the headliner and screwing into this -the idea, to make the strips look at least reasonable as the headliner was gone.
We were very surprised about this and several other specs/methods for Nautor.
but we had a blast sailing transatlantic, through ~22' seas off Morocco -
Cheers

[Jay Greer]

If push comes to shove and the deck needs to be replaced, you might consider Alskan yellow cedar. Much less expensive than is teak. It looks good, is stable, doesn't rot but will need to be thicker to allow for refinishing in the future.
Jay

[BigHardwood]

I just finished a build and I have a TON of 1/2" x 1 7/8" Teak Decking Strips Quarter Sawn all of them beautiful suckers... I'd be interested in doing a deal with you if you want to, PM me... Good Luck!

[ccolton]

Hi Lawrie,

Thank you for your reply and sorry for my delay in responding - I guess I didn't set this thread up for emails. Well, as optimistic as I was about re-caulking the deck, I am not dissuaded. I felt a spring in the worst part of the deck area, where the greatest amount of water had leaked in, and decided to remove a few planks to get an understanding of what was goin on. It turns out that the layer of teak I was looking at was placed on top of another layer of teak that is now totally saturated. So, it looks like I will be removing the entire deck!

And yes, screws are breaking off! With regard to the headliner - i removed that a long time ago to see what the damage really was. Solid deck, no core, so I think I am okay. Plus, I have a mentor who knows everything (nat an exageration) and is willing to work with me.
Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Jay,
I do need to replace the entire deck and will post picture late next week. I am the uninitiated when it comes to wooden decks. We have always prefered glass because we have dogs. However, since Swan and teak go together, i am leaning toward replacing the decks with wood. I have not considered decing material other than teak but am intrigued. Do you have pictures of an Alaskan Yellow Cedar deck?

Thank you for posting.

Chris

[Jay Greer]

Hi Chris,
Sorry to hear that you will need an entirely new deck! Here is a company that uses Alaskan Yellow for decking on all of their boats unless teak is requested by the owner. Located on the Columbia River, Legendary Yachts is a top flight custom building and yacht service facility. The owner, Stan Bishoprick is a friend of mine.
I am sure that you could get current information on Alaskan yellow from him. They purchase their materials in bulk and may be able to supply you with what you need. My own source is Eden Saw Woods in Port Townsend. The reps. That can help you are either Ted Pike or Adam Henly. They often are able to come up with lumber at special prices for me.

p://www.dexknows.com/business_profiles/edensaw_woods_ltd-b264103

http://www.legendaryyachts.com/Projects.htm
Jay

[ccolton]

Jay, thanks so much for the information. Although I like the idea of staying faithful to the original, I am not tied to it if I can find alternatives that are equally attactive, cheaper and, importantly, environmentally friendly.

Chris

[ccolton]

Wow - those are some beautiful yachts! - When I begin to work on the interior, I think I will revisit the site for ideas.

[chuckt]

I take it back about going to a cloth deck. I just got some of my teak revealed. It had been covered by some kind of thick Woolsley product. Love the teak

[Jay Greer]

That dirt looks like jet fuel fall out. Are you near an airport? However if it is some kind of Zap On, it kind of speaks for itself!
Jay

[ccolton]

Hi Chuck,
I agree, if you can save the wood's natural beauty it's worth the effort. You have probably seen the threads about cleaning teak and all of the opinions so i won't give mine here other than to say that the people at TDS are incredibly helpful. You may want to speak with them about cleaning your teak.

On my last boat, a Shannon 50 which had teak everywhere, I asked a friend there why I couldn't just sand until I got to the clean teak and he advised that the dirt and grime, including fuel, gets too deep and that it needs to be cleaned first.

Beautiful boat and great work - I have followed your thread with interest and admiration. Good luck!

Chris

[chuckt]

Thanks Chris. Yeah--no way I'm getting out all the Woolsley coating that's in the cracks. But I think it still looks great. I'm not going to try to get it all out. Maybe it will fade with time. All the comments about teak are indeed confusing. I don't know whcih way to go as far as further cleaning and maintenance. I'm not crazy about letting it get grey. I just don't like the color. But the majority in the forum seems to be in favor of not using products on teak