Page 11 of 81 FirstFirst ... 1011122161 ... LastLast
Results 351 to 385 of 2809

Thread: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

  1. #351
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    I wouldn't think so. And I just found another clue. I looked more closely at the planking underneath this area. The wider gap had been caulked so wasn't readily visible. A little poking around and a wider gap here is revealed. This, I think, is consistent with the idea that the horn timber was bent upward at the stern.



    And here is the delignified frame referred to above in post 320. I'm guessing some stray current did this but not sure.

    Chuck Thompson

  2. #352
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    South Puget Sound/summer Eastern carib./winter
    Posts
    15,320

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    I recon you hit it with the "too much backstay".
    She has a split backstay or a triatic that spreads the load into the mizzen afters? ( I , m not sure , just guessing) So , the compression load is pulling UP on the aft planking and stringers and floors. The horn timber may be the only thing that did NOT move? wigged out frames sure didn't help!

  3. #353
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Is all her weight on the keel now Chuck? Or is she supported mostly along the hull? Also, if she had moved so much to open up the gap under the floors due to too much shroud tension, I wonder if the garboard seam has been recaulked a few times to fix leaking along there and possibly overcaulked forcing things further apart as timbers re-swelled, also stopping her from sitting back down on her floors under the weight of the hull???

    You'd kind of expect that with all her weight on the keel the hull and floors would want to eventually relax and sit down onto it, (leaving some loose looking floor bolts), rather than stay floating up there like that.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  4. #354
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Location
    Port Townsend WA
    Posts
    11,827

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Sadly I see this all too often when modern owners and crew members insist on setting the rigging up banjo tight on a wooden boat. The usual result is that the hull gets hogged into a bannana split; broken frames and all! I am very sorry to see what you are dealing with. I surveyed a hull and rig several years ago that did not have your electrolysis problems but the rigging was set up so tight that two web frames were fractured.
    Jay
    Last edited by Jay Greer; 08-19-2012 at 08:42 PM.

  5. #355
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Some possibilities there Luke. I am guessing that the gap was there before we put her on the ground because the wider seam appeared to have been caulked. But its possible she has settled and caused or worsened the problem. I was thinking about easing the stand I have supporting the stern. But I'm guessing its going to require some plank disassembly to set matters right. Fortunately, I will be doing that anyway

    Jay--I think it is all fixable when I get the planks off to replace the sternpost. The corrosion was really bad on that one frame. I suspect some wires that go to the propane shutoff solenoid that were taped to the gear selector control. Where that selector touched the frame is where the corrosion starts and goes down into the bilge. There is more corrosion around the engine area but to a much lesser extent. I'd like to look at some similar age boats and compare.
    Last edited by chuckt; 08-20-2012 at 08:50 AM.
    Chuck Thompson

  6. #356
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,211

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    A word on the Festool gear. My father in law bought a set for his resto project. The 6" rotex sander/grinder was so good, my Mother in law would let him use it IN THE HOUSE.

    Expensive tools, but truly worth every penny.


    Great progress! love to see this project moving forward.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  7. #357
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    790

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    The 6" rotex sander/grinder was so good, my Mother in law would let him use it IN THE HOUSE.
    I'm afraid to ask about this. I'd hate to be permanently replaced by a Festool.

  8. #358
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Hills of Vermont, USA
    Posts
    25,808

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    The 6" rotex sander/grinder was so good, my Mother in law would let him use it IN THE HOUSE.
    I used my chainsaw (18" bar Jonsered) to cut through floors to put a chimney in. Is that the same idea?

  9. #359
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Not quite Garett. You actually could use the Festool Rotex sander in the house. The 3" grinder is not quite house broken but is immensely less messy than grinding wood with a regular grinder.

    Tom--I think we are safe for now.
    Chuck Thompson

  10. #360
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    NWly shores of Lake Whitehall, MA
    Posts
    6,894

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Twice this week a 'google' search has dumped me into the WBF...

    Chuck, I've got more than passing experience with an iron-ballasted sailboat, tho mine's 20ish years older.

    I can provide some photos showing how Phoenix is supported. The way she's done allows removal of stands for better access.

    Fastener removal - there was an article in Woodenboat a year or two ago on the topic; covered it pretty well, tho the screws you showed sure look pretty good.

    The gap between floor and backbone timbers isn't too surprising - with Phoenix it was pretty much the norm, in some cases as much as 1/2" IIRC. Are you able to remove the bolts holding the floors to keel, horn timber, etc, as well as to the frames. With Phoenix things are so rusted, and the iron, oak, and salt have been at war with each other for 70 years.

    I also dropped the ballast, somewhere I have photos of that process and the ballast 'cradle' we made to hold the ballast.

    If you are contemplating replacing the horn timber, forefoot, or stem, I suggest you, for lack of a better word, take the 'lines' off of them. The external profile and the rabbet line I think you will find helpful. If nothing else it might determine if the horn timber is bowed.

    Good luck!

    PS: Another vote for Festool!
    "Congress doesn't regulate Wall Street, Wall Street regulates Congress."

    MAKE WAY! MAKE WAY! "I have heard of some kind of men that put quarrels purposely on others."

    As a general rule, the better it felt when you said it, the more trouble it's going to get you into.

    International Financial Conspirator, Collaborator, Gun Runner, Ace Philosopher-King and all-around smartie pants

  11. #361
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Hey Ed. Thanks for the advice.

    her horn timber looks pretty good but I will know more when I start removing planks to get at the stern post. I removed my stern support hoping the stern would drop and get things back in place. No discernable movement so far. I'm wondering if all the repairs over the years have locked things in place. Maybe when I get some planking and the stern post off I can get her back in shape. Some of the nuts are indeed dificult to remove. Fortunately, her bolts were replaced at some point and appear to be in pretty good shape.

    I've got that fastener removal article. It is really good. In my case, spinners and broken screws can usually just be cut from the other side with the multi master. Its amazing how a screw that isn't really holding on by much can be so difficult to get out!
    Chuck Thompson

  12. #362
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    I realize now that this gap is yet another symptom of the banana boat effect created probably by excessive backstay use. When I first saw this wedge-shaped gap, I could not understand why it would be that way. I thought it was just how the wood shrank. But I'm pretty sure now its the stern getting pulled up. I'm hoping she relaxes back but, so far, I haven't seen any change.

    Chuck Thompson

  13. #363

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckt View Post
    I realize now that this gap is yet another symptom of the banana boat effect created probably by excessive backstay use. When I first saw this wedge-shaped gap, I could not understand why it would be that way. I thought it was just how the wood shrank. But I'm pretty sure now its the stern getting pulled up. I'm hoping she relaxes back but, so far, I haven't seen any change.

    What you are seeing is quite common with Concordia's that have been raced a bit or ' Rig Improved ' . One thing a lot of boat owners do not know is that in structures like your sternpost and the knees inboard can and will stretch bronze bolts. Good white oak timber of this size can readily stretch long sil-bronze bolts if they are set up right and tight. Horntimbers are a typical problem area with these boats and with heavy backstay loads, sea loading of the long counter and slack seams the horntimber can in effect act like a lever on the sternpost. It can really only move so much but enough to start seams. Most of the time keeping your fingers crossed that the structure will settle back in is just wishful thinking. You will have to stabilize this the best you can and move on or consider getting heavily involved in an area that makes the stem look like child's play. Honestly I have seen much worse but you do have some movement going on.


    Bronze alloys used over the long span that these boats were built is kind of hit and miss really. A&R built them on order and I think they pulled of the shelf what they had at the time. Early on they may have had a lot of high quality silicon bronze but perhaps ten or fifteen years later they used Tobin bronze, Muntz metal or whatever. I was told about a surveyor back East quite a few years ago who was involved in a Concordia dismasting claim due to broken chainplates. He is a well known surveyor who is in and out of WoodenBoat publications and events quite a bit and very thorough and pretty scientific about things. So he sent the broken chainplates to a testing lab for analysis. They found they were Muntz metal. For those not familiar with this alloy it is essentially a brass consisting of nearly 40% zinc and not my idea of a suitable metal for such an application. Nevertheless it did last for many many years.

  14. #364
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Above flood level, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    17,701

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Ed Harrow View Post
    I also dropped the ballast, somewhere I have photos of that process and the ballast 'cradle' we made to hold the ballast.
    I'd find this interesting Ed! I have one tonne of cast iron to drop off of Looe soon. We were thinking of using a couple of trolly or bottle jacks to drop it on a cradle with castors. I think Chuck's shed floor is bare earth however.
    Jarndyce and Jarndyce

    The Mighty Pippin
    Mirror 30141
    Looe
    Dragon KA93

  15. #365
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Yes, I'm hoping that when I get the stern post and related planking removed I can coax it back in place.


    I don't have a plan yet for dropping the ballast. The ballast bolts were replaced no long ago so I am hoping to pull them. Its a lot of bolts though. Another idea is to just pull the two diagonal bolts and then drop the ballast--bolts and all.

    Maybe I should put an anchor in the ground and run something up to the backstay and crank on it to create some downward pressure.
    Last edited by chuckt; 09-09-2012 at 07:58 PM.
    Chuck Thompson

  16. #366
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    NWly shores of Lake Whitehall, MA
    Posts
    6,894

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    I think the odds of getting it back to where it should be are not very good. (I wonder if you removed it, steamed it, and then clamped it to a gig... but I wouldn't bet on that.)

    I don't understand your last comment.
    "Congress doesn't regulate Wall Street, Wall Street regulates Congress."

    MAKE WAY! MAKE WAY! "I have heard of some kind of men that put quarrels purposely on others."

    As a general rule, the better it felt when you said it, the more trouble it's going to get you into.

    International Financial Conspirator, Collaborator, Gun Runner, Ace Philosopher-King and all-around smartie pants

  17. #367
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Might be right Ed. Who knows how long it has been this way. I was thinking about attaching probably a cable to the very stern and running it to something secure on the ground and then putting tension on it to encourage the stern to drop.
    Chuck Thompson

  18. #368
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Chuck, if you're thinking along those lines, how about sitting a few drums on the aft deck and filling them with water? Along with a bit of hull irrigation.

    Are you able to get a photo of her overall in the shed showing how she's propped up?
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  19. #369
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Geesh Larks. Your way sounds too easy. Couldn't possibly do it the easy way. Don't know why I didn't think of that. 50 gallons = 415 pounds.

    I'll get a pic of the support but basically the ballast and deadwood are supported by lots of blocking with six stands, two bow support structures and one stern structure (now removed).
    Chuck Thompson

  20. #370
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    NWly shores of Lake Whitehall, MA
    Posts
    6,894

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by Duncan Gibbs View Post
    I'd find this interesting Ed! I have one tonne of cast iron to drop off of Looe soon. We were thinking of using a couple of trolly or bottle jacks to drop it on a cradle with castors. I think Chuck's shed floor is bare earth however.


    First issue, bolts bedded in 5200



    Fabricated cradle 'in-situ' with the ballast still supported with blocking.



    Jacked cradle and boat up 'a bit' together. A click or two of the jacks, a turn or two on the stands.



    Find suicidal friend...

    I set it down on steel pipes, 3" IIRC. The ballast weighs 6300 pounds.

    PS: Oops, looks like I got the order a bit backwards, but I'm sure you get the idea.

    PPS:



    Just for old-times sake.
    "Congress doesn't regulate Wall Street, Wall Street regulates Congress."

    MAKE WAY! MAKE WAY! "I have heard of some kind of men that put quarrels purposely on others."

    As a general rule, the better it felt when you said it, the more trouble it's going to get you into.

    International Financial Conspirator, Collaborator, Gun Runner, Ace Philosopher-King and all-around smartie pants

  21. #371

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Good old Finbar....

  22. #372
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    That looks like a good way to do it. I still have to get the diagonal bolts completely out or it obviously wont drop. This is just the kind of welding job I can do, i.e., the welds can look like crap and quantity can compensate for quality (to a certain extent). It might even be fun. Months away though, many months away.
    Chuck Thompson

  23. #373
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Wongawallan Oz
    Posts
    15,243

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Bump????
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  24. #374
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Lynden, Wa
    Posts
    3,211

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Yeah, Chuck. Whats up with Yawl?







    hahahahahahaha......... ok thats an old joke.
    There's the plan, then there's what actually happens.

    Ben Sebens, RN

    15' Welsford Navigator Inconceivable
    16' W. Simmons Mattinicus double ender ​Matty

  25. #375
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Thanks for the bumps. Yeah--what happened to me the last month? I've made rather little progress. Dang. I was distracted getting my Chris Craft ready to be sold. So close! Three offers but none panned out for different reasons.

    I did get one frame and one floor replaced in the past few weeks. I'm actually not done with it yet. Need to bolt the frames to the floor and reinforce where I scarfed into the exisitng frame. I'll post a pic of that later. I'm still in the area behind the engine and under the cockpit. Next up I have a bunch of frames under the engine that need to have their lower sections (the part in the bilge) replaced. I have an interesting plan on how to do that. Maybe I will start on that this weekend.

    I did decide to CPES the planking on either side of, and under, this frame. I was concerned that some electrical corrosion had occurred here between where that shift mechanism comes down and mounts to this frame and the bilge. It certainly looked that way. It did not seem like the planking was weak but it looked like corrosion might have leached out lingin. So I thought CPES here would be a good idea. I'm not convinced one way or another whether blanket CPES application to the hull is a good idea or not. Makes sense to me that it would be good to keep critters from eating in but perhaps not worht the expense? But I don't want to open up that debate on this thread. I do think it makes a lot of sense for a small area where one might be worried about some degradation that isn't bad enough to warrant complete planking replacement.

    So anyhoo--here is the most recent new frame and floor:





    Another shot of the area I am working in now.

    Last edited by chuckt; 10-05-2012 at 01:18 PM.
    Chuck Thompson

  26. #376
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Still plugging away at frame and floor repair. Took out the floor in the foreground of the picture immediately above. I had to take out sections of the frames on either side. They appeared compromised. I know I didn't get much of a scarf here but I had to go up that far. My plan is to put a "strap" on top of the joint by epoxying (Gflex) a piece of oak that overlaps both sides of the joint. I haven't seen anyone do it that way but I don't see why it would't work like a bronze strap--but better.

    Amazing how much time it takes to remove, fabricate the replacements, and get them back in. I'm about halfway through getting it done. I've got the pieces out and have laminated the replacement floor and frame pieces.




    Two interesting things here. One, the floor bolt was just a spike really. Would you call this a drift? Not really a long one either. Seems to me like this would not be the best way to do this. It appears to be how it was attached originally although I thought A&R was using iron. Second, the frame appears to have been cut by a bandsaw blade. I suppose to aid in bending. I thought it was a peculiar split but the same thing appears in all the frames in this area--so I realized it is a deliberate cut.

    Last edited by chuckt; 10-22-2012 at 06:13 AM.
    Chuck Thompson

  27. #377
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Strange. Post # 376 didn't bump my thread up so I'm doing this one to see if that does it.

    Yes, it did. Weird.
    Chuck Thompson

  28. #378
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    The land of reefs
    Posts
    32,057

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Yes. The forum's been weird on the refreshing thing lately....
    The bandsaw kerf is quite common.
    The bronze (copper?) spike/drift looks like it is pretty much just to hold the floor in place until all the other parts get installed.

  29. #379
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Just got a new toy! I've been wanting a decent compass for a while. Now if I were only ready to start on that Bateka dinghy I could put it to use!


    Lefty--the spike does seem to be copper. (P.S. No, it's bronze) It has "11" stamped on the top. Only one in the boat that I've seen. I wonder if it was supposed to be replaced by a bolt and got forgotten. (P.S. No, there are at least two of these in the boat. Both above the sternpost where a thru-bolt is not possible). Love to compare to another Concordia but the nearest ones are in Jacksonville.


    Last edited by chuckt; 10-22-2012 at 06:15 AM.
    Chuck Thompson

  30. #380
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,531

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    You'll need one of those red 'horse-leg' school pencils if you want to use that brand as a marking compass (damhikt).
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  31. #381
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    You know Dave, that very thought smacked me in the face when I opened the box. To my relief, however, a standard pencil (first relieved of its eraser head) fit into the compass. Maybe you got a different model?

    What's a red horse leg school pencil?
    Chuck Thompson

  32. #382
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    West Boothbay Harbor, Maine
    Posts
    23,531

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Well that's good! The horseleg was a larger diameter school pencil (probably not handed out anymore) that we used when kids in the fifties. I like them more than carpenter's pencils, but they are increasingly hard to find.
    If I had a dollar for every girl who found me unattractive, eventually they would find me attractive.

  33. #383
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    The land of reefs
    Posts
    32,057

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    That copper nail could have been an electrical ground spike.

  34. #384
    Join Date
    Mar 2000
    Location
    The land of reefs
    Posts
    32,057

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Quote Originally Posted by rbgarr View Post
    Well that's good! The horseleg was a larger diameter school pencil (probably not handed out anymore) that we used when kids in the fifties. I like them more than carpenter's pencils, but they are increasingly hard to find.
    I used "EBONY" artist pencils for a long time....


  35. #385
    Join Date
    Oct 2009
    Location
    Lexington, SC
    Posts
    5,050

    Default Re: Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

    Here is an interesting picture of the Concordia Yawl Niam. I will pretty much have these same planks off in a few months (I hope). I note her floors are all snug against the stern post and horn timber--unlike mine in this area. Fascinating for me to see the backbone construction that is not yet visible on mine and that I have been imagining for quite a while now. It looks to me like Concordia Boats replaced the frames with solid steam-bent oak. Does anyone know if that is right--maybe I just cant see well enough to tell? A&R switched to laminated because of all the frame failures so solid pieces don't seem right to me. I'm quite sure they know their business so must be an explanation.

    Last edited by chuckt; 10-17-2012 at 11:34 AM.
    Chuck Thompson

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •