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Thread: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

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  1. #1
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    Default Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Well the new project is finally under way.
    She is an old girl from 1905 and has been somewhat neglected recently.
    Removal of her garboards showed the horror of her rotten/rusted steel ribs and seriously deteriorating hog...


    But she has some interesting history and a quite beguiling shape; so we have 6 months to get her floating again. The interior, and maybe some exterior cosmetics will have to wait, just concentrate on structure and seaworthiness for now.


    I'll be asking for advice, and posting with some details of specific stages, but the day-to-day of the restoration will be posted on her blog
    http://www.therestorationofanoldlady....blogspot.com/

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Very pretty

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Worthy undertaking!! Little by little.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Best wishes ...... looking forward to reading your questions and seeing pictures of your progress.
    This is the first lesson ye should learn: There is so much good in the worst of us, and so much bad in the best of us, it doesn't behoove any of us to speak evil of the rest of us.
    E. Cayce

  5. #5

    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Sorry to say but a shovel is the proper tool here. I have more than once seen rotten frames and floors shoveled onto a dock floor.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Feazer View Post
    Sorry to say but a shovel is the proper tool here. I have more than once seen rotten frames and floors shoveled onto a dock floor.
    Well the preferred tool to get a look at the keel bolts was the shop vacuum!

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Dont coat the stainless with Epoxy. in order for stainless to retain its integrity it needs to breath. the electrolysis can be controlled with a little tool fishermen use called a black box. basically it allows you to tune the voltage of the boat. nice thing to have when the zinks are going in 6 months. lovely project; mind i dont like the boat but the project is nice.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Very interesting shape indeed Doc', I look forward to following this.

    The practice of using 316 SS for the resorations on these boats is intriguing. I assume the restoration society know what they are on about and have considered this quite thoroughly to go down that path. i think they key will be being fastidious in making sure that the welds and cuts are properly passivated and polished before they are fitted.

    Does the society have a web site Doc? I'd be interested in reading more about them
    Larks

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  9. #9
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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Wow, what a project. She's got a beautiful shape. Certainly a worthwhile undertaking.
    Interesting the use of pine. You said very resinous. I wonder if it's similar to our Long Leaf Yellow pine here?
    Fight Entropy, build a wooden boat!

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    WOW ... just ... wow ... I hope you can do it! And you CAN do it. So JUST DO IT!

    Good luck!!

    Brad
    Nothing else matters but how I raise my children ... and their opinion of me, as a father.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    That's the longest and fattest bowsprit I've ever seen but I really like the way it is faired into the hull.

    Seriously, that is a serious overhang at the bow. Is the stern similar? What is the length on deck and the waterline length?

    Those old classics sure are beautiful, though.
    Goat Island Skiff and Simmons Sea Skiff construction photos here:

    http://s176.photobucket.com/albums/w...esMan/?start=0

    and here:

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/37973275@N03/

    "All kings are not the same."

  12. #12

    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    I look forward to this. The use of stainless (316) in substitution of the current ribs sounds very interesting, given what many here feel about stainless on boats.

    Good luck, a most intriguing rebuild.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Reynard38 View Post
    Wow, what a project. She's got a beautiful shape. Certainly a worthwhile undertaking.
    Interesting the use of pine. You said very resinous. I wonder if it's similar to our Long Leaf Yellow pine here?
    No idea, I'll try and find ( or cut) a nice clean piece and leave it up to the experts here. But part of the garboard that wasn't rotten smelt like fresh cut pine as I was cutting with the tiger saw!

    Quote Originally Posted by MiddleAgesMan View Post
    That's the longest and fattest bowsprit I've ever seen but I really like the way it is faired into the hull.

    Seriously, that is a serious overhang at the bow. Is the stern similar? What is the length on deck and the waterline length?

    Those old classics sure are beautiful, though.
    38ft overall, 22ft waterline, 9ft wide... A little pic of her stern...


    Quote Originally Posted by mikefrommontana View Post
    I look forward to this. The use of stainless (316) in substitution of the current ribs sounds very interesting, given what many here feel about stainless on boats.

    Good luck, a most intriguing rebuild.
    This has been keeping me up at nights... But in the end the decision was made for me before I got involved. Stainless is the "best practice" for restoring these compound ribbed hulls here in sweden. It is that which is recommended by the surveyors and builders associated with the "restoration society" for these boats. And the current boat building students learn to use this - and she will have a future after me.

    Quote Originally Posted by brad9798 View Post
    WOW ... just ... wow ... I hope you can do it! And you CAN do it. So JUST DO IT!

    Good luck!!

    Brad
    Thanks for the confidence!

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Doc first understand the whole project , then file that information , then take on one part , and use it as a templet , and create a new piece , before long everything is ready to reassemble , and it becomes fun again



    Only took a day or so to build this floor , because the old floor made a good templet .



    I prefer bronze to work with , it does not warp up when you weld , and is easy to cut and form . The material cost is higher , but I think you make up for it in fab time . Stainless (316) is my less favorite material to work with .

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    This will be interesting!

    /Fredrik

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Forgive me if this has been covered. It looks like there is a line of weakness where the frames change to steel in a line. Would it be good to have extended the new steel past the existing wood to eliminate this transition? Or perhaps straddle the area with something extending both ways in the line of the frames to brace them?

    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    Forgive me if this has been covered. It looks like there is a line of weakness where the frames change to steel in a line. Would it be good to have extended the new steel past the existing wood to eliminate this transition? Or perhaps straddle the area with something extending both ways in the line of the frames to brace them?

    No... Absolutely correct! The oak covered the steel to just past the second fastening.... But had to be cut away to get att the rivets! My original idea was to scarf a piece over the steel, but now I think a short oak sister will be quicker, easier and ultimately stronger.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Having nosed around a lot of old Swedish boats,i still dont understand the use of all this stainless. A laxkutter (fishing/motor-sailor) that i was interested in buying was loaded with stainless fastenings and fittings,however it was found after a short trail that diesel was leaking in the bilge,and after removing the two tanks,was found to have suffered "pock-marked" electrolysis.....in excess of 300 small pin holes,the tanks were junked,and i didnt buy it.

    Lutine ,renamed Lutine Of Helford, built for the Lloyds Insurance of London was rebuilt,and her steel frames replaced with galvanized frames and fastenings,as originally fitted.

    Swedes are well known for taking asthetics very seriously,it wouldnt surprise me if the use of stainless is to avoid the unsightly sight of rust. Personally,i wouldnt touch it,certainly not for frames.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    She looks fast. Do you have any idea what her rig looked like? This should be an interesting thread to follow.

    Steve

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by stromborg View Post
    She looks fast. Do you have any idea what her rig looked like? This should be an interesting thread to follow.

    Steve
    She was built to The Universal Rule with a 66sqm gaff rig. Over the years she has also raced as a 75sqm and a 55 - which is her current rig. We will see how she performs with this rig, but during repairs we will build in the options to increase the rig or revert to a gaff.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Seagoing Maidie..?!

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Steel and wood do not mix.
    I love the smell of fresh cut plywood in the morning.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Legendary Yachts use steel framing on new construction. They fab all the frames from steel, including boring all screw holes, then send them out for Hot Dip Galvanizing, then coat in Coal Tar Epoxy.

    They also however, usually cold mold a hull around this framework, so water entry is pretty minimal.

    Bronze will be the "first class" method of doing it, but you'd have to get all Steel/Iron out of the boat so as not to introduce an excellent environment for dissolving all the new lumber you use.

    New protected steel and new lumber with care, will give you a life-time's use of a stout boat.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    You mention in your blog how the keel bolts appear to be in good condition. Have you actually withdrawn one or two fully, to inspect their soundness?
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    You mention in your blog how the keel bolts appear to be in good condition. Have you actually withdrawn one or two fully, to inspect their soundness?
    Not yet! The only bits I cannot inspect are approximately 3 inches through the keel plank - but as we have to replace the keel plank anyway... I'll cross that bridge when I get to it.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    The first, "trial", pair of ribs fitted well... So I bit the bullet and pulled 10 pairs to be sent to the fabricators!
    This wasn't a hard job now the bilge is open, just tedious, cramped, and dirty ( the ribs in the counter will be a pleasure!). Pulled about 400 plugs out of the planking that is left, probably only 800 still to pull - for the steel rib jobs.
    Sadly found some more planking that is beyond saving - but the stern-post seems better than at first glance. The stem is in "dubious" condition, but much seems to be in a previous repair. The repair certainly was functional, but I am not happy with the way it was done and how the planking was fitted to it. Nor indeed the repairs on the planking at that point - two short planks butt joined at the same point in the port forefoot... The continuation of one plank is also very poor - so I'll cut back one and scarf in a new piece, the other will be replaced entirely. Now up to about 210m of planking to be done... Might need to treat myself to a new plane....
    Left a list of jobs for the owner to carry on with and returned home to see the family and catch up with some "work".

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!



    Is that a traveller for the headsail on the foredeck? For a boomed staysail or whatever its called?
    Love that small port in the forward hatch coaming.
    Last edited by floatingkiwi; 01-12-2012 at 02:11 PM.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    (/Quote)Is that a traveller for the headsail on the foredeck? For a boomed staysail or whatever its called?
    Love that small port in the forward hatch coaming.[/QUOTE]

    Yeah, the traveller is for a lazy jib self-tacker. Works fine for cruising with a 100% jib. Obviously with a larger sail for racing it becomes unmanageable.
    Here's a pic from her in better days:


    The ports in the fore-hatch coming are rather sweet. There is a fair bit of nice, original, hardware on her that will be a pleasure to re-fit into good wood. The only question is whether to polish and keep it so, polish and let it take on new patina, or to leave "as is".

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Well the first of the half-ribs are fitted - if only temporarily. The planking they are attached to will, for the most part, need replacing. But they, and the planking, need to be there to continue with the frame and rib replacement. At first sight they appear very fair - but the proof will be when I get a batten across them. Then a little "tweaking" may be necessary!



    Inside they fit snugly to the planking:



    Larks, the restoration fund has this as a link: http://www.sskf.se/rf/ ... But sadly it is in swedish... But if you look through some of the restorations you will see the prevalence of stainless.

    Once these were in place we pulled 8 pairs of these half ribs and 3 pairs of frames. These went to the fabricators for re-making in stainless on tuesday - we got them back today! But both Oscar and I have too much on our plates to look at the boat for another week ( funny how wives don't understand the pressing needs of our mistress!)

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    It's cold on Gotland! Needed to remedy that in the workshop....

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Interesting stove, seems like a good reason for Husqvarna to make chainsaws......make it easier to cut wood and more people will buy wood burning stoves....
    Larks

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Larks View Post
    Interesting stove, seems like a good reason for Husqvarna to make chainsaws......make it easier to cut wood and more people will buy wood burning stoves....
    I suspect that that stove pre-dates IC engines! From the time Husqvarna were primarily weapons manufacturers - "vapenfabrik".

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Spoke View Post
    I suspect that that stove pre-dates IC engines! From the time Husqvarna were primarily weapons manufacturers - "vapenfabrik".
    Perhaps this stove was sold in a matched set with a Husqvarna 6.5mm Swede Mauser. One to invite the meal home for dinner, the other to cook the guest of honor.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!




    What are the new ribs made of? They seem mighty thin when butted up against the old...
    R
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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Redeye View Post



    What are the new ribs made of? They seem mighty thin when butted up against the old...
    Stainless steel - same dimension as the galvanized that was removed... Quite a lot smaller than the oak!

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Spoke View Post
    Stainless steel - same dimension as the galvanized that was removed... Quite a lot smaller than the oak!
    Dr. Do you know how much the keel weighs ? May I ask why you used square stock , rather then strap or angle stock ? What alloy of stainless ? My concerns are the lack of over lap of the structural components that take the loads of that keel . The other concern I have , is it looks like you have drilled threw the SS rib , removing a large percentage of its cross section , leaving a weak spot at each whole , then swelling a rivet at each weak spot , adding to the possibility of stress cracks at each rivet . If you were to drill and tap those holes only deep enough , say 2 tread diameters , your weak spots would be many times stronger , and if you used SS screws of the same alloy , you wont have electrolysis swelling each hole again trying to crack your ribs . Bob

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by ramillett View Post
    Dr. Do you know how much the keel weighs ? May I ask why you used square stock , rather then strap or angle stock ? What alloy of stainless ? My concerns are the lack of over lap of the structural components that take the loads of that keel . The other concern I have , is it looks like you have drilled threw the SS rib , removing a large percentage of its cross section , leaving a weak spot at each whole , then swelling a rivet at each weak spot , adding to the possibility of stress cracks at each rivet . If you were to drill and tap those holes only deep enough , say 2 tread diameters , your weak spots would be many times stronger , and if you used SS screws of the same alloy , you wont have electrolysis swelling each hole again trying to crack your ribs . Bob
    It is angle stock - the half-ribs are 25mm x 25mm x 3mm. the frames - which carry the keel bolts, and continue to deck level - are 30mm x 30mm x 3mm. All is 316/A4 Passive: they are doubled at every keel-bolt, as the original. The metal is bedded onto the wood with tar-paper.
    The original material is galvanized mild steel, fastened with galv.rivets ( 8mm shaft). I am fastening with 316/A4 passive bolts with nylock nuts... Working 316 as a rivet didn't seem practical.
    Floors will be welded "in situ" in 316 plate, before the new keel plank is fitted, these will be constructed with 316 pipes to take the compression forces of the keel in a box sections between adjacent frames.
    My calculations put the keel at about 2.7 tonnes.

    PhilMac

    p.s. Joel there's a house for you here if you want a working break!

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    You have a nice stove. I think now you have hot "upstairs" and cold floor, I had too, find somewhere old kitchen fan, put it upside down to ceiling other side of shop and pipe down to floor to circulate air "downstairs", it helps.
    My shop was 5decrees warmer in mornings after fan assembly, because concrete floor store heat.

    Matti

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    If you are using Stainless steel for the ribs, what are the main hull fastenings?
    Daniel

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by dhic001 View Post
    If you are using Stainless steel for the ribs, what are the main hull fastenings?
    Daniel
    316/A4 Passive bolts

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Can you provide more detail about this transom removal business? Some pics of the area and a description of what and why?
    That shot shows the interior of the vessel. Where were the chainsaw cuts made and what condition is the surrounding structure? Nosey bugger eh mate? Tell me to hit it if ya don't want to bother.
    ..don't judge a man till you've walked a mile in his shoes..

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by floatingkiwi View Post
    Can you provide more detail about this transom removal business? Some pics of the area and a description of what and why?
    That shot shows the interior of the vessel. Where were the chainsaw cuts made and what condition is the surrounding structure? Nosey bugger eh mate? Tell me to hit it if ya don't want to bother.
    I can do that during the week sometime, or you can click on my blog... At the bottom here in blue!... Which saves me doing the job twice... Not that I'm a Lazy Ba****d or anything... Just a wee bit busy Trying to get the boat ready for splashing next month....
    The chainsaw was for carving the knee from a bit of tree that had been seasoning for a decade or so.

    Thanks Lagspiller, I still have my doubts.... Two or three times a day!

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by Matti View Post
    You have a nice stove. I think now you have hot "upstairs" and cold floor, I had too, find somewhere old kitchen fan, put it upside down to ceiling other side of shop and pipe down to floor to circulate air "downstairs", it helps.
    My shop was 5decrees warmer in mornings after fan assembly, because concrete floor store heat.

    Matti
    Thanks, I'll try that! We've been just blowing over the stove to circulate air.

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Well... not like we haven't got enough to do... but found another boat in one of the sheds...

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Hi!
    I read you nomenclature, there might some frustration for wise guys on forum?
    You are getting good advice, taught not asked! I think, they mean good, although they don't know difference between 304/316
    Someone has used 304 or have read to ...
    In this forum I read; somewhere they are milling 316 for propeller shaft! Nobody here uses 316, it is unstable and soft, shaft must be 329
    and so on...maybe in most remote areas they must use what is available.
    We have some paper mills as you and there in 316 pipes are so hazardous acids that burn you skin at once, I can't figure how any wood can ruin that less than one hundred years?
    Here in scandinavia "we" build boats and wooden ships time when in america they used birchbark canoes and Oz eat worms which they dig from ground.
    Just go ahead!!!!
    It is dangerous to have some jokes, people are very thin skins in some way, fat people have their own justification to say to you that you are skinny, but if I say him/her that you are terrible fat, that is insult although it is the truth!

    You have mates growing, good.

    Sorry my english, this is mostly for training

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Hi Phil,
    Though it doesn't feel that way now, spring is in the air, and thoughts turn to boats. I've been away from the forum for the winter and missed the start of your project, though it has been in my thoughts, as have you. It looks like you really hit the ground running! From now on, I'll be watching your progress. Will she be coming to Stockholm for the start of Gotlandrunt?!

    All in all, great work so far, and I hope you are well yourself. Give a shout when you need a break and I'll fix you a libation!

    Cheers,
    Joel

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Hi Joel,
    Good to hear from you! No we'll not be ready for Gotland runt.... See you in Nynäshamn on the 19th?
    http://www.cbm2012.eu/

    Hopefully we'll make it... But if things get tight i'll offer beer and board for a weeks torture-boarding ;-)

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    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Hi again Phil,
    I'd love to contribute to the job, we'll just have to see how the summer starts shaping up, which weekends I have free, etc, and I'll be full up after midsummer preping the docks for the start of Gotlandrunt. I'll have a chat with the miss (she's been talking about that we need to get over to Gotland), I might even be able to get a friend involved who has a summer place nearby. But it all depends, yes, on the work schedule.......

    .......but man what a beauty of a boat!

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    16,771

    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    In this forum I read; somewhere they are milling 316 for propeller shaft! Nobody here uses 316, it is unstable and soft, shaft must be 329
    Now he tells me!
    At the age of 62 I have come to realise that you can't breed out stupidity.

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Mandurah, Western Oz....or Wongawallan Qld......or....er..somewhere in-between
    Posts
    12,345

    Default Re: Scary Pics - not for the faint hearted!

    Quote Originally Posted by WX View Post
    Now he tells me!
    Don't worry Gary, 316 is fine and pretty much standard for a small shaft and low horsepower.
    Larks

    "Be who you are and say what you feel...
    Because those that matter...don't mind...
    And those that mind.... don't matter."

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

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