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Thread: Antipodean Boats Connection

  1. #11586
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Peter I have an opportunity for you to redeem yourself following your utterance elsewhere. Quite separate from my mad business idea, my number one son has decided to offer his services escorting visitors from out of town on bike rides-he's a keen road cyclist and knows all the good hills, routes etc. Reckons he can get paid for doing what he loves. He needs to be able to get to his customer's place-probably a city hotel or whatever, on his own bike, and with a bike for the customer. I have a design in my head for a little bracket which would fit each side of Sam's back wheel-attached by the quick release axle thingy. On one side, a bracket which essentially goes to an old front hub, with a quick release axle in it. The towed bike's forks go in here sans front wheel. The towed bike gets horizontal flexibility from the ability of the axle to move within the hub, and lateral flexibility from its stem. Flexibility? Articulation. On the other side of Sam's bike, a small riser, at maybe 45 degrees backward, and on the end of that a U shaped thing, replicating the end of a set of forks. The towed bike's front wheel, which has been removed, fastens into that. I think I need an opinion and a drawing and some engineering definition. Patent pending.
    Another way would be to pull the second bike's front wheel, ocky strap it onto it's frame then move the second bikes forks forward over the rear wheel of your son's first bike, the prime mover. I'd imagine a bracket mounted on a touring carrier to hold the stem of the second bike. More shock cord.

    I think our ideas are pretty similar so I guess I stand unredeemed !

    Something like this but a little closer in .

    I wish I'd had half your son's ideas when I was his age .

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  2. #11587
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    a bruce brew
    that's just gone into the vernacular
    Larks

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  3. #11588
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    Masina's engine is mounted under the cockpit, so the flywheel is right up against the companionway bulkhead. The bulkhead has a hole in it so the crank goes through to the flywheel. No chance of catching the flywheel with fingers - just every chance of breaking a thumb with the handle, I expect. I haven't looked at how to decompress the engine while this is being attempted but I'm assuming it's a two-person operation, unless it's possible to crank it over and then jump out of the cabin, jump into the cockpit locker and hit the decompression lever while the engine comes to life? Don't laugh too hard - I've never done this! The last time I cranked an engine I was in the rain, in pyjamas and riding boots trying to get my Hillman Husky out of the way of my father's car so that he could go to work .... Lucky I had the boots on, or I'd have broken my toes encouraging the car to start.

    Rick
    My Old Contessa 32 had a frequently hard to start Bukh 20. I seem to remember activating decompression lever with my left hand winding up to pre starting speed ,then letting go of decompression lever and cranking hard with both hands. The decompression lever would not engage immediately allowing me possibly half a revolution then putting your shoulders into it ,engine generally started on the second or third compressed revolution. In cold weather ether also helps ,also not very good for engine. Bukh 24 will probably be similar Rick if you are wanting to try it out do so when engine is warm.

  4. #11589
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Re starting engines, years ago I asked a local auto electrical place about mechanical starter motors, I'm reasonably sure that Lucas or CAV made a spring starter. I haven't done any internet research on this. Probably rare as and only for specific engines, assuming English. I used to service a Coventry forklift many years ago that had an airstart and airtank. There was some means of pumping up the tank (other than the air compressor on the engine) but cannot recall what that was. I like the thought of a mechanical means of starting a small diesel in case of a flat battery.

    Cheers
    the invisible man........

  5. #11590
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    An air start would be a great backup along with a set of bicycle cranks on a compressor . Shudder ! But it would work and you could insist the person who drained the battery do the pedalling !

    Actually it might be very good as a primary start method too.

    IIRC Paladin (Chuck) posted details of an recoil start for a diesel once, perhaps someone with better Google skills than me can find it?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  6. #11591
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I think I'll try the crank first.
    Rick

  7. #11592
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    It would sound like a Kenworth starting up ! WWWWUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUP!!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  8. #11593
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    Tauranga is a bloody good substitute for Queensland Mitziel.
    It may be but I'm not in Tauranga, its just the nearest big smoke. But thanks all the same, its good to know and saves me an airfare

  9. #11594
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Yep, Mum came from Tauranga a very long time ago .I doubt she'd recognise it .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  10. #11595
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    There does seem t be a bit of a knack to hand starting a diesel in the 25 to whatever hp range. When we were in Moresby 15 or whatever years ago I did an overnight race on a boat with a diesel around that size, big flywheel. Not sure of the brand, it was red. battery went flat overnight and we needed to start the motor to recharge. Couple of big blokes on the crew had a go and it defeated them. I offered to give it a whirl, people either laughed or ignored me, as I'm not the biggest bloke ever made. So I got in there, did the decompression lever, spun up the flywheel, let the lever go at just the right moment and she fired right up. Nice.

  11. #11596
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Red with a big flywheel? Sounds like a Bukh! I intend to practice.
    Rick

  12. #11597
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I have heard it can be nasty if your timing is a bit off and it doesn't quite keep going through the compression stroke. You need a certain level of commitment, to be sure.

  13. #11598
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Drop the valve lifter AFTER TDC.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  14. #11599
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  15. #11600
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    I like that!!! I've seen and used back up air compression starters, which someone mentioned above, and which can take up a bit of space, but I haven't seen one of these before (or at least I don't think I have anyway...). It wouldn't be too hard to find the space for one of these on a boat.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  16. #11601
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I like it too! I wonder how much they cost?

    If there's no marking for TDC on the flywheel, how can you tell when it's at TDC?

    Rick

  17. #11602
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    The forecast last weekend for today had winds of around 60 knots ripping into Auckland. Happily, I see that it didn't eventuate! Don't worry about that reef JB!

    Not sure that I'd want to be sailing down below WA today though! And a good weekend, coming up ...... for Rob to have HS in his shed!

    Rick
    Last edited by RFNK; 08-13-2013 at 06:31 PM.

  18. #11603
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    So many nifty things. Looks like those spring starters replace the electric starter motor. Probably not an ideal solution, I quite like the whole push button thing. With my generators and jump starters, and a solar panel and a wind generator (which will get the job done more slowly) I reckon I'm fine. Once I tidy up the wiring (anyone want to buy several metres of really heavy copper cable??), and put in a VSR I'll be almost bullet proof. I did replace 3 of my 4 batteries earlier this year, as it did turn out that the "new" ones were dead when I finally put a decent battery tester on them.

    I remember when I was a much younger lad we had a lawnmower at home with a spring start instead of the usual pull cord-you wound it up with a folding handle on top of the motor, flicked the catch, and hoped it had enough oomph to start the motor. Many many times. Eventually it would start.

    Of no relevance at all really, we also once had an old D2 Caterpillar crawler tractor. That had a 2 cylinder petrol motor, which you started with a pull cord, which you could then engage with a clutch mechanism to turn the main motor over. Seemed like a hell of a complicated way to start a motor-but the tractor had no battery, no electrics, other than a magneto for the starter motor.



    I found a write up of the starting procedure---

    Firstly,check that you have water/ antifreeze in the rad cap.The donkey engine uses the same water as the diesel engine.
    Check that you have lubricating oil in the Diesel and donkey engines.
    Check that you have enough petrol in the tank for the donkey engine.It is always best to fill the tank as some tanks have a tube that comes up into the tank by an inch or so,this can fool the operator that you have enough petrol in the tank when in fact the petrol level is below the feed tube.
    Before I start the donkey engine,I open drain cocks on cylinders and turn over engine a couple of revs with ignition "OFF"
    Turn on petrol tap,ignition switch to "ON" donkey engine throttle half way out,choke "on" Diesel engine throttle in "STOP"
    Wrap the starting rope around the donkey engine flywheel groove.
    Give it a shap pull,but make sure that no one it behind you as you will whip them
    With luck the engine usually starts after a couple of pulls.Let donkey engine run for 30 seconds or more in half throttle
    On the diesel engine's left hand side,put lever to "START" position.
    This is infact a decompressor lever.
    Again on the left side of the machine,push the pinion clutch lever towards the rear of the machine and lift up the smaller lever which engauges the drive gear.
    Push the starting clutch lever towards the front of the machine,the diesel engine will now rotate.Put donkey to max throttle speed
    I rotate the engine for a minute or so,the oil presure builts up.
    I then put the start lever to "RUN" for a couple of minutes,but with diesel throttle shut off.This warms up the cylinders and the engine water.Depending on the temperature,on a cold day I run it for about three minutes in that position.
    Open the diesel throttle,the engine should now fire and start to rev.The drive gear will drop out automatically as the diesel engine speeds up.
    The donkey engine will run still.Turn off the petrol tap to stop the donkey engine and not the ignition switch.
    You may get fuel in the lubricating oil of the donkey if you just turn off the ignition switch.
    To stop the diesel
    If the machine has been worked hard,cut down the engine revs prior to stoping the diesel,alowing the diesel engine to cool down at an even rate.Always have the clutch lever in engauged position and in neutral when not in driving seat.

  19. #11604
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I like it too! I wonder how much they cost?

    If there's no marking for TDC on the flywheel, how can you tell when it's at TDC?

    Rick
    If you have 3 or 4 cylinders one or the other will be just past TDC. For me it was just a matter of momentum and commitment-and I think dropping the decompression lever when my cranking arm was on the upstroke-flick the lever, really put your heart and soul into the crank and make sure the thing keeps turning. I may be wrong but I think you need to turn the engine through a compression stroke in order for it to go bang inside and keep going. I may be respectfully disagreeing slightly with Peter here.

  20. #11605
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection



    Hmmm. If decomp lever is closed before TDC and the flywheel doesn't have sufficient momentum to carry it past TDC it will bounce backward... which is not good . I'm not sure if it would fire, the compression probably wouldn't be enough ( that nastiness usually happens on spark ignition engines).

    So you want it as close to TDC and as fast as possible to carry it past after the compression arrives.

    Do not wrap your thumb around the crank handle, develop a cupped palm grip. DAMHIKT

    All my experience has been on single cylinder engines, what Phil say about multi pots is very likely so .

    The Spring Start mechanism looks as if it's something you keep in a box until an emergency arises then you pull it out and engage it with the ring gear of your engine using the cunning mounting bracket you have already installed.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  21. #11606
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Of course you can always do a hill start. I did that once in my Tumlaren which had a little Blaxland Pup, got a bit of the surfing going down a wave on a nice reach with a kite up, and suddenly the engine kicked into life!

  22. #11607
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    The Bukh is apparently known particularly for having a big, heavy flywheel. This ought to make cranking easier, shouldn't it? I'd have thought that I could sort of get it spinning and then just drop the lever when I'm worn out. Holding the crank handle with fingers only, of course! A good plan?

    Any idea what those spring things cost?

    We had one of those spring starters on a lawnmower when I was a kid. I think it was quite a humble thing by the time we rendered it suitable only as a wheel source for billy carts.

    Rick

  23. #11608
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post



    The Spring Start mechanism looks as if it's something you keep in a box until an emergency arises then you pull it out and engage it with the ring gear of your engine using the cunning mounting bracket you have already installed.
    From the springstart website-

    Kineteco’s starters are very simple and affordable, making hand
    starting the smart option on a wide range of machinery. Fitting is
    easy. Just remove the electric starter and its connectors and bolt on
    the Spring Starter. Perfect as an emergency back up in a boat’s
    locker, in case of trouble with the battery, starter, alternator or wiring.
    Excellent as a primary starter for a whole host of uses where you
    never want to be faced with a dead engine again

  24. #11609
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    The Bukh is apparently known particularly for having a big, heavy flywheel. This ought to make cranking easier, shouldn't it? I'd have thought that I could sort of get it spinning and then just drop the lever when I'm worn out. Holding the crank handle with fingers only, of course! A good plan?


    perfect.

  25. #11610
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    The Bukh's flywheel momentum is certainly noticeable. When we switch the engine off, we need to keep the ignition hard off for quite a while while the engine runs down. If there's still the slightest movement left, it starts again when we let the key back to the running position.

    Rick

  26. #11611
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    From the springstart website-

    Kineteco’s starters are very simple and affordable, making hand
    starting the smart option on a wide range of machinery. Fitting is
    easy. Just remove the electric starter and its connectors and bolt on
    the Spring Starter. Perfect as an emergency back up in a boat’s
    locker, in case of trouble with the battery, starter, alternator or wiring.
    Excellent as a primary starter for a whole host of uses where you
    never want to be faced with a dead engine again
    Oh dear flat batteries , unbolt inaccessible bloody electric starter, bolt on 19 kg spring loaded thingo, light blue touch paper while holding breath, crossing fingers and praying to the patron saint of small diesel engines . Smile.


    donka, donka, donka, donka, donka, donka .
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  27. #11612
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    From the springstart website-

    Kineteco’s starters are very simple and affordable, making hand
    starting the smart option on a wide range of machinery. Fitting is
    easy. Just remove the electric starter and its connectors and bolt on
    the Spring Starter. Perfect as an emergency back up in a boat’s
    locker, in case of trouble with the battery, starter, alternator or wiring.
    Excellent as a primary starter for a whole host of uses where you
    never want to be faced with a dead engine again
    So, to use it, you take the starter motor off and install the spring thing in its place? Not quite the thing when you're about to ram Phil's new cement boat then! But certainly handy to have if you're stuck in doldrums on the GBR with a cyclone forecast.

    Rick

  28. #11613
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I think they are really designed for permanent installation, and useful at remote sites on pumps, gensets etc. A really robust, failsafe approach, but somewhat lacking in convenience on a modern pleasure boat. I can see them doing very well in outback and 3rd world applications.

  29. #11614
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    blowing its guts out here. my new wooden boat remains under a tarp upside down on the front lawn. practising anticipatory poise. not even slightly tempted to see how the boat would behave under jib alone, mainsail lashed down to the boom, two rope drogues off the quarters to haul her back steady. can imagine it though. cockpit half full, rolling with the slosh of it, cold ankles, waiting for the inevitable capsize. staring down the reaper.

    the coffee is warm and very tasty.

  30. #11615
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Warm warm, like hot, but not so as to burn your tongue? Or kind of milky lukewarm??

  31. #11616
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    warm warm. hot enough to regret taking one large gulp, as it makes an uncomfortable descent to the gizzards. hot enough that two gulps in a row are not possible. hot enough to raise the body temperature, but not hot enough to burn the inside of the mouth. winter coffee warm warm, not summer coffee warm.

  32. #11617
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    We have work for you ! It's always too cool in our cafes .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  33. #11618
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Yes, I don't get that luke-warm coffee thing. It's not how coffee-making is taught. There are strict instructions about warming the cups, the temperature the milk must reach, the temp and pressure the water must be at in the boiler, the sequence of the process so as to minimise any standing around and cooling off time. And still people serve insipid, bitter coffee-slop.

  34. #11619
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    That starter would have been ideal half way to Bali!!!

    And for a cruising boat I think it would be a very handy inclusion. I'd say most flat batteries seem to be discovered when you're starting after a period away from the boat (ie off touring) or as in my case when you're in the middle of nowhere and have time to set up such a starter.

    I don't know about anyone else, but I can only remember once ever having to start my engine in an emergency and that was in the middle of the night during a Bali to Jakarta race, when I was off watch and we nearly sailed under an unlit tow barge line. A guardian angel moment....no explanation as to why I woke up but when I did and "felt" something wrong I stuck my head out for a look, just not sure what to look at or what to look for. Strangely the very first place I looked I saw the tow line and unlit barge in the loom of another very near-bye yachts deck lights right in front of us (the other yacht had been sailing along side us for a while about 20 metres off and my mate John had been talking to them while sailing along) - I shouted to the other yacht, who couldn't see anything because he was working under his deck light and his wife was at the helm, to urgently swing hard to port over towards us at the same time that I started the engine, chucked it in full ahead, freed the main and swung the bow around......very fortunately the other yacht heard me and instinctively trusted what I shouted without question and just acted (how often do you think you'd do that without question???).

    Both of us missed getting hooked up in the tow line and therefore run over and sunk by the barge by mere metres - and I mean 2 or 3, not 20 or 30, with the other boats bow about 2 metres off our stern....

    Sorry, didn't mean to make a story out of that, but I've had a couple of those "guardian angel moments" and that was very much one of those "should be dead moments" that I remember quite vividly.

    I really just meant to make a point about emergency engine starts being relatively rare (for me anyway) as most things happen reasonably slowly when you're sailing a cruising yacht and I always start my engine well ahead of any event that looks like I may need it in a hurry, and use it as a time to just let it idle to cool the fridge and charge batteries.

    Oh, and I nearly lost my toe freeing the main trying to kick off the preventer ....... felt that for months
    Last edited by Larks; 08-13-2013 at 08:50 PM.
    Larks

    “It’s impossible”, said pride.
    “It’s risky”, said experience.
    “It’s pointless”, said reason.
    “Give it a try”, whispered the heart.

    LPBC Beneficiary

    "Keep away from people who try to belittle your ambitions. Small people always do that, but the really great make you feel that you, too, can become great!"

  35. #11620
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    A good story Greg. I'm reading "Sheila On the Wind'' at the moment, 1952, an Albert Strange 32 footer coming out from England via Suez, the Red Sea, India , Oz then NZ.... the wrong way in the wrong season .It's got quite a few "guardian angel moments !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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