Glen L power/row flat bottom skiffs

[klitz]

Has anyone in this group built the Glen L power/row flat bottom skiff? They are 11.5 ft, 13.5 ft & 15.5 ft. They are not S&G process like a similar version by Glen L. They look like a stable boat, very beamy. They actually come in 3 widths narrow, std & wide. Just curious.

[JimD]

Can't say I've built or used one but looking at them the first thing one notices is that the power and row versions are different boats. They both have a sharp entry, which is typically a good thing for flat bottoms, but aft they are not the same. The row version has considerable rocker aft to keep the transom from dragging and allow for efficient low speed water flow under the hull. The power version has no rocker aft, for a wide, flat hull suitable for easy planing. So you'd want to decide if you intend to row or troll, or plane with a bigger motor.

[klitz]

Thanks for the response. I don't hear much about Glen L on this site and never hear about Clark Craft kits. I'm not sure why. I plan on using a small motor, maybe even a trolling 55 thrust or a 2hp OB to just put around. I'm not sure which boat would be the best choice for me. The power version of this boat must be capable of a plane. Thanks, Klitz.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

The boat plans industry has gotten bigger and Clark Craft is losing it's niche. A lot of their stuff is old fashioned glue and screw and has been superceded by other designers who concentrate on more modern techniques and newer designs.
Their web site isn't that good either. Clark Craft is a small place on the Niagra River waterfront. They are in a little old wooden building that must have been built before WWI. I'm surprised such a small outfit still has the reach it does.
If you want to see a web site that gives you all the info and then some try;
http://www.bateau.com/ plans
http://forums.bateau2.com/index.php builder's forum
http://www.bateau.com/boats/ pictures of customer's boats

Glue and screw finds favor among those that want a copy of a well proven or visually attractive design from the past. If you are newbie and just want to get onto the water Stitch& Glue is an easier and quicker way to go.
Of course some old timer will come along and say the above isn't true.

[JimD]

Thanks for the response. I don't hear much about Glen L on this site and never hear about Clark Craft kits. I'm not sure why. I plan on using a small motor, maybe even a trolling 55 thrust or a 2hp OB to just put around. I'm not sure which boat would be the best choice for me. The power version of this boat must be capable of a plane. Thanks, Klitz.

Kiltz, with such low power you'd be better off (in my humble opinion) with the rowing version. Wide, flat sterned hulls designed for planing tend to be dogs when they're not planing. I've built a couple Glen-L boats and have mostly good things to say about them even though they don't get much of a nod on this forum. I've also built both framed and stitch and glue. Generally I prefer framed. But that's another story (or rather, a long tedious argument).

[sailnstink]

I think glue and screw is easier and faster. But then I only use epoxy for repairs. YMMV.

[erster]

If you are newbie and just want to get onto the water Stitch& Glue is an easier and quicker way to go.

In most cases this is incorrect. You have presented plans that require a combination of glass and components to make the hulls sound. There is no way that that S*G is easier. You may end up with something that looks like a boat quicker, but there still needs to be a serious attention to details before the boat is proper. Thats the single worse problem with the ideas pressed foward on the particular dedicated site that you frequent and recommend. FOr sure the costs are increases to probably doubled and then some in a 16 footer as an example. The amount of work and the duplicate steps of sand and sand and sand and sand and sand and sand and sand and sand............put on more stuff, sand and then sand in the worse of all corners if indeed you want something nice. The newcomer gets lulled into the notion using color renderings that rarely reflect the time and materials to achieve the finish work.

[Hunky Dory]

I think most people that talk about motor & rowing are usually going to have the motor going and just row once in a while. People that really want to row don't usually consider a motor. But if a 2hp or trolling motor is all you are considering I would go with the row version also. If you are thinking about 5hp or more later on, the power version will row for short spells better than a row version will motor with more power.

[klitz]

Is screw and glue the same as stitch and glue?

[Bill Huson]

Is screw and glue the same as stitch and glue?

No. Screw & Glue refers to boats built by slathering glue on multiple parts and screwing them into place. As in attaching plywood to a framed boat with screws & glue. Stitch & Glue is where one cuts plywood panels to a precise shape, drills small holes (1/16" or 3/32") along the edges about 1 cm in, than one proceeds to "stitch" the panels together with short strips of copper wire. Once stitched and twisted into alignment (known as winding) you proceed to glue all the seams with an epoxy/filler mix using a round edge tool to form a neat radius shape called a fillet to the glue glob. Boat may also require epoxying strips of fiberglass over the fillets, and almost always requires a strip of fiberglass on the outside seam. One advantage of stitch & glue is the lack of frames which makes the boat lighter.

As someone pointed out, S&G is not necessarily faster, and it does use a lot of epoxy($$$). But I like the method for small boats.

[JimD]

I think most people that talk about motor & rowing are usually going to have the motor going and just row once in a while. People that really want to row don't usually consider a motor. But if a 2hp or trolling motor is all you are considering I would go with the row version also. If you are thinking about 5hp or more later on, the power version will row for short spells better than a row version will motor with more power.

This might be a good choice for low power/occassional rowing. Too wide for a dedicated rowboat, though.

[JimD]

Glue and screw means gluing and screwing plywood panels to frames. The framework looks something like this;



Stitch and glue means no frames, more or less, you carefully pre-shape the panels and 'stitch' the edges together:

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

This is a partially completed S&G hull. There is no metal in it. It's all held together with epoxy resin and fiberglass tape. Note all the bulkheads. They are a little excessive in this 8 foot design but they are required to build rigid hull.
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayim...lbum=343&pos=1

[JimD]

... Note all the bulkheads. ...
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayim...lbum=343&pos=1

And since those bulkheads are flimsy, bendy, warpy plywood you may find you have to frame the edges anyway to keep them stiff and straight enough. Which is nice, because then you've got something to screw into

[Bluegill]

Stitch & glue was created for people who do not have the skill to make tight fitting joints. Glue and screw are what real boatbuilders use.

[JimD]

Stitch & glue was created for people who do not have the skill to make tight fitting joints. Glue and screw are what real boatbuilders use.

I would add that epoxy fills gaps extremely well. I personally am not a very good woodworker but do not worry about good fitting joints as the epoxy takes care of that. Don't think I would ever tackle an unglued boat for this reason.

[BrianY]

Stitch & glue was created for people who do not have the skill to make tight fitting joints. Glue and screw are what real boatbuilders use.

I guess that no-talent hack Sam Devlin just pretends to be a "real" boatbuilder...

[erster]

I guess that no-talent hack Sam Devlin just pretends to be a "real" boatbuilder...

The thread was targeted at small boats contrasting the differences of two particular building methods and the resulting work for the completed product. The context does not solely reflect the reasoning for Devlin's builds and his building methods either. His hulls also do not always reflect any measurable weight savings by comparison to like builds in plywood on frame. To be sure the amount of work by comparison does not reflect any real reduction in time in most cases thats put in for the completed hull, comparing apples to apples. I know that I can without a doubt build a plywood on frame that weighs less than some of the more complicated stitch and glue or tape and glue boats and actually end up with more interior space in the smaller boats. Maintainance is probably the area in which a person saves when looking at the tape and glue hulls down the road as long as you actually maintain a sealed composite or cored type boat.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

And since those bulkheads are flimsy, bendy, warpy plywood you may find you have to frame the edges anyway to keep them stiff and straight enough. Which is nice, because then you've got something to screw into

The naval architect who designed it and used it on his bluewater sailboat didn't think it was
"flimsy, bendy or warpy". In fact he regaled his customers with how he use to pile his guests into it to get from anchorage to shore. The designer also claims his free plans for this dink have been downloaded more than 100,000 times (that occures some years back) and there hasn't been any complaints about the absence of woodscrews or lumber to screw them in to.
Since you have been so nice to respond I'll keep your comments in mind the next time I'm doing this;
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayim...bum=343&pos=22

[mspangler]

I just finished building one last spring. the 13.5', standard width model, power model. It's my first attempt at a boat, so I wanted one with a flat bottom so something would be a constant distance from, well, anything.

It's pretty nice. It's a little tippy for the first few degrees of heel, then it steadies out. Putts along nicely on the 4 hp outboard. Rows pretty well too. I do need the trolling motor battery under the forward seat for proper trim. It was a good first project. Easier to build than I thought it would be.

If you are only going to use it with oars or a trolling motor, the narrow beam rowing model would probably be better. I should probably have a 6 HP motor on mine, but since the 4 HP is paid for and I'm not in a hurry, meh.

On the debate between stitch and glue vs conventional approach, I got interested in boat building when I saw a canoe under construction. It was stitch & glue, and seemed to involve endless hand sanding of those inside fillets, then trying to fit the fiberglass tape on smoothly, then more sanding, then more tape, etc. That scared me off.

The chines logs and sheer clamps that are supposed to be overly difficult to shape properly took about 30 seconds each on the table saw. The possibly another minute of tweaking with a power plane. Much easier that what my friend went through.

If you were doing a canoe or other small boat where weight is critical, then you might want to do stitch & glue as that will give you a lighter boat, or at least I suspect it would.

The next boat project is already started, a Minuet. Nothing seems to be a constant distance from anything, which is typical of sailboats. All that's done so far are the frames and stem. Have to wait until spring to get going on that again.

[klitz]

With the Power row skiffs, is wider stiffer? I'm thinking of the wide 13.5 version for xtra space and stability. I'm no expert but need a stiff boat for my not so limber body.

[JimD]

With the Power row skiffs, is wider stiffer? I'm thinking of the wide 13.5 version for xtra space and stability. I'm no expert but need a stiff boat for my not so limber body.

Yes, generally speaking wider is stiffer. There are a lot of variables to consider but in a simple, lightweight, flat bottom craft like this, much of the stiffness comes from buoyancy as the boat leans over to one side, and you can get that from length as well as width. And longer and narrower will get you a better boat.

The 13'6" wide version is 5'7" wide. The standard is 5'1". Since you likely won't be rowing much you may as well build the wide one. But if you had room for it, the 15'6" x 5'1" is the one I'd build. It would be more inclined to slice through the water rather than pound around on top of it.

[mspangler]

Stiffer as in doesn't rock so much, wider would be better. Stiffer as in hull doesn't flex, it would depend on the framing and battens on the bottom. Wider is also more drag, and will need more power. A lot depends on how much weight/cargo you need to carry.

[Cuyahoga Chuck]

On the debate between stitch and glue vs conventional approach, I got interested in boat building when I saw a canoe under construction. It was stitch & glue, and seemed to involve endless hand sanding of those inside fillets, then trying to fit the fiberglass tape on smoothly, then more sanding, then more tape, etc. That scared me off.

.

Whoever was doing those fillets didn't yet have the knack. I fillet and tape in one session. It's called "wet on wet". The fillet is small and struck off with a tongue depressor or some wood with a quarter sized radius on the end . Any crumbs on the edges are lifted with a putty knife. Tape goes on and is wetted out with straight epoxy. The only sanding that must be done is to feather-edge the glass tape so it doesn't show thru' the paint. It is possible to shear the selfedge off the tape with a sharp chisel if you do it before the epoxy is fully hardened but hard enough so you don't lift the tape.
Stitch and Glue like other mechanical techniques has a learning curve. But it isn't steep and the results are worth the effort. Neatness while building pays off with less sanding.
Sorry you were bummed out by what you observed.

[JimD]

The naval architect who designed it and used it on his bluewater sailboat didn't think it was
"flimsy, bendy or warpy". In fact he regaled his customers with how he use to pile his guests into it to get from anchorage to shore. The designer also claims his free plans for this dink have been downloaded more than 100,000 times (that occures some years back) and there hasn't been any complaints about the absence of woodscrews or lumber to screw them in to.
Since you have been so nice to respond I'll keep your comments in mind the next time I'm doing this;
http://gallery.bateau2.com/displayim...bum=343&pos=22

I have no idea what you're talking about. In fact it looks to me like this builder has done exactly what I referred to. That is to attach lengths of wood to stiffen and straighten the plywood bulkhead and use as attachment points. Here, from the link you provided:





And this: http://www.bateau.com/boats/HB18/slides/HB18_Stringer2.html

Look at this bulkhead and you can see that it has been framed all the way around. Its often much more practical to do this sort of hybrid construction rather than pure stitch and glue. Quite common, actually:

[klitz]

I didn't mean to start any sort of fight. I really appreciate the input from both sides of the fence, it is helpful and it sort of reminds me of our politicians. Thanks, Klitz.

[JimD]

I didn't mean to start any sort of fight. I really appreciate the input from both sides of the fence, it is helpful and it sort of reminds me of our politicians. Thanks, Klitz.

klitz, I'm going to send you a Private Message. Totally non hostile, I promise