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Thread: Antipodean Boats Connection

  1. #43681
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Peter you could definitely be onto something with bronze dyneema dead eyes. I suppose you've seen the very good thread on serving dyneema and building a rig with it.


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    I think that thread was titled 'A new rig for Julia, parcelled and served dyneema'.

  2. #43682
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    I know that's true in theory. It's just real life that worries me. I will be glassing the upper side, no faux teak, but there's still a million penetrations. And it's a boat. Things move, cracks develop, water gets in and before you know it you've got a mushroom farm. We've all heard of glass boats with ply or other wood frames and stringers. Fully, completely encapsulated from birth, no penetrations at all, and yet 10 or 20 years down the track they are black slush. Seems to me marine ply is almost by definition unfit for purpose. It meets a standard which is not appropriate to the intended use. Absolutely fine if you want to boil it for 20 minutes, but who does that?
    I'd always use marine ply. But it's mostly about the integrity of the sheathing. Make sure all fastenings are set into epoxy plugs. Not hard to do. Masina's deck is all sheathed ply. 0ver 40 years old, no rot. Not just theory - it's proven practice.

    Rick

  3. #43683
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    If only we could still buy ply manufactured 40 years ago... they made decent ply back then.

  4. #43684
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    There's plenty of good ply available. Just don't buy crap from Bunnings!

    I've never seen a properly sheathed deck rot. I've seen some go where edges of sheathing don't run over gunwales. There are alternatives to doing it that way but it's the only way I'd do it. If the deck is set up so that it will shed all water, how can it rot?

    Rick

  5. #43685
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    From the inside through high internal humidity. I recently helped a friend rebuild his deck, the old one was removed completely. It had rotted from inside.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  6. #43686
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Do you mean 'inside' the actual plywood or just inside the boat?

  7. #43687
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by auscruisertom View Post
    Thanks Liam they look fantastic

    That's to take 6mm wire ? Tom mentioned 12mm dyneema too.

    I am planning to use Dyneema or Lux and since I am officially a pensioner 6mm will have to do, forget the 12 mm Dyneema Peter the splice is above the dead eye.

    I would be extremly honoured to have you cast your version of the above and remember Wee Barkie heritage is working boat so It does not need to look showroom.
    i've 3d printed one and i'll drop into Whitworths tomorrow and see how the hole dimensions go with the rope diameters.
    like Pete i'm a bit stumped as to how to cast it, it would be much easier to machine the groove afterwards somehow. If i were making one myself i'd consider cutting everything from 3 pieces of flat plate and bolting it together, or maybe spot welding it. maybe it could be cast in two parts, with a back and middle, and then a face plate, and then brazed together through some spot weld holes which are filled with weld? the cool thing about them is that the rope is taking all the load, so it's not as if the pressure would cause it to explode.

  8. #43688
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    From the inside through high internal humidity. I recently helped a friend rebuild his deck, the old one was removed completely. It had rotted from inside.
    The only way you could get so much moisture inside that it rots the boat is by having flooded bilges. Boats should have dry bilges. Wooden boats must have dry bilges and good ventilation or they will rot.

    Rick

  9. #43689
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Y'all might want to have a look at this thread: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...building/page2

    Form ply is basically crappy plywood with phenolic sheathing, as I understand it. Go to any building site and you'll find old sheets used for formwork with the faces still fine but the edges breaking down from moisture.

    Treated pine has a lot of moisture in it. I don't know whether it's the treatment or because they treat the wood while it's too green. In any case, take any if it and leave it in the sun and watch what it does. I'd never use it in a boat and especially not a deck. This MDO stuff seems to have potential though - not sure where you'd get it here but it must be available. It looks like Masonite, I think.

    Rick

  10. #43690
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by pelagos View Post
    i've 3d printed one and i'll drop into Whitworths tomorrow and see how the hole dimensions go with the rope diameters.
    like Pete i'm a bit stumped as to how to cast it, it would be much easier to machine the groove afterwards somehow.
    That’s great Liam.

    I agree with machining the groove afterwards with the added bonus of the casting being adaptable to several different rope sizes subject to the thickness of the casting.

    I will run the groove machine part by the guy I normally use.

  11. #43691
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Small boats rock View Post
    If only we could still buy ply manufactured 40 years ago... they made decent ply back then.
    30 years ago I had a 'which boat to buy' conversation with a world famous in NZ boatbuilder who pointed out that lots of the boats built from ply in the 60's were crapping out because the ply technology and awareness of what is right or wrong wasn't there. I've always taken note of that, there's a lifetime, and there's probably a golden age when you could trust BS1088 too.

    Which then leads me to the memory of the time in the early 2000's I found myself standing under a Pied Piper ( Des Townson 22 ft performance boat) at my local haul out yard. It was standing on its keel as you'd expect only there was no bottom in the boat. It had its frames and stringers and sides and deck and all the rest, just no bottom panels at all.
    The owner was there and I commented he had a bit of work on , he replied he 'just came up for an antifoul'. I think that was the first time I became aware of the moaning chair.

  12. #43692
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I'd always use marine ply. But it's mostly about the integrity of the sheathing. Make sure all fastenings are set into epoxy plugs. Not hard to do. Masina's deck is all sheathed ply. 0ver 40 years old, no rot. Not just theory - it's proven practice.

    Rick
    Masinas builder was probably a better carpenter than I am.

  13. #43693
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by MattSplatt View Post
    Do you mean 'inside' the actual plywood or just inside the boat?
    I mean the ply of the deck rotted and the trouble started inside from high humidity. Ventilation and more ventilation is the answer.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  14. #43694
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    The only way you could get so much moisture inside that it rots the boat is by having flooded bilges. Boats should have dry bilges. Wooden boats must have dry bilges and good ventilation or they will rot.

    Rick
    Aha. Since Adrian helped me with my stern gland, I now only have water in the bilge after rain. So in theory, once I have fixed my deck, I will always have dry bilges. In reality, I don't believe that for a moment.

  15. #43695
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    It's hard to get carvel or clinker hulls completely dry but it's a worthwhile goal. A little bit of water in the bilge isn't going to rot your deck as long as you have ventilation.

    Rick

  16. #43696
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    I'd always use marine ply. Masina's deck is all sheathed ply. 0ver 40 years old, no rot.

    Rick
    I have also commented on the high quality of plywood found on WB when I cut out my skylight opening. Her deck is 41 years old .

  17. #43697
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by RFNK View Post
    It's hard to get carvel or clinker hulls completely dry but it's a worthwhile goal. A little bit of water in the bilge isn't going to rot your deck as long as you have ventilation.

    Rick
    Thats more viable. I did notice you mentioned a flooded bilge, which suggests more than the litre or two that the bilge pump can't get. I do sometimes get out that last little bit with a wet vac.

  18. #43698
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    30 years ago I had a 'which boat to buy' conversation with a world famous in NZ boatbuilder who pointed out that lots of the boats built from ply in the 60's were crapping out because the ply technology and awareness of what is right or wrong wasn't there. I've always taken note of that, there's a lifetime, and there's probably a golden age when you could trust BS1088 too.

    Which then leads me to the memory of the time in the early 2000's I found myself standing under a Pied Piper ( Des Townson 22 ft performance boat) at my local haul out yard. It was standing on its keel as you'd expect only there was no bottom in the boat. It had its frames and stringers and sides and deck and all the rest, just no bottom panels at all.
    The owner was there and I commented he had a bit of work on , he replied he 'just came up for an antifoul'. I think that was the first time I became aware of the moaning chair.
    I think if you use inferior grade plywood, you're asking for trouble but I'll argue that the integrity of the build, especially re waterproofing, is the most critical factor.

    Bottom panels sound like either worm damage or a boat that's been out of the water with a pool of fresh in it.

    I'd certainly sheathe any wooden hull, especially a plywood one.

    Rick

  19. #43699
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Thats more viable. I did notice you mentioned a flooded bilge, which suggests more than the litre or two that the bilge pump can't get. I do sometimes get out that last little bit with a wet vac.
    Masina always has a cup or two in the bilge. I think it's from a couple of things I haven't finished installing properly. Annoying but unimportant. The bilges I was referring to .... well, you know, you climb inside and the smell hits you in the face. The sort of bilges that people throw salt into.

    Rick

  20. #43700
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by John B View Post
    30 years ago I had a 'which boat to buy' conversation with a world famous in NZ boatbuilder who pointed out that lots of the boats built from ply in the 60's were crapping out because the ply technology and awareness of what is right or wrong wasn't there. I've always taken note of that, there's a lifetime, and there's probably a golden age when you could trust BS1088 too.

    Which then leads me to the memory of the time in the early 2000's I found myself standing under a Pied Piper ( Des Townson 22 ft performance boat) at my local haul out yard. It was standing on its keel as you'd expect only there was no bottom in the boat. It had its frames and stringers and sides and deck and all the rest, just no bottom panels at all.
    The owner was there and I commented he had a bit of work on , he replied he 'just came up for an antifoul'. I think that was the first time I became aware of the moaning chair.
    Reminds me so much of last year.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  21. #43701
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Yes, I was thinking of you when I read that. I've got a new and annoying leak somewhere in the cockpit. I suspect the steering pedestal as it exerts a lot of leverage. It's that sort of thing that bothers me with marine ply. You can encapsulate as much as you like, but a little hairline crack on a stress point like a pedestal base, the edge of a cleat, under a mast, a Samson post penetration, a cabin/deck join, the bit where your sliding hatch goes BANG where you have to apply lots of force because it sticks and then it suddenly comes loose, the front edge of the anchor winch base, the base of the davits, etc, etc, and etc, a little water gets in and in the absence of any anti fungal treatment Whoof! You suddenly have some very expensive mushroom stew. I know I'm just whingeing now. As far as I can tell it's not a perfect world and its not going to be possible to fix the deck and then ignore it for the next 40 years. Imjustbhave nightmares about fixing the deck and in the very next rain shower finding a drip somewhere. But even worse would be not finding a drip, because the wet is just wicking into all that lovely fresh tasty ply.

  22. #43702
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    That was one of my big jobs last year, the mizzen is deck stepped on the cockpit sole, 40 years later the ply under was damaged and compressed. I cut it out and put a kauri step back in. ...fair use and fair time frame to last, I thought.
    My buddy Dave just had his teak removed and plyed and glassed over last year on Riada's near sister, cost a fortune. There was no damage or repairs needed to the ply sub deck.

  23. #43703
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Y View Post
    Yes, I was thinking of you when I read that. I've got a new and annoying leak somewhere in the cockpit. I suspect the steering pedestal as it exerts a lot of leverage. It's that sort of thing that bothers me with marine ply. You can encapsulate as much as you like, but a little hairline crack on a stress point like a pedestal base, the edge of a cleat, under a mast, a Samson post penetration, a cabin/deck join, the bit where your sliding hatch goes BANG where you have to apply lots of force because it sticks and then it suddenly comes loose, the front edge of the anchor winch base, the base of the davits, etc, etc, and etc, a little water gets in and in the absence of any anti fungal treatment Whoof! You suddenly have some very expensive mushroom stew. I know I'm just whingeing now. As far as I can tell it's not a perfect world and its not going to be possible to fix the deck and then ignore it for the next 40 years. Imjustbhave nightmares about fixing the deck and in the very next rain shower finding a drip somewhere. But even worse would be not finding a drip, because the wet is just wicking into all that lovely fresh tasty ply.
    I have gaffertape on two sections in need of repair which will happen on the haulout.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  24. #43704
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I a bit of Flashtac would be the very best temp repair for a deck. I use it on the 100 year old tin on my shed roof. If sticks wonderfully well.

    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  25. #43705
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I'm surprised they let you continue on the WB Forum Peter! Treated pine and Flashtac! JHC!

    Rick

  26. #43706
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    I LOVE Flashtac, brilliant stuff. Actually the same material is sold in 1.8m wide x 50m rolls as Bituthene
    https://www.crh.com.au/bituthene-3000

    A gentleman I knew from Tasmania , a boat builder who had a hire boat fleet and designed and sold the Admiral Benbow windlass..... but who's name escapes me said he used the stuff over glassed ply under faux teak decking. It remains soft and forms itself tightly around screws.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  27. #43707
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Where is Scot when we need him?

    Rick

  28. #43708
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    You are cruel Rick! So much for trying to introduce some innovation!
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  29. #43709
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Flashtac is awesome stuff. I used it to make an old caravan liveable as a spare room in the yard. That and Ormonoid. By the time it was done I'd realised I needn't have bothered with the Ormonoid.

  30. #43710
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    It's used as industrial roofing over ply in highly polluted environments.
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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  31. #43711
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    IMG_20180822_160751.jpg

    Sizing of 6mm spectra for the stay, and 4mm dyneema for the tensioners. I'm not sure whether the bottom one will be lashed on or shackled, that will change the shape a little.

  32. #43712
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    How did you machine the rope groove around the edge Liam?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
    Grateful Dead

  33. #43713
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    It's 3d printed flat, the overhang or undercut is supported by automatically generated supports that break out after the print is finished. Like bridge struts.

  34. #43714
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    Default Re: Antipodean Boats Connection

    Well I'm not going to do my deck in flashtac and ormonoid.

  35. #43715
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    Default

    You'll need some three dee printed doovers to put over the flashtack no doubt.


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