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Thread: Shanty Boats

  1. #101
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Actually, that's an option for me and the you know what.....plans are $400.00 for that boat like shanty box. I think I can figure it out...especially with some answers from you guys....LOL

  2. #102
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Whoa!.......sorry to get people riled over a name.....

    Actually I called it a "Cruising Shanty", and it was drawn in reaction to Harry Bryan's WoodenBoat #224 cover boat.

    I believe Phil Bolger wrote rather wisely about "cheap" boats.......He said something like "If you build a boat that looks cheap, it better be cheap." This is my attitude to the shanty boat controversy. In WB #225 Harry defends the $75,000 finished price of his 20' shanty boat. That's without any propulsion by the way. I am concerned that Joe B wheels his $75k shanty home only to find she will fetch $15k on the open market! Harry mentions 2000 man hours to build his shanty, no question she's a beautiful thing nicely made. But I think one could, using plywood and stitch and glue techniques, create something that looks at least vaguely like a boat (my cruising shanty) in about 1/4 the man hours. And it's something you could clamp an old outboard to and go someplace(protected waters). True it will be worth less than Harry's boat, but the investment will be far less.

    The cruising shanty's bottom is flat athwartships with rocker fore and aft. Topsides are vertical. The bulkheads and transom are sawn out and set up upside down. Bottom goes on in two layers, then lower topsides. Roll her upright and add upperworks, deck and cabintop are only curved in one direction. Flower boxes can be added, along with a satellite dish on the roof.......
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  3. #103
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    LOL, well blow me down, it's TR himself! I wanted to add one of those pole clothes lines that when not in use you can throw a tarp over it and it would look like an umbrella.

    I do admire your designs Tad, the pilothouse cutter is my favorite....even if I have have found some in steel as projects for sale, guess people don't realize the size and scope of such builds and over time, stuff happens too.

  4. #104
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    ...The cruising shanty's bottom is flat athwartships with rocker fore and aft...
    I didn't realize the bottom was rockered. In that case its already more of a real boat that some other designs that make little mention of their questionable hydrodynamics, such as the Berkley offerings that appear to be dead flat through out.


  5. #105
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Many flat bottom designs have very little rocker forward. Very nearly a straight run from stem to midships. I'd guess that to be more shantylike the straight run could continue considerably farther aft with all or most of the rocker in the last few feet. The fewer and more gradual the curves the easier the build, generally speaking. Ie:

    Last edited by JimD; 03-20-2012 at 09:51 AM.

  6. #106
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Or double ended and completely flat bottom, a poor man's Steve Redmond Elver. This would allow you to make the bottom of heavy plywood with no worries of needing to bend it. Elver's bottom is 3/4" ply, I think:



    Last edited by JimD; 03-19-2012 at 08:26 PM.

  7. #107
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    ...how about a battleship?
    Now we're talking. One of these profiles should ensure peace and quiet. You wouldn't even be bothered with those annoying plumbing inspections. And on top of that, there are any number of special anchorages up and down the coat that would become available.



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  8. #108
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Wavewacker View Post
    BB, yes, don't know what "exploring" might include, in most rivers. lakes, marshes and waterways in north america I'd opt for shallow draft, the less the better since that means you can get back in there where most boats can't or don't go to "explore".
    Having a mothership is a good idea with a smaller craft that gives you more options.....
    Well, I live in the San Juan Islands, which has vast areas of (relatively) protected inland waters, most of which is quite deep. As opposed to you, who live in Missouri, which Im guessing has rather different cruising grounds.

    Neither of us is "wrong", we just want to tailor our craft to our desired usage.
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  9. #109
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Line drawing of TR's Cruising Shanty. The rocker seems quite evenly distributed. I think you could expect quite efficient performance. Wish I had seen this view before I made a couple less than complementary assumptions.




  10. #110
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Another curtain call:


  11. #111
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    I think I like Cruising Shanty arrangement B. "A" has the advantage of a good porch, while "B" has more "interior"

    I suppose it depends on whether you'd spend time sitting on the porch or not. may the best would be to put a "Tenner Dancefloor" hinged rear deck. Keep it up when you'd be charged by length, drop it down for calm anchorages...

  12. #112
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    A sharp entry like the Atkin or Elver above does not need any rocker forward (IMO). A very blunt bow, as the cruising shanty, will be better with some rocker. Think of the bow as a wedge being forced through the water, smaller (shallower) and finer is easier (less resistance). As the boat passes the water just wants to return to it's starting level, thus the gentle rise of bottom aft with little transom immersed and dragging up a stern wave. I believe the maximum waterplane (blunt ends) is a requirement for a small boat that folks will spend time aboard. The waterplane area and displacement are key to decent stability and reduction of motion with every passing ripple. I see people trying to live aboard small boats (like a Catalina 27) and they are exhausted by the constant motion more than anything.

    With her small waterplane, large deck, and high sides the Elver in particular is a very tiddly boat, not conducive to relaxation IMO. But she will slip along at low speed with almost no effort.
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  13. #113
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    With her small waterplane, large deck, and high sides the Elver in particular is a very tiddly boat, not conducive to relaxation IMO. But she will slip along at low speed with almost no effort.
    I certainly wouldn't want an Elver for a cruising shanty. I meant only to point out the possibility of a vessel much like your design only double ended, with a wide bottom and straight vertical sides. Of course the only value in doing so would be to permit a perfectly flat bottom. That might have some convenience but the disadvantages could outweigh.
    Last edited by JimD; 03-20-2012 at 01:00 PM.

  14. #114
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by essaunders View Post
    I think I like Cruising Shanty arrangement B. "A" has the advantage of a good porch, while "B" has more "interior"

    I suppose it depends on whether you'd spend time sitting on the porch or not. may the best would be to put a "Tenner Dancefloor" hinged rear deck. Keep it up when you'd be charged by length, drop it down for calm anchorages...
    I prefer A. Its nice to feel like you're stepping out of inside of a boat.

  15. #115
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    So, if the 20' shanty boat appeals, but the waters she will be used in are protected coastal, what do you go for?

    Brian

  16. #116
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    So, if the 20' shanty boat appeals, but the waters she will be used in are protected coastal, what do you go for?

    Brian
    Maybe just go with TRs design. I wonder if you could build a hull with a little more shape to the bottom, such as a double chine without ecouraging too much unwanted motion when not underway? Add some ballast?
    Last edited by JimD; 03-21-2012 at 11:52 AM.

  17. #117
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    For protected coastal waters, I'd be thinking of a scow hull. Plenty capable and will take a Shanty superstructure.

  18. #118
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    For protected coastal waters, I'd be thinking of a scow hull. Plenty capable and will take a Shanty superstructure.
    Something like this from Mertens, perhaps. But the more you need a real boat the less you can call it a shanty


  19. #119
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Perhaps keep all the upper top side design as plan B and add V to the bottom and ballast to take up that added volume. Similar to the 16' Pocket Cruiser.


  20. #120
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    A motor cruiser! I like it. Who needs a shanty, anyway? How about modest vee forward but otherwise no deadrise elsewhere?
    Last edited by JimD; 03-22-2012 at 09:14 AM.

  21. #121
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Shanty boats have always interested me, as I live along the banks of the Ohio river - one of the great shanty boat rivers. As a matter of fact, Harlan Hubbard's shanty boat was constructed only a couple of miles from where I grew up, and at about the time that I was a kid. A lot of the people he mentions in his book, and a lot of the places he frequented, were known to me. (Of course my mother was always warning me to stay away from the sort of folks who lived on shanty boats, as well as those who lived in the "hobo camps" along the C&O right of way 2 blocks from our house.)

    I looked at the shantyboatliving web site, and watched the video of the Atkin's Retreat shanty boat. I was impressed at how well it moved under power! The TR 20' shanty boat, the one that looks like an old raised-deck cruiser, seems like a really practical boat for such waters. The curved hull and pointed bow could only help while underway. And it succeeds, I think, at looking like a "real" boat and not like a garden shed on a raft. Sort of a "stealth" shanty, so to speak. As long as you understood its limitations, and were not seduced by its "boaty" looks into taking it out in conditions that one would navigate in with, say, a Sea-Ray or other fiberglass misbegotten issue of a union between a space shuttle and a log splitting wedge, one would do just fine.

  22. #122
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    A motor cruiser! I like it. Who needs a shanty, anyway? How about modest vee forward but otherwise no deadrise elsewhere?
    JimD, that 16' pocket cruiser looks sort of like a slightly larger version of one of the incarnations of your Minuet!

  23. #123
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    I, too, would be tempted to stay with TR's design. If you need more boat than that then a shanty isn't appropriate. Get a real boat with the biggest possible cabin.

  24. #124
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by tpelle View Post
    JimD, that 16' pocket cruiser looks sort of like a slightly larger version of one of the incarnations of your Minuet!
    yes, a bit. And I may redo the Minuet again next year. Currently it has no cabin at all. I opened it up and now its quite an admirable daysailer for four. The shortcoming of the Minuet as a motor cruiser is that it has a proper sailboat hull and lacks primary stability due to the amount of deadrise, flair to the sides, and accompanying relatively narrow waterline beam. Stiff under sail but prone to rolling when not.

  25. #125
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Also, once you get into the realm of roomy simple boats there are options, such as Peter's beautiful version of Bolger's Champlain




  26. #126
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    But getting back to the Shanty theme, I'd only be interested in a very inexpensive build, meaning construction 2x4s for framing and exterior ply for the planking. PL glued and screwed, glass sheathed below the water line and maybe just painted above. Inexpensive house construction so far as possible. Something like that.
    Last edited by JimD; 03-22-2012 at 10:54 AM.

  27. #127
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    I think we are getting into the difference between a houseboat and a shanty. To me it seems that a shanty boat is something that is intended to be mostly stationary, be it on a mooring or at a dock. But not making passages on a regular basis. As opposed to a houseboat which would be intended for cruising about with a greater consideration for interior space than other factors.

    For my local waters, I don't think I'd want to go with construction grade materials. Being a protected sea, we still get some stout weather that passes through. Windage would be a concern...


    BTW, Turtle Bay is a Windemere, not a Champlain. I think the Windemere is mostly just a longer version of the same idea.
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  28. #128
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by BBSebens View Post
    I think we are getting into the difference between a houseboat and a shanty. To me it seems that a shanty boat is something that is intended to be mostly stationary, be it on a mooring or at a dock. But not making passages on a regular basis. As opposed to a houseboat which would be intended for cruising about with a greater consideration for interior space than other factors.

    For my local waters, I don't think I'd want to go with construction grade materials. Being a protected sea, we still get some stout weather that passes through. Windage would be a concern...


    BTW, Turtle Bay is a Windemere, not a Champlain. I think the Windemere is mostly just a longer version of the same idea.
    You missed an 'r' in Windermere, Ben


  29. #129
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    A pontoon boat is another consideration. Make the pontoons from quality materials. Make the cabin ... by other means:


  30. #130
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    Smile Re: Shanty Boats

    Yes, as BB mentions above, there is a difference between a shanty (intended for static use) and a houseboat or cruiser (intended to go places). The first step away from a simple square ended barge is a pram as suggested by Jim. Below is a minimum cruising pram for a small family. The kids have a bunk room forward and their own hatch to tend anchor. Galley and controls midships P&S, then seats each side with a drop table which forms a huge double for mom and dad, with sliding doors P&S. Aft is "wet" space with the porta-pottie and fuel, etc, with motor access....... The bottom is mostly dead flat turning veed in the forward third of the hull. Some form of appendage is necessary to keep her from just going sideways as you turn the wheel. This power scow could actually cover some ground in protected water and deal with light summer chop with 10HP or so.



    Below is a true barge, not really intended for anything other than rare movement, but the bottom rocker means she will push or tow fairly easily. Surely this would qualify as a "real" shanty.........

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  31. #131
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    TR, I think you just about hit one out of the ballpark with your 20' Cruising Shanty. The only improvement that I can think of might be to slightly lengthen the pilot house area to permit a rear bulkhead, and the ability to have a little seating and social area seperate from the sleeping area. with a canvas and screen-enclosed "back porch" - wow!

  32. #132
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Boats of this genre designed to go places bring to mind the canal boats of Europe. They're more than shanty boats, but not quite houseboats. Low powered and comfortable.






  33. #133
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Paul Fisher has a couple canal boats, under 7' beam for narrow canals:


  34. #134
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    And who could forget the astonishing Glen-L Gypsy. Someone put a 120 hp on the back of one of these:




  35. #135
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    I like your stuff Tad. Looks really good.

    The problem with canal boats is... they're for canals. I wonder how they would handle larger water? Whats the underwater profile look like? Seems kinda roll-y.
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  36. #136
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    But that's the whole point of this discussion - minimal boats for still waters. You give up some "real boat" characteristics in exchange for maximum livability and low cost.

  37. #137
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    FWIW, an upcoming talk on Canal Boats at the Camden (Maine) Public Library. Time to be determined.

    Tuesday, April 17 – Roger Taylor returns to Camden to present an illustrated talk on “The Canals of Europe.” Roger is the founder and former publisher of International Marine Books in Rockport and is a well known in the yachting world for his writing. For the past ten years he has lived on a small boat which he has turned into a travelling museum ship on the life and history of canal boating in Europe. “There’s an intricate system of waterways in Europe that has allowed commercial traffic on canals not only to remain in business but to grow,” he says. “It’s not just history, you can deliver goods by water cheaply throughout Europe. It’s a big, growing industry.”
    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


  38. #138
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by TR View Post
    Yes, as BB mentions above, there is a difference between a shanty (intended for static use) and a houseboat or cruiser (intended to go places). The first step away from a simple square ended barge is a pram as suggested by Jim. Below is a minimum cruising pram for a small family. The kids have a bunk room forward and their own hatch to tend anchor. Galley and controls midships P&S, then seats each side with a drop table which forms a huge double for mom and dad, with sliding doors P&S. Aft is "wet" space with the porta-pottie and fuel, etc, with motor access....... The bottom is mostly dead flat turning veed in the forward third of the hull. Some form of appendage is necessary to keep her from just going sideways as you turn the wheel. This power scow could actually cover some ground in protected water and deal with light summer chop with 10HP or so.



    Below is a true barge, not really intended for anything other than rare movement, but the bottom rocker means she will push or tow fairly easily. Surely this would qualify as a "real" shanty.........

    Now the one at the top works and is pretty much what I had in mind, but would need that extra 8' up front for my cargo and open that bow with a ramp as the landing craft....!

  39. #139
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    But that's the whole point of this discussion - minimal boats for still waters. You give up some "real boat" characteristics in exchange for maximum livability and low cost.
    100% agree. Thing is, those of us who want our floating platforms to be able to go some place have waited patiently for the true shanty crowd to have their say and now we have hijacked the thread. AHHRRR.

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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    LOL! Don't ya think that would work for the rivers...even the great loop? Might take awhile to do....

    I would like more standing headroom, but probably won't get it......I do wish we had the canal boats here as they seem to be great liveaboards.

    Ok, hyjack away.....

  41. #141
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Read the book that inspired Harry's shanty boat. He mentions it in the article. It will move, all you need is a little current and some really long oars.
    Oldad

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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    You can rent a European style (and built, I believe) canal boat on the Erie Canal. There are several companies that offer them. Great way to see how it suits you. It's on the sort list for the missus and me.

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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Narrowboats are great fun, and you could certainly live aboard if you had a mind to. But handling one longer than about twenty-five feet is like trying to steer a row of shopping trolleys.

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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    I vaguely remember a story where a live aboard couple needed a 'shed' to do some work on their yacht. They bought a big metal barge with a permanent mooring and moved a second hand building on board as a a shop. Before long she had moved onto the barge and I do not know the ultimate outcome.

  45. #145
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    "Now and then we had a hope that if we lived and were good, God would permit us to be pirates." ~ Mark Twain


  46. #146
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Something like this from Mertens, perhaps. But the more you need a real boat the less you can call it a shanty

    Bb
    Be careful if you are considering this plan. There have been multiple reports that the design trims down by the bow due poor weight distribution.
    Oldad

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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    The problem I alway had with Harry Brian's "shanty boat" is that there is no connection between $75,000 and the term shanty. They just don't go together in the same sentence. Harry's boat is beautifull and beautifully done but it ain't no shanty and would get a laugh from anyone who ever lived or relaxed on a real shanty boat. Can't see anyone stepping out of an old battered jon boat with muddy boots and a string of slimy fish into that neat little castle. Tad's offerings have as much panache with a ton more practicality although they ain't shantys either..

    Fot those that want to see a real "shanty boat", I offer the following.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v...VP0zU&vq=large
    Tom L

  48. #148
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Tom's vid is a bit closer to the shack on a log raft that I lived on in a slough of the Willamette. But despite the remorseless straight line practicality of Atkins and others who evolved shacks on rafts into micro-barges with a bed, I see nothing wrong with exercising a bit of artistry, put some beautiful curves in and like that. There is something to be said for a person to be his or her own designer-builder and thus not hitting anything like the $75,000, so very much of which was the master craftsman's just reward. Perhaps just as the micro-barge-with-bed is a good step from shack on a raft, so also the really refined "shanty boat" is, like a classic folly, an exercise in romantic imagination and whether one makes it personally or hires the job means little compared to the creation of a jewel from which one can watch the tide ebb and flood.

  49. #149
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldad View Post
    Bb
    Be careful if you are considering this plan. There have been multiple reports that the design trims down by the bow due poor weight distribution.
    Oldad
    I seem to recall hearing that before. Perhaps the problems stem from this being a planing hull
    The planing hull bottom and the wide and strong transom allows her to take fairly large engines but she will be very happy to move at displacement speed with a 25 HP.
    Probably trims better with twin 100s on the transom.

  50. #150
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    Default Re: Shanty Boats

    The problem stems from the cabin being located far ahead of the lateral center of bouyancy and yes, a couple of 100s (4 strokes) on the transom would help a lot
    Oldad

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