Atkin Fore An' Aft Cutter Model

[JoshuaIII]

Love this project... You are aware that cloth pin won't work with the full size version

[jsjpd1]

You are aware that cloth pin won't work with the full size version

They won't? Darn it, I already started making them.

[JoshuaIII]

They won't? Darn it, I already started making them.

Good! Maybe you can contact those guys they may be interested in those you have done:

[Sailor]

Safety goggles, a hammer and her own piece of wood. I like to have my son with me when I do work as well. He's not quite as old as her (he's 4) but he does enjoy "helping" daddy in the shop. I'm thinking of starting a model as well. Will you just build the hull and finish it for display or is this meant to rough out ideas for her cabin spaces and interior setup? I really like the progress you've made so far. How much time is in it already and how much do you figure will be in it by the time you are finished?

[jsjpd1]

That's my younger daughter she's four and a half. It's pretty nice having the girls hang out and work on their projects. Between her and her sister (7) I have a hard time keeping the scrap bin full. When I get to that point I do plan on laying out the interior to a certain extent (I don't think there will be a tiny gimbaled stove). So far I've got somewhere in the neighborhood of 50 hours into the build and it's anybodies guess how many more more are left to go. I certainly hope that it will be less than the 5000 or so hours estimated for the full size build. I'd like to be pretty close to done by the time sailing season starts in late April or early May.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

I got the floors in for sta. 3 to 8 and something didn't look right. I put a batten on them and realized I had serious fairing issues. I turns out I introduced too many errors going from plans to lofting to station molds to floors. That's the trouble with trying to work at smaller scales I guess. Small errors have a big effect on the outcome. So I did the only sensible thing, I chucked all the molds I made into the scrap bin (that hurt), blew up the body plan on a copier to 200%, bought a two dollar sheet of 1/8 inch press board, and put a new blade in my band saw.







The results speak for themselves.





Fortunately all but one of the floors is slightly over sized and can be saved. I think maybe I should have called this thread, "How to screw up an Atkin Fore an' Aft Cutter Model".

Jim

[Alex Low]

Oh! That is one sexy shape. Looks great.

Alex

[Oyster]

wow jim,
that is way neat. will it be a working model or display only?

[ILikeRust]

I think maybe I should have called this thread, "How to screw up an Atkin Fore an' Aft Cutter Model".

It's called "prototyping." Also known as "proof of concept."

Anyhow, that's always my story.

Nothing is wasted - what has been of value is that you learned. As have all of us.

[jsjpd1]

Thanks fellas. Royce, it will be a static display, although tiller/rudder will move and the hatch should slide.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

I put a few battens on tonight. There are a few lumps but I'm going to just let the battens lie fair and not worry about it.





Here's one thing you can't do with a full sized build.



One plus is that I maybe be building two of these since I've already built twice the parts. My older daughter quickly latched on to all the cast off parts and has decided they must be put together. So I think I'll take the best three molds glue them to the cast off keel spring a few battens and go from there. It won't be the same boat but it will make my daughter happy.

Jim

[Tom Freeman]

Glad that I'm still watching while waiting for a couple of sets of drawings. Nice work.

[JoshuaIII]

Nice! Hey it's a boat!?

[StevenBauer]

Hey Jim, did you see the great pic of a Fore-an-Aft in the latest WoodenBoat's Boats For Sale section?




Steven

[jsjpd1]

Glad that I'm still watching while waiting for a couple of sets of drawings. Nice work.

Thanks Tom, did you guys end up finding lines plans or are these the drawings your father-in-law(?) are working up?

Nice! Hey it's a boat!?

I think it's a boat, at least it's starting to look like one any way.

Hey Jim, did you see the great pic of a Fore-an-Aft in the latest WoodenBoat's Boats For Sale section?




Steven

Boy have I Steven! If it was a couple thousand miles closer I would be thinking very hard about how to get it home.

By the way, do you guys know what's better than building a cutter?


Building two.




Now I can keep messing up on the first before messing up on the second one. Good plan hey?

Jim

[Willem]

Nice project.

There's a large collection of pictures of a Fore An' Aft on Flickr.:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/emccart...7603520396507/

Maybe it can be of some use to you?

Willem

[PeterSibley]

Excellent Jim, I'm very much enjoying your project !

[gordocutter]

I’m curious about the kind of build used to construct tresarus. I saw some pictures of the rebuild of the stem and it seems that it is a strip planking hull with galvanized nails running tru the strips and the frames. Judging for the time it was made(1959), I think it was with resorcinol. And with the same amount of frames for a traditional build. Just curious. Love the tread and the desing.

[jsjpd1]

Nice project.

There's a large collection of pictures of a Fore An' Aft on Flickr.:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/emccart...7603520396507/

Maybe it can be of some use to you?

Willem

Thanks for the link Willem, Tresarus looks pretty good in some of those pictures. Not bad for a 50+ year old boat fastened with galvanized nails.

Excellent Jim, I'm very much enjoying your project !

Thanks Peter.

I’m curious about the kind of build used to construct tresarus. I saw some pictures of the rebuild of the stem and it seems that it is a strip planking hull with galvanized nails running tru the strips and the frames. Judging for the time it was made(1959), I think it was with resorcinol. And with the same amount of frames for a traditional build. Just curious. Love the tread and the desing.

I bet it's strong.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

The last couple days here have been spent trying to line out the planking runs. It's been a bit of a head scratcher.

I started laying out the battens with no thought to this.



Then, after some helpful advice from folks here on the forum, started over with a little more thought and came to this.



Then looked a little closer at the diagonals for plank lines, which helped to a point and got to this.



Thought about it and moved things around again.







At this point I know I'm getting closer but I'm not sure I'm there. I'll look again tomorrow.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

Every time I walk away and come back later it results in one more tweak. This time it was the batten at the deck line and the one below it. I just moved them down a little, but it made difference to my eye anyway.





I think it's time to move on to garboards and frames.

Jim

[PeterSibley]

Yep !

[Bob Cleek]

Ah, ha! You've gotten the right technique now with your jig. What's more important, you've gotten past the point where so many throw up their hands in dispair. Take your time and don't rush it. You've tackled one of the most sophisticated of all ship modeling challenges, building a "dockyard model." So far, you have done an excellent job, certainly producing a well above average result.

Don't ignore unfair spots on your jig. When you blow up lines on a photocopier, which has a lens, you are going to get a certain amount of spherical abberation, depending on the quality of the lens. That will throw the photocopied lines just a bit out of whack, particularly as you move outward from the center of the print. You may have to correct a bit for that, depending. Being aware of it will save you a lot of head scratching.

Tip: Coat all your parts well with shellac. This will stabilize the wood and minimize shrinking and swelling over time, adding greatly to the longevity of the model. Also, shellac is a great primer for color coats. Be sure to use modeling paints, which have very finely ground pigment. This will result in a proper "scale" appearance that is very hard to get with ordinary paint otherwise.

Now you have another big decision to make: Will you plank just one side and leave the other open to show all the framing and interior detail.... or leave a band of unplanked hull on both sides to show the interior detail? Or plank the whole boat and hide all your fine framing joinerwork?

As for plank fastening... those little bamboo yakitori skewers glued in place work pretty well, or you can use appropriately sized basswood doweling, which you can get at good hobby stores (don't overlook the "dollhouse" stores... they have tons of minature lumber stock.)

You realize this may take you many months to complete, no?

[jsjpd1]

Thanks for the tip on the shellac Bob, I was wondering if I should be doing something like that. I've got an air brush kit for modeling paint that's never been used so I'm glad you mentioned those too. You always leave me with something to think about that's for sure, opened to the frames and interior or closed up. Boy, I don't know. Some pondering is definitely in order.

And at this point, yes, I've come to realize that my timeline for completion is somewhat, shall we say, optimistic.

Jim

[Tom Freeman]

Thanks Tom, did you guys end up finding lines plans or are these the drawings your father-in-law(?) are working up?

Jim

A little of both actually. We are using the drawings we made, and I also discovered that the Museum at Mystic has a set of hull drawings from the older sister of our boat. They won't be perfect, but the may be useful so I am spending some $$ and time waiting for them to arrive. The museum can't afford a lot of dedicated staff, so everything takes a while.

[jsjpd1]

I've been having fun with the garboards over the last couple evenings.

Glue up.








I've also started milling stock for the frames. My wife went away for the weekend, so I think I'll take over the kitchen for bending in the frames.

I've been thinking a bit about what I would like to see when the model is done. I think it would be cool if I left off in an almost done but not quite state. Hull finished, interior in, deck on, only cabin beams in place without the top so you could see the interior, and a tool box on deck with cotton, caulking irons and mallet. But we'll see.

Jim

[PeterSibley]

A little diorama with launch cradle, mud and a cat?

[AndyG]

It's such a sweet-looking hull. Quite beautiful!

Though if this model is going to be for static display, I may have to demand you make another one for r/c conversion.

...Or full-size. I'm easy! )

Andy

[jsjpd1]

A little diorama with launch cradle, mud and a cat?

Something like that Peter. Or I may go the whole way and finish off the rig.

It's such a sweet-looking hull. Quite beautiful!

Though if this model is going to be for static display, I may have to demand you make another one for r/c conversion.

...Or full-size. I'm easy! )

Andy

I like the RC idea Andy but wouldn't even know where to begin, and I'm not quite ready to add one more level complexity just yet. So, I guess it'll have to be a full sized one.

Jim

[Breakaway]

Really enjoying this. Thanks for posting

Kevin

[jsjpd1]

I cut something like 22 pairs of frames. I still need to cut another 15 to 20 pairs. It takes a while to rip them with the band saw and then plane them out smooth and even, so they're usable. I'm using the left over frame stock from my SOF whitehall, nice tight, straight grained yellow cedar.



Also, got another strake on to help shape and hold the frame heels better. I sort of think one more would be better yet, so I may do that tomorrow.



And worked on fitting the transom, while waiting for glue to dry elsewhere.



I think that's going to turn out aright.

Back to framing. In they go, to the fancy steam box 2000. Pasta anyone?



And bent in.



I bent in five pairs tonight, I need to bend in twenty pairs all together for planking up and jig removal and then twelve more once the jig is out.

Jim

[Oyster]

hey jim,
looking good,will the planking rivet or clench nail to the frames? hah!!!

[PeterSibley]

Jim....I wish the full sized job was so easy !

[SBrookman]

What a great project. What type of glue are you using, CA?

I hope your spring doesn't come too soon so you can get this done before it's time for real boating.

[jsjpd1]

hey jim,
looking good,will the planking rivet or clench nail to the frames? hah!!!

I'm thinking #12 Galvanized screws. That'll work, right?

Jim....I wish the full sized job was so easy !

Does this mean I won't be able to use the pasta pot?

What a great project. What type of glue are you using, CA?

I hope your spring doesn't come too soon so you can get this done before it's time for real boating.

Thanks, glue is Tight Bond 3. I think I'm safe from spring for another 45-60 days, but then I'm going sailing! Better make some progress here while I can.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

A little more progress today.









Fourteen frame pairs in, which gives something to glue the planking to besides itself.

Jim

[OnionEyes]

Awesome! I absolutely enjoy your threads.

Stay warm. It's chilly here in Sitka.

[PeterSibley]

Does this mean I won't be able to use the pasta pot?

Jim

Permission to use pasta pot granted !

It's looking great !

[jsjpd1]

Awesome! I absolutely enjoy your threads.

Stay warm. It's chilly here in Sitka.

Thanks! I saw you guys when you were anchored up here in Juneau last summer. I was hoping to bump into you and chat about your boat, but no such luck. Maybe next time.

Stay warm.
Jim

[AndyG]

Looks great!

A few questions: how long does the steaming take? Does a thin frame stick dry out very much quicker than a full-size one would? (i.e. what's the working time you have, from pot-to-stiff?) And almost finally, the planking's ends - are they simply butt-joined? Will they receive (or do they already have) backing pieces?

Many thanks for this build!

Andy

[jsjpd1]

Looks great!

A few questions: how long does the steaming take? Does a thin frame stick dry out very much quicker than a full-size one would? (i.e. what's the working time you have, from pot-to-stiff?) And almost finally, the planking's ends - are they simply butt-joined? Will they receive (or do they already have) backing pieces?

Many thanks for this build!

Andy

Hey Andy,

The frame stock seemed to want about 15 minutes in the pot before it would bend nice. I'm not sure how long I had to work them once they came out, but I think I was running a about 1 1/2 to 2 minutes from pot to clamped. They did cool very fast, but seemed to hang on to their elasticity for a bit longer. The planks are just butt jointed and will receive butt blocks when the jig comes out. It takes me about a half an hour to cut fit and hang a plank or about 2 hours to do a full plank run all the way around the boat, a butt joint looked like the most straight forward option.

Jim

[jsjpd1]

I thought I'd lay out the steps in getting out plank if anyone was interested. This is the forward plank of the fourth strake, so the first thing to do was remove the riband, which is in the way.



and clean up the glue so that the plank will lay fair.



Then I clamp a piece of plank stock in place and spile the edge of the previous plank onto it.



After that it's draw out what the rest of the plank should look like.



and head off to the band saw.



Continued.....

[jsjpd1]

Then it's check the rough fit.



Adjust.



Check again.



And repeat. When it looks good the plank is traced out on another piece of stock for the plank on the other side.



Then glued up.



After that the other side is roughed out and fitted in a similar fashion.

Jim

[J.Madison]

Wow that is looking great! You are making excellent progress and are much farther than I got when trying to build a model. I got frustrated and just went out to build full size. Keep it up and we do hope to see a full size one here soon.

[Bob Cleek]

Looking good! So, are you going to fill and fair the bottom and sand it smooth, or leave the seams showing a bit for an "ultra-realistic" finish? (I'm going to drive you nuts with decisions, but you have to make them before you get too far along.) That planking is so nice, it sorta seems like you should figure a way to show it off.

I'd suggest you peg the planking before you get too far along. Adhesives have improved greatly over the years, but don't underestimate the stresses that build up as you construct a model, even in minature. Every bit of stress you add is "stored" in the structure. If the adhesive fails, often due to humidity changes with the seasons, you can have things go "sproing!" and that can be difficult to fix. Check the USN Curator of Navy Models website for their "museum quality" standards, which are pretty much accepted across the board in the serious ship modeling community. http://www.thenrg.org/displayarticle.html?id=7
and http://www.thenrg.org/displayarticle.html?id=7

When you get to finishing, you should address the problem of your lead ballast keel. Lead will decompose in a display case and it becomes very difficult to keep a coating on it. This is most pronounced with small cast parts, but you will want to seal your lead ballast well with some sort of suitable metal primer. All you ever want to know about lead corrosion. http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/card...d/lead_01.aspx

[jsjpd1]

Wow that is looking great! You are making excellent progress and are much farther than I got when trying to build a model. I got frustrated and just went out to build full size. Keep it up and we do hope to see a full size one here soon.

Thanks Jonathan. It's nice to see that you've started planking on your model in full size.

[jsjpd1]

Looking good! So, are you going to fill and fair the bottom and sand it smooth, or leave the seams showing a bit for an "ultra-realistic" finish? (I'm going to drive you nuts with decisions, but you have to make them before you get too far along.) That planking is so nice, it sorta seems like you should figure a way to show it off.

I'd suggest you peg the planking before you get too far along. Adhesives have improved greatly over the years, but don't underestimate the stresses that build up as you construct a model, even in minature. Every bit of stress you add is "stored" in the structure. If the adhesive fails, often due to humidity changes with the seasons, you can have things go "sproing!" and that can be difficult to fix. Check the USN Curator of Navy Models website for their "museum quality" standards, which are pretty much accepted across the board in the serious ship modeling community. http://www.thenrg.org/displayarticle.html?id=7
and http://www.thenrg.org/displayarticle.html?id=7

When you get to finishing, you should address the problem of your lead ballast keel. Lead will decompose in a display case and it becomes very difficult to keep a coating on it. This is most pronounced with small cast parts, but you will want to seal your lead ballast well with some sort of suitable metal primer. All you ever want to know about lead corrosion. http://www.navsea.navy.mil/nswc/card...d/lead_01.aspx

Thanks Bob. I'm not sure on how to finish the hull yet. There will be some fairing now matter what. I think if I'm happy with the planking runs when it's finished I may just do a light fairing to let the planks show through. I've been thinking about fastenings from the point of view of fastening through the planking and into the frames, with the frames only being 1/8" square that doesn't leave a lot of meat to fasten to. I do see the merit of fastening the plank ends to the stem, horn timber(?), and transom though and I added some extra material to the transom to make a better surface for the planks to land on. So maybe fastening the plank ends and at the butts will be good enough? I would think that's where most of the stress is going to be focused. I think I'll stop by the grocery store and get a box of round tooth picks and see what they have for skewers.

I'll check out those links too.

Thanks again,
Jim

[AndyG]

Thanks for the answers earlier, Jim.

With regards to fixing planks, you can make or buy a draw plate to reduce the size of your toothpicks/treenails. The one in the link works wood or bamboo down to a scarey half a millimetre in diameter.

Andy

[JayInOz]

"I thought I'd lay out the steps in getting out plank if anyone was interested."

Thanks mate JayInOz

[jsjpd1]

Thanks for the answers earlier, Jim.

With regards to fixing planks, you can make or buy a draw plate to reduce the size of your toothpicks/treenails. The one in the link works wood or bamboo down to a scarey half a millimetre in diameter.

Andy

Thanks for the link Andy, I'm not quite sure I'm ready to go to that extreme but I'll certainly give it some thought.

"I thought I'd lay out the steps in getting out plank if anyone was interested."

Thanks mate JayInOz

No worries Jay.

I went out and got some bamboo skewers for fastening with. I'm starting to feel like a real boat builder now.





Jim