Cutter to Schooner to Yawl

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  • Owens Cutter
    Junior Member
    • Feb 2003
    • 13

    Cutter to Schooner to Yawl

    I am a partner with schooner-lover whose recent search for a lawn mower yielded a 34'strip planked Wiliam Garden designed hull that deserves and schooner rig. The more recent "find"--- a "free" only cost a few bucks to build a boathouse, shore up the floor, transport , and donate money for sails --blah blah blah--- yes absolutely free 40' Owens Cutter; truely the predecessor to the Hinkley 41 and near completion has become the recent focus of our efforts. The "schooner hull" as she is affectionately reffered to, sits quietly--like a piano in the corner-- that no one in the house can play...Erstwhile we work like fools on the "hinkley" , hoping for a launching this year (before thanksgiving ,because sailing after halloween in Boston harbor starts getting lonely, and noone will go out with me except my son.) The question is a almost religious; Is it blasphemy to take a boat like the cutter and alter her to a schooner? There are many nay-sayers in the neighborhood,and frankly I'd like to see her as a yawl, but that'll never happen !Didn't great old boats get alterations between seasons, and is the math very complex?

    Guy
  • Wiley Baggins
    Senior Member
    • May 2002
    • 1447

    #2
    I think the "math" would be the easy part. If the boat was built as a cutter, I doubt that the floors, keel, or mast step (singular) are built to accommodate the masts (plural).

    Comment

    • John B
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2000
      • 31706

      #3
      plenty of precedents though.
      Find out about CLR and C/E and play with some sail plans first. Get Aldens book ... Carrick? and look at some sailplans. That's where I would start.

      Comment

      • brian.cunningham
        Multihuller
        • Jan 2002
        • 2451

        #4
        Here's a good page on balancing a rig, it's for canoes but it will give you the idea.

        Setting Up Your Sailing Canoe Rig
        Brian T. Cunningham
        SWIFTWOOD - my schooner rigged trimaran sailing kayak
        http://members.aol.com/swiftwood/

        Comment

        • JimConlin
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2000
          • 10684

          #5
          Just guessing, but i'd fear that this project would involve most of the following:
          New mast steps
          New spars
          new standing rigging
          new sails
          new running rigging
          relocate most deck hardware and associated deck joinery
          reinforce deck beams at new partners locations
          new chainplates and associated structure
          rework interior for new mast locations
          relocate/replace tanks ditto

          Now, having reckoned the cost of this, Is a schooner that much more desirable a boat? To you? To the market?

          Comment

          • SailBoatDude
            Riccelli Restorations
            • Sep 2000
            • 218

            #6
            A gaff cutter with triple headsails and topsail is almost as pretty as a schooner . . .

            Comment

            • Owens Cutter
              Junior Member
              • Feb 2003
              • 13

              #7
              Did any of you guys see how long it took Bud Macantosh to to make a spar from a tree using not much more than bar-b-que tools and string? If I were daunted by a list I would've gone to work today; instead, I played hookey and went to the boathouse. Cold today; 18F outside -3F when we got up, 40 to 50 inside though (workable). I'm jealous of you guys in warmer climates; this has been our coldest on winter on record.
              The interior refit would be more of a drag than the exposed chainplates. I'm actually looking forward to making a new main mast for her since the orig owner had an altercation with a bridge... guess who won ? Any feeback on Ash as an alternate for hollow spar material? Plenty of Ash and White Pine on site, No spruce though.

              I should tell you guys the mahogony story sometime. It was like a dream , and I never woke up

              Guy

              Comment

              • amason
                Senior Member
                • Mar 2002
                • 216

                #8
                Al designed one sailboat that offered either a cutter or ketch rig. The cutter rig totaled 10 sq.ft. more sail area. The mainmast was located in the same position for both rigs, but the ketch mast was shorter.

                Al also offered a choice of a schooner or sloop rig on another design. In this case, the sail area on the schooner was quite a bit more than the sloop. The biggest drawback to the schooner rig was that it put the mainmast almost dead center in the main cabin while the the sloop rig put the mainmast just forward of the main cabin.

                In both designs, the suggested interior arrangement was identical.

                I would suggest discussing your ideas with a professional. Many are willing [or at least used to be willing] to listen to your ideas and will provide some general suggestions at at little or no cost. Al was usually able to provide a quick yeah or neigh on the workability of an idea, at no charge to the individual.

                Hope this helps,
                Anita
                [Al\'s daughter]

                Comment

                • Bayboat
                  Resident curmudgeon
                  • Feb 2000
                  • 1079

                  #9
                  Guy: I would certainly follow Anita's advice and consult a professional naval architect before doing any alterations. Otherwise, there's a good chance of really screwing up a good boat. It's very expensive to make a major change of rig, and as Jim Conlin says, it involves a lot more than just installing different masts.
                  Ash is a bit heavy for a mast--pine would be better; Sitka spruce is worth the expense.
                  Although the Owens Cutter is a very successful design, and is a great sailer, many of them were not built to really good standards of construction. Something to keep in mind if you do decide to change the rig. She will probably need beefing up in a number of places. That, again, will require the advice of a professional.
                  In the end, you'll find that performance as a schnooner will be considerably worse than as a cutter.
                  Bottom line: If you want a schooner, buy a schooner.

                  Comment

                  • Owens Cutter
                    Junior Member
                    • Feb 2003
                    • 13

                    #10
                    Bayboat,
                    Pleeasse... Tell me anything you know regarding the construction standard. I was under the impression that when they were built in the Hinkley yard they made some adjustments. Do you think Hinkley would be able to give me any feedback? From what I can see the entire boat is mahog., cedar, white oak, teak, bronze,stainless. and lead. Not a cheap vegtable or mineral in the bunch. Talk to me please

                    Guy

                    Comment

                    • Thad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2000
                      • 6364

                      #11
                      Is it TAMARASK (sic?) you have there? As stated it is a fine design, and as you know the materials are good, but it is also true that the construction is rather light. That is what I always heard, though I never really inspected her structure myself. When we replaced the keel of a Southwester 34 a couple of years ago I was surprised to find some of the frames sawn, we are talking midship timbers molded 1 3/8 with full belly through the turn of bilge and reverse curve to the keel, and they were not broken, though some of their bent mates were. Just a note of questionable construction when floor and frame spaces are not real close. A great sailer if you can rebuild her to stand up to the sailing.

                      Comment

                      • Owens Cutter
                        Junior Member
                        • Feb 2003
                        • 13

                        #12
                        Thad,
                        Yes Tamerisk.
                        The planking is 3/4" mahog over 3/8" cedar, Orig glued together while planking , bronze fastened with 2" #12's , and fastened internally w/ a zillion 1/2 " bronce screws,Though the frames are light There is diagonal banding also screwed from the inside. There was a chronic "nail rot" problem but scrrews below the waterline were mostly replaced. Wew've done an eleborate splining operation which required ripping a 5/16" kerf @ each joint and installing a beveled mahog. spline with WEST 404 . She will be ready for the encapsulation in March. I'm hoping the encapsulation and splining will stiffen her sufficiently to allow me to sail the paint off her. Any thoughts that would help beef her besides the above mentioned???
                        And how did you discern Tamarisk? Did you own this boat once ?

                        Guy

                        Comment

                        • Bayboat
                          Resident curmudgeon
                          • Feb 2000
                          • 1079

                          #13
                          At one time I worked for an Owens dealer, and formed the opinion that the boats were not built to high standards of workmanship. The power cruisers were fast-production boats, and we often had to do a bit of rebuilding before offering them for sale. This did not improve when Brunswick took over. I didn't know that Hinckley
                          built some of the cutters. I didn't see Hinckley standards of construction in the two with which I was familiar: one named "Redhead" at Berkeley and the other awaiting extensive rebuilding at Red Nimphius's yard in Wisconsin. I found the scantlings generally on the light side, and some of the joinerwork a bit crude. Their light construction probably contributed to their spritely sailing qualities. Sorry, it's been a long time since I saw these boats, so I can't give you a breakdown of "faults," only what is preserved as a general impression. In the context of changing the rig, I would venture the opinion that a lot of rebuilding and beefing up in the way of chainplates, stem timbers, partners and steps would be necessary. Plus any backstay anchorings.
                          Are you thinking of tamarack rather than tamarisk?
                          The latter is an Old World tropical and subtropical shrub or small tree. Probably the best known species is a Mediterranean shrub planted as an ornamental.
                          I take it those splines went into the seams of the outer shell. You describe it as "3/4" mahog[any]." Is it true mahogany or "Philippine?" And the splines, which are they? True mahogany would seem a bit hard for splines, which should be somewhat compressible. By "encapsulation" do you mean fiberglassing the whole hull? Why do this if the seam splining is successful? You should read up on the many opinions expressed on this forum, pro and con.

                          Comment

                          • Owens Cutter
                            Junior Member
                            • Feb 2003
                            • 13

                            #14
                            Bayboat,

                            Tamarisk the shrub is correct . as for the planking it is a hard mahogany ( Honduran I think ) the splines are a Phillipine.
                            The splining was done "by the numbers"
                            according to a WEST method which will include coating the hull in two coats of resin to stabilize the wood and hopefully preserve and stiffen the hull.

                            [ 02-16-2003, 06:19 PM: Message edited by: Owens Cutter ]

                            Comment

                            • Thad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2000
                              • 6364

                              #15
                              TAMARISK I knew when she sailed out of Marblehead before her troubled period. It would be nice to think you will get her going again. My impression conforms with Bayboat's. Certainly if you were thinking of changing the rig you would have to seriously strengthen the hull in the areas where you were adding stress. This is probably not a great idea. Better keep her a cutter.

                              Comment

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