Atkin Fore An' Aft Cutter Model

[WX]

I bought a model of the Scottish Maid once but could get my head around the planking process. it sits unfinished in a wooden chest.
Good thread.

[Tom Freeman]

I'm still not sure if I will steam bend frames or just cut formers out of light plywood for our project. If I do steam bend, I am thinking that Jessica's vegetable steamer on the stove will work just fine. I haven't told her about this yet.

[jsjpd1]

That might be a plan best kept to yourself Tom. Bend in the frames, steam bending is fun.

Jim

[PeterSibley]

Don't forget to back out the planking Jim .

[jsjpd1]

If I remember right that boat is drawn with the ballast bolts going up through the keel but not through floors. It would certainly be easier to do that on a small scale.

I have long loved Fore an' Aft and was pretty set on building it as the "big boat" to sail away on. I am now slowly and somewhat grudgingly moving to Gartside's 30' cutter as a more refined iteration of the same thing. Someday... Someday. But I will very much enjoy watching this little boat come together. Maybe it will sway me back the other way.

I went back and looked at the plans again, and you were right about the keel boats only going through the keel but not the floors Madison.

Fore An' Aft is a lovely boat and you're already building the Maid, so all the mysteries of building an Atkin cutter will have been revealed should you decide to go with the next size up.

I bought a model of the Scottish Maid once but could get my head around the planking process. it sits unfinished in a wooden chest.
Good thread.

Thanks Gary, and I certainly have a couple unfinished projects hiding in various places. A half finished giant scale(whatever that is) F-4U Corsair springs to mind.

Don't forget to back out the planking Jim .

Now there's something that will require consideration!

Jim

[PeterSibley]

Now there's something that will require consideration!

Jim

120grit ?

[gilberj]

I remember seeing Fore An' Aft in the '60's when it visited Kingsville cruising in Company with the Fenwick Williams Yawl now known as Annie. My Father and olde brother were very impressed with Fore An' Aft. I was completely enamoured with the yawl.
I am still impressed with both.

[jsjpd1]

I see there is a Fore An' Aft currently for sale on the east coast. It'd be mighty tempting if it wasn't 4500 miles or so away and on the wrong coast.

[jsjpd1]

120grit ?

One of these only smaller.

htt

[jsjpd1]

I managed to spent a few hours this weekend and got the rabbit cut in the stem and keel. I tried to take some decent pictures but it seems to be a hard detail to see. I was rather pleasantly surprised at how easy it was to pick the bearding line off the lofting with a little bit of plank stock, a pencil, and the dividers. I've seen it explained a couple of times and I've always been left with an, "I get it I guess", sort of feeling.

Anyway, a few pictures. Since I didn't have any tiny rabbet planes on hand it was a chisel work.





Checking the depth of the rabbet with a bit of plank thickness stock.





It's not as pretty as I had hoped for, but not terrible either.



Now it's time to get that ballast on.

Jim

[PeterSibley]

I can see the advantages of building a model of any boat prior to the full size job Jim .

BTW , what timber is the backbone on your model? I'm not very good on US timbers .

[jsjpd1]

Except for the knee at the stem the whole of the back bone is oak. I didn't have a piece of oak wide enough for the knee so that is a nice scrap of old grow fir, or oregon if you prefer.

[PeterSibley]

Except for the knee at the stem the whole of the back bone is oak. I didn't have a piece of oak wide enough for the knee so that is a nice scrap of old grow fir, or oregon if you prefer.

I love it when Americans talk Australian !

[JoshuaIII]

Don't worry about the rabbet, with the red lead putty before the planking and some good cotton caulking she will be tight at sea

[Jim Ledger]

It's difficult to carve fine detail in White Oak, it's tough and stringy. Doug Fir is another wood with carving issues, the different densities between the early and latewood make smooth carving difficult. They both make good keels, but on a model scale the effect of the grain becomes magnified.

[Alex Low]

Is this the solution?



Isn't it cute...

Alex

[Sailor]

I love Lee Valley. They opened one near you Alex just a couple of years ago didn't they? There's been one here ever since before I got here. I love that place.

[PeterSibley]

Jelutong is one of the better model making and pattern making timbers, a very fine and indiscernible grain.

[capnharv]

On steaming model planks/frames- I normally soak them in water for about a half hour, wrap them in a wet paper towel, and microwave for about 15-20 seconds. That's using Basswood. Something like boxwood or ebony is a different animal.

[jsjpd1]

Alright, so it was a bit of a two steps back sort of day. After thinking it over a bit I decided I didn't like the way things were going with the current backbone. Aside from the rabbet not being all I'd hoped for, I realized that an error I'd made in the stern post was going to give no end of trouble later if I didn't address it now and I wanted the stem to be left a little long so I could have the option of adjusting the sheer.

There's never time to do it right, there's always time to do it over, as my Dad is fond of telling me.



This time I'm using Alaskan Yellow Cedar and I cut a bit of rabbet in the new keel before going forward. It's very fine grained an cut very nicely.

The problem at the stern post was that I took a bit too much where the transom goes and then cut the rabbet to the lower mark.



Here's the stem, the bottom mark on the new stem is where the old one ended.



I didn't really want to start over, but I think it will be for the best going forward. I sure am glad I'm not wasting great big buckets full of money on a full sized version just yet.

Jim

[Jim Ledger]

As I'm fond of telling my students, "You can't build on disappointment".

Go forward with a glad heart.

[jsjpd1]

As I'm fond of telling my students, "You can't build on disappointment".

Go forward with a glad heart.

With a glad heart it is.

[jsjpd1]

On steaming model planks/frames- I normally soak them in water for about a half hour, wrap them in a wet paper towel, and microwave for about 15-20 seconds. That's using Basswood. Something like boxwood or ebony is a different animal.

That's an interesting idea and I'll give it some thought. Last time I steam bent model frames I set up a steamer using a heavy duty cardboard tube, which worked great but wouldn't survive another round of steaming. I have a 10 ft box but that's a little big for this project.

Is this the solution?



Isn't it cute...

Alex

It's tempting Alex, very tempting. But I made this instead and it seems to work alright.



Better than before, and it's going faster too.



Back to where I started before this little do over.



Jim

[PeterSibley]

That's great Jim ! Don't I wish it was that fast full scale !

The new timber does look a lot better at 12:1 scale.

[J.Madison]

Not that it matters at all on the model but don't cast the ballast for the big one that size in lead! Wasn't it drawn for cast iron? It would need a few minutes of math and some time on the lofting board before you could cast it in lead and not sit three inches low. Or... you could cast it that size in lead and leave out a corresponding amount of internal ballast I suppose. That is an idea. Alright carry on.

Looking good by the way.

[JoshuaIII]

Not that it matters at all on the model but don't cast the ballast for the big one that size in lead! Wasn't it drawn for cast iron? It would need a few minutes of math and some time on the lofting board before you could cast it in lead and not sit three inches low. Or... you could cast it that size in lead and leave out a corresponding amount of internal ballast I suppose. That is an idea. Alright carry on.

Looking good by the way.

Yeah the fore an aft carry a good propportion of the ballast inside also, lead inside cast Iron outside if I remember well.

[jsjpd1]

Not that it matters at all on the model but don't cast the ballast for the big one that size in lead! Wasn't it drawn for cast iron? It would need a few minutes of math and some time on the lofting board before you could cast it in lead and not sit three inches low. Or... you could cast it that size in lead and leave out a corresponding amount of internal ballast I suppose. That is an idea. Alright carry on.

Looking good by the way.

This is something I've thought about quite a bit. The plan calls for a cast iron ballast of 3500 lbs and the same weight of lead pigs for internal ballast. If/when it is time to build the full sized one having a iron ballast cast down south and shipped up will be somewhat cost prohibitive. IIRC The same sized ballast cast in lead would weight in the neighborhood of 5700 lbs which would still leave ~1300 lbs of internal ballast for trim and I'd be able to cast it on sight.

[jsjpd1]

That's great Jim ! Don't I wish it was that fast full scale !

The new timber does look a lot better at 12:1 scale.

Thanks Peter. Maybe you should build a couple yourself since your still casting about for the perfect boat. It might help you make up your mind, and it'd give you something to do while the shed floats away.

[jsjpd1]

I also attached the ballast to the backbone tonight.





I got this far and realized that the kids had made off with my nippers so I couldn't cut the nails off for riveting.



20 minutes later I found them laying behind the kids work bench. At least they like to build things. I'm going to have to get another tool kit together.



Jim

[PeterSibley]

This is something I've thought about quite a bit. The plan calls for a cast iron ballast of 3500 lbs and the same weight of lead pigs for internal ballast. If/when it is time to build the full sized one having a iron ballast cast down south and shipped up will be somewhat cost prohibitive. IIRC The same sized ballast cast in lead would weight in the neighborhood of 5700 lbs which would still leave ~1300 lbs of internal ballast for trim and I'd be able to cast it on sight.

IIRC iron weighs 500 pound per cubic foot while lead weighs 700 pound cf.

3500 lb would be 7 cubic feet of iron.The same volume of lead would weigh 4900 pound.

As to building a model of any boat before building ...agreed ! An excellent idea .

[jsjpd1]

IIRC iron weighs 500 pound per cubic foot while lead weighs 700 pound cf.

3500 lb would be 7 cubic feet of iron.The same volume of lead would weigh 4900 pound.

Even better Peter.

I've started messing with the transom. Which will be two layers of Mahogany laminated together to form the arc required.

Here's the initial glue up.



And the roughed out transom hung on the stern post.





I'm adding framing so that there will be some meat to attach the planking to.



Next I'm going to start in on the floor timbers that coincide with the station molds so that I have an easy way to clamp the molds to the keel. I've also been debating whether or not to cut notches in the keel for the frame ends. What do you all think?

Jim

[PeterSibley]

As with a full scale build it should make it easier to hold them in place although a few staples would do as well .

You have certainly convinced me to build a model prior to any full size job.

[Bob Cleek]

I'm still not sure if I will steam bend frames or just cut formers out of light plywood for our project. If I do steam bend, I am thinking that Jessica's vegetable steamer on the stove will work just fine. I haven't told her about this yet.

A plastic bag with some water and the frame in it stuck in the microwave will take care of steaming in a jiffy.

[Bob Cleek]

Have you had a chance to read any of the classic works on ship modeling? Charles Davis and Harold Underhill are the big name authors. The Nautical Research Guild's "Ship Modeler's Shop Notes" is great, too. Building a model in exactly the same fashion as the full scale vessel, "Naval Board" style, is a very challenging task, even in a large scale like you are using here. While it may be counterintuitive, building a model is often quite different from building the real thing, even if you know how to build the real thing. In modeling, "tricks of the trade" are everything. The backbone isn't a big problem, but once the rest of the boat starts to go together, the hassles start. Remember that the same stresses, although somewhat to scale, are going to be imposed on the structure as you build her up. Unless the framing (or formers if you are using bulkheads) is structurally very rigidly held, planking will become a nightmare. You fasten in one spot and something breaks or lets go elsewhere. For this reason, models are almost always framed and planked upside down, with the frame heads or patterns set firmly in a base. (Some plank on bulkhead kits are built using a "keel vise," but they are tricky.) The frames or other formers are then removed from the base only after the planking is done and the frame heads trimmed to length.. If you haven't planned ahead, you will almost certainly run into these sort of problems. The books have all the information on how to do it and avoid the hassles you're bound to encounter on the first go round. Model Ship World forum is a good resource. http://modelshipworld.com/phpBB2/index.php



http://mysite.verizon.net/ELLshipmodeler/hull.htm

A lot of other details go into the mix as well. Lead isn't favored in ship modeling these days because lead is prone to "bloom" and decompose. This may not be a big problem with a ballast keel such as yours, but is more problematic with small detail castings. Still, you may encounter problems getting paint to stick to your lead ballast over time. Things like using the right kind of wood are important. A nice piece of softwood of a species that expands and contracts with humidity changes can tear apart a model, expecially if mixed with other more stable woods. Using the wrong material for rigging (e.g. cotton) can cause the same problems if the line expands and contracts with humidity. Too loose and it looks awful. Too tight and you risk it shriking and busting up the spars.

You're doing a great job, so I don't want to discourage you, but building an "as built" model, without cutting corners with solid hulls and so forth, is a delicate task. If you haven't read up on modeling techniques, you'll enjoy doing so and may save yourself a lot of grief.

[jsjpd1]

No worries Bob. Thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts and suggestions for reading. I haven't read any books on modeling, but I definitely take your point that things get tricky at a small scale with bend forces pulling things out of whack and quickly to ruin. The links you posted look pretty interesting and I will explore them further, I've been trying to think ahead a steps but it has started to get a bit tricky trying to set station molds if there's nothing to set them too. I think I've worked out a solution, but that may just be optimism talking. On the plus side, once I redid the backbone I decided to stick with yellow cedar for the rest of the build (excepting the transom) so hopefully that will mitigate the issue of different rates of wood movement.

Jim

[P.L.Lenihan]

A plastic bag with some water and the frame in it stuck in the microwave will take care of steaming in a jiffy.

Excellent suggestion Mr.Cleek but what's the rush? Besides, I'm almost certain Tom's description of how it went once Jessica found out about him using her vegetable steamer promises to be far more entertaining....in a good way,of course!



Cheers!


Peter

[P.L.Lenihan]

Looks like you are really enjoying yourself Jim! The manifold challenges ahead will keep your imagination and spirit in great shape. Of course, once built, she can live on your night table near your bed so that the last thing you see before heading off to dream land will be her alluring shape to fuel wonderful dreams for the full sized model. Lucky you!!

Keep having fun!


Cheers!


Peter

[Tom Freeman]

Excellent suggestion Mr.Cleek but what's the rush? Besides, I'm almost certain Tom's description of how it went once Jessica found out about him using her vegetable steamer promises to be far more entertaining....in a good way,of course!



Cheers!


Peter

It's a good thing that my lovely wife has little-to-no interest in reading this forum.

[jsjpd1]

Looks like you are really enjoying yourself Jim! The manifold challenges ahead will keep your imagination and spirit in great shape. Of course, once built, she can live on your night table near your bed so that the last thing you see before heading off to dream land will be her alluring shape to fuel wonderful dreams for the full sized model. Lucky you!!

Keep having fun!


Cheers!


Peter

Thanks Peter, fun is still definitely present! I've decided to cut in sockets for the frame heels and I've got the first few cut. I'm not sure which is going to be the bigger challange dealing with the competing forces present at this scale and reaching a successful completion or keeping the kids from making off with the wee ship once it's done. The older one has already asked for it several times, and was quite thrilled to find out the first atempt was a do over, promptly approriating it for heself. Perhaps there'll end up being two boats in some shape or form just to keep mine safe from sticky little fingers.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

It's a good thing that my lovely wife has little-to-no interest in reading this forum.

She must really like her steamer then.

[Bob Cleek]

... it has started to get a bit tricky trying to set station molds if there's nothing to set them too.

Yep, it's damn near impossible without using a building jig to hold the molds in place. There's just too much leverage between the outter ends of the molds and any fastening you'd make to the keel. One careless move and they get snapped off. That attachment at the keel probably won't be strong enough to permit the rough handling that planking often occasions. However, if you can get them all in place and fastened to the keel, fastening battens as you would when building the full size boat will certainly stiffen up the structure remarkably. These are usually fastened with strong thread or string tied around the batten and frame. It can be easily cut to remove the batten and doesn't leave holes that weaken the mold or frame.

[PeterSibley]

Jim, could you hot glue a batten on the inside of the molds at the top? Hot glue is pretty easy to cut away if you need to .

[jsjpd1]

Well I can see now that poor planning when cutting out the station molds has left me in a bit of a bind, since I didn't set the tops to all be the same for flipping it over. This also makes setting them up as a jig somewhat more complicated too. I could start the station molds over again with that in mind or I could build a jig around what I have.

This is what I'm thinking about for the latter approach.



The floors corresponding the the stations would be permanently installed after the frame pockets are cut. This would give me something to clothespin or hot glue to at the keel. There would also be short braces from the top beam to the cross members of the molds holding the tops steady. That should allow a stable enough set up to add stringers. Then the whole mess could be flipped over for the garboard to be fitted, then flipped again to install the frames, and once more upside down to finish out the planking. After that the station molds could come out so the remaining frames, floors, ceiling, etc. can be added.

Thoughts?
Jim

[JoshuaIII]

If I were you, I would do the mold to steam bent on the outside of the ribband instead of the inside.

This way you can make a jig, and nail those mold upside down so they are aligned then put the backbone upside down over all those and everything will be aligned first try. Then you can steam bent the frames outside easily, a bit like Duncan build is right now...

Just a Idea...

[Bob Cleek]

Since you've already built your molds, you may want to try "Hahn's method" for a framing and planking jig.

You'll find it in the "framing and planking" section of The Model Shipwrights Data Base, which should be quite helpful to you. www.modelshipwrightsdatabase.com/Page/01pr.htm

[jsjpd1]

Still plugging away, I finished up the notches for the frame heels today. Not a terribly exciting job I'm afraid, cutting the rabbet was much more fun and took about half the time. Oh well, 32 notches per side and with a little luck tomorrow it will be on to floors. I'm still not quite set on setting up frames for planking but the floors need to go in next no matter what.



Jim

[JoshuaIII]

What are you going to use for fasteners? Toothpick and glue I guess?

Looking forward for the frames step

[jsjpd1]

The floors will be big enough to accept small drifts into the keel along with a bit of glue. The planking will just be glued with no fasteners all. The frames are just too small and would be weaken to the point of failure to try and use any kind of mechanical fastener.

Jim

[Sailor]

How about a picture of you holding it so we can get an idea of scale?

[jsjpd1]

Here you go Sailor.



Three floors in place.



Each one has been glued and drifted in place like so.





I would have headed the drifts with washers but the washers were wider than the floors.

Jim