Small

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-26-2002, 11:46 AM

Antonio Dias has an interesting 13' daysailer
design called Small (interesting because 12' is
too small and 14' is not small enough.) Any
builders out there? I ask because Dias's website
(http://www.diasdesign.com) only seems to show a
boat built by a professional - stretched, to boot.

Sakari Aaltonen

**Shalfleet** · 10-26-2002, 02:36 PM

I am also interested in Small. Have you read the section in Dias' book (Designer & Client I think)? It give a lot of detail on how the design was developed over time and some of the key requirements. I found the fact that all components (rudder, oars etc) are stored in specially designed places to make for easy trailering. She seem to be a nice alternative to Oughtred's designs, perhaps somewhere between a Gannet and a Guillemot?

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-26-2002, 02:58 PM

No, I haven't read Dias's book - his designs generally are out (way out) of my size range.

The Oughtred design I myself have considered an alternative is Tammie Norrie.

Sakari Aaltonen

**Thad** · 10-26-2002, 04:13 PM

Send Tony a message asking your questions. diasdesign@earthlink.net

[ 10-26-2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: Thad ]

**Don Maurer** · 10-26-2002, 05:16 PM

Small is a modern sailing dinghy with a wide transom, no skeg and extended outwales for hiking out. Tammie Norrie is a traditional ship's boat. Actually, a small jolly boat. Small should sail faster. Tammie Norrie will row better. Both use similar construction and should take about the same amount of time to build. I built the Tammie Norrie.

**Gary Bergman** · 10-26-2002, 09:00 PM

Don, tell me a little more on the specs for Tammie as I'm about ready for another dink...Gary

**Don Maurer** · 10-27-2002, 01:58 AM

The Tammie Norrie is an Iain Oughtred design. It used to be called "Grebe". It is a 13' 6" x 4' 6" traditional sailing dinghy. Laptrake plywood construction, 8 strakes per side. It has a round hull section with firm bilges. Iain provides sail plans for a boomless cat rigged lug sail, a balanced lug yawl and a gunter sloop. The boomless lug sail and balanced lug sail are interchangeable. I built mine with steps for both a cat rig and a sloop rig. I intend to use it as a sailing trainer, and wanted it as versatile as possible. My first rig will be a balanced lug cat rig. I followed Iain's plans fairly closely. I added side benches between the thwarts, (Iain only showed them aft of the thwarts), and a wet locker with a grate forward of the mast partner. Iain shows an optional seat in this area.

As I mentioned, the boat is based on a ship's boat. It is actually a small jolly boat. A dead ringer for the jolly boat in the first Horatio Hornblower installment, except it has less framing due to the lapstrake plywood construction.

Here is a link that shows the construction process. http://cullisonsmallcraft.com/recentpage.htm

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-27-2002, 03:30 AM

There is a difference in building method between Small and Tammie Norrie, in that Dias recommends strip planking; Oughtred, clinker plywood. The former might be easier (I have only done stitch-and-glue and nail-and-glue, as yet.)

Then again, the professionally-built Small is clinker, and Oughtred lists strip-planking as an alternative for Tammie Norrie. I'm a bit confused.

**Gary Bergman** · 10-27-2002, 09:15 AM

Don, Thanks for the info.Looks like a winner for me as I'm negotiating on a rather large reenactment vessel and the lapstrake would go well with the period.

**Don Maurer** · 10-27-2002, 12:41 PM

The original brief in "Designer and Client" specified glued lapstrake construction for Small. I'll bet the designer will provide the specs for that construction method if you ask.

**Omay Elphick** · 10-27-2002, 07:49 PM

I am currently building a Small here in Colorado. Tony is a great designer to work with and eager to see his clients successfully complete his designs. I would recommend his book. It has a good discription of the thought process behind Small's design. The actual design has evolved since the version in the book was printed.

I am building a 14ft version using glued lapstrake, which is how the current drawings are drawn. I have finished the mold, stem, keel and transom and am about to glue on the garboard plank.

Appearently , finished versions of small perform very well. Tony has a lot of ideas on how to further improve performance. Many of them have to do with lightening the boat by not using solid cherry seats, etc. and adding a hollow mast or carbon fiber spar with a sloop rig.

I plan to use the boat as a day sailer with annual dinghy cruising trips during the summer. I'd be happy to answer any questions you have.

Omay

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-28-2002, 12:39 AM

Omay,
great to hear from an actual builder. First question: what do the plans include? Specifically, is there any detail on rigging and the hardware that goes with it? I ask because my sailing experience is minimal,that is, it consists of two weeks last August with a boat that has a single lugsail and an unstayed mast. Small has *two* sails and stays, and I worry about all the strange things this entails. Words like 'chainplate', 'vang', 'fairlead', 'turnbuckle', etc. make my mind reel.

So your plans are for lapstrake? This is surprising, as the Small webpage specifically mentions strip. That's one of the reasons I got interested - as I said earlier, strip-building might be easier. Of course, if you are familiar with one of the two techniques, it might be easy to adapt plans to the other. (I'm unfamiliar with both and assume that some adaptation is, in fact, needed.)

**Omay Elphick** · 10-28-2002, 08:26 AM

Sakari,

For any questions I would incourage you to call Tony Dias directly you can reach him at 401-783-4959. You can also order the study plans. In addition, with the study plans and the first chapter from his boat many of your questions will be answered, including ones you didn't even know you had.

Regarding the rig, it is very simple and there are detailed drawings in the plans. If you were interested in another rig, I am sure Tony would consider drawing them for you.

Strip vs. clinker ply. I think they both have their advatages and disadvantages. I built an adirondack guide boat a few years ago and remember being frustrated and challenged about the same amount. Much of it having to do with working in an unheated garage....Both methods are satisfying.

If you are new to boatbuilding or want a design with more detail I would consider Arch Davis's Penobscot 14. Similair size, but I believe will make a slightly better rowing boat. The Small on the other hand will be a better sailboat. I also think that because the Penobscot 14 has been around for a while, the construction notes and drawings are more detailed. There is a 3 issue article in Woodenboat about the Penobscot 14 plus a video.

Omay

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-28-2002, 12:29 PM

Omay,
I have sent Antonio Dias two emails; he answered the first promptly and amiably, but I have had no reply to the second one, sent last Thursday. Maybe he's away? I live in Europe and am loath to use the telephone.

I have read the WB Penobscot 14 articles (many times), but, somehow, 13' just seems the right size for me. (Iain Oughtred, by the way, seems to have a largish gap between Shearwater (11'9") and Gannet (14'6").)

Sakari

**Omay Elphick** · 10-28-2002, 11:24 PM

Sakari,

Don't give up on Tony, he is much easier to reach by phone. He has told me a few times that he gets behind on his emails, but he's always willing to chat if you get him on the phone. Inevitably I call him with two questions and he answers an additional 4 questions that I didn't even know I had.

You might ask arch davis about shrinking the Penobscot 14 to 13 feet. I know that most of these design in this range are readily stretchable or shrinkable by a foot. Just a thought.

Omay

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-29-2002, 01:31 PM

Omay,
weary of waiting, I took the plunge and made a (transatlantic) phone call to Tony Dias. It appears that he will let his email pile up for a *week*. As if that wasn't enough, he does not have a *fax machine*.

Even Phil Bolger has one...

But, enough whining. You wouldn't have any pictures of your progress so far? Me, I'm still debating the (glued) lapstrake versus strip/composite issue. Pine plywood could look nice finished bright; a strip-built hull would probably have to be painted...

Sakari

**Meerkat** · 10-29-2002, 01:56 PM

I question if strip planking is easier then glued lapstrake. It seems like there's a lot of fitting of all those planks and then there's the filling and fairing off, which sounds pretty tedious. Compared to that, you have 4-7 planks per side to fit, possibly some light planing of the lands to make them curve nicely and you're done.

Anyone out there done both?

**cherokee** · 10-29-2002, 06:09 PM

yes- done both and i'll ring in for glued lapstrake everytime- meerkat's got it right on the sanding,fairing and -DUST! uhgg! only advntg i see to strip is when one has already at hand nice lumber and wants to use it and not buy the ply. if starting fresh with no material and the hull shape merits it i go lapstrake now. my first was the 11' oughtred acorn skiff and was a delight to shape the strakes on the bandsaw and blockplane the edges,cut the rabbets-instead of mix,mix,mix,mix.brush,brush,brush.as far as skill if your setting to build a boat you need to work the stem/keel/moulds etc and if you can handle that and read the kings english you can teach yourself to build a clinker boat and be a boatbuilder then for your trouble.....and everyone(most) loves the nostalgia of the clinker boats- something ancient i suppose....go for the lapstrake! john

**DougC** · 10-29-2002, 07:28 PM

Omay, I'm interested in hearing more about your Adirondack Guideboat, which construction method did you use and what was the outcome?

**Meerkat** · 10-30-2002, 01:36 AM

Originally posted by Meerkat:
I question if strip planking is easier then glued lapstrake. It seems like there's a lot of fitting of all those planks and then there's the filling and fairing off, which sounds pretty tedious. Compared to that, you have 4-7 planks per side to fit, possibly some light planing of the lands to make them curve nicely and you're done.

Anyone out there done both?

Correcting myself: I meant the plank edges might need a little fairing (planing) to have a nice straight line, not the lands which are the place where one plank lands on the other and it's glued to - also called the faying (gluing) surface.

I highly recommend Iain Oughtred's book if you're contemplating a glued lapstrake boat. I don't see how it could fail to help anyone using this technique.

**Sakari Aaltonen** · 10-30-2002, 06:36 AM

I do have Oughtred's Clinker Plywood Boatbuilding book, but Tom Hill's (Ultralight Boatbuilding?) was much easier to read. I'm always confused by Oughtred's D's and P's. I had to read the book twice before it started making sense.

In any case, speaking of Oughtred, it will be remembered that he has a 14'6" design called Gannet. That's not small enough (for me), but now I came across http://www.independenceboatworks.com showing a Gannet shrunk to 12'. So why not shrink Gannet to 13', my favored size?

Like Dias, Oughtred doesn't have a fax machine, but at least he lives on my side of the pond. (Or does he? He seems to have a new address every time he pops up.)

Sakari

**Omay Elphick** · 10-30-2002, 11:08 AM

Doug,

I built my guideboat adirondack using ceder strips. Although I didn't initially use ribs, I now think that I'm going to add a few ribs near the center station molds, in addition to a inwale. Other than that, the design was adapted from the Durant book by New Found Boatworks. When I had purchaced full size drawings they had not finished their prototype and there were therefore no construction notes or detailed drawings. I relied on the Durant book for all construction notes. We've been very happy with the design. It is fast, a great camping boat and fantastic fishing platform. With two people, a dog and camping gear, it is as stable as a barge. With one person, and fishing gear, it feels like you are rowing a single scull. Very fast.

Omay

**DougC** · 10-30-2002, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by Omay Elphick:
Doug,

I built my guideboat adirondack using ceder strips.
We've been very happy with the design. It is fast, a great camping boat and fantastic fishing platform. With two people, a dog and camping gear, it is as stable as a barge. With one person, and fishing gear, it feels like you are rowing a single scull. Very fast.

Omay

Omay, thanks. This is what I've been looking for, especially the dog and the single scull part. Have been trying to decide on a rec. scull or a lapstrake canoe for my next project. Also considered the guideboat which seems to have it all. I know, I know "every boat is a compromise" . . .
Will start a new thread on Adirondack guideboats.
Doug

**Franz F.** · 11-12-2002, 11:14 AM

Hi
it might be too late, but I have a lot of experience with boatbuilding and kids.
Last projekt was a single handed paddling canoe, designed for a children, 13 boats were built in one day.

take a look at my homepage:
http://www.emubo.com

Florian

**imported_Steven Bauer** · 11-12-2002, 11:32 AM

I tok some pics at the Maine Boatbuilder's Show in March of the Small that William Clements built.
The pics don't really do it justice, it was beautiful.

Check out the bronze sheet horse:

**landlocked sailor** · 11-12-2002, 05:18 PM

I thought long and hard about "Small" a couple years ago. Even went to visit Tony while on vacation in RI. I just could never like the absolutely plumb transom though. I like to lay against the transom while sailing downwind and that bolt upright position just doesn't seem comfortable. Rick

**Omay Elphick** · 11-14-2002, 10:38 AM

Steve,

Great pictures. Do you have anymore. I'd love to see some more construction details.

Omay

**Omay Elphick** · 12-10-2002, 09:33 AM

Does anyone out there have any additional pictures of Small. I am currently working on the planking, but am starting to plan how I am going to fit out the interior. Any pictures would be great.

Omay

Thread: Small

Thread Tools

Display

Posting Permissions