Concordia Yawl #26 Restoration

[Garret]

Yeah.... That sounds messy, and difficult. I'd think that just holding the first half stack of lams in place against the hull could be done more effectively using spring boards and deadmen.....

Or just staple each layer down as you build the frame? That's how we've been doing it. Monel staples aren't cheap - but they're not totally out of sight (like bronze screws). I'll take a guess @ under $100 for about 700 lineal feet of 2 1/2x2 1/2 frames & sisters.

Neoga has her new frames built this way: Staple the first piece down (so it molds to the correct shape), epoxy on top, staple the 2nd layer, epoxy, staple the 3rd, etc. until it's the desired thickness. After that's all done, screw in from the outside as one would with any frame. A few have had to be built as Chuck describes due to space limitations - but only 6-8 (out of 90 or so).

[davidagage]

We have been through several different ways to mold the frames in. First we started by trying to press them down onto place. Could never get enough pressure to get them into the tight curves. Then thru bolting using existing screw holes, That worked but it does become a 2 person job and as you tighten up the bolt you run the chance of flattening out the curvature a bit. Then we made up a couple wooden brackets that we would attach to the adjacent frames, put a pipe in between them then wedge the new frames down. But finally, after all these methods, we started using a modified method of Garret's approach. Instead of stapling them into place we are using bronze ring shank nails. It's easy, fast and works great!

[chuckt]

The bronze nails didn't create too much of a hole in the planking? Maybe its a small nail?

An idea I've been playing with in my mind is to take part of a pipe clamp (the piece with the screw on it) and screw it onto the rib I'm going to replace and then tighten the lamination down. Maybe this will give you an idea of what I'm talking about.



Please tell me more about the staples and the bronze nails. On the staple, I kinda feel like a staple is not going to hold the lamination down on these tight curves. I picture the nails leaving a big hole in the planking. Or do you just leave the nails in the planking? How big nails? Nails through several layers? The entire lamination?

[Mrleft8]

Ring shank nails (Bronze) could be left in place, and hold like..... They hold really, really well. You will need to drill pilot holes though. I found that out the hard way. A bronze ring shank nail that bends over after being hammered half way into a piece of wet White Oak does not pull out with a claw hammer.

[Garret]

Hi Chuck -

The first set of staples or nails is only to hold the bottom lamination in place - so they only go into the plank 3/8 or 1/2 inch. Then the next one (assuming 3/16 lams) goes through the 1st lam & into the plank 3/16 or so. The third won't go into the plank, etc, etc. Once it's all built & cured, you drill holes & screw the planks to the frame just as you would with a sawn frame.

We leave all the staples in there - encased in epoxy, except for the bit that goes into the plank.

[chuckt]

There are some pretty drastic curves I have to bend around. I'm not sure staples will hold the pieces.

What size nails are we talking about here?

I just got done looking back in the stern of the boat and, actually, on many of the new laminations, they left the bolts on. That does't sound like a good idea.

[Mrleft8]

The nails I got (I needed 6, I had to buy a 1 Lb. box) are about 1 1/4" long by about 1/8" OD.... The root or narrower dimension is probably 3/32". After my initial failure, I drilled holes just a scootchie hair smaller than the root diameter, and they went in very nicely, but did not pull out, even with fairly strong pressure from a claw hammer.

[chuckt]

So Doug did you laminate the whole stack in place, drill, and then nail? How did you get the gooed-up lamination to stay in place while you drilled a hole and drove your nail?

[davidagage]

Chuck, I steamed a set of strips into place then the next day came back and nailed the first strip into place then gooed and nailed the next stirip followed by the next yada yada yada. I am doing full length frames since the deck is not in place, and with the bilge stringer in place I am having to slide the strips from sheer to keel (close to 7 feet long in places).The nails I am using are 1-1/4 long, and if I remember, 12 gauge.

[Mrleft8]

The nails I am using are 1-1/4 long, and if I remember, 12 gauge.

Around here, we call that "David Gauge"....

[Mrleft8]

Sorry to say, Chuck, that in my application there were no laminations, just red hot steam bent frames that required me to be part micro surgeon, and part contortionist to install. If I were to do it again, I think I'd find another set of hands to help.

[Garret]

Around here, we call that "David Gauge"....

Actually, I'd call it the "shotgun approach".....

[davidagage]

Actually, I'd call it the "shotgun approach".....

You guys nailed it on the head...

OK, enough punny business, now get back to work!

[Garret]

But this code I'm working on is really boring!

Back to Chuck's question though - I'll have to see if I can get a pic of my sharpest bend.

[chuckt]

Part contortionist is right Doug. I tried to crawl in the space in the stern last night. I got partly in and for a few minutes could not get out. Visions of the County firefighters destroying my Concordia with the jaws of life to get me out were going through my head. Okay the nails makes sense to me now.

David has a good idea to steam the strips first. BUt I can just picture the traditionalists rolling their eyes and saying (yelling) "If you are going to do all that you might as well just steam bend a full-size piece of that locust--forget about laminating with goop!!" I might try it.

But David, I still don't understand how you nailed the first strip in with a 1 1/4" nail without the nail sticking up or going all the way through the plank???? And why not go ahead and steam bend a full-size piece. My reason would be I like the added strength of a laminated frame and I don't trust myself to evaluate the grain of the piece so that it isn;t subject to breaking. And, finally, Abeking went to laminated frames on these boats for a reason.

[Garret]

While I've never done it, I'd be concerned about the combination of a steamed lamination & epoxy. My experiences is that epoxy wants dry wood to glue. Am I all wet? (Sorry 'twas there)

[chuckt]

Arggghhh! The puns! Actually, it's an art to do really bad puns.

Hopefully Mr. Bob (or someone else) will correct me if I say something wrong but I don't think steaming introduces any moisture that the wood keeps. The issue would be that steamed wood is more wet before steaming because you need that moisture to effectively transfer the heat and plasticize the wood. So you are typically using green wood or wood that has been soaking. Which is why kiln dried wood does'nt bend as well with steaming. If anything, I think steaming might remove some moisture. I have steam bent strips of kiln dried wood and it seemed to work well enough. But those strips were thin. I don't think you could steam bend a thick piece of kiln dried wood without a lot of pre-soaking.

[davidagage]

Chuck, here inlies the difference in our boats. Black Spirit is a strip planked boat with the planks being about 1" thick. The frame strips I am using are 1/4" so in the end, no nail tips came through (well except a couple and then I peened the tips. I did try to bend in 1-1/2" oak frame stock. Since I still have the bilge stringer inplace I could not set the ends and press the middle into place, I have to Slide the frame in from the sheer clamp down to the keel. With a full thickness board it just wouldn't work. So I sliced them into thirds thickness wise and that worked pretty good. I abandoned the oak however, since the vendor decided that I didn't need the glue that I ordered by never shipping it (that's another rant for another time) so I changed to mahogany and epoxy in 6 ea 1/4" strip thicknesses for a 1-1/2" total thickness. Once I got then glued into place I go to the outside and using #14 X 2 bronze screws, I fasten the hull planking to the new frame.

I would think that the first strip you lay is not/should not/would not be gooed to the planking since your'e carvel planked?

[chuckt]

Thanks David. Now I understand.

And no, I would not glue the first strip to the planking. I plan to use wax paper to keep the glue off the planking. The process, as I envision it, requires laminating in place, removing the frame and cleaning it up and then put it back in and fastening.

Your comment about the stringer clicked a light bulb in my head. I had hoped to completely replace some bad frames. That might be dificult or impossible with that stringer in the way. I think I will be crawling into the boat again tonight so I can look and think about that. I would rather remove and replace frames. I think adding a new row of fasteners right next to an old one is goign to weaken my planking. And I worry that just doing a sister over a crack in an old frame leaves portions of the old frame that aren't overlapped to continue to wiggle/flex at their fasteners.

[chuckt]

I have heard BL is tough. But there are a lot of folks here using it. If you do a google search or the forum you will find lots of references to its use for backbone structures and, to a lesser extent, for laminating frames.

[Mrleft8]

If I remembr correctly, the frames on the Concordia are tapered, and it would be easier to insert them from the garboard up to the sheer than the other way around... Certainly trying the kerf from both ends thing would be worth a test. I'd try 3 kerfs at the bilge end and 2 up top. Do it dry in a few places (Dry as in no adhesive) with the most wicked turn in the bilge just to see if it can be done... I think steam as well as kerfing might be called for back in the under cockpit area.... Hopefully this would also allow you to slightly twist the whole frame as it's installed so that beveling could be eliminated..... Or at least significantly reduced.

[Mrleft8]

And yeah..... Black Locust is tough, but it's no tougher than Hickory, or White Oak in my experience, and not nearly as tough as Teak or Iroko.

[chuckt]

I just got back from the boat eyeballing the frames i can see. A lot of stuff has to come out to do a full frame replacement. Oh well.

Man--all the keel and ballast bolt heads look really good--they look pretty new. The surveyor didn't comment on them. Dave (rbgarr)--you still there? Do you know when they were replaced? Dave--what was the yard she was at. I'm thinking of seeing if I can buy the maintenance records if they have them.

[davidagage]

Now that I have slept on it..
I agree with seayou7, remove the offending frame then copy it on the bench. This will make it easier to match the bevel. Then slide or lay it into place and re-attach to the hull but I would probably not go thru the original fastening hole but redrill new ones and plug the old ones. (Alot of the the original hiles in our planking didn't have enough purchase to hold well).

[chuckt]

Okay--ya'll may be right. I agree it's going to be a hassle laminating in place and I think I will not be happy with the appearance--even if I'm the only one aware of the appearance. Getting those bevels right bothers me though. And transfering the shape of the hull to the bench worries me too. I wonder if Abeking laminated in place or did it on the bench. Another thing to look and figure out!

Seayou--remember (or if you didn't know I'm letting you know) that Abeking did laminated frames on these boats beginning in the late 50s--and added laminated half-frames to the earlier boats that had steam-bent frames.

[davidagage]

To do a right proper job at frame replacement, the best way is to start with a semi-cleane slate. Clear out as much of the congestion as possible.

The first picture is Black Spirit, about 3 years ago, before frame replacement really started, alot has changed since then..
The next 2 are of Sarah

[chuckt]

Cool pictures David.

Mary Ann's owners have tried to address the frame issue over the years. I don't think I will have to remove the interior as pictured above. I probably will in the engine area as several frames there look bad. I have about 10-12 frames to address. Most of the frames aft have been sistered with laminated sister frames. Most of the frames amidships have a second oak frame steam-bent next to the old one. She has new laminated frames around the new mast step. The original frames forward look good. Its just the 10-12 frames that were not addressed that need replacement. And 2-3 of those sister repairs where it looks like the old frame is pretty bad. I do have a lot of floors to replace. About half have been replaced already and look pretty good.

[Larks]

Chuck, would a jigger stick work for transferring the shape onto your bench in this case? Or is there not the space to use one? If you are wondering what I'm talking about have a look at one being used here:

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-II-quot/page3

[Mrleft8]

To do a right proper job at frame replacement, the best way is to start with a semi-cleane slate. Clear out as much of the congestion as possible.

The first picture is Black Spirit, about 3 years ago, before frame replacement really started, alot has changed since then..
The next 2 are of Sarah

A semi-cleane state can really only occur in olde England...
And how come I don't ever remember there being that much open space inside of Sarah? Where're all the carefully looped extension cords waiting to snag your ankle? Where's the Glade "Spring morning" automatic air fresheners? Who moved the batteryless cordless drill, and the flashlight that glows orange?....

[Concordia 33]

Before I bought Goblin in '81 I was looking at a Concordia that had a nice mahogony interior. I don't know if that was original or a do over. Don't even recall which Concordia she was.

It was original and it has alternately been named Phantom and Eden. She was special ordered with a Mahogany interior and since her owner was in the US embassy in France, she was delivered there and spent her first few years in Europe before coming state side. Unless she has recently been restored, I understand that she needs a lot of structural work.

[chuckt]

Larks-A jigger board would work to transfer the shape to the bench. Raka is doing that with Amphora I may go that way for some or all the frames. Can't decide.

[Matti]

The glue is not mentioned. Resorcinol is the only glue I've heard of being used then. And it was used on oak. Just do a google search of the forum and you will find pictures of huge oak laminations that Bob Smasler has posted.

Is it possible that the glue is/was aerolite.
Resorcinol is dark redbrown, very easy to identify, aerolite is light colourless, like the picture you have showing delamination half frame.

[chuckt]

Here's another idea I find intriguing. It comes from an article in Woodenboat by Daniel McNaughton who gives credit to Bud McIntsoh for the idea. Apparently Bud uses this technique on spars. Basically, one grinds a scarf on both sides of the break and laminates on top and then grinds and sands that down to look pretty. I like this much better than doing a sister and, although I am still thinking about it, I don't see why it isn't just as good as doing a whole new frame. The issue I'm toying with is gluing to the old frame. In my case this is oak which means resorcinol (requiring proper clamping, temperature, and a really good fit) or GFlex--which has less of a track record. I myself would not trust regular epoxy gluing to the old oak.

I also wonder how it would work on an outside bend where the lam would want to spring away from the bend. For an inside bend the ends of the lam want to move toward the frame.

The illustration from the article tell the story:

[Raka025]

I like that idea but you will need to make the width of the strips bigger to accommodate the bevels, at least in both ends of the boat. I think rib #47 has a 20 degree bevel You could wax paper it in and than plane or bandsaw it ? Rivets would give me more security but you have a bilge stringer to contend with!

[rbgarr]

Another way to keep your boat tight while working on her ashore for long periods.

Soaker hose under plastic with a timed faucet:

[wizbang 13]

You can lam the frames in there under the stringer using shorter lams and a power planer. With a little practice, long long scarphs in quarter inch lams can be buzzed out in moments.
One wants to remove the frame to clean it up nicely, but again, with a little practice on a slow speed 1500-200 7" DISC OR 8" SOFTPAD WITH 24 OR 36 GRIT , dam cap lock, sander / polisher, one can dress them nicely.
The last boat I re framed, I put copper nails from the inside out, piercing the planking , then bent them aft and punched the tip in. Fastening from the outside in is tough, fastenings will break through the new frame and split, in my experience.
That said, remember I work fast Chuck, not as carefully as you, (thangawd)

[Phil Y]

Nice boat, great project. Someone above said take all your estimates and X3. Second that. You commented above that a method of replacing ribs which involved half laminating in place, then going to the bench seemed labour intensive. Hey, its all going to be labour intensive. And you'll be needing those stairs. There's some good stuff on rib replacement here-http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...-a-travel-lift Finally, when my dad built his boat many years ago, they put the planks on first, then fitted the steamed ribs inside. They made up a nifty little clamp which I'll try to describe. Basically a couple of flat steel "claws"-roughly a square C shape if that makes sense, which slip through the gaps between planks, they were hinged, and the hinge welded to a nut, which has a bolt through it. You work from the outside of hull, slip the claws between the planks, close them around the rib, then screw the bolt in, which presses against the outside of the plank, pulling the rib hard against the inside of the plank. Does that make sense? Sorry no pics.

[Phil Y]

PS-love the shed. Wife sounds like a good-un too.

[chuckt]

Thanks Phil. I can picture the clamp. I have a clamp idea of my own. I hear what Bruce is saying too.

The Olinka repairs are instructive also. I have a PM to them with some questions about how they did it.

I may just experiment. I know I don't want to add rows of fasteners so no more sister frames.

20 degrees. Your'e right Rob. Hadn't thought of how this method would go with such a bevel. Sigh. There is no perfect solution.

[chuckt]

Okay--I am going to shamelessly shill for a crew spot on a Concordia at Eggemoggin. I'd love to get some sailing time on one of these boats. Laid-back skipper preferred as I could be a liability to winning the race! I was going to sail with Raka on Sea Hawk but he now has other plans. I won't say what but he should do thread on it!

Like this:

[Jay Greer]

There is a mention of Owl's work in a recent Concordia newsletter and here: http://newframesfortheoldgirl.blogspot.com/

I've read it mentioned a few times, and seen it myself, that the laminated oak frames in these gals are failing. Like this one on Owl:



I had assumed this was resorcinol since that would have fit the time period but I'm not so sure.

I suspect that the glue they used was "Weldwood Plastic Resin Glue by Bordens" Historically it would have been a bad choice as it does not adhear to oak very well at all. If it were Resorcinol the seams would be very dark. Resorcinol glue was just in its infancy at that time. Regardless of what was used, fortunatly, we have better glues now. My own choice would be G/flex as it is more forgiving as to clamp pressure in a difficult area such as this. Our own research has satisfied us that G/flex can be depended on to hold difficult and oily woods till hell freezes over!
Jay

[P.L.Lenihan]

Mr. Greer's observation regarding the time line for the glue used is very illuminating.

Another epoxy glue for your consideration Chuck, is G-2 from Industrial Formulators( now System Three). It has no issues with the tannic acid in white oak etc....

http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/G-2-c30.htm

Cheers!


Peter

[chuckt]

Thanks gentlemen. I've used the GFlex a bit and it does have some nice characteristics. Rockport Marine used it to rebuild Bolero--including using it with oak rib laminations. I still think I will use resorcinol on the underwater parts.

Still waiting on my load of black locust. Which is okay--I made clear I wasn't in a hurry and willing to wait for the right pieces to become available if necessary.

Bolero:

[chuckt]

I did manage to find time to build stairs. And she is encased in plastic sheeting which works surprisingly well. The humidity has varied between 60% to 85%. I just have to wet down the dirt occaisonally.

I could not find my tiki torches.

[Garret]

Looks good - but you forgot the tiki torches!

[P.L.Lenihan]

Nice set up Chuck, with the plastic around the hull and those wonderful stairs.By the time you'll be ready to re-launch, you have buns-o-steel to drive the lady folk crazy!



Cheers!


Peter

[Mrleft8]

I'm thinking a nice Boston Fern, or False Aurelia up there on the landing might be a nice touch..... Give it a little color and texture.....

[chuckt]

Yes--I failed on the decorating. Couldn't find the torches. I really should bring in some jungle plants--with all that lovely humidity under the boat.

Who says I don't already have buns of steel Petey? It actually does give your legs a bit of burn on those days when one is up and down into the boat. Maybe we should have some forumites put together a workout video! Stairs, sanding, lifting timbers, contorting into tight spaces . . . . "The woodenboat workout"

[davidagage]

One of these days I am going to count the number of times I am up and down the stairs, between that and the Jumping (to conclusions) and the Running (off at the mouth) I get lots of exercise! :-)

Since you couldn't find the tiki torches, then the tropical plants are a must !

[chuckt]

If only that counted David