Antipodean Boats Connection

[The Bigfella]

There's half a million licenced water puppies and a quarter of a million registered boats in this state. At $50 a year for licences, that's $25 mil.... Lets call it an average drag of $200 each on the boats, (moorings, rego, etc), that's another $50 mil. OK, let's run a database for moorings. I'll do that for $1 mil a year. Let's run 20 BSO's at $250k each including costs... that's $5 mill. No licence renewals... just a training program and lifetime certification.... I'll run that for $500 per new licence (call it 25,000 a year).... say $12.5 mil. OK, I'm charging the gubbies 1 + 5 + 12.5..... $18.5 mil a year. Oh dear... there's a ripoff of about $57.5 mil a year if my numbers make sense.

You vote for em.... get em to do your bidding. Tell them to stop the ripoff.

[Portland]

I pay around $70 a year for the mooring , and that was all I had to pay. It includes maintenance on the mooring , and putting it in in the first place.
But I had to produce proof to the shire that the boat is registered , and insured.
The insurance by the local "BOAT" group suffices , and that is about $40 a year.
We have our own insurance on the boat as well.
Rob J.

[WX]

There's half a million licenced water puppies and a quarter of a million registered boats in this state. At $50 a year for licences, that's $25 mil.... Lets call it an average drag of $200 each on the boats, (moorings, rego, etc), that's another $50 mil. OK, let's run a database for moorings. I'll do that for $1 mil a year. Let's run 20 BSO's at $250k each including costs... that's $5 mill. No licence renewals... just a training program and lifetime certification.... I'll run that for $500 per new licence (call it 25,000 a year).... say $12.5 mil. OK, I'm charging the gubbies 1 + 5 + 12.5..... $18.5 mil a year. Oh dear... there's a ripoff of about $57.5 mil a year if my numbers make sense.

You vote for em.... get em to do your bidding. Tell them to stop the ripoff.

Imagine how many moorings and marina berths would be freed up if we got rid of all the mooring minders and boats rotting in berths.

[The Bigfella]

I'll do that for another $1.5m a year. You guys can share the $55m I just saved you all.

btw.... I've actually done this before in another (formerly) gubby area. I had 250 staff (at the time... now 500, because I set it up to go national) saving you a fortune compared to the previous setup. Yep... did the job for 1/4 what it cost with gubbie staffing. There's probably hundreds of these scenarios out there.... and we pay for it.

Meanwhile..... I'm trying to rationalise my travel schedule and it has proven to be "fun". I've got 6 flights booked (and paid for) at the moment. Some slight problems there... I'll be in Indonesia when I'm supposed to be flying from Thailand to Oz... and so on, but.... I'll get it all sorted - hopefully.

[WX]

Well it's been a busy day and my eyes are going blurry...time for sleep.
BTW I now have a checkerplate deck on the tray of the Hilux now.

[The Bigfella]

Well it's been a busy day and my eyes are going blurry...time for sleep.
BTW I now have a checkerplate deck on the tray of the Hilux now.

Sorry... this is the woodenute forum.... you'll have to leave

[WX]

I tried a wooden ute and it wooden work anymore.

Another rainy day...at least it's not cold.

[skuthorp]

14 and still here, 35 and a raging northerly forecast later. Wood you believe it?

[WX]

I wood love a real one of those Jeff. That is pretty neat though, very nice work.

[Typhoon]

A trailer for a boat like a Dragon takes most of it's load on the keel pad and distributes it directly to the leaf spring perches, so the load doesn't have to travel far along the frame, so they "look" lightly built.
All the rest of the trailer does is support the hull against lateral, acceleration and braking forces, plus keep the axles in line with the towbar.
There are two types of electric brake systems, one is a breakaway system, which operates like a kill switch on an outboard or PWC, lanyard attached to tow vehicle, if lanyard pulls switch, electric brakes activate on trailer and stop trailer independently.
Electric service brakes use a controller mounted to the vehicle (near driver) and control brakes through the controller, sensing brake light application and inertia on some better models. They also allow independent application of trailer brakes, and adjustment of braking force from the trailer brakes, both a very nice thing to have.
Unless the vehicle has been specifically wired up for either braking system, it will not have the capability to run it. There will be no live power in the trailer plug for a breakaway system and no power and earth for the trailer brakes.
You MUST have either surge brakes (cable or mechanically operated) on any trailer with a TARE over 750kgs and you MUST have a breakaway system on trailers over 2000kg GVM.
Many people tow without trailer brakes or brakes that are poorly adjusted, but all it takes is an emergency braking situation and it's all over red rover.
I would say 80-90% of all larger trailers out there have poor, no or badly set up brakes, or no means of controlling braking from the cabin, or do not comply with the relevant regulations.
Also, just because a vehicle claims to have a 3 tonne towing capacity in the handbook, doesn't mean it does. The rating on the towbar is the only rating that matters, and it WILL be lower then the handbook. The handbook will also specify that trailer brakes MUST be used when towing such a load, or warranty will be void, and they do it for a very good reason. If you've never experienced brake fade, well, I hope you never do....
Consider this- as an example, the Triton has nice powerful front discs and drum rear brakes, on a 1600-1700kg car. You are proposing adding 2200/2700kg of extra mass to this vehicle, and all the braking you are adding is a pair of 10" drums on the trailer. Even with the trailer brakes perfect, they won't do a hell of a good job. Then consider pulling a 3800/4400kg combination up using just the tow vehicle's brakes. Sure, it'll do it, but you have nothing left for emergencies.
Yes, I'm trying to scare you, I've seen the results of a "she'll be right" approach, not that I'm saying that is your approach, I'm just saying don't take any of it lightly.

I keep trying to call the trailer owner to find out more about it, but no response so far. I've just tried calling the Dragon Assoc' secretary to see if he knows anything. Also no response. I would assume that the electric braking system has it's own battery, as required under NSW rego' rules, and operates through the brake light system as suggested. I note in the RTA blurb the system is required to operate without a controller, and that the installation of a controller won't inhibit the operation of the dual circuit braking. I can only go on what the owner has said that the flat seven pin plug is what the braking system works from. He's towed his Dragon down the Vic and back on this trailer.

I note that the Etchell is only 200kg lighter that the Dragon and the trailer I saw that carried the YNSW CEO's Etchell up from Sydney was just a 'light' looking as the shown in the shots of the trailer from Hobart.

Either all these guys who say the trailers are fine are having a lend and the issue is being overcomplicated here, or we're in the doo-doo.

Either way Rick, I'll let you know in advance. It may well be that the best option, whichever trailer you use, is to borrow a good sized diesel 4WD to haul the timber back as it is still quite heavy.

[Portland]

I have a new Triton Double cab , and I tow a boat that weighs around 1800 kg , plus a fairly strong trailer http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ight=Huon+Seal .
As far as this type of ute goes , it has good power , and the brakes are strong , but as Typhoon says , hope you never have to really test them towing a heavy boat.
HS tows pretty well , she sits low in the trailer being a centreboarder , on her long keel , but under brakes , being such a long trailer , there is a fair bit of weight transfer to the tow ball.
And there is the problem , again , as alluded to by Typhoon .
I would imagine that the tow assembly is up to spec. , but the Triton double cab has quite a long overhang , get it out of line under heavy braking , and you will know about it.
It is a good tow vehicle , except for that overhang , particularly with a long trailer. But I prefer to tow with the old Canter Camper.
Its slower , and harder work , but it just sits so well on the road.
Its tow assembly is sprung , and it has an effective engine brake.
That is a godsent , it helps to wash off a lot of speed , and keeps things straight. And it weighs as much as the trailer/boat.
Just presenting the facts , as I know them.
Regards Rob J.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Thanks for the responses guys! The fella with the trailer says all he has is the seven pin plug and a controller in the cabin.

I'm not sure if the trailer has the surge or breakaway systems, but I would be assuming it would have one or the other (prolly the breakaway) to pass muster with the RTA.

When you say:

Unless the vehicle has been specifically wired up for either braking system, it will not have the capability to run it.

Does this mean that Rick won't be able to fit a controller to his vehicle, or is it just a bit more work to get it up to scratch?

We're no proposing to do anything else but take it very easy coming back up with an overnight stop at a mate's place in Sawtell. The trip down will be a synch, sans trailer and boat, at about 8 to 9 hours, 10 to 11 including breaks. I'm assuming we'll double that figure with the boat behind us. If we take it easy and don't push either the tow vehicle or trailer hard then we'll make it nicely.

[rufustr]

I have always used the mechanical override system and kept it properly adjusted.

I think the controller in the car has to match the system fitted to the trailer, and I wouldn't assume that all systems are compatible.

Towing a wide heavy load is an acquired skill, and I never lend my trailer because it has come home with damaged mudguards twice.

Anticipation is the key especially in the wet, and i have developed huge respect for heavy vehicle operators.

[The Bigfella]

If it rains while you are towing it, give your brakes a bit of a test. You might find it "interesting".

[johnno]

Does this mean that Rick won't be able to fit a controller to his vehicle, or is it just a bit more work to get it up to scratch?

One thing I definitely ain't is a mechanic, but I do have a caravan which requires a brake controller in the car for the caravan brakes to operate. I have had two different cars since I bought the caravan and I have simply picked the brake controller I liked and had it fitted. I assume for the brakes on my caravan to work, they need an electrical impulse, which must be standard across different controllers. I seem to remember it was around $500 for the controller. I had a Tekonsha recommended to me..around $180 or something like that for mine. They make different models so presumably there might be different models for different brake systems on the trailer.

[RFNK]

What I want to hear is that this bloody trailer has mechanical braking and I can just be careful not to put tooooo much wood on it, drive in the rain or go very fast.

Rick

[purri]

IIRC the makers plate started abt 1988 due to trailer boat theft and their interstate resale. It's frankly a load of and requires a daggy piece of alloy screwed on the transom, internal timber or similar. There was a list of "recommended installers" but I am yet to comply and with non trailerables esp timber craft the matter may have died death by neglect.

[Portland]

One funny story on electric brakes.
I used to work with a bloke who had a ski boat .
His trick was offering a day out skiing , to someone who could tow the boat.
I forget the technicalities , but although the pin sizes were the same , the brake was activated when the driver put on his indicators , the pin had been incorrectly wired .
The mental image still gets a chortle.
Rob J.

[RFNK]

I guess we've all seen it. I can remember a scene on Charlestown Road at the bottom of the (steep) hill where a ute had a very large boat sitting on its tray and an empty trailer behind it. The ute's cabin had a nice new bow shaped groove in it. Every picture tells a story.

Rick

[Duncan Gibbs]

The trailer has electric brakes because that's what's required of it to be registered in NSW due to the total load of both the trailer and boat on it. AFAIKT any controller can be fitted so long as it is suitable to the plug, in this case a flat seven pin, and - as Rob pointed out - is correctly wired.

If you look at the RTA PDF on trailer brakes they recommend strongly against over-run brakes (mechanical arrangements with the sprung draw bar and cables back to the wheels) due to the lag between the braking of the car (or just going down a hill DAMHIK) that might cause a jack-knife type event. With electric brakes this scenario is avoided and the braking system far safer and more efficient.

My thinking on this whole adventure is that it will be a slow and steady trip and I suggest the same for a return with a load of timber on the back. I won't be "testing" anything in the rain. If the going looks bad, we'll pull over and have a cuppa.

[RFNK]

My comment was in response to your Does this mean Rick ..... question. I'll check out controller options next week.

Life was simpler once.

Rick

[Duncan Gibbs]

I've just spoken with another Dragon Association member and he tells me it shouldn't be a problem. Controllers are generic and do not require any type of proprietary matching up. So long as it fits a seven pin plug.

We may yet have an option on another trailer with a hydraulic overrun system, bearing in mind that these types of trailers don't have breakaways AFAIKT.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Life was simpler once.

Small children worked in the mills once too.

[The Bigfella]

Way back when Noah was a lad, I used to work Saturdays at a hire service. The weekend warriors would come in to hire a box, furniture or car trailer. We had all sorts of adaptors (I've got a set here btw... cheap as chips these days)... so we could hook them up to all sorts of different plugs (7 pin flat, 6 and 7 pin round). The number of nongs who turned up in cars that weren't wired right was amazing. They were nothing compared to some of the idiots that hired chainsaws though.

[m2c1Iw]

Phew I nearly got sucked into posting on one of the Schooner threads.........but I've resisted.

Looks like Dragons are all the rage to play with how do you think a centreboard conversion would go I've only got 4' to play with in my pond.

[The Bigfella]

Phew I nearly got sucked into posting on one of the Schooner threads.........but I've resisted.

Looks like Dragons are all the rage to play with how do you think a centreboard conversion would go I've only got 4' to play with in my pond.

Why not go canting keel?

[m2c1Iw]

Why not go canting keel?

Nah just musing, down here the restricted 21' are hot even building new ones using modern materials actually saw one for sale at $46,000 bit rich for me hence the fleeting thought about a cheap dragon. http://www.classicwoodenboat.com.au/...acht?showall=1

[Portland]

Jeez , the government must be really scratching to balance the books now.
For quite some time now , my daughters RAAF unit was flatout , setting up for possible deployment.
Now , as of today , they have been advised that they are looking for VOLUNTARY REDUNDANCIES , and if they don't get the numbers , then whoever gets the short straw , is out of the service !.
Seems strange to me !.
Rob J.

[Portland]

Just got a message on the pager (CFA cap) , its a TFB day tomorrow .
But hopefully rain on Monday.
Rob J.

[Duncan Gibbs]

You can have some of our rain Rob!

Mike: Get a Dragon! Ian's got one, I'm getting one, and as Rick pointed out, it is the Year of The Dragon and at 3'6" draft you should be fine in the pond!

[The Bigfella]

Grab some depleted uranium and you'd be able to lose 6"

[Phil Y]

I had one (dragon) only sold it cos i came up here.

[johnno]

Rufus, Greg,
still all good for tomorrow 12.30ish. I've rebuilt the building platform (shortened it by two metres), so now we can turn it over and not have the bow and stern hit the fore and aft portions of the old platform. It's all stayed dry in the shed despite the rain. I've got lots of soft pads, and I did an experiment with my model which seems to make it look pretty straight forward for the four of us. The fridge is stocked with beer (light and ordinary), there's salad, plus onion, sausages and spicy chicken for the barbie

[rufustr]

Mike and I are organised John.

I'll confirm with you in the morning.

Who knows how much rain we'll get out of this system tonight.

[Duncan Gibbs]

I had one (dragon) only sold it cos i came up here.

I forgot about that one. Why'd you go and do a silly thing like that? IIRC yours cost less than mine.

[johnno]

Who knows how much rain we'll get out of this system tonight.

Thanks Rufus. Radar seems to show it moving a bit north but it's been back and forth all day.

[PeterSibley]

Good luck John, I hope it all goes smoothly ! Sorry not to have caught up yet but we will.

[johnno]

Good luck John, I hope it all goes smoothly ! Sorry not to have caught up yet but we will.

Thanks for the thought Peter..I'm sure we'll be fine if we just go slowly..it's not that big or heavy afterall, just a bit of a restricted place to do it in. Sounds as though I might miss the EBS at Duncan's if it's on the 17th..wife is travelling that day.

[skuthorp]

Rain, a distant hope here. 34c today, 37c tomorrow but probably a bit less here. Rain forecast monday but as time goes on they seem less confident.
Had a good celebratory day today, in the waves from 1 till 5 with just a break to peruse the geography of the beach, and some very nice geography it was too if a little sunburned. Friendly too mostly. Water about 20c it seems, way too warm if you ask me. The beach doesn't change. Hot tonight in spite of all the sliding doors open, no sea breeze yet.
This Dragon move sounds a bit on the edge, take a lot of care you lot.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Damn John! I was really looking forward to a re-acquaintance! Wife going or arriving? Maybe you could make it down here after?

My best wishes for the big flip! I'm sure it'll go smoothly.

[johnno]

Damn John! I was really looking forward to a re-acquaintance! Wife going or arriving? Maybe you could make it down here after?

My best wishes for the big flip! I'm sure it'll go smoothly.

Yep, I know, it's a bugger. She's heading off to China that day, around midday or so, and who knows when it will actually be given delays etc.

[Duncan Gibbs]

Then you should be able to make it! I'm an hour and 20 minutes away going by Sunday midday traffic from the airport. A cold one will await you, along with some slow cooked BBQ chicken, as well as a jovial bunch of fellas (and our better halves)!

It's settled!

[skuthorp]

Way down here Duncan it'll be prawns, salads and beer too so I'll raise a glass in your direction.

[The Bigfella]

I'll chuck down a Bintang on the Bromo volcano.... and nod in your general direction

[johnno]

[QUOTE=Duncan Gibbs;3318394 an hour and 20 minutes away going by Sunday midday traffic from the airport [/QUOTE]
It's Saturday the 17th thought right..not Sunday (getting confuzzled now)

[Duncan Gibbs]

Ooops! Yup! Saturday...

Oily dementia onset? Too much bucolic air? Too much rain? Too many thoughts about Dragons?

Any and all of the above, and a few more thrown in for good measure. Better make it down here John before I'm a total lost cause!

[skuthorp]

Here's another one Duncan.
Rob's forecast is 40c today, only 34 here. Surprised the difference ad he's right on the coast too.
Entertaining today but late afternoon I'll get to the beach again, 6ft swells, yummy!

[WX]

Morning Jeff...yet another drizzly day here and I'm suffering from sinus and a slight hangover.

[skuthorp]

Morning Gary. Hot here till a change on monday, muggy too as the air is tropical.
I have to be careful with red wine these days as the preservative in most cheaper bottles fires up my sinus headaches too. Only drink the good stuff! I seem to have discovered the joys of the surf again, I might look at a newer board even. Water is unusually warm, around 20c. I was in for 4 hours yesterday without a suit and didn't get at all cold.

[Phil Y]

I forgot about that one. Why'd you go and do a silly thing like that? IIRC yours cost less than mine.

I paid $700, sold it for $1500, but then mine was Huon.