William Atkin's Eric Junior?

[PeterSibley]

Does anyone have any experience of an Eric Jnr ? I know she would be small, verging on cramped but what are the sailing and sea keeping qualities ? Does she hobby horse with her very evenly balanced ends ? She's a lovely little thing and I keep coming back to the design.

[David G]

I've stared at Eric Jr. many times. If one wants a sweet, compact keelboat... I think he's a good choice. I don't think he'd hobbyhorse. He's not quite bi-transversely symmetrical. Slightly broader at the aft, and finer in the bow. Add in the slightly aft location of the external ballast... well, maybe one of our designers or NA's will come along and correct me, but that'd be my impression.

Seems to me she'd be a lovely size for two. But, then... I'm 5' - 6" and my sweetie is an even 60". And she looks to be a swift and joyful sailor for her size.






Oh... I've not bought the plans to peruse... but the other thought I'd always had was that engine access might be tight. If using an inboard - which I likely would - I might need to take steps to ease access.

And I always though I might want to install a pair of small portlights to visually break up the forward wall of the trunk cabin.

[PeterSibley]

Hi David , well I'm a mere 5'7'' but as she has a max headroom of 4'8'' it doesn't really matter .It's either full headroom or not ! I'm looking at smaller and smaller boats these days, potential uses have changed and smaller means easier handling and cheaper all around .

[David G]

Hi David , well I'm a mere 5'7'' but as she has a max headroom of 4'8'' it doesn't really matter .It's either full headroom or not ! I'm looking at smaller and smaller boats these days, potential uses have changed and smaller means easier handling and cheaper all around .

Peter,

Indeed.

My fantasies about a next boat don't allow for a keel. I want something trailerable without a major set-to. Local waters are fine, but limited, and with Puget Sound only 2 hours away by freeway... I want to be able to travel North if the mood strikes. Or... even haul the boat to the mouth of the Columbia (also about 2 hrs.) and explore the estuary. Beachable and shallow draft would be good in boat locales.

But... if my fantasies allowed for a keel, Eric Jr. would be right up toward the top of the list.

[PeterSibley]

I intend to build an 18 foot Selway Fisher JIM canoe yawl starting this year, she will be a trailer boat and very good for a few days cruising but I still dream of a boat that is blue water capable ...but small and traditionally beautiful.

[skaraborgcraft]

I love double-enders and like Eric Junior also.Having said that,she is tiny,and has not much more room over a Nordic Folkboat.My Koster K25 is very slightly bigger in the beam,but also has very low headroom. Both boats are trailered for launching,but only once a year,i wouldnt recommend EJ as a regular trailer cruiser. No doubt though she would make an offshore capable single-hander.I concluded the 28ft Inga would be a better build. Look forward to the little Jim build thread Peter.Cheers

[Brumenschenkel]

While were on Atkin double enders lets talk Jabberwock. The boat that is, at 26', 2' of draught and her 7'-6" beam allows for highway access and her accommodations sport 5' under the companion slide. The design has been haunting me again. Like many I stare and dream at her profile and plan. Like many I fantasize about the wild blue but realize that shoe cruising is the reality. I would want to change the rig, and add a tabernacle for ease of getting underway off a trailer. Lately I have been pondering how to build her economically, using local lumber and traditional methods. I was tossing around the idea of quarter sawn spruce or pine planking impregnated with CPES to stabilize the wood for life on a trailer. Her hull form also gives me reason to wonder. What are the implication of that beautiful round bottom, NA's and pundits please chime in! Please excuse the thread drift. http://www.atkinboatplans.com/Sail/Jabberwock.html

[Duncan Gibbs]

Peter, my experience of an Eric Junior down in Hobart was that she was a dog under power (maybe underpowered in this case?) as she hobby-horsed quite significantly. Under sail she was sweet though: Swift & sure and mostly dry, under the full design canvas in 20 knots. Although there were certainly things I would have changed about the setup on that particular boat and I didn't get the experience the full power of the rig as this one also had an extra fores'l. Easy enough for me to pick my way through a crowded mooring field and bring to a full luff bang on the pin.Lovely boat! Really well behaved!

[PeterSibley]

When it comes to cramped a cross between Fenwick Williams Annie ( which strangely enough appears to be extremely close to a 3/4 scale Atkin Eric if you do the numbers! ) and Eric Jnr would be ideal .

[JimD]

There was (and maybe still is) an Eric Jr around here. Some poor fellow spent about 25 years trying to build it in limited spare time, then died and left it to the local maritime centre. It spent a few years there but was eventually finished, so I only ever saw it out of the water. It was everything you'd expect in a little ship from the Atkins. Solid, heavy, minimal, built for sailing and not lounging in.

[stromborg]

"Annie" keeps calling your name Peter. You know what they say about taking tests: Go with your first choice, it's usually right.

Thanks again for the PDF of the lapstrake "Annie"

Steve

[goodbasil]

One of our members has sailed an Eric Jr., to Hawaii (and back). I think it was James. He may chime in and tell you what it was like, with a bit of luck he may tell you how tall he is so you can do a real comparison.

[PeterSibley]

There was (and maybe still is) an Eric Jr around here. Some poor fellow spent about 25 years trying to build it in limited spare time, then died and left it to the local maritime centre. It spent a few years there but was eventually finished, so I only ever saw it out of the water. It was everything you'd expect in a little ship from the Atkins. Solid, heavy, minimal, built for sailing and not lounging in.

This boat Jim ? She's a sweet shape .

[PeterSibley]

One of our members has sailed an Eric Jr., to Hawaii (and back). I think it was James. He may chime in and tell you what it was like, with a bit of luck he may tell you how tall he is so you can do a real comparison.

If it was James I'd very very keen to hear ...I value his opinions .

[James McMullen]

Thanks for the love, Peter!

Yes, I have sailed an Eric Jr., but no, it was not to Hawaii, just locally in the San Juans. The boat itself had come from Hawaii before Andy bought her.

My impressions:
Well behaved, very pleasant and easy motion, even across tide-rips and eddylines.

Not fast--certainly not a "hot" ride-- but not a slowpoke. A cruising boat performance envelope.

It's a full, long keel boat, so she would settle into a groove nicely, and she wasn't twitchy at all, but you did have to steer her all the way through a tack like any full keel boat. She always seemed to have plenty of momentum to carry her way.

A small and cramped. . .errrrr. . .I mean compact and cozy cabin arrangement. Not a whole lot of interior for her size.


I would compare her as being in many ways similar to my own Stonehorse Sloop which is about the same overall size and beam and draft, more or less.
Cockpit size and comfort much bigger in the SH. The EJ had a small bluewater footwell sort of cockpit only.
Usable inside space much roomier in the SH. The flush deck all the way out to the edges is way more ergonomic than the trunk cabin in this size of boat.
Double headsail sloop vs. sloop. More strings to pull, more sails to tweak, and yet simpler and easier reefing strategies.

I think the Eric Jr. is more seaworthy for actual open-water cruising, but I prefer my StoneHorse for myself for my own coastal cruising grounds in the Salish Sea. However, I certainly think the Eric Jr. is also a lovely boat. I don't think I would ever go back to the fin-keeled racer/cruiser type I used to own, I prefer the qualities of these old-style full keel types so much more.

[PeterSibley]

Thanks James ... about as I see her . I've spent a week coastal cruising on a 23 footer of very similar OA and beam so I have a fair idea of the (lack) of room below . I'm looking smaller and smaller these days .. not me , the sorts of boats I can imagine building .I designed ( with lots of help ) my Marie Michon 11 and for the life I was hoping to lead she would have been marvellous but things have changed and I don't think I'll be doing much long distance cruising until I'm in my 70s and then a smaller and more easily handled boat would probably be preferable .

All that said I would still like to feel confident at sea and with an ocean crossing with any boat I build . Appearance rates highly with me, perhaps too highly but such is life. Any boat I build must satisfy me aesthetically. Eric Jnr does although as I noted above in post 9 a bit more meat on her bones would be good but would also probably reduce her performance radically. I don't think a cross between Eric Jnr and Annie exists in this size range.

The only negative I can see at the moment is the relatively small amount of stores that could be carried. She displaces 7000lb and has 3400 pound of ballast outside. There's not much left after the construction and the lightest engine available .

Her rig is not something I'm completely happy with and it might transform into a gaff cutter .A few more strings to pull ...have to have entertainment !

Thanks for the positive review .

[David G]

James,

That's a nice breakdown.

One thought I had - and remember I've never been aboard an EJ, so am speaking somewhat theoretically - is from the perspective of age. That the raised-deck configuration of a Stone Horse makes for a roomier interior, I have no doubt. At the same time, I know that it also makes the scramble of tasks forward of the cockpit a bit more interesting. It's no big issue for a youngster with the body of a Greek God - like, say.... Yeadon. But for us old, short, fat guys... the lower stepup and spacious runs of side and fore-deck are, I'd expect, easier to navigate esp if rigged with the requisite life-lines.


@Peter - I had the same thought about the rig. Not a lot of room to mess with mast placement, though, if a rig change required this. Adjustments might could be made elsewhere? Masthead jib? Bowsprit & larger/lower jib?

[James McMullen]

If I were going to tweak an Eric Jr.'s rig, I'd yawlify that thing. I think she'd look like a million bucks if you did her up like so:

[PeterSibley]

Yep ,wee bit of calculation and several sheets of paper required on that project .

On another naughty thought ...relating back to the lack of stores carrying ability, which is a real concern . Multiply out all dimensions by 10% would add another 2300 pound of displacement and bring her up to 27' 9''.It would also require about the amount of ballast I have sitting in the shed. About 4500 pound of lead. Displacement up by 33% to 9317 pound. I don't think the aesthetics would be noticeably changed .

[David G]

Yep ,wee bit of calculation and several sheets of paper required on that project .

On another naughty thought ...relating back to the lack of stores carrying ability, which is a real concern . Multiply out all dimensions by 10% would add another 2300 pound of displacement and bring her up to 27' 9''.It would also require about the amount of ballast I have sitting in the shed. About 4500 pound of lead. Displacement up by 33% to 9317 pound. I don't think the aesthetics would be noticeably changed .

It likely wouldn't cost your firstborn to have a NA or designer spec out a new rig for EJ. I like the notion of a yawl, as well. In your neck of the woods, I'd contact John Welsford, or Michael Storer.

[James McMullen]

Mr. Graybeal, I would be more than happy to show you around aboard Phoebe when the opportunity presents. I do not think that getting up on the foredeck of this little boat is particularly challenging, even for those of non-godlike stature. Also, as I have her rigged with a roller furler on the yankee and a downhaul on the stays'l, there actually are no foredeck tasks to speak of once the sail covers have been stowed. Everything can be done from the cockpit or standing in the companionway.

It's really not a very big step in this little boat.



Even the dogs can do it--though they're not supposed to without permission.

[PeterSibley]

Or the charming Ed Burnett who has offered so much excellent advice here .

[PeterSibley]

I can see why you say the Eric Jnr cockpit is better for offshore James. There a lot of capacity there to drain below, but a great setup for the family coastwise.

[James McMullen]

I did have a full-on knockdown, cockpit knee-deep-in-water experience in her back in early October actually. . . . .but she didn't ship a drop down below. I did lose my hat, and by the time we got to Friday Harbor we found that all the beer was shook up and foamy, but other than that I was still pretty happy that she weathered the squall as well as she did.

[PeterSibley]

I stand surprised ...I would have definitely expected a fair amount below .

[James McMullen]

There's a footwell and a big through-transom drain that may be hard to see there. Those side-bulwarks make it look like the actual cockpit volume is much bigger than it really is.

Here's a better shot of the true cockpit volume: just about big enough to hold a sleeping spaniel.

[PeterSibley]

OK , that's deceptive.The photo in post 23 really looks as if the bulwarks contain the whole area, there doesn't seem to be a drain visible that would stop the top of the bulwark being the ultimate height..

[David G]

Mr. Graybeal, I would be more than happy to show you around aboard Phoebe when the opportunity presents. I do not think that getting up on the foredeck of this little boat is particularly challenging, even for those of non-godlike stature. Also, as I have her rigged with a roller furler on the yankee and a downhaul on the stays'l, there actually are no foredeck tasks to speak of once the sail covers have been stowed. Everything can be done from the cockpit or standing in the companionway.

It's really not a very big step in this little boat.



Even the dogs can do it--though they're not supposed to without permission.

James,

I will look for an excuse to take you up on the invitation. There are actually several people/shops in your area I wouldn't mind visiting. Maybe when all the doctoring is done, and I'm still too fried to work, but not too fried to drive. She looks like a lovely boat for a winter sail, a noontime anchor and steaming mug of stew, and a brisk dart home. Do you keep her in the water all winter?

You do realize that the stepup from the side benches, over the tripping... errrrr... belaying pins.... is taller than I am <G>

[Duncan Gibbs]

Here's a better shot of the true cockpit volume: just about big enough to hold a sleeping spaniel.

James, I'll see your sleeping spaniel and raise you a border collie:



Me having fun helming the EJ on the Derwent:



Such a nice boat:



Here's some yawlified versions already done (although those gaff main leaches look 'orrid):

[skaraborgcraft]

Peter,if you are thinking of stretching EJ by 10%, why not stretch Annie by the same amount? I think she would make a better,more comfortable single-hander.

[PeterSibley]

Peter,if you are thinking of stretching EJ by 10%, why not stretch Annie by the same amount? I think she would make a better,more comfortable single-hander.

You are entirely right , it something I've thought about often but the stretching would need to be progressive ? The mid sections are fine but the ends tuck in very quickly and those angle could use considerable relief ...if I express that correctly . IIRC water doesn't like to stick to a surface that is curving at that rate. I'm not expressing this very well but perhaps you can guess what I mean ? So different rates of expansion for different stations .A little complicated .

[Duncan Gibbs]

I think Peter is saying Annie will sail like a brick to windward if the midship sections are also enlarged.

[PeterSibley]

I think Peter is saying Annie will sail like a brick to windward if the midship sections are also enlarged.

Kind of .... .Annie is a 3/4 scale William Atkin Eric or Thistle as close as I can derive it. Not identical but close . Both those boats were safe,strong and slow . If Annie were stretched she would need the ends stretched progressively but definitely no increase in beam. Annie does have full headroom which I have to admit would be great . A stretched version could be a great boat .

[skaraborgcraft]

I hear what your saying Peter,though im not too sure its an issue.Overall station stretching is not very much to get your 10% increase,if anything, it will in my mind ease the curves and aid water flow. I dont see a problem with the midships section. Cheap and easy to make a cardboard model and check the lay of the planks. Of course,its not going to be the same boat anymore,wherever you choose to stretch it. Look at the lines of a Koster K25 if you want a double-ender, slightly less displacement at 3.5 tons,though she would need another strake rove on and a higher coachroof to get headroom.

[JimD]

This boat Jim ? She's a sweet shape .

Not sure if I ever saw it painted

[PeterSibley]

I hear what your saying Peter,though im not too sure its an issue.Overall station stretching is not very much to get your 10% increase,if anything, it will in my mind ease the curves and aid water flow. I dont see a problem with the midships section. Cheap and easy to make a cardboard model and check the lay of the planks. Of course,its not going to be the same boat anymore,wherever you choose to stretch it. Look at the lines of a Koster K25 if you want a double-ender, slightly less displacement at 3.5 tons,though she would need another strake rove on and a higher coachroof to get headroom.

The Koster 25 is an attractive boat . Any idea where I could have a look at her specs and maybe a drawing ?

[skaraborgcraft]

Peter, there was a K25 on the woodenboat rescue site run by one of the members here. I remember the line drawings came up via a google search. Some were built smooth carvel planked and some (like mine) from clinker oak on oak. A good sailer, but with the low freeboard can be a little wet in rough going. I have a bunch of photos if you are interested? Cheers

[PeterSibley]

Peter, there was a K25 on the woodenboat rescue site run by one of the members here. I remember the line drawings came up via a google search. Some were built smooth carvel planked and some (like mine) from clinker oak on oak. A good sailer, but with the low freeboard can be a little wet in rough going. I have a bunch of photos if you are interested? Cheers

I've found quite a few images and a bit of Utube . I really like the hull shape ... the topsides not quite so much .

[PeterSibley]

I have a problem with Eric Junior ! I've just done a materials calculation using the weights of Australian timbers including a light engine and an all chain rode.It all adds up to 3800 pound plus of course the 3400 pound ballast keel. Hmmm ? that adds up to 7200 pound and Eric Junior displaces a designed 7000 pound.

Room for me and a cut lunch !
Such is life with our Australian hardwoods even though I've specified our lightest at 42 pound for planking.

[JimD]

I remember trying to chop some of that hardwood for firewood at a campsite. Bent the axe blade.

[PeterSibley]

It is excellent wood and there is a huge variety but most of it is very heavy by most people's standards . 60 pound per cubic foot is pretty average although the species I would use for planking (rose gum, e.grandis) is only 42 pounds .Very light .

So I have something of a problem...... I wonder if it's solvable using the materials I have. Lighter planking is possible but the structural members would be the 60 pound stuff . The numbers don't seem supportive.

[skaraborgcraft]

I think you need to take the relative strength compared to the lighter species,it may be possible you could reduce the scantlings by a small amount without loss of strentgh. Although not really recommended,you could also shave off some ballast weight to keep the overall displacement the same,depends how comfortable you are about that......some Colin Archer rescue boats had rather small outside ballast keels in proportion to their overall displacement. Maybe Annies greater displacement would suit the availiable timber much better?

[Ed Burnett]

It is excellent wood and there is a huge variety but most of it is very heavy by most people's standards . 60 pound per cubic foot is pretty average although the species I would use for planking (rose gum, e.grandis) is only 42 pounds .Very light .

So I have something of a problem...... I wonder if it's solvable using the materials I have. Lighter planking is possible but the structural members would be the 60 pound stuff . The numbers don't seem supportive.

It is entirely appropriate to modify scantlings with respect to the timber being used. The old Lloyds plank on frame rule has a pretty sensible mechanism for doing this.

Then again, as I mentioned on Duncan's thread, I'm not entirely convinced the ballast ratio on this particular design is realistic anyway.

[JimD]

I think you should forget all about Eric Jr. If I were going to build one of those old Atkin designs, which I wouldn't unless I had a hundred years to do it in, it would be Little Dipper.

[PeterSibley]

I've looked at Little Dipper and I think he tries to pack a bit much in .The angle of the aft buttock lines is too sharp in my view, she would generate a lot of turbulence back there. Possibly if she were stretched a few feet ?

[PeterSibley]

It is entirely appropriate to modify scantlings with respect to the timber being used. The old Lloyds plank on frame rule has a pretty sensible mechanism for doing this.

Then again, as I mentioned on Duncan's thread, I'm not entirely convinced the ballast ratio on this particular design is realistic anyway.

Hi Ed, I missed your post. I've been going back over the calculations and the major difference in weights is the planking . My rose gum will be 42 lb/cft while the white cedar Mr Atkin specifies is 23 lb/cft. I can't get anywhere near that with any Australian timber available these days. We have a 'cedar' but it's horribly expensive in long lengths. The difference in planking weight is around 350 pound. There are a few other differences but nothing major. It would appear that I should have compared materials rather than attempting a total estimate based on my over estimation of material required.

She is looking more possible now !

Ed, if you drop back here, could you comment on the ballast ratio? Mr Atkin specifies 3400lb outside and another 200 lb inside on an overall displacement of 7000 pound.

I'll have a look at my Lloyds but the planking specified is 3/4'', I can't imagine I'd want to go much lighter if I want to hold my caulking. The specified backbone material is long leaf yellow pine, it pretty close to my yellow stringybark. My keel section is a little smaller so the weights would be very close.

[JimD]

I've looked at Little Dipper and I think he tries to pack a bit much in .The angle of the aft buttock lines is too sharp in my view, she would generate a lot of turbulence back there. Possibly if she were stretched a few feet ?

Nah, don't stretch Little Dipper. Build Fore 'n' Aft instead

Little Dipper:



Fore 'n' Aft:



Although I like the rig on LD better. FnA's would be too much trouble

[skaraborgcraft]

Fore n aft is a huge boat in comparison to either eric junior or Annie,a much bigger investment in time,materials and expense, but a cracking sea boat.But if was going to build a boat of such displacement,it would be a venus 28.

[JimD]

I would die before I got the keel built for any of them

[PeterSibley]

Fore'n'Aft is a big boat Jim, 20,000lb. I'm looking for something as small as possible now .