What is your latest primer of choice? Below waterline...

[Larks]

Paints seem to have changed and evolved so much over the last few years that I'm wondering what everyone is now using for priming below the water line, specifically under their antifouling.

I know from searching through old threads here that a lot of people here don't bother priming under their antifoul, but I'm not going down that path.

Creosote is another option that has been suggested but it is no longer available (or legal to sell) in Australia.

International/Interlux Primocon has been the go to primer around here for timber, fibreglass, steel and aluminium hulls and is what I have been planning to use.

But before I go spending my rare (and getting rarer) $$$, does anyone have any better suggestions or recommendations for priming over bare wood under antifouling?

[The Bigfella]

I've had no problems with Primocon. I also use it as a seam compound... mixed with putty.

[The Bigfella]

Speaking of which.... its a bugger of a thing to mix up. I did start this process with gloves, but they weren't up to the task

[Larks]

but it looks like you've had fun.

[Larks]

Another question:

Single tin or two part epoxy primer? What is your preference?

[wizbang 13]

I have never used primocon, so I cannot speak to it.
But, I am abig fan of Interlux 404/414 , as mentioned many times before.
It is about the only undercoater I use anymore, below water, topsides and I even paint my decks with it. It turns a tiny bit yellow after years in the tropical sun, chalks up very little.And, is easy to grind away, does not gum up. I paint the inside of my 2 hard dingys with it, adding a tiny bit of regular paint for tinting. (brown for my manly boat, a lil blue for hers).
But on bare wood, I would just roll/ paint the first coat of epoxy resin, with the slowest hardener available. Then , after sanding/ fairing, start building the "paint" (coating) of 404/414. Worm barrier is the main reason, but also to plain ol stabilize the planking ,and, the bottom can be smoothed out better.
Even my funky gaffer likes a fast bottom.

[RFNK]

It's a hard question to answer - how can you really know if the one you've used is better than the others? I used a Jotun primer on Pipsqueak about 5 years ago and it doesn't seem to have fallen off. I don't know how the price of Jotun primer compares to the International stuff.
Rick

[Larks]

Wiz, I'd seen that you use the 404/414 when searching other threads, Interlux is International here in Oz but I've not yet been able to find the equivalent of 404/414 - a few confusing Goggle searches come up with it as a metal primer. I take it that it is a two part epoxy system??


Rick, I got some conflicting advice from Jotun, their web site shows a Jotun Vinyl primer to be the product suitable for the use that I want it for, but the local sales rep' couldn't find it on their price list and suggested Jotun all purpose primer overcoated with Jotun Vineguard 88 and then the antifoul. However I can't find any details of the Jotun AP primer on the web to check its suitability other than one that specifies not for permanent immersion. So a little confusing. I have 20 litres of Jotun antifoul that was given to me so I had first thought to use a Jotun primer.

The price of 4 litres of each of the Jotun primers is $64.00 each plus GST, or 128.00 for 8 litres of paint

The International Primocon is about $150.00 for 4 litres

Norglass Shipshape primer a 2 part primer - $194.15 (incl) for 4 litres

Bote-cote 2 pack epoxy primer - 6 litres is $131.00 (incl)



So as an immediate protection for the hull, the Jotun GP wood primer seems like the cheapest option, leaving the Vineguard and antifoul until I'm ready to get her wet (in a few years perhaps?) but whether it really is suitable and whether it will provide the moisture barrier that I'm after to stabilise the timber now is still in question.

Otherwise, the Bote-cote 2 part epoxy seems like the best option for a moisture sealant and at a reasonable price. But I'm just not sure which is the best way to go. Stick with the tried and known International Primocon or go with another more budget friendly that may be as good or better or a whole lote worse....???? I don't know enough about them.

[RFNK]

I just looked at the Jotun website but none of the new products look familiar. I do remember they were a helpful bunch when I had some questions back then so why not give their head office a call and see what they recommend? I wasn't happy with their antifoul when I tried it but the primer seems fine. It was a silvery grey colour, very thick.

There's a boatbuilding business near here that used to use Jotun products. I'll ask them for a recommendation for you, although most of their stuff is sheathed strip planking. I'll see what they say anyway.
Rick

[mariner2k]

A friend of mine has used a linseed oil mixture and swears by it. He said the paint holds and when it is time to strip, it comes off easily. Also it is good for the wood. This is definitely old school. I haven't tried this yet.

[wizbang 13]

yummy , linseed oil, said the toredo.
yes , the 404/414 , crap, do i even have the stinking numbers right? lotta help, anyway, it is a 2 part,white coating.
I think it has had several "names" over the years.

[BrianM]

Coal tar epoxy made an excellent base for bottom paint both on the wood, and especially on the cast iron. No flaking after 3 years between haulouts. That's pretty darn good "glue" which is what a primer is supposed to be.

[SchoonerRat]

No votes for red lead?

If you can get your hands on some.

[James McMullen]

We use red lead by the gallon where appropriate. But my high tech go-to primer for superior adhesion and working qualities for the fine work is the System 3 waterborne emulsion epoxy yacht primer. It sprays or rolls great, sands out excellently, and works as a tie-coat for all sorts of different top coats over just about any surface. That's the yacht-grade stuff. You can use regular red lead for below the waterline on old workboat repairs though.

[SchoonerRat]

I haven't had a woodie in my care for decades so I haven't tried any new high tech coatings. I'm willing to change with the times. This trad guy embraces epoxy and cold molding. I've also heard some real good things about the new water based non-metallic bottom paints. This might not be my next bottom job, but it's worked for me before.

One coat red lead over bare wood.
Two coats blue copper anti-foul over red lead.
Scrub regularly with carpet scrap while in the water.
If you can see red you should'a hauled last season.

[Bob Cleek]

CPES or the equivalent seems to work well and gives an added bit of mechanical borer resistance, since the surface of the wood is impregnated with epoxy. Antifouling coatings stick well to it.

[Ian McColgin]

I'm with Bob on the CPES. For bottom paint I have moved to an E-Paint and am very happy. They make a bunch of different versions for different surfaces and different types of boat so you might check the web page and maybe even have a chat with them. I had thought I'd try the waterbased but after a chat about how I use Marmalade and the waters we sail, they got me to go with one of their other formulations.

Everything I know sticks nicely over CPES sealed and then sanded wood.

[JimConlin]

Interlux 404/414 is a fairly highly thinned epoxy primer with some white pigment. It penetrates well.
Interprotect is a more heavily filled epoxy primer. I've used it successfully on below-waterline glass sheathing.
I have not used either on wood parts below waterline and offer no opinion.
The prescribed solvents are expensive and stinky. I've been meaning to try MEK.

[Larks]

We use red lead by the gallon where appropriate. But my high tech go-to primer for superior adhesion and working qualities for the fine work is the System 3 waterborne emulsion epoxy yacht primer. It sprays or rolls great, sands out excellently, and works as a tie-coat for all sorts of different top coats over just about any surface. That's the yacht-grade stuff. You can use regular red lead for below the waterline on old workboat repairs though.

This looks very interesting, a 2 part waterborne epoxy primer.....?? I'm going to look into this some more, I'll be interested to see how it compares price wise here;

http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/...Primer-c19.htm

[P.L.Lenihan]

Hi Greg,

I do not know if this is available in your part of the world but I have had excellent results with this product:

http://www.benjaminmoore.com/en-us/f...tal-primer-p33

It sticks/bonds/adheres to anything! and builds up nicely. I ran a number of wood tests panels, while I had my bowshed, which saw the panels exposed to sub-zero temps and heat(30+ C), submersion, freezing and drying over the course of 6 years and the darned stuff not only held up perfectly but actually protected the surface better than the untreated side(imagine that )...the oil based painted side actually.

The 2 gallon kit retails around $120.00CAN.

The best part; it reeks just like Interlux Interprotect but for a fraction of the price!



Cheers!

Peter

[Larks]

I've not heard of it here Peter but I might ask a few suppliers. I would never have considered using a metal primer for a wood primer? What made you think to test it on timber?

[P.L.Lenihan]

I would never have considered using a metal primer for a wood primer? What made you think to test it on timber?

It was either a total fit of insanity,fueled by beer,empty wallets and driven by low neural output.....or......the trusted testimonials of several buddies who have been using it on wooden boats for some years. I can't recall which



Cheers!


Peter

[Larks]

It was either a total fit of insanity,fueled by beer,empty wallets and driven by low neural output.....or......the trusted testimonials of several buddies who have been using it on wooden boats for some years. I can't recall which



Cheers!


Peter

funny, they were pretty much the same two options that I came up with, I just wondered which...

[PeterSibley]

Greg , keep us posted as to what you decide to use .

[Jon Agne]

A friend of mine has been using Ben Moore Super Spec DTM for years now and loves it. He's on Cape Cod, and his boat stays in the water for 2 or 3 years at a time. He swears by its durability.

[Larks]

Greg , keep us posted as to what you decide to use .

Will do Peter.

[RFNK]

I'm going to strip Pipsqueak's topsides back to bare timber, saturate the surface with epoxy then use a two-pack epoxy finish. But I wouldn't use a two-pack below the waterline. I think with the instability of the timber in your boat Greg, it would be a mistake to use such an inflexible product below the waterline. Primer's not much of an issue anyway. I'd be more concerned about finding an antifoul that actually works.
Rick

[LapenkoAl]

We use 2-3 layers of wood antiseptic, then the Interprotect by Internatoinal (3 layers). The Interprotect is a 2 two-part epoxy primer. It has a good adhesion with wood. But now I think, that it is worse than Primocon, because Primocon is more flexible than epoxy-coat and it beter for wood.

[Larks]

Greg , keep us posted as to what you decide to use .

For anyone interested, I'm going with the Jotun system specified for below water line:

2 coats Jotun All Purpose wood primer @ $60.31 per 4 litres
1 coat Jotun Vinyguard @$64.96 per 4 litres
Antifoul

As well as being cost effective I have had further good feedback similar to Ricks, above, from other local builders. For now I'll only apply the All purpose wood primer coats to seal the timber and when I get close to launch (in however many years that may be) I'll need to abrade the primer and then apply the vinyguard and antifoul.

Internally I'm using red lead in the bilge and basic domestic enamel primer throughout the rest of the hull.

[Larks]

Bugger!! Having gone to the trouble of comparing paints and prices and deciding on using the Jotun system, there is currently no Jotun All Purpose primer available in Australia. Pricks!!

[Bernadette]

can i ask why people are using an epoxy primer?
to what advantage is this?

i just paint on wood primer x 2 coats followed by antifoul.works for me. no problems.

i did use internatinal paints in the past but now im going for jotun wood primer and or norglass paints. ive been using their undercoat and modified enamal. both good products.

[RFNK]

Greg, a local boatbuilder uses and sells Jotun paint. Let me ask him what they have. I can't believe you can't get Jotun primer here. Who told you that?

Rick

[Larks]

The original paint system specification that I was given is as above, 2 coats all purpose primer then a coat of Vinyguard down the track prior to the antifoul, based on my advice to the Jotun rep' that my aim right now is to just get the hull sealed.

However with the AP primer not available the rep' has advised that I can just go straight to the vinyguard, one coat of thinned followed by a second coat, however before I antifoul I will need to rekey the vinyguard and apply a third coat prior to the antifoul, so that the antifoul goes on within the chemical window (16 hours I think).

This will work out at much the same cost with only the extra sanding being an additional requirement.

I want to stick with an advised paint system on here so that the antifoul is warranted.

[Bernadette]

can anyone answer my question i posed above: why are people using epoxy primer? and to what advantage is this etc etc? im still keen to know....
ta.
bern

[RFNK]

I don't know anything about epoxy primer - I guess that doesn't help much!

Rick

[Larks]

I didn't quite understand what you were referring to Bern', I don't think anyone was talking about using epoxy primer under antifoul

[rufustr]

Read back a bit Greg.

A few mentions of Epoxy primer there.

Post 18, 27, 28.

[Larks]

Read back a bit Greg.

A few mentions of Epoxy primer there.

Post 18, 27, 28.

I did see those but the Interlux 404/414 that Jim commented on in #18, I assume in reference to earlier posts on it, is actually spec'd as an above waterline primer. I didn't follow it up because I couldn't find an equivalent International Paints name/product, but Wiz' seems pretty keen on it so if he's still around hopefully he'll comment on it further.

in #27 I took it that Rick was referring to priming his topsides when he mentioned the epoxy and I sort of read between the lines that Paul G was suggesting using a 2 pack epoxy primer if Rick was using a 2 pack epoxy top coat above the waterline as well.

But I may have read it wrongly.

[RFNK]

I don't know anything about epoxy primer but I do know that a lot of Americans are keen on CPES as it's supposed to penetrate the timber surfaces and seal the timber etc., and it's obviously compatible with epoxy paints (and poly two-pack etc.). I don't think we have CPES in Oz but we do have Everdure which I think is about the same. A boatbuilding friend of mine declares that he tested Everdure and found that it doesn't really penetrate or seal well. He reckons that the solvent in Everdure evaporates out, so the remaining epoxy is porous. He reckoned that heating epoxy resin achieves better penetration and sealing. He also believes that TPRD (or something like that - my memory doesn't work anymore) achieved better penetration than Everdure when mixed into resin. That's about all I know about that stuff - maybe it'll help!

I'll try to call in at another local boatbuilder's next weekend and follow up the Jotun supply issue.

Rick

[rufustr]

I havn't thought about this subject before Greg, but I find it interesting here because of the complicated composite nature of your hull.

I do know that I'd be looking for something that will stick like the proverbial to your hull, be flexible enough to allow some movement, and be compatible with the antifoul or whatever you paint over the top.

The idea of the primer sealer being bright red to contrast with the finishing coats is a great idea.

[Bernadette]

oh its ok, i may have misunderstood things myself. i just thought people were using an epoxy primer under their antifoul. and well, i couldnt understand the sense in that. hence my question.
we have used copper napthenate in the past to drench the outsideof the hull prior to priming etc. dont do that anymore now though.
i just go straight on with 2 coats of primer, then antifoul.

[wizbang 13]

I use the 404/414 under the anti foul, when I haul the boat for long spells in the caribbean, I try to remove most of the anti foul so that the hull is light in color.
But a worm barrier is a main reason

[wizbang 13]

right now , fer instance, the boat is only going to be inj the water for 3 months, 2 months gone by, so I did not even anti foul her. when time comes to sail back to antigua, 300 miles, i will run a drywall knife over the 404/414 , underwater, to clean her.
i am on weak wifi in an anchorage, thus, short posts

[wizbang 13]

bern, you saying regular alkyd undercoat holds up underwater? i used to use red lead, orange paint, but the epoxy is stronger. i would not think regular primer would stay strong?

[wizbang 13]

404 /414 is quite thick in the can. It calls for 30 percent thinning, but I sometimes use it un thinned. 2333N is the thinner, expensive and stinky

[seo]

Years ago I met the then-president of Pettit paint at a trade show. I upbraided him a bit for not making red lead anymore, and he said that their "Rustloc" primer was a better wood primer than red lead. So I tried it. It is, without the hassles of using the "evil" lead paint.
There are several ways in which it isn't as good as the good ole red lead:
1) more expensive
2) Get it on your hands, and you've got Silverhands. For weeks...
3) Open the can and it kicks. Within 48 hours. In comparison,red lead is very easy to keep a can around the shop, with an inch of water on top of the paint, for the odd priming job.

Rustlock looks and acts like Interlux "Silver Primacon," but I've always preferred Pettit stuff. No particular reason...