Teak Deck Questions

[ccolton]

Hello everyone,

Last time I posted, I was writing about my plans to build Paul Gartside's beautiful 19 foot Spartan II with my son. I still plan to do this, but an opportunity came up that I could not turn down. Yes, she's a plastic boat, but she has a lot of wood and I promise to ask questions only related to wooden aspects of my project.

The boat: 1969 Swan 43 in need of serious help.

I need advice on repairing the teak deck. I will post pictures as soon as I can firgure out how. Can't seem to find the "mountain icon" but I do see an icon that says it's used for pictures - no luck so far but I will keep trying.

Thanks,

Chris

[ccolton]

Okay, things have changed and become much simpler - just right click on the image and paste into the post. Technology keeps moving to fast for me to keep up with! So, below are two pictures of the teak deck in question. You can see in the second picture that the balck sealant is about 1/4 inches wide, however, after grinding down about 1/6 inches, the rabbit becomes much narrower and appears to be filled with natural fiber. It seems almost as if a veneer of teak was veneered over the original deck. Or possibly (I find this hard to belive) a router was used to cut perfectly aligned grooves.

Anyway, you can see a little rot, and this wood will need to be replaced. However, although the deeck looks terrible now, since it is minimum of 5/8 inces thick and 3/4 inches in some places, it seems like I can repair the deck by grinding and rebedding.

Is grinding the best way to to do this or am I better off using a hand plane? At least to level the deck?

Where the rabbits come together and make the grooves are very narrow. I am really concerned about ripping the wood here. I have read about the fein teak tool, but even the smallest is too wide. Should I use a bent screwdriver - and what shape?

This is a big job and I will not be able to apply myself more than a day at a time. Can this be done successfully in sections?

I know I have more questions but don't know what they are!

Thanks for all your help in the past and I look forward to hearing your wisdon.

Chris

[ccolton]

More pictues of the deck and one of the boat: Mabel's Casse Tete

[Ian McColgin]

Do some test probling before thinking it's a veneer layer over wood. Traditional deck planking has seams that might be vertical near the surface but narrow as they go down, sometimes with a step and sometimes not, to a point where you have just a touch of wood to wood contact at the bottom of the seam. Over that you have the fibre caulk and then the black goop.

[ccolton]

Thank you for your input and prompt reply, Ian. Yes, I recognize that there may be a lot of alternatives that I don't understand. I am hoping that the pictures will provide someone enough information to figure out what's going on. I think I can restore the deck, but I am very concerned about tearing the groove as I remove the old bedding material. Possibly a way to creat a new groove - but I am not confident that I can do this successfully.

thanks again.

Chris

[Bob Cleek]

I appreciate that you want to "restore" the deck on your Swan, but "the pictures provide enough information" to illustrate that what is going on is likely the destruction of a perfectly good teak deck overlayment. First off, what is wrong with the deck sheathing? I believe your Swan has a fibreglass deck, covered in teak. The pictures don't show anything except maybe that some plugs have lifted and need to be replaced, that some of the stopping (the black rubbery stuff) has separated from the seam sides, that the teak is naturally weathered, and, unfortunately, that somebody has taken a grinder to it and destroyed "1/6"" of its surface!

Is the deck leaking below? If so, that is going to be due to poor sealing of fasteners and should, in a fibreglass deck, be pretty well localized, meaning: pull the fastener, replace with some bedding compound in the screw hole and replug (assuming a wooden structural deck beam below hasn't already started to rot out.) Or is it that you just don't like the weathered look? Then bleach it with oxalic acid and water as per the instructions on a container of "wood bleach" (oxalic acid crystals) from the paint store. (Do NOT use "teak bleachs" from the chandlery like "Teka." They are far too harsh and destroy the wood grain.) Where the surface has worn down (or been ground down!) too far for a plug to hold, remove the screw and drive the countersink hole a bit deeper and then replug.

As for the stopping, given as much as you have to deal with there, I would definitely invest in the Fein MultiMaster and the teak seam attachment of the appropriate width to clean out the old material. For this application, I'd use Teak Deck Systems seam compound (stopping). Expect to pay handsomely for it, but there's no substitute and when you get into this job, you'll realize that materials are a lot cheaper than labor. The "fibre material" (likely caulking cotton) is essential because it prevents the stopping from sticking to the bottom of the seam. If the stopping sticks to the bottom of the seam, when the wood swells and shrinks, it will cause the sides of the seam compound to eventually pull away from the sides of the seams, which is the problem illustrated here.

If it really is a traditionally laid teak deck without any fibreglass structural underlayment, which is highly unlikely, some other considerations will apply, but not many, for these purposes. If so, let us know.

Bottom line, it's too nice a boat to screw up with "experiments." Find somebody local who knows what they are doing working on decks and have them show you what needs to be done. You don't want to know what replacing that teak will cost if you keep up the way you are apparently going now.

I don't mean to hurt your feelings. It seems so many post in here with questions and then get upset when they find out they aren't being agreed with, but you asked the question and that's the answer.

[ccolton]

Hi Bob,

I am not worried about my feelings and, yes, I did post with questions so I expect that there will be different responses and opinions. That's fine with so don't worry about that.

Unfortunately, what you cannot see from the pictures is that the wood is cupped so badly that withour grinding or planing, there's a better than 1/16 inch differential between the peaks and valleys of the wood. So either grinding or planing has to happen.

No I am not worried about the "weathered look," that's what a good teak deck has. It's not brightwork. I am concerned about an abandoned deck - that's what I have!

So, if you have suggestions to help with this, I will look forward to hearing them.

Thanks,

Chris

s far as cost of replacement - I know exactly how much it costs.

[Ian McColgin]

I'd not thought about the deck being on glass but of course . . . My thoughts were only useful for all teak deck.

I have a friend facing this problem on his older boat. The cupping happens with inferior grade inferior cut too thin anyway teak over-decking. My friend's has been flattened a couple of times and at this point there is not enough wood to cover the fastenings with a bung. So he's getting set to pull it all up. I don't think he plans on putting teak back.

So, try following Bob's advice as a start and see where you go.

G'luck

[ccolton]

Hi Bob,

Some follow-up thoughts. Yes, the teak is screwed to a solidl glass deck. My main concern is water intrusion into the boat. In once case, the water damages was so bad that the 1/4 inch aluminum backer plate crumbled off in my hands. However, as you say, the damage should be localized and that's why I took the chance on this boat in the first place.

There is still a lot of teak left, as I mentioned, but it definitely needs to be flattened. I have a fein multimaster, but, as I said, the smallest teak tool is too big for the very small groove.

i have been in touch with Teak Deck Systems, purchased some of their caulking materials and had some in depth conversations with the extremely helpful staff.

What I need to know is how do I SAFELY remove the old caulk and fiber.

Ian, thanks for your comments. I think I am is a similar situation to your friend, although not as far along. First, I think the wood is probably pretty good quality and second, it's very think still. So, I am optimistic that I can repair it.

I need to rebed all deck hardware, however, due to wear, the teak under these fittings is actually raised by about 1/64 to 1/8 inch. My plan is to remove fittings in sections, flatten the and re-bed deck and fittings. I just want to be careful about not damaging the teak.

Thanks,

Chris

[Ian McColgin]

I like my Fein but I've had better luck pulling out the rubber goop in teak seams with the sharpened tang of a chisel. There are those who like to heat and bend the tang so that the remaining chisel body becomes the handle. I like bolting a couple of slats at a bit more acute than right angles to the chisel - exact angle set by convenient hand-pull posiiton about parallel to the deck with the chisel aimed like a plane blade bevel down and bevel just a hair up from horizontal. Get the right angle and you can just nuggle the thing along with one hand pealing up blackgoo with the other. The plan tang needs to be a noodge narrower than the slot in the wood with the nuggling motion breaking it free of the sides without splitting the wood.

It's tedious but pleasantly quiet. Recommend accoustic folk or baroque music background.

G'luck

[ccolton]

Hi Ian,

I like your idea. I really like using had tools when doing wood work and typically mill all my wood with planes so this noiseless effort should be satisfying to me as well.

I get the concept and I have seen videos - my concern is still that since the groove is so narrow that I might still damage the wood. I plan to write to Swan and ask them as well.

But the information I have gleaned here has always been first-rate so here is where I will begin!

Thanks again.

Chris

[JoshuaIII]

Teak deck on fiberglass ... Terrible thing but really good as this is what my most often asked repair job are about.

If it's fiberglass under it, look really carefully if there is a core in the fiberglass (Which likely there is)... If the leaky teaky started to leak into it, the core will start to rot and delaminate which is structurally unsound and need to be repair.

So check that out, if this is your case you have discovered the hard way why you do not screw teak on fiberglass boat...

[Thad Van Gilder]

Chris,
I work 25 minutes up the road (From Wilmington) in Downingtown. Perhaps one day I can get down there and have a look for you.

Where is the boat at? I'm guessing by the color of the water she is on the bohemia or sassafras river... or up towards Northeast.

-Thad

[Ian McColgin]

Unless you've got a piece of very damaged teak or a small spot someone "repaired" with a few drops of epoxy, the file tang seam reefer won't pull up any wood. Just make sure it's small as the slot. Most teak over glass decks I've seen are parallel sided but if you have V shaped, just grind the tang to fit.

G'luck.

[Jay Greer]

I'm seeing that which looks like cotton in one of the photos that shows the seams up close. That tells me that, if it is caulked, there is still enough thickness left to get a bit more life out of the deck. The trick with a job like this is to avoid, as much as possible, removing too much material with a belt sander. Whenever possible, I work with a scraper plane or hook scrapers in order to remove only the amount of material needed. This kind of work is slow and laborious but working slow will produce better results than trying to slam dunk the job.
Jay

[pro from dover]

You have an OVER 40 year old teak overlay. Your wasting your time trying to save that deck.

[ramillett]

Chris I think Joshua has bought up whats important , is your boat a solid glass and resin deck , or did Swan use a core to stiffen the deck ? Most fixes that I've been involved on , we filled the screw holes , and dig out any water damage , and relay up glass , then we prep the deck and glue the teak down , then refill the seams . After the 1980's , Swan glued all there decks down without screws . On the Swan 65's the new decks were only 5/8'' , and when they got down to under 3/8'' the edges would curial up , and the bedding would leak , and start damaging the deck structure . One mistake I made on our boat was , we had some soft planks , that were washed out low about a 1/4'' . I went a ground the decks flat , I should have inlaid the planks , that would have saved a lot of teak and a lot of work . On our boat we only use a utility knife to do the edges and a hock to finish the seams , so you need to get good with the knife Bob



By the way when I bought our boat 25 year back , my decks looked like yours , almost no calk , just cotton , but she started with 1-3/8'' thick teak .

[ccolton]

Hi Joshua,

First, let me compliment you on your choice of boat and, more importantly, the fabulous work you are doing! I am alway so impressed with the work done by the members of this site. As I said in my first post on this thread, I had planned to build Paul Gartside's Spartan II, but I really wanted a project that I could do with my sons - they were WAY more interested in the Swan, so there you have it. It's all about spending time with the ids when you can. Beautiful work.

With regard to the deck, that was a major issue with me before making the purchase. I did the survey myself, part of which entailed speaking with a member of the design office at Swan in Finland to determine that the decks are solid glass reinforced with glass stringers. So, water intrusion is limited primarily to the deck fittings. I have removed 90 percent of the headliner and everything looks fine except at the deck fittings.

Thanks for your comments.

Chris

[ccolton]

Dear Thad,

That's quite a generous offer - Thank you! Unfortunately for me, the boat is south of Annapolis right now. I am building a new rudder which I expect to complete by mid-March and hope to sail the boat to Delaware City by late April.

However, since you're so close, I would be happy to buy you lunch and talk about the deck. I can take more pictures to show you the cupping that needs to be flattened. It's always nice to make new friends. Thanks again for the offer.

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Ian,

As usual, I've read many of your posts on other threads, helpful and practical advice. A few spots are damaged, but those are few and i can repair those easily. I think I will try a section using your idea and report back - could be a while since the boat is so far and I need to get that rudder finished.

Thanks again.
Chris

[ccolton]

HI Jay,

Good advice. Unfortunately, what you cannot see from the pictures (I need to take better pictures) is that the teak has cupped severely. I have measured where I can and it seems like there is close to 3/4 of teak left - the thickness of the teak and the strange 1/4 inch sealant that is only 1/6 inch or less deep - suggested to me that possibly someone had laid teak on top of teak. Add to that, Swan keeps their seams very narrow. Who knows - I have not seen direct evidence of a glue line so this may be totally off.

Anyway, the deck needs to be flattened and I don't think a scraper will do the job. I, too, use scrapers in my woodwork often. I wish I had better pictures to show.


Thanks for the advice and support.

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi pro from Dover,

You may be right. I will find out the hard way, but as I say to my friends who ask about the furniture I build, since I am not a pro and don't have to worry about the $/hr. rate, I can afford to go slowly and make mistakes. That's how I can produce good results - not because I am better than the pros, or probably not as good, but becuase I don't have time constraints. For me, spending time with my sons doing this work is worth every minute spent.

Thanks for you comments.
Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Bob,

I have seen many of your posts, most recently I was intrigued and impressed by the work you did in your engine room! I don't think I am anywhere near that good (OK - I know I am not!).

Beautiful picture of you decks - that's what I am hoping for! You make several good points. As I mentioned in my note to Joshua, the deck is solid glass and the structure is reinforced with glass stringers so I think any damage is limited to water intrusion at the fittings. And believe me - there's plenty of that! Hence, the reason that I need to get this job done.

You mentiond some soft planks that had gone down abut 1/4 inch. I have the same thing in at least one spot and I had already decided to remove the teak there. The water intrusion was so bad that the aluminum backing plate disintegrated when we took the deck fitting off. There are other places where the bungs are ripped and I will need to address those spots as well.

I am still a little confused by the width of the groove. Does this seem too small to you?

When you say you only use a utility knife to do the edges - what do you mean? I understand the hook.

Thanks again and what a beautiful boat you have!

Chris

[Ron Williamson]

Sometimes a guy needs to cut the rubber free from the edges of the lumber.
That's where I'd use a utility knife.

Another thing you should thinking about is how you will get rid of the air space between the cupped boards and the fiberglass deck.
Water trapped under there will cause no end of trouble.

I'm not sure that I'd try to make the raised areas under the fittings level with the rest of the deck.
When the fittings are higher,water won't tend to sit in that area,constantly testing your bedding compound.
R

[Phil Y]

I'd think seriously about removing the teak and refinishing it as a glass deck.

[ccolton]

Hi Ron,

Thank your for the information. As you can tell, I am a little new to owning a teak deck. I prefer a fiber glass deck since we have sailing dogs. Anyway, I now understand the untility knife. Since the caulk on my boat is so worn, there won't be a use for that. The hook pictured in Bob's post will be very useful.

Another thing you should thinking about is how you will get rid of the air space between the cupped boards and the fiberglass deck.
Water trapped under there will cause no end of trouble.R

This is a point i had not thought about. Of course, if the wood is cupped on the surface, one would assume that it is cupped. Thanks for pointing that out. I wonder if it is possible for the wood on top to expand with neglect over years and still remain glued and screwed flat to the deck?

I'm not sure that I'd try to make the raised areas under the fittings level with the rest of the deck.
When the fittings are higher,water won't tend to sit in that area,constantly testing your bedding compound.
R

Another good point that I will need to consider.

As I have been reading these responses, I wonder if I should flatten the deck first, as planned, and then caulk or caulk and then flatten. The latter method would allow me to stop leaks now and worry about aesthetics later.

Thanks again,

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Phil,

There are many advantages to a glass deck. I have lived aboard on two different boats for a total of 4 years, always with at least one dog and two for most of the two trips. Glass decks are the way to go for living aboard. This boat will be used more for coastal cruising and weekends. So, although I can certainly understand your point, and may go that way in the end, for now I plan to pursue restoration of the deck.

Thanks for commenting.

Chris

[Don Kurylko]

In for a penny, in for a pound. You might want to consider carefully pulling up the entire deck, numbering and photographing everything as you go, and then replaning or replacing the the bad strakes and putting it all back together again. That's the only way you will know for sure that the job is properly done and will last for awhile. Anything less will likely just result in an endless string of irritating repairs.

[ccolton]

Hi Don,

Another idea I had not considered - thank you. This has definitely been a worthwhile exercise for me and I appreciate all the replies. I assume the strakes are screwed and glued to the deck. Do you think that I would be able to remove each one without damage?

I may have to approach this project in steps. I have a lot of mechanical/structural projects that need my immediate attention. So, I like your idea, but I might consider repairing re-caulking the deck this year and in 2-3 years, after I have made the other improvements I need to make, have a second go at the deck. I know, why waste all that time doing the same job twice. The family wants to go sailing! And so do I.

i will examine that option next time at the boat. Any thoughts on the additional labor time versus repairing and re-caulking? 2X, 3X?

Thank you for your input.
Chris

[John Meachen]

In for a penny, in for a pound. You might want to consider carefully pulling up the entire deck, numbering and photographing everything as you go, and then replaning or replacing the the bad strakes and putting it all back together again. That's the only way you will know for sure that the job is properly done and will last for awhile. Anything less will likely just result in an endless string of irritating repairs.

I once had to remove a single imperfectly bonded teak deck plank.Carefully pulling it up was not an option,the epoxy that held it down necessitated hours of chiselling fragments a little at a time.It may be that Swan decks are bedded on polyurethane mastic rather than epoxy and this could be nearly as tough.I was surprised that the thickness of the deck is as much as 3/4 inch as this is close to twice what I would have expected and adds quite a lot of weight high up n the boat.I also find it odd that there is a V shaped groove for the mastic between the planks,I would have expected a rectangular seam.In fact some of the producers of seam filling mastic use rectangular grooves to illustrate their manuals and they further recommend the use of a bead breaker strip along the bottom of the groove to allow a little movement of the wood.This ensures that the proportions of plank width to seam width allow the mastic to stay attached to the sides.With a traditional caulked deck,the caulking leaves a horizontal surface below the seam compound in a similar fashion.
A Swan is a fine boat (even if the hull is made of stuff we don't mention here) I think the advice to check for deterioration of the core of the deck is excellent and if none is found it will take a lot less work to tidy up what's there than to replace it.If there is no problem with water penetration causing damage you could just clean up the seams with a 3/16 router cutter and then refill them.Two or three days of squeezing mastic from a tube is no fun and your arms will be glad of the interval before the mastic cures.When it has cured you can tidy things up with a carefully used belt sander,refit any hardware and go sailing.

[JoshuaIII]

Chris thanks for your words... I totally understand the buy of the swan no worry there, sailing is most of the time more fun then building

I just wanted to be sure you checked that point, as this is a major job(The biggest on fiberglass boat) when the core start to delaminate and saturated with water (Balsa is a bit sponge if they did it with it). Those few thousand of holes for screws to hold the teak doesn't really help either...

All good if there is no issue there, just have to work it up for the top then...

[ccolton]

Hi John,

Thank you for your comments.

Most of what you wrote reflects my own confusion; i.e, why isn't the rabbit square, why is there so much teak left; etc. With regard to the deck, before making the purchase, I carefully examined the deck and corresponded with a former engineer at Swan. This is definitely a solid glass deck and hull. Some Swan decks are cored - this is not one of them. I now have the headliner off and I can see that the water intrusion is limited to the deck fittings.


Your idea of using a router to clean the seams is intriguing. Although I use routers, I do so mostly on a router table. I tend to run off with the router when in my hands! How would you suggest that I use the router. I could carefully clean out one groove and then frbricate a fence. But...I would still be afraid of screwing up the job. What would you do?

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Joshua,

Yes, absolutely, 100 percent sure about the solid glass deck. That was a potential deal breaker before I purchased the boat. I really did my research - both at the boat and through correspondences with a former engineer at Swan.

Thanks again and keep those pictures coming!

Chris

[Thad Van Gilder]

Chris,
Would that be Herrington Harbor? In Deale? LOts of older sailboats to be had for a song there... there always has been.

I have to look up the depth, but a friend tells me there are depth issues. What is the draft of that Swan? 6 1/2'?

Thad

[Phil Y]

My experience, for what its worth, is that mastic(of whatever flavour) almost never makes a perfect seal in between old planks. Water will get in, will travel, and will find its way down below. Your planks will bow. You'll never be happy. That deck has had a good innings, but is well past its use by date-in my opinion. You can't patch it up to any real purpose. if you are working for a short term fix, with budget constraints, you could rip up bad bits, around deck protrusions, and replace those. But its strictly a short term fix, and no cost saving in the longer term. If you want teak, I think you are looking at new teak overlay. if you are happy with glass, then thats probably easier and cheaper. if you've already stopped the leaks, then move on to the next project. Come back to the deck when you are ready for it. Nice looking oat by the way.

[Phil Y]

PS-I have teak over ply decks, with the inevitable results 40 years down the track. I've gone with the short term fix for now.
[IMG][/IMG]

[Don Kurylko]

Chris, I doubt the Teak is glued on. It's too thick for that. Mastic of some sort for sure, but if the strakes are cupped, it suggests that things have started to let go and it might not be that hard to under cut what's left of it. Can you ask Swan what they would have used and ask them to suggest a fix? I'm sure this problem has cropped up more than once.

Also... are the strakes fastened with screws as well? It might be worth your while to pick a particularly bad piece and try to remove it to see just how it goes together and what lies beneath. A bit of forensic sleuthing, if you will. That might help you to decide how to approach the rest of the deck and if it is worth the bother of doing a temporary repair or go whole hog.

If whole hog, then just leave it as is until you can find the time to give it the attention it needs and go sailing in the meantime. It doesn't sound like the structural integrity of the hull is threatened in any way, so go out and have some fun!

[Ian McColgin]

Good that it's a solid deck. I would go with an attempt at flattening. Re-sink any screws that are too close to the surface to keep a bung on. I see nothing wrong with this time useing a drop of epoxy around the bottom perimeter of the bung. Don't wipe it up too high or you'll have a visible epoxy ring on the bung and maybe some slop over. In any event, do the new bungs before final flattening if you can. Normally epoxying in bungs is a bad idea since it prevents future fix. If you're getting low enough, you trade-off future fix for the advantages of having a thinner bung that won't keep itself in place.

You'll also want to do the leveling after reefing the black goop and before putting in more. Even old and brittle the stuff does not sand well and will just make a mess. People have experimented with ways to control routers or circular saws. Among the ways that don't work are guide rails that sit deeply in the newly opened seam behind the bit and ride a little higher over the black goo in the depression between planks ahead of the bit. Still poor control and you end up having to go back with better rails to widen the reefed seam, which introduces problems of it's own with the cotton caulking below. The other method is to tack down guide battens. Add up how many seams and how many battens and how many new holes in the deck to see why this is a non-starter.

Make a file-tang reefing tool and have at it. The level of hopeless frustration will pass as you get the rhythm and skill and you won't beat up the boat. More to the point, it goes faster than screwing around with too many machine tools and repairing their damage.

G'luck

[ccolton]

Hi Thad,

Yes, Herrington Harbor North - you know your harbors.

With regard to the draft of the boat, that was a major issue for me and allowed me to negotiate in good faith to get a very low price. I really did not want a boat with a draft of 7'2"! Certainly not in the Chesapeake. Anyway, to get the boat out of Herrington Harbor, I will need to wait for high tide.

My plan is to sail the boat and make all rennovations/upgrades; etc over the next 5 years. During that time, having a lot of fun working and sailing her with my two sons and wife, we'll decide if she is a boat for us for the long term. If so, I may decide to modify the keel - but that's a long way off.

Chris

[ccolton]

HI Phil,

Thank you for your comments. There are definitely areas that need to be replaced - the deck, as I said in an earlier post - is in worse shape than can be seen from the pictures. With regard to preference for deck, I had a Shannon before this boat, also in need of much work, and I tend to agree with their philosophy - why add extra weight to the deck. So, in general, I prefer a glass deck, however, in the short run, I may try to fix the deck I have and see how it goes. If you are right, and I don't doubt you, I will need to remove it and make the decision then about whether to have a teak deck or not. If I did go teak then, I might explore the West System method which uses 1/8 inch to 1/4" strakes. For now, I just want to stop all the leaks, flatten the deck and clean it up. If that works - I lucked out. If not - it's another job in the future.

Thanks again.

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Don,

Great idea. In fact, the picture that shows the largest section of deck has had two deck fittings removed. The further removed deck fitting in the picture (appears to be under a pink/white cover and hammer) has the most damage to the deck. I have to remove this section anyway because the wood is compromised and sunken. I will get a very good idea of what's going on under here when I remove it. This will be my next job at the boat. Glad I started this thread - I have gotten a lot of great responses!

Thanks again.

Chris

[ccolton]

HI Ian, we think alike. I always prefer hand tools, given the option. Thanks for the advice about flattening - I will proceed that way. I will fabricate two tools, one for me and one for my HS son, and get going soon. Great advice and thanks for sticking with me on this project.

I should say that I may not get to any real work for a while - I mentioned that I am building a new rudder and just yesterday we finalized the NACA foil sections. I need to cut templates out of 1/4 inch ply, glue to the rudder template and then make reverse templates so I can begin building. Once that's finished, it's time for the deck!

Thanks again.
Chris

[crtreedude]

I am a bit surprised that teak is cupping. Now, I don't know much at all about boats and boating but my experience with teak (and I have a lot) is that it is very stable. But, looking at some of the pieces, I think it was flat sawn, which might be the issue. You probably don't know the age of the teak, etc, but generally speaking, teak less than 12 years old isn't suitable for outdoors. Some of the boards as well have a grain that crosses the piece, i.e. it would easily break at that point.

I am saying this because I am a plantation owner, grow teak as well as many other types of wood and deal with teak daily. I am not saying that you can't plane this wood down, just giving some observations.

[KAIROS]

As part of, or a different version of, forensic sleuthing that Don mentioned:

1. Use a spade-bit (3/4"?) to bore down through the whole deck.....teak, glass, liner......so you can see and poke at the walls of the hole.
2. To get 'core' samples which you can inspect at your leisure, bore holes from top to bottom using a small hole saw (5/8"?).
3. Also cut small rectangles up to the teak from below.

[edit: you can make most of the holes in areas where the hole is later covered......under the windlass, genoa track, life line stanchion base....and these are places likely to have leaked around fastenings]

I used all these options in what I thought would be the most likely delamination areas, then filled and finished over the cut outs in the cabin and plugged the teak. I did this on our teak/ply deck before investing time in new seams and plugs, etc. I used a 5/8 hole saw for the cores, a 3/4 spade bit, and multimaster and chisel to cut out small rectangles from below. A slightly larger hole saw would have been better.....maybe 3/4. This coring and cutting up from underneath won't tell you everything, but will give you much confidence that your choice of method for dealing with the problem is in line with the actual situation.

I hurt me more than the boat, and after we completed the deck work we were confident we had made the right choices. You have to look hard to find the repairs below and large plugs above.

[John Meachen]

If I had to clean out or tidy up the seams I would use a laminate trimmer size router and use flexible battens to guide it.I would try to locate any necessary fine nails to hold the batten in place in the nearest convenient seam in order not to pepper the deck.In more confined spaces a Stanley 79 would probably work well.Some good information about filling the seams in this link http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct...pY8DGQ&cad=rja .

[ccolton]

Hi crtreedude,

Yes, I also noticed that the teak apppeared to be flat sawn. I say appears, rather than is, only because I don't know how the rest of the deck looks and because I am continually surprised by this boat. Of course, I would prefer quartersawn lumber, but then I am back to removing the deck. Thanks for your keen eyes. We'll see what happens when I make some progress.

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi Kairos,

Thank you for your advice. I can see how removing cores samples and small sections would be very helpful. With regard to aesthetics from below, I am planning to replace the headliner so nothing would show there. And the deck, of couse, is easy. I need to scarf in new teak in several placed anyway.

I feel for your emotional state - I know that each cut will hurt me as well. But, like you, I want to know that when I take the boat out in a blow, that she's as safe as I can make her.

Thanks again,

Chris

[ccolton]

Hi John,

Thanks for the explanation. I tried that link and was unable to open it - the return was an invalid URL. I like the Stanley 79 - good tool.

Chris

[Bob Cleek]

I am a bit surprised that teak is cupping. Now, I don't know much at all about boats and boating but my experience with teak (and I have a lot) is that it is very stable. But, looking at some of the pieces, I think it was flat sawn, which might be the issue. You probably don't know the age of the teak, etc, but generally speaking, teak less than 12 years old isn't suitable for outdoors. Some of the boards as well have a grain that crosses the piece, i.e. it would easily break at that point.

I am saying this because I am a plantation owner, grow teak as well as many other types of wood and deal with teak daily. I am not saying that you can't plane this wood down, just giving some observations.

I noticed the same thing, but couldn't believe Swan would do such a thing. Truth is stranger than fiction sometimes. I've watched this thread with some interest. I've seen similar problems on other boats, always with the culprit being weathering, age, and grain misalignment. Depending on the overall shape of the boat and the owner's taste/pocketbook (which don't always match, of course) I'd go with removing the overlayment and reglassing or replacing the teak with vertical grain stuff of the same dimensions. If I went with teak, I would be inclined to replace it exactly the way Swan did it originally. I'd stay away from the WEST System technique. I've seen it done and it ain't anywhere near as easy as their book makes it look!

[ccolton]

Hi Bob,

Thanks for your continued interest. With regard to this being the original teak laid by Swan, I doubt it. There have been modifications to this boat that are clearly not up to Swan quality standards. I was dismayed to see that the teak grain that I can see is flat sawn. I suspect this is the case for the rest of the deck, but will not know for a while.

As to removing the deck and replacing or going with a glass/non-skid surface, my number one priority now is sailing, so I will likely repair what I have and then give the deck attention in the future when I have the rest of the boat worked out.

Sailing is very important, not only for the obvious reasons, but because although I have sailed other, similar S&S designs, a Tartan 41 for example, I want to get to know her and her sailing characteristics before I go crazy with money and time. I think this is a long-term boat for me and my family, but only time will tell.

Chris