Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

[Dr.Spoke]

Hi Phil,
Here's a link to a sawmill in the south of Sweden. They seem to do good business, but I have had no contact with them personally. We'll see if anyone else here has talked with them.

http://www.nyhamnssag.se/nyhamn/

Thanks Joel, I'll be in touch with them tommorrow. Good talking to you, and I'll see if I'm in stockholm and can swing by the boat in the coming weeks.

PhilMac

[Dr.Spoke]

Well nearly finished with fitting the ribs and frames....


A look forward to the empty space to be filled

And a picture of my next problem...

There are two stringers taht rum from the stern post to the transom alongside the keel-plank ( no, not the right term - but you get what I mean) that are rotten at the end. Could a get away with scarfing in new ends? 8-1 scarf with epoxy?

[skaraborgcraft]

I have heard it said that anything over 2in wide has a risk of too much expansion and may blow an epoxy joint. I dont know how big those stringers are,looking pretty chunky, but see no reason why you couldnt scarph a new peice in....just not sure if epoxy is the right stickum. Are they wide enough to take some drift rods? Looks as though its fastened through that ,what looks like, as stern knee too.Are they supporting a long counter stern?
Thats a nice project. Will keep watch. I will be sure to give you a shout if im coming to Stockholm over the summer,be nice to take a look.

[Dr.Spoke]

I have heard it said that anything over 2in wide has a risk of too much expansion and may blow an epoxy joint. I dont know how big those stringers are,looking pretty chunky, but see no reason why you couldnt scarph a new peice in....just not sure if epoxy is the right stickum. Are they wide enough to take some drift rods? Looks as though its fastened through that ,what looks like, as stern knee too.Are they supporting a long counter stern?
Thats a nice project. Will keep watch. I will be sure to give you a shout if im coming to Stockholm over the summer,be nice to take a look.

Got it in one! They are supporting the counter... The big bit in the middle is the stern-post - cut to allow the old self-draining cockpit to sit at th eaft end.
They are not so big... Haven't measured, but about 30-33mm thick. The damage has occured around the iron fastenings of the frame to them. That frame had a steel "floor" attatched each side of this, with a tang running under it. I could fasten a wooden "half-floor" behind the frame and tie the two sides together with rod... Thus removing the steel-wood sandwich at this point.... What do we recon?

[Dr.Spoke]

Well things are moving on - but perhaps a little slowly! Some small obstacles got in the way... Other work, illness, divorce... But back on track now!
The 20 pairs of ribs and frames became 40 and are now fitted! Big celebration beer for that lot!
Now woodwork has started. The first step is to replace all the butt-joints in the planking to be saved with scarfed " hide-a-butt" - the reason is dubious quality of wood at the butts, but good elsewhere; and I suspect ( but please correct me if I'm wrong) that an epoxy glued "hide-a-butt" will be stronger and stiffer.
To speed up this process I'm developing a "scarfer" that can be used in situ on the boat....
MkI


This should save me time, and be much more "repeatable" but I need a longer bit for my router - that'll arrive on tuesday

Then to select a good bit of oak for the keel, stem and knee.... This should make a good knee...


The keel and stem pieces where rough-cut to size by the mill. This piece I'll carve with a chain-saw.

[chainyank]

Hi Phil,
Did you end up finding a good sawmill to help you out? Good to see more progress! I like your scarfing rig, I have planed to make one similar for scarfing fresh wood into the cockpit combing on my boat.

[Dr.Spoke]

In the end the guy in Märsta came through with the oak - but never again... Unless I really need him for mahogany.
The scarfing jig is definately Mk.I... But it shows promise. I'd like to set it up with just one threaded rod - with a handle - and guide pins. The problem is finding a router-bit that is long enough. Nothing in the normal ranges is deeper than about 23-25mm, so I have ordered one that is 93mm overall and 46mm cutting edge. It also has a bearing above the tool which will help guide along the jig.
When do you need yours? If I'm finished with mine you can take it... Or should I weld one up for you?

[trango]

Looks good!

Congratulations for the publication of your project in "Klassiska båtar" [classic boats]!

/Fredrik

[Dr.Spoke]

Thanks Frederik,
We've been getting some good write ups in the local paper as well, and radio.... People seem to be fascinated by whar we're doing... Or perhaps it's just that morbid fascination of staring at RTA's ;-)
The "hide-a-butts" have gone in well on the port side... And so the planking repairs start!

[2MeterTroll]

Dont coat the stainless with Epoxy. in order for stainless to retain its integrity it needs to breath. the electrolysis can be controlled with a little tool fishermen use called a black box. basically it allows you to tune the voltage of the boat. nice thing to have when the zinks are going in 6 months. lovely project; mind i dont like the boat but the project is nice.

[Dr.Spoke]

Thanks 2MeterTroll, I'd already got past the stainless worries. I may look into the "black-box" idea if we have issues - but I doubt it... Sorry the boat is not to your tastes ;-) I'll try better next time!

Working away on the planking....
This plank was fun to get in....


But it finally fitted well....


Just LOADS more to do now!

PhilMac

[2MeterTroll]

no biggie I just dont really like the overhang stuff. those boats are pretty and sail sweetly. They are just not to my taste.
no reason to "do better" I am happy with folks that just do! so you got my vote already

[Dr.Spoke]

Well the transom needed to go... Too rotten in all the wood... But we got a chance for a good picture! And I got to play with my chainsaw again...

[lagspiller]

Great project. Just went back throught the entire thread - from first photo to last.
Admit I had some doubts when you first posted the thread. No longer.
Excellent job!

[floatingkiwi]

Can you provide more detail about this transom removal business? Some pics of the area and a description of what and why?
That shot shows the interior of the vessel. Where were the chainsaw cuts made and what condition is the surrounding structure? Nosey bugger eh mate? Tell me to hit it if ya don't want to bother.

[Dr.Spoke]

Can you provide more detail about this transom removal business? Some pics of the area and a description of what and why?
That shot shows the interior of the vessel. Where were the chainsaw cuts made and what condition is the surrounding structure? Nosey bugger eh mate? Tell me to hit it if ya don't want to bother.

I can do that during the week sometime, or you can click on my blog... At the bottom here in blue!... Which saves me doing the job twice... Not that I'm a Lazy Ba****d or anything... Just a wee bit busy Trying to get the boat ready for splashing next month....
The chainsaw was for carving the knee from a bit of tree that had been seasoning for a decade or so.

Thanks Lagspiller, I still have my doubts.... Two or three times a day!

[Ryden]

Amazing Phil!
How many boats are you working on at the moment? One on Gotland and one in Stockholm at least and IIRC you have one of the Vingen series by Ljungström. I'm feeling burned out just thinking about it.
Where on the island is she sitting, I'm over there frequently down by När and love to stop by and see her IRL.
Cheers!
/Anders

[Dr.Spoke]

Hi Anders,
Yeah! Life is a bit full at the moment!
Iris is priority - we're in Vall ( 12km south on the 142 - ring me if you're coming 073 6495401)
The Ljungström goes in the shed after Iris - to prepare for sale - need to make space for the 16m ketch that'll come to Gotland when I get time.
After her (while I'm working on my ketch in my "spare time") we've got an 8m Pettersson to restore.
Plus a few other smaller jobs - some planking on a koster, a 2 manning that needs a new keel and garboards, and a re-finish on an eka....
Looks like I'm busy for the rest of the year!

PhilMac

[Ryden]

Cheezes!
o_O

I don't suppose telling you to slow down and smell the roses would do any good...
Well, you don't have to worry about getting burnout syndrom.
When you hit the wall you'll just pass straight through in a cloud of mortar dust with an adze in your hand hollering for more caulking.

I have to replace a couple of strakes on my tvåmänning but I figure they'll hold for a couple of years, I've got a good bucket...

I'll sure give you a call when I'm on the island, Vall isn't so far away. Heck nothing is far away on Gotland. Except to the natives, they need provisions if they are going more than 10 miles

[RFNK]

It seems to me that the whole of Gotland is very far away!

Great progress!

Rick

[Ryden]

I feel that way too sometimes, but then I get a hug and life gets better.

But srsly, the island is less than a hundred miles long and the people think that you can't go from one end to the other without a sleepover in the middle.
I spoke to a fisherman from Fårö, a small island just north of Gotland, and he'd only gone across the strait on the ferry to the postoffice in the harbour but no further. He'd been to Visby (the capitol city) once for a visit to the "salaaret", took us several houres to understand that one. He'd been to the hospital and laid on a sunbed for his psoriasis. Otherwise he'd stayed on this tiny island all of his 80+ life and never ventured further into Gotland than half a mile.

When I asked the fishermen if they'd ever been to the mainland, about half said yes.

And then it turned out that to them, the mainland wasn't Sweden but Gotland! Non of them had ever gone further than gotland and half of them never left Fårö.
They arent human. I think they are a kind of lichen...

[floatingkiwi]

Mate. This is pretty cool finding this under the step.

I have taken several boats apart in the last few years with not a sign of any history anywhere. Anything left by the original builder was probably lost in subsequent rebuilds/fixes.

[RFNK]

I feel that way too sometimes, but then I get a hug and life gets better.

But srsly, the island is less than a hundred miles long and the people think that you can't go from one end to the other without a sleepover in the middle.
I spoke to a fisherman from Fårö, a small island just north of Gotland, and he'd only gone across the strait on the ferry to the postoffice in the harbour but no further. He'd been to Visby (the capitol city) once for a visit to the "salaaret", took us several houres to understand that one. He'd been to the hospital and laid on a sunbed for his psoriasis. Otherwise he'd stayed on this tiny island all of his 80+ life and never ventured further into Gotland than half a mile.

When I asked the fishermen if they'd ever been to the mainland, about half said yes.

And then it turned out that to them, the mainland wasn't Sweden but Gotland! Non of them had ever gone further than gotland and half of them never left Fårö.
They arent human. I think they are a kind of lichen...

It must be beautiful there!

Rick

[floatingkiwi]

I feel that way too sometimes, but then I get a hug and life gets better.

But srsly, the island is less than a hundred miles long and the people think that you can't go from one end to the other without a sleepover in the middle.
I spoke to a fisherman from Fårö, a small island just north of Gotland, and he'd only gone across the strait on the ferry to the postoffice in the harbour but no further. He'd been to Visby (the capitol city) once for a visit to the "salaaret", took us several houres to understand that one. He'd been to the hospital and laid on a sunbed for his psoriasis. Otherwise he'd stayed on this tiny island all of his 80+ life and never ventured further into Gotland than half a mile.

When I asked the fishermen if they'd ever been to the mainland, about half said yes.

And then it turned out that to them, the mainland wasn't Sweden but Gotland! Non of them had ever gone further than gotland and half of them never left Fårö.
They arent human. I think they are a kind of lichen...

Imagine the fright they would get if they discovered a computer and an internet connection.

[Ryden]

It must be beautiful there!

Rick

Yeah, I'm feeling really homesick right now...

[Ryden]

Imagine the fright they would get if they discovered a computer and an internet connection.

I don't think they would even know enough to be scared.

Sorry for derailing your thread Phil!

And now, back to our regularly scheduled programming.

[Ryden]

Mate. This is pretty cool finding this under the step.

I always have a nagging feeling of insecurity becasue I don't have a coin under my mast. It's a small boat so the masts go in and out all the time and there's no place to put it. Would hammering the coin into the mast foot be acceptable you think?

My dad always had the same coin under the mast and almost didn't launch the boat one year because he'd misplaced it.
The mast didn't go in until two weeks later when he'd found it again.

I think it's really important that you take care of that coin and put it back where it belong with another from her re-birth so to speak.

[Dr.Spoke]

Mate. This is pretty cool finding this under the step.

I have taken several boats apart in the last few years with not a sign of any history anywhere. Anything left by the original builder was probably lost in subsequent rebuilds/fixes.

Yeah, pretty cool finding that... But based on the condition of the boat when we started, there haven't been many re-builds in her past

[Ryden]

Are you going to Katthammarsvik for the Midsummer races Phil?
I'm leaving for Gotland tomorrow and I'll try to go there, weather and family permitting.
/A

[seo]

I suspect that that stove pre-dates IC engines! From the time Husqvarna were primarily weapons manufacturers - "vapenfabrik".

Perhaps this stove was sold in a matched set with a Husqvarna 6.5mm Swede Mauser. One to invite the meal home for dinner, the other to cook the guest of honor.

[seo]

I think whoever designed that stern had spent a lot of time looking at N.G. Herreshoff hulls built to the Universal Rule. And given that he wrote the rule, it stands to reason that he knew how to gimmick it.

[Dr.Spoke]

Are you going to Katthammarsvik for the Midsummer races Phil?
I'm leaving for Gotland tomorrow and I'll try to go there, weather and family permitting.
/A

Wish I had the time... But still loads to do and launch date looming! Pop past if you have time... Bring your blåkläder!

[Dr.Spoke]

I think whoever designed that stern had spent a lot of time looking at N.G. Herreshoff hulls built to the Universal Rule. And given that he wrote the rule, it stands to reason that he knew how to gimmick it.

She was built in 1905 - the year after Hereshoff launched the universal rule - to the Universal rule... So I'm guessing folk would "copy" what N.G. did until there were more boats about, to see what worked... Then came the Int rule which killed the Universal so few boats exist with these "odd" lines.

Busy cutting oak for the keel, I'll get some pics up soon... But long days at the rabbat-face for a while!

[seo]

Given that nobody had much luck beating NGH's Universal rule boats until his ingrate son came along with Yankee, Live Yankee, etc, it's almost surprising that the rule lasted as long as it did.
I'm very curious about the way the new lower frames are done. Is that solid square stock? Then is the plank bevel ground /cut into the square stock? I can see how that would be easy for a well-equipped metal shop with a CNC plasma cutter... If not, how are you going to pad out the frames so that the planking lays snug?
Will there be a sister frame lapping over the joints where the SS frame butts against the wood? I think the usual formula is for the sister to lap by three planks, and be fastened at the same schedule as the regular plank/frame fastenings. Assuming that the upper frames and planks are sound, that should be pretty straightforward. A quick and dirty approach to that is to laminate the sisters, fastening them in place and clamping the glue job with small-diameter machine screws, then after the glue has kicked removing the bolts and sister frame, clean up the frame so it doesn't look like hell, and maybe fasten it back in with rivets, which would certainly look better than a lot of bolt heads and nuts sticking into the hull interior.
As I remember from earlier posts on this thread, the boat will be in the Gulf of Bothnia, which is very nearly fresh water. If that's the case, I don't think you'd have disimilar-metal problems with SS in the frames, copper rivets in the sisters, particularly in a boat that doesn't sit around in a marina plugged into shore power. I've been surprised over the years at how little interaction there is between disimilar plank fastenings.

[Dr.Spoke]

Given that nobody had much luck beating NGH's Universal rule boats until his ingrate son came along with Yankee, Live Yankee, etc, it's almost surprising that the rule lasted as long as it did.
I'm very curious about the way the new lower frames are done. Is that solid square stock? Then is the plank bevel ground /cut into the square stock? I can see how that would be easy for a well-equipped metal shop with a CNC plasma cutter... If not, how are you going to pad out the frames so that the planking lays snug?
Will there be a sister frame lapping over the joints where the SS frame butts against the wood? I think the usual formula is for the sister to lap by three planks, and be fastened at the same schedule as the regular plank/frame fastenings. Assuming that the upper frames and planks are sound, that should be pretty straightforward. A quick and dirty approach to that is to laminate the sisters, fastening them in place and clamping the glue job with small-diameter machine screws, then after the glue has kicked removing the bolts and sister frame, clean up the frame so it doesn't look like hell, and maybe fasten it back in with rivets, which would certainly look better than a lot of bolt heads and nuts sticking into the hull interior.
As I remember from earlier posts on this thread, the boat will be in the Gulf of Bothnia, which is very nearly fresh water. If that's the case, I don't think you'd have disimilar-metal problems with SS in the frames, copper rivets in the sisters, particularly in a boat that doesn't sit around in a marina plugged into shore power. I've been surprised over the years at how little interaction there is between disimilar plank fastenings.

The frames are angle-iron - so they are not that hard to bend to form; and they are sat on thick tar paper, to isolate from the wood and provide that "tight" fit to the plank.
There will be sisters between the "composite" frames: split oak, that will be copper rivetted to ( as you mentioned) three planks. The hull is effectively flat at these points so laminating or such will not be required.
The hull has been fastened with bronze, copper, and galvanized for the last 107 years - the galvanized failed, but after a DC leak into the bilge: copper and bronze are all good. Now the galvanized steel is replaced with 316 SS - which sits beside silicon bronze in the galvanic table - I am not especially worried... maybe the copper will get some abuse now from the silcone bronze?

Not quite the Gulf of Bothnia, that really has Åland as it's southern boundary, but certainly little more than brackish water.