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Thread: Minimum for 12 months afloat

  1. #1
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    Default Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Howard ( and others), long term cruising on minimum size boats is a subject in which I am very interested. There have been some real whacko attempts at this (remember the Harley 8 anyone?) and there will be others, and I've a couple of designs which are smaller than some pundits would consider the minimum, but the steady sales of plans for these suggests that there are lots of people out there who have dreams that they would not be able to achieve if they had to buy a 45 footer with all the electronic bells and whistles that the fancy yachting magazines seem to feel are required to go further than the marina entrance.
    In order to see what this forum thinks is a workable solution to the needs of a minimum long range cruiser, lets have some thoughts on the matter.
    To set the criteria---
    We can hypothesize, say a 63 year old guy, reasonably fit and hale but not as agile as he was at 20, a budget that will allow him to spend a couple of hundred a week on a "hobby" , half of a double garage in which to build ( he does not mind parking outside, but his otherwise indulgent wife wants her car under cover, and the street committee wont allow him to erect one of those fabric car shelters as a workshop ) .
    In two years time, at 65 yrs old, he wants to set off on a long, 12 months or so, coastal cruise. This may involve voyages of up to three days at sea in the Carribbean so the boat needs to be blue water capable. It also involves some travel in the ICW, some cold weather, and reasonably long periods when motoring will be more practical than sailing.
    Our hypothetical "customer" has very basic wood tool skills, but is a paper shuffler by trade, does not want to become a skilled boatbuilder but will learn enough to build a simple boat so we as designers need to be cognizant of his limits, after all his aim is to get this thing in the water not to produce a work of art. He's got two and a half years to build and test, and has all his usual employment and household duties.
    I'd bet that a lot of us are familiar with all that.

    So, what do we design? What creature comforts do we include, remembering that as 20 year olds we'd sleep anywhere and would put up with discomfits that would cripple us today, remember too that the 12 month voyage should be fun, not something to endure for the sake of establishing a record for the most uncomfortable boat to sail from some obscure place to another.

    What should it be built of, how big ( remember that garage, how many people have no other possible building space? Lots!) What should the interior be like, how much tankage or should he just use plastic jerries? inboard or outboard motor? Rig? Keel configuration, remembering that he will want to explore the tiny places but has to cross some wide ones as well. On and on, you get the picture.

    Last time I initiated a debate like this I asked for opinions about a long range cruising dinghy, a really practical open boat cruiser and my Pathfinder design was the outcome.
    Let the debate begin, but keep it constructive please. There is some real research going on here.



    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    He's got thirty years on me so I can't speak to the age and creaky old bones but I can say that ply sounds like something to be considered. Will the overindulgent wife be traveling with him? If she won't let him put her car in the driveway, odds are she'll not be happy with something like coquina and a tent. However you can't build a Peterson Coaster in two years in your garage either. I am pretty sure standing headroom is out. It will have to be more of a long term camping trip which to me says a smaller cabin and a larger cockpit, where you'd spend most of your time anyway. You can't give ove rmost of the boat to a cuddy cabin in something say 18 feet long if you're not going to spend any time there because there's no headroom. I think embracing the fact that it's an "outside" boat rather than an "inside" boat and go from there. Said cockpit should be self draining if at all possible since it's large and she'll be offshore. There's no room to waste on an inboard motor so I think a small outboard might be in order. A simple rig that is adaptable to me means more than one mast but a schooner seems too much, a ketch puts a mast in the middle of the cockpit. That leaves a yawl rig, I envision something like oughtred's little yawls with the mizzen on the inside of the transom, perhaps offset to one side. Weight down low is important but if it's too low it would drag through some of the florida/carib bottoms. A CB could be used to mount a table outside or as a step structure inside. Ballast on either side of it would be desireable.
    There are lots of things to consider and many conflicting "wants". I look forward to seeing what others think of this.
    If one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    No doubt you will get a lot of good advice from this forum! My suggestion includes reading Annie Hill's book which is packed full of practical advice earned from actually doing it.

    Voyaging on a Small Income.


  4. #4
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    As someone who will be sixty in the new year (I just can't get my mind around that yet!) one of the criteria for the hull design, length and 'feel' underway, at anchor and moving around aboard is stability. Rocking, hobby-horsing and heeling from side to side while moving around the boat is likely more bothersome for someone who's heavier, less muscled and wants to sleep well and comfortably. Of course there are lots of lean sixty year olds, and more power to them (I'm envious), but they would only like such features all the more, eh?

    I'd also have it be trailerable and easy to climb aboard on the trailer. Thus it could be used as a camper ashore when traveling overland to new waters. Or when it's one of those times you have to sleep on the couch.
    Last edited by rbgarr; 11-25-2011 at 03:23 PM.
    “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.”

  5. #5
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Always an interesting concept. A friend of mine built a double chine 26ft double ender from plywood, with a bolt on steel keel in 4 months full time work. That boat went from the tropics to the Arctic. A single pole gaff rig was chosen as the cheapest option giving good alround performance.A single handed 12 month voyage was undertaken,and then a double handed voyage of 10 months. A boat this size would be easy enough to construct even by a person of advancing age .A simple boat,comfortable sitting headroom,no inboard or fixed tankage. For a one off voyage of 12 months and 2.5 years of build time, unless building was for personnal enjoyment,you would be a bit of a muppet not to buy a secondhand yacht.
    I certainly dont wish to dampen the enthusiasim for design suggestions,so i will go for plywood,single masted, with outboard,fully decked with just a footwell in the cockpit.I would have though a swaggie would fit the bill.

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Well, at 59 1/2, and a shop that's 23' x 23' with an 8' ceiling , and a wife that has let me build 8 boats from 8' to 23 1/2' you might say I'm the target audience. Especially as the boss will retire in 2 years and I really want to do the ICW, probably the Great loop, so instead of blue water, I need to feel safe on the Great lakes and the Gulf of Mexico.

    I noticed you never used the word SAIL in your opening dialogue, thats good because I have no use for a sail, except maybe for steading or strictly downwind work.

    The next boat I build will be this boat for the ICW / Great Lakes for the 2 of us. One major requirement of the boss is that it have a comfortable bathroom. 3' x 3' is fine. Wag bags or flushing potty, doesn't matter, but it must be a dedicated head. Some portion of the cabin must be stand-up headroom. And we need 2 seperate berths, with some space between them. I have sleep apnea and I sleep with a cpap mask so the berth seperation is for noise abatement.

    So John, if you design the right boat, I could be the poster child.
    edited to add:
    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    and reasonably long periods when motoring will be more practical than sailing.

    John Welsford
    OOps you did say the word SAIL
    Last edited by openboater; 11-25-2011 at 02:38 PM.

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    John
    Interesting proposal.

    Perhaps the criteria could be tweaked a little to reflect a slightly different “reality” element. This being the fact that while many of us may dream of the 12 month open boat voyage so few of us will actually do it. I believe the number of sailors who would actually set off on a dedicated 12-month cruise in a small boat (with or without cabin) exists but likely can be counted on the fingers of one hand with digits to spare.

    How about a boat that is purpose designed as a small, capable, easy to handle on land and water short distance (short window of time) cruiser that is capable of blue water and with a few minor tweaks capable of twelve months as opposed to a boat purpose designed from the drawing board to go for the full monty, 12 months. I believe these boats/directions would be quite different.

    Your hypothetical sailor has a wife (she would have to be an angel or all smiles, glad he’s out of her hair or she signs on), he has responsibilities, an aging body. Twelve months in an open cockpit or cramped cabin would likely be interesting only to the rarest of sailors, regardless of whether they were young and fit or older and fit.

    Many may dream of 12 or so months and more power to them if they can pull it off. However more sailors will likely be able to manage the micro cruise of a few days with the occasional week or two voyage. Reality sailing.

    I work to make time in my life to sail small and cruise but I recognize there are other parts of my life that need my attention. In this reality small boats fit because I can juggle life with remote anchorages and loons calling all in one weekend or get that over the horizon feeling with a two to four week cruise.

    I counsel that open boats are better suited for shorter cruises but cruises that are as bona fide as any made by large cruising yachts. Large yacht cruisers often think in terms of getting the adventure/cruising feeling by going hundreds or thousands of miles to a destination. Shrink boat size and as a micro cruiser I also get real cruising experiences, adventure, challenges and feelings of accomplishment in three day to month long adventures with the occasional longer voyage that in many ways eclipse the feelings of accomplishment I have had in larger boats.

    I would wager the boat that is developed for a dedicated 12 month voyage would be a different boat than one that “could do 12 months” yet is designed for shorter voyage reality sailing. In the end result I have found that the boats I select and set up tend to be what I refer to as “pocket yachts” (as capable as large yachts) that with a little tweaking could set off for 12 month voyages but………….not likely. They are primarily coastal cruisers yet can manage blue water crossings safely.

    I may suggest reading some Webb Chiles not so much for his accomplishments crossing oceans but for his very eloquent descriptions of day to day living in an open boat (tented) for months at a time. It is sobering and dreamily freeing at the same time but in reality I wonder.

    I once lived aboard an 18' 6" boat for one year, six months and twelve days in a mix of winter and topical conditions, I was voyaging. In actuality I was done before the first year was finished but I pressed on. The boat had a cabin but it was small. At nineteen and twenty years of age comfort is not as relevant as it is for the hypothetical 60 some year old cited here.

    Looking forward to reading the opinions and ideas of others. I have been enjoying this forum. I live on a remote Pacific island and have no television and no radio, and I am blessed for the fact. The ability to participate and learn from others here is due to technology...........I now have internet service in my village of Kepin Kep. I am perched here in my house atop the cliff overlooking Palikir Pass, the lagoon below and the vast Pacific thinking boats. Thanks to all who post, this is far more interesting than the village roosters!
    Respectfully,
    howard
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 11-25-2011 at 02:48 PM.
    Howard Rice- Lookfar International, Pohnpei Micronesia and Kanazawa Shi, Ishikawa, Japan www.smallcraftacademy.com

  8. #8
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I have been pouring over the lines of 20' sailing dory Centennial, the first boat to be single handed across the Atlantic Ocean.
    Centennial had a mast in a tabernackel so the whole rig could be safely and quickly lowered in case of bad weather... wich could be an ideal setup for trailer sailing


    Last edited by Daniel Noyes; 11-26-2011 at 12:50 PM.

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    A 20ft dory may be capable of crossing the atlantic,would you want to spend 12 months on a boat that was more like a floating coffin but with slightly more headroom. JW didnt specify wether this was a cold or warm water vessel, but any vessel fit for ocean should be capable of survivng worst envisioned enviromental conditions. Yes its possible in a 20ft dory,but any old codger would rather a bit more comfort.JW didnt specify a budget either....

  10. #10
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I see a 21' X 10' 6" marine ply multi chine centerboard catboat with self draining cockpit and 2 of 9.9 Yamaha outboards. Lots of room for stores, to spread out for sleeping and for guest(s) or a full time companion. Shallow draft when wanted and stable. Maybe a counterweighted tabernackle mast with the pivot point up high enough to allow for stepping/unstepping by one person. Bowsprit with a storm jib for downwind when it's blowy.. Curtain in the cockpit for using a bucket head or taking a bucket shower when anchored within sight of others. Boom tent. 12 volt electrics, water tankage and fuel tankage.

  11. #11
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    A really comfortable place to sleep and equally important a really comfortable place to sit.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I would imagine something in the line of Guzzwell's Trekka. THe sloop rigged version.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    A really comfortable place to sleep and equally important a really comfortable place to sit.
    For sure a comfortable place to sit. Not just sitting on a bunk. If you're on this boat for a year, you need a nice spot to sit and read, write, relax, eat, look out the windows at the gulls.....

    I'd also vote outboard instead of inboard, jerry cans instead of built in tanks. With only 2 years to build, store bought gas / water / waste cans are much quicker to install, although a little more expensive.

    At least 4 (better 6) Group 31 AGM batteries for ballast and for the small 12v fridge. Honda EU1000i generator for recharging every 4-5 days if no shore power is available.

  14. #14
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    half of a double garage in which to build ( he does not mind parking outside, but his otherwise indulgent wife wants her car under cover
    That is so my wife - I'm a ways off 60 but I already have one of those wives - so I've decided to pull my side of the garage clear off altogether, raise the roof and attach a big shed
    The very thing that makes you rich, makes me poor - Ry Cooder

    I was designing a sailing boat for a small live aboard, for the family to holiday - it's not yet finished and probably not to build now, as I have too big a project to get into already - but nevertheless
    My design criteria were that could be roomy enough to live aboard, stick out the end of the garage, just go onto a trailer (<2.5m beam and <3ton), be reasonably shoal draft (2'3"), and quite seaworthy/self-righting (fairly straight external ballast keel + centreboard), and have headroom or near headroom via a wider floor - I figured that I could keep the room up, displacement down and maintain Cp, d/L ratio and ballast weight, by using a stern overhang, like a pilot cutter.
    Gaff rigged with tabernacle for lower CG and lower sail effort and ease of getting the mast down if needed. A yawl rig is something I'd like to explore, to reduce the need to use an engine further, by better maneuverability at closer quarters, and spread the effort even more.
    I usually think a bit too big though - the wife would need a small car
    it's 8.1m lod, 2.43m beam, lwl 6.77m, draft 0.7m, displacement 2500kg light 2968 loaded, d/L 268, Cp 0.55, best headroom 1.81m, sitting room 0.9m, static stability estimate (by calculator)140 d, strip plank epoxy & sheathed (or cold molded over with ply with less sheathing), epoxy dynel light coloured decks, engine - small diesel ~ 15+ hp, or perhaps a small outboard



    sayla
    Last edited by Sayla; 11-25-2011 at 05:35 PM.

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Yes, I did mention sail, but that was not intended to exclude the idea of a "motor all the time" boat. ( Someone coined that phrase for a long range voyaging power boat, cant recall off hand but its a good description). A motor boat with only a very few exceptions is way cheaper per capacity and capability than a sailboat with auxiliary power.

    There is something that is evident from a number of the posts so far, and thats the limit on size. One side of a double car garage will yield a build space of maybe 22 ft x 10 ft, possibly with a workbench cribbed at the front of the good ladies little car. That also means not more than 8 ft high including rolling the boat over and fitting a keel under, although I'd be accepting of the idea that latter could be done at the boatyard before launching. I can accept that major materials will be stored in the back porch or in the lawnmower shed ( or wherever) but that space is not negotiable, even if your own garage is bigger.
    It means no more than 8ft wide as you need to be able to sidle down each side to access the work, and you need a foot and a half at each end so we're talking 19ft, x 8 ft, x maybe 2 ft 6in fixed draft in a boat with 5 ft headroom.

    John Welsford






    Quote Originally Posted by openboater View Post
    Well, at 59 1/2, and a shop that's 23' x 23' with an 8' ceiling , and a wife that has let me build 8 boats from 8' to 23 1/2' you might say I'm the target audience. Especially as the boss will retire in 2 years and I really want to do the ICW, probably the Great loop, so instead of blue water, I need to feel safe on the Great lakes and the Gulf of Mexico.

    I noticed you never used the word SAIL in your opening dialogue, thats good because I have no use for a sail, except maybe for steading or strictly downwind work.

    The next boat I build will be this boat for the ICW / Great Lakes for the 2 of us. One major requirement of the boss is that it have a comfortable bathroom. 3' x 3' is fine. Wag bags or flushing potty, doesn't matter, but it must be a dedicated head. Some portion of the cabin must be stand-up headroom. And we need 2 seperate berths, with some space between them. I have sleep apnea and I sleep with a cpap mask so the berth seperation is for noise abatement.

    So John, if you design the right boat, I could be the poster child.
    edited to add:
    OOps you did say the word SAIL
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  16. #16
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    The budget is implied, a couple of hundred a week, 2 1/2 years, thats about 25 grand all fitted and stored including the trailer to cart it down to the water and any costs to register it.
    Also, I mentioned "some cold weather" and Carribbean, so both warm and cold.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    A 20ft dory may be capable of crossing the atlantic,would you want to spend 12 months on a boat that was more like a floating coffin but with slightly more headroom. JW didnt specify wether this was a cold or warm water vessel, but any vessel fit for ocean should be capable of survivng worst envisioned enviromental conditions. Yes its possible in a 20ft dory,but any old codger would rather a bit more comfort.JW didnt specify a budget either....
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  17. #17
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    We're actually pretty close in our perceptions here Howard, although I did not specifically mention a cabin, the comfort requirement over 12 months was, I thought a reasonable indication that a lid over the accommodation would be a worthwhile thing. The 12 months requirement does not preclude the use of the boat for weekends, and there is a wife to consider, possibly weekending on her beloveds boat when he is in someplace interesting but its his dream, not hers.
    I've read Webb Chiles writings, and pretty well everything else I could get my hands on that has been written about liveaboard on very small boats. Most of them tell of discomfort and privation to an extent that is beyond me. A properly made cup of English Breakfast tea in the morning is as welcome to me as your coffee is to you, and a spinal injury in the past still haunts me if I cant sit "right". Both the desire for the necessities of a civilized life and living with the consequences to the body of youthful excesses are common to the age group, and the paper pusher is not as accustomed to living with discomfort as the outdoor worker so voyaging as Webb did is not part of the prescription here.

    back a lot longer than I care to admit, my then wife and I built a fairly small 20 ft centerboarder with a mimimum cabin, and it took less than 3 years to hit 100 nights on board, Ive not done the liveaboard thing ( yet, there is still hope) but have a lot of time on board. But in this case Im my ( hypothetical, and perhaps later, real) customers advocate.
    There are some interesting posts beginning to appear, and its only a few hours after I put up the first posting.

    I do love "Blueberry",one of the nicest small boats I know of, but am looking for "different " ideas.

    Keep 'em coming people, but read the first posting as though it were a College assignment and I'm your grumpy old professor ( been there and done that) marking you for your understanding of the brief as well as your ideas.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    John
    Interesting proposal.

    Perhaps the criteria could be tweaked a little to reflect a slightly different “reality” element. This being the fact that while many of us may dream of the 12 month open boat voyage so few of us will actually do it. I believe the number of sailors who would actually set off on a dedicated 12-month cruise in a small boat (with or without cabin) exists but likely can be counted on the fingers of one hand with digits to spare.

    How about a boat that is purpose designed as a small, capable, easy to handle on land and water short distance (short window of time) cruiser that is capable of blue water and with a few minor tweaks capable of twelve months as opposed to a boat purpose designed from the drawing board to go for the full monty, 12 months. I believe these boats/directions would be quite different.

    Your hypothetical sailor has a wife (she would have to be an angel or all smiles, glad he’s out of her hair or she signs on), he has responsibilities, an aging body. Twelve months in an open cockpit or cramped cabin would likely be interesting only to the rarest of sailors, regardless of whether they were young and fit or older and fit.

    Many may dream of 12 or so months and more power to them if they can pull it off. However more sailors will likely be able to manage the micro cruise of a few days with the occasional week or two voyage. Reality sailing.

    I work to make time in my life to sail small and cruise but I recognize there are other parts of my life that need my attention. In this reality small boats fit because I can juggle life with remote anchorages and loons calling all in one weekend or get that over the horizon feeling with a two to four week cruise.

    I counsel that open boats are better suited for shorter cruises but cruises that are as bona fide as any made by large cruising yachts. Large yacht cruisers often think in terms of getting the adventure/cruising feeling by going hundreds or thousands of miles to a destination. Shrink boat size and as a micro cruiser I also get real cruising experiences, adventure, challenges and feelings of accomplishment in three day to month long adventures with the occasional longer voyage that in many ways eclipse the feelings of accomplishment I have had in larger boats.

    I would wager the boat that is developed for a dedicated 12 month voyage would be a different boat than one that “could do 12 months” yet is designed for shorter voyage reality sailing. In the end result I have found that the boats I select and set up tend to be what I refer to as “pocket yachts” (as capable as large yachts) that with a little tweaking could set off for 12 month voyages but………….not likely. They are primarily coastal cruisers yet can manage blue water crossings safely.

    I may suggest reading some Webb Chiles not so much for his accomplishments crossing oceans but for his very eloquent descriptions of day to day living in an open boat (tented) for months at a time. It is sobering and dreamily freeing at the same time but in reality I wonder.

    I once lived aboard an 18' 6" boat for one year, six months and twelve days in a mix of winter and topical conditions, I was voyaging. In actuality I was done before the first year was finished but I pressed on. The boat had a cabin but it was small. At nineteen and twenty years of age comfort is not as relevant as it is for the hypothetical 60 some year old cited here.

    Looking forward to reading the opinions and ideas of others. I have been enjoying this forum. I live on a remote Pacific island and have no television and no radio, and I am blessed for the fact. The ability to participate and learn from others here is due to technology...........I now have internet service in my village of Kepin Kep. I am perched here in my house atop the cliff overlooking Palikir Pass, the lagoon below and the vast Pacific thinking boats. Thanks to all who post, this is far more interesting than the village roosters!
    Respectfully,
    howard
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    we're talking 19ft, x 8 ft, x maybe 2 ft 6in fixed draft in a boat with 5 ft headroom.

    John Welsford
    I missed that. Make it a yawl motorsailer.
    Last edited by JimD; 11-25-2011 at 06:04 PM.

  19. #19
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Great thread John. I too am your target for this boat, and it's something I've thought about often. For me, there are 3 areas of concern: creature comfort; contact with the world, and capacities.

    For comfort, I agree that a proper place to sleep, that doesn't have to convert to another use, and a proper seat for reading and pondering are key to success. The other thing is climate control: great positive ventilation so you can be comfortable closed up, a source of heat for cold wet days, an insulated hull so the cold of the water doesn't get you even when you're dry, and a comfortable place to pee and poop.

    Contact: I would want to have a computer and cell phone to back up VHF radio. All require electricity, so either good storage or generation ability is needed to support the devices for a sufficient period of time (see next point).

    Regarding capacities: I would be attracted to a solution that maximized the period of time I could be away from shore facilities. The ideal (for me) would be about 20 days of self-sufficiency: water, fuel, electricity, stores, holding tank capacity. The time could be spent sailing, at anchor, or any combination, but without access to services.

    - Norm

  20. #20
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    The height and condition of the sailor are starting points. For instance, I'm 193 cm tall and have a touchy back. Upright sitting (e.g. church pew) puts me crook in a very short time. So I would need a semi-reclining place to sit for reading, etc. (shaped cushions on a berth would work) and also a way to cook and do cabin chores without being hunched over, i.e. a kneeler or some sort of kneeling chair. I've used one of these for the last 30 years, and it helps. This sort also folds flat for easy stowage.



    The casters can be removed and the bottom bars coated with nonskid rubber.

    If I was planning to be offshore for extended periods, without any chance to walk or otherwise shake out, I would have be very careful about posture and also do yoga or some other exercises— where on a craft this small is there enough flat space for this? If I spent the year coasting and could get off for a ramble, that'd allow a more-confined living space.

    The main point is that the design needs to accommodate the sailor and not be a punishing, cramped, crippling little prison under sail.

  21. #21
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Forgot to add the other "C" - cooking. There should be cooking facilities that are adequate to preparing real meals with minimum compromise.

    - Norm

  22. #22
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    .................. so we're talking 19ft, x 8 ft, x maybe 2 ft 6in fixed draft in a boat with 5 ft headroom.........that's about 25 grand all fitted and stored including the trailer to cart it down to the water and any costs to register it
    John Welsford
    Perhaps the balance of displacement/comfort/seaworthiness vs displacement effecting trailer cost might be an initial consideration.
    At 8' beam, the standard initial capsize screening formula sees 1850kg as being acceptable - so is 2T displacement and trailer capacity in order? Or is water ballast required?

    sayla
    Last edited by Sayla; 11-25-2011 at 06:45 PM.

  23. #23
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    Default

    Great thread. I, too, fit the target profile pretty near exactly. After studying this question for quite some time I decided that the garage build space wasn't big enough and for the stated build price I could buy a used glass boat. So I bought an old F27 trimaran, which fills the sailing side of the equation perfectly.

    But I don't mean to rain on the parade. If I had to build in the garage, a Bolger stretch Micro would be one option. A Bolger cabin Chebacco would be another. Or perhaps a catamaran built in two or three pieces to be assembled outside, still just 8.5' wide.
    Everybody has a right to be stupid, but some people abuse the privilege.

  24. #24
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I'm not far off the target market either at 57 and still wanting to try my hand at a decent little boat project. In the scheme of things, I like length and would probably prefer something a bit longer (I said longer, not Bigger...)

    I'm going to advocate a multihull. Ideas that have intrigued me are the ECO Motorboat http://ikarus342000.com/ECOmotorboat.htm , Richard Woods, Skoota http://www.sailingcatamarans.com and this 21' version of a Shellboats catamaran. http://www.thebeachcats.com/classifi...catanaran.html A simple sailrig, perhaps optimized for offwind sailing, would be a nice add-on. Something that is more conservative like a Wharram or Ray Aldridge's Slider would be my idea of a rig set up that at least could sail to windward should the spirit move.

    In this size range, a trimaran might make more sense but I prefer a catamaran (more boaty, less like a spider... it's my problem okay?) (and I've had both and the tri sailed better)

    A cuddy/berth flat works well with potential headroom in the hulls are quite doable with this setup. Richard Woods has a pretty good way of making this size cat trailerable AND easy to build in sections in said garage. However, I really believe that trailerability is waaay over emphasized in these small boats. Nice theoretically, but in practice it restricts the actual use the boat will get if it's not kept in a slip or on a mooring. I 'use' my boats a lot even though I don't always get underway. Trailering also imposes limitations of weight and dimensions that tend to work against a lot of other design goals. Granted, not being readily trailered has financial implications and in the brief, finances appear to be an issue.

    I've really tinkered for a long time with trying to find the catamaran substitute for a Rozinante classic. Haven't done it yet but in part, that's because my interior requirements tend to creep. ( I really like an enclosed head and even a shower space for a pressurized sprayer type shower), Then I have this thing about still being 'young' enough to want that double bunk.....

    I'd give up the permanent berth for a convertable settee but the Admiral wouldn't really be enthusiastic. This probably means I'm really more of a better candidate for a bigger boat than what we're talking about here, still many ideas are transferable.

    I also want a boat that I can take to wooden boat festivals and gatherings and messabouts and raids with pride.

    I'm still thinking but this will add to the fire....
    Last edited by Dryfeet; 11-25-2011 at 09:05 PM.

  25. #25
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I'm sixty four, six feet four inches, and have a seating height of nearly 40 inches. Physical therapy is slowly curing my back pain, but I have to pay attention to sitting up, not slouching or bending. Bunks should be at least 6'6", I'd like the cockpit seating that long (it could be on the deck with a footwell and backrest, and I suspect I don't get it.) Center cockpit. Aft sleeping cabin. Fore cabin has head, galley, nav, facing good seats. Probably junk-cat-schooner or junk-cat-ketch on a pram or scow hull.
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

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  26. #26
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    "motor all the time" boat. ( Someone coined that phrase for a long range voyaging power boat, cant recall off hand but its a good description).


    John Welsford
    The Great Beebe hisself, John.

    Your remark about capacity and capability is most apposite; it's this that's helping me restrain the urge to return from the Dark Side and get another boat with those white flappy things upstairs.
    "The truth shall make ye fret" - Terry Pratchett

  27. #27
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by Dryfeet View Post
    ... 21' version of a Shellboats catamaran. ..
    I've always found that to be an intriguing design. Its been ridiculed around here as a poor sailer but I really like her lines and wonder if it might not make an ok power boat.



    There are apparently at least two of them


  28. #28
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I think something like the Atkin Martha Green would suit the brief. Enough sail area to make progress, but also able to motor all the time. Another motor all the time design would be Glen-l Play n Jane 22ft x 8ft, not designed for sailing but no doubt a get home rig could be added,its a capacious hull.

    For those interested in long distance small cruisers, check out Mayrik 21 Trawler.

  29. #29
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Having read through your brief again JW, 3 days at sea between stops, dont see why your Penguin design should not fit the bill,unless she needs keel/ballast mods to be self righting. I think shes one of the biggest of the small designs availiable....hard to get right in small boats,but i think you pulled it off with that one. I lived on a 26ft single chine lightweight plywood yacht for almost 3 years, longest time at sea between landings was 34 days, i carried a lot of water but only 1 gallon of fuel. I see no reason why this boat needs to exceed 2 tons,if regular stops and provisioning is availiable.The lighter boat will be quicker,cheaper to build and less costly to propel with either power or sails.

  30. #30
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by outofthenorm View Post
    For me, there are 3 areas of concern: creature comfort; contact with the world, and capacities.

    For comfort, I agree that a proper place to sleep, that doesn't have to convert to another use, and a proper seat for reading and pondering are key to success. The other thing is climate control: great positive ventilation so you can be comfortable closed up, a source of heat for cold wet days, an insulated hull so the cold of the water doesn't get you even when you're dry, and a comfortable place to pee and poop.

    Contact: I would want to have a computer and cell phone to back up VHF radio. All require electricity, so either good storage or generation ability is needed to support the devices for a sufficient period of time (see next point).

    Regarding capacities: I would be attracted to a solution that maximized the period of time I could be away from shore facilities. The ideal (for me) would be about 20 days of self-sufficiency: water, fuel, electricity, stores, holding tank capacity. The time could be spent sailing, at anchor, or any combination, but without access to services.
    Norm's criteria are pretty-much what I would be looking for too -- along with his Cooking. But for living aboard in local waters (unlike your specification) I reckon I might be able to last on kerosene for lighting and cooking at a pinch, doing away with computer, phone, and radio. A solid-fuel heater would be a definite requirement though, whatever the waters.

    Berths 6'-6" as well, although you could still use trotter boxes over the last 18", a la Sanderling. Separate chart table and head (the head wouldn't have to have its own compartment, although clearly that would be preferable.)

    Other things as I think of them....

    Mike
    Visit us to see how we help people complete classic boats authentically.

  31. #31
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    I think the underlying question is whether or not the garage is big enough for the typical retired guy. I decided my boat needs to be bigger than that and others have agreed. Basically, you have to decide if you can live in something the size of a minivan. And that suggests a boxy scow type hull. I did used to cruise solo in an 18' boat -- fine for a week but not for much more than that.

    My strategy would be to overcome the space restriction by going to a modular design. The catamaran or a sharpie done in, say, two 15' sections to be joined as the last step. An Oughtred Haiku might be built this way, for example.
    Everybody has a right to be stupid, but some people abuse the privilege.

  32. #32
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I'm a very high mileage 63 yrs and 20' of anything is just not large enough in ANY manner except for the rig size. I would want a real bed with a real mattress, a man sized elongated bowl head with a large holding tank, an adequate galley, comfortable sitting space for at least two, large fuel and water tankage and tons of stowage space. If you require the boat be constructed in a one car garage I would suggest we build it in two pieces and assemble it outside. How about a 38' x 9' light displacement motorsailer with a sheltered helm, counter-balanced tabernackled mast(s), inside ballast and plenty of power. And please give us old folks something easy to move around on - wide, clear decks with lots of waist high handholds (no silly life-lines), easy boarding from docks or water and a minimum of stairstepping. And make it cheap and pretty while you're at it :-)
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  33. #33
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    To maximize comfortable living space for the long periods of time on the boat, I recommend a totally enclosed boat. virtually no outside decks for an evening stroll. It will probably need a small deck aft to play with the outboard and gas tanks and Honda genset, but the rest is all inside. Think of it as one of the modern unsinkable bright orange lifeboats, but with a bright and airy feel. lots of Lexan, thick lexan that can take a real beating. opening windows to let mother nature in without having to go outside. Yea I know thats gonna' be real hard to design, but I have faith in you.

    Entertainment center will consist of Sirius XM radio (cost $149, $95 yearly subscription) so I can listen to the Yankee games no matter where I am. USB cellular modem for the internet and a laptop and cellphone. I currently use this set up with a 52" cellular whip antenna and the reception is amazing. I'm not a Kindle of Nook user so I'll need a dozen books.

    Galley - 12v fridge so I can always have a cold glass of water, or occassional beer and sandwich meat. Single burner stove is fine , Must have coffee in the morning so malita is the most effecient. French press it too hard to clean. Simple but tasty meals can be made with a frypan or boiling water. Place to hang the garlic and dried hot peppers. Simple tiny sink with hand pump, do dishes in plastic dish pan. no domestic hot water system other than putting a pot on the stove.

  34. #34
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Perhaps 4.75m Souriceau fits the spec, with her fully protected interior, yet loads of deck space, small size to fit the build space. http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/...micro-cruiser/


  35. #35
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I like this and will follow it with interest. I don't have time to make a useful contribution right now.

  36. #36
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by Woxbox View Post
    My strategy would be to overcome the space restriction by going to a modular design. The catamaran or a sharpie done in, say, two 15' sections to be joined as the last step. An Oughtred Haiku might be built this way, for example.
    I agree with Woxbox. There's no reason the last 4' or so of the boat could not be added at the last minute in the driveway. By the time the homeowners' association got around to bringing a lawsuit against you for having a boat in your driveway, the boat could be on its mooring.

    I have been a longtime admirer of Jay Benford's 26' Cutter found in Annie Hill's book already mentioned "Voyaging on a Small Income." It is a proper seagoing yacht with very much useable space inside. It is sort of the little sister to Annie Hill's home afloat, Badger, also designed by Benford. The dory hull would be quick and inexpensive to build. I bet the cutter rig would go to weather much better than the big sister's. Of course you could always crank up the sweet little diesel if the wind or seas were not agreeable. As a 62 year old with recent back problems, I would definitely not go to sea for a long voyage in anything smaller. It could well be that this little cutter could use some John Welsford touches like a more rounded hull and offset centerboards. I suspect that John could also well design that last modular four foot of bow needed to be added at the end of the build. Or maybe it could be a Super SCAMP with the last four foot of boat simply missing.

    Last edited by kenjamin; 11-26-2011 at 09:21 AM.

  37. #37
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    From here: http://atomvoyages.com/articles/Alert.htm




    Sailor Profile By James Baldwin
    Still Cruising After 80 Years
    80-year-old Jim Melcher and wife Diane circle the
    Atlantic on their hybrid-design leeboarder Alert.

    Jim Melcher, rendered by his artist wife, Diane de Grasse.
    Among the diverse stream of cruising boats passing through the port of Luperon in the Caribbean’s Dominican Republic lin 2002, one boat and her skipper stood apart from the crowd. Alert is a 33-foot Phil Bolger-designed Manatee leeboarder that stubbornly refuses to fit into any standard yacht category. Alert’s 80-year-old master, Jim Melcher, is equally unique among his fellow cruisers, virtually all of which are considerably younger and much less experienced.
    Eight decades of messing about in boats has left Jim, now bespectacled, gray-bearded and rail-thin, with remarkably good health and a continuing desire to learn more about boats and the cruising life as he sails into is sunset years.
    Jim has sailed since his childhood in the 1920’s and 1930’s, when he lived at his parents summer sailing camp for children on Cape Cod in Massachusetts. Watching local shipwrights at work and listening to stories told by fishermen on the Cape Cod waterfront further nurtured the boy’s wanderlust and fascination with the sea. In his teens, fresh out of high school, Jim traveled west to Seattle to enroll in a boatbuilding school recommended to him by legendary boat designer Bill Garden.
    World War II interrupted his schooling, but he continued his boatbuilding apprenticeship serving as ship’s carpenter in the U.S. Coast Guard in Seattle and Honolulu. After the war, he operated a salmon fishing boat out of Seattle. Some years later, he returned to Massachusetts, where he married and raised three children while re-establishing the family's Pleasant Bay Sailing Camp on the cape.
    During the late 1970’s, Jim worked part-time for three years building Alert as a replacement for Triumph, his 45-foot Culler-designed leeboarder ketch. “Triumph resembled a Chesapeake Bay skipjack, but Alert is very different and possibly unique since I don’t know of any others that were built,” Jim says. Alert is a curious and unorthodox amalgamation of distinctive features which, considering her design oddities, have combined into a remarkably attractive and functional boat.

    Alert and her Chinese gaff rig
    Based on the 19th century Thames River barges, she is round bilged and flat bottomed, with flat sides amidships to accommodate her outboard hung leeboards. Her present rig is another peculiar hybrid design: a tabernacle-stepped “Chinese gaff”.
    Jim claims the epoxy-sheathed, strip-planked Manatee design is relatively simple to build. Alert’s boards up draft of merely 22 inches and beam under eight feet make her easy to trailer and a gunkholers delight. The flat bottom and low profile keel helps her to sit nearly upright when taking the bottom on a falling tide. For auxiliary power, Alert is fitted with a 3-cylinder 25 HP Sole diesel with offset, two-bladed folding propeller.
    Fully loaded for cruising, this ultra-shallow-draft passagemaker displaces 13,000 pounds and, surprisingly, obtains sufficient stability from her six-inch square, 19-foot-long lead-ballast keel weighing just 2,800 pounds. Her designer, Phil Bolger, tells in his book Different Boats how the stability of very shallow-draft vessels like the Manatee is quite different from that of a conventional full-bodied yacht. “(They) don’t have any buoyancy deep under water, the kind that floats up and capsizes a deep-bodied boat if her ballast keel drops off,” he writes. Unlike mainstream designers, Bolger’s design philosophy is free of the dogma of the racing-yacht form and not restricted to the Marconi rig.
    Jim took advantage of Alert’s ease of trailering by hauling her cross-country to Seattle in 1983. Sailing with various crew and occasionally solo, he ventured north to British Columbia, then south to Panama, through the Canal, and among the Caribbean Islands. In the mid-1990’s, Jim single-handed Alert across the Atlantic via Nova Scotia and the Azores, circumnavigated Britain, and explored Europe’s rivers and canals as far inland as Berlin.

    Alert careened on a two-foot tide for bottom cleaning.
    As I boarded Alert from steps attached to the transom-hung rudder and commented on the arrangement’s simple ingenuity, Jim said those steps saved his life when an accidental jibe caused the boom to fling him overboard during a storm in the North Atlantic. His matter-of-fact declaration made it sound as though getting tossed overboard alone in mid-ocean in your 70’s is a perfectly normal occurrence.
    Speaking after thousands of miles of bluewater sailing, Jim believes, “A well-designed shallow draft boat is certainly seaworthy in anything short of a hurricane and even then it’s easy to seek protection up a shallow creek. She doesn’t slog as well to windward as a deep-keeled boat, but she has the obvious advantages of shallow draft. Occasionally a leeboard gets to banging against the hull and I cushion it by jamming in a small fender. All in all she’s a very capable cruising boat.”
    Alert has undergone numerous modifications in her 23 years. The first major change Jim took was to take a chainsaw to the flush deck and add a raised deckhouse. Phil Bolger disapproved of this major surgery, but the appeal of standing headroom outweighed Bolger’s aesthetic sensibilities. Jim raised the original cockpit seats to a more comfortable height for sitting. He also cut 14 inches off the trailing edges of the leeboards, which markedly improved visibility around them when stored in their upright position without noticeably harming their performance.

    Jim and Diane aboard Alert in Luperon, Dominican Republic.
    Down below, Alert seems cramped compared to modern beamier yachts of her length. Even so, there’s ample space for the full double berth forward, a well-appointed galley amidships, and a table with two single bunks in a main salon that’s nicely uncluttered by a centerboard trunk.
    The original Marconi cat-yawl rig worked well for 14 years, but as Alert’s skipper aged, he sought a more easily handled sail plan. In 1997, Bolger designed a new rig for Alert which he called a “Chinese gaff”. He shortened the mizzen mast and converted it to a sheet staff, giving the junk rig’s multi-part mainsheet a better angle to remove excess twist from the full-battened mainsail. Though cut down three feet, the boom is still a lengthy 24 feet, and the shortened, unstayed laminated-Douglas-fir mast is 34 feet overall. A sunken well in the foredeck allows room for the base of the mast to pivot forward as it’s lowered in its tabernacle. When needed, a small working jib can be set to help balance the helm.
    Back in New England four years ago, Alert’s recently divorced skipper chanced to meet, and then quickly married, Maine artist Diane de Grasse. “At my age I couldn’t afford a long courtship,” he said with a chuckle. Within months of their meeting, Diane shocked her friends and family when she quit her job as a graphic designer for a newspaper and sailed off with Jim on a honeymoon cruise to the Bahamas. “I’ve always enjoyed sailing,” Diane said. “That was my first long sailing trip, and I found I love the cruising life.” Diane uses her artist’s talents to record their travels not in photos, but in dozens of beautiful watercolor paintings.
    Last edited by sailboy3; 11-26-2011 at 09:56 AM.

  38. #38
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    cont. from last post...

    In May 2000, Jim and Diane departed Maine for a cruise in Europe. Remembering well his previous passage across the storm-plagued North Atlantic, the now older and wiser sailor shipped Alert as deck cargo from Halifax to Liverpool. “The shipping costs were under $4,000, and we were also pressed for time to make the Brest 2000 classic-boat festival in early July,” Diane said.
    From Cornwall, Alert sailed to Brest, France, in company with a group of boats from Ireland celebrating the historic Celtic voyages to Brittany. As Diane recalled, “A TV crew met us as we arrived in Brest to join nearly 3,000 other boats. That night, the festival organizers fed 20,000 sailors in tents. A few days later, we sailed with a fleet of over 2,000 boats to Douarnenez in a spectacular scene of uncountable sails from horizon to horizon.”
    The couple then harbor-hopped down the Bay of Biscay and along the coasts of Spain and Portugal. As they cruised into the Mediterranean, Diane expressed her interest in archeology and architecture through her paintings and sketches of historic sites in the Balearics, Malta, Sardinia and Tunisia.

    Alert's sunken foredeck allows clearance for lowering the mast.
    In the autumn of 2001, the Melchers departed the Med to cross the Atlantic to the Caribbean via the Canary and Cape Verde Islands. They arrived in Martinique on February 4 after a blustery 19-day passage with winds mostly in the 25-30 knot range. Their Autohelm Tiller Pilot was frequently overwhelmed, and the resulting accidental jibes led to frayed nerves as well as broken battens and chafe on sails.
    “To handle the strong winds, we reefed and then scandalized the main by lowering the gaff’s peak halyard,” Jim said. “Even using a working jib, we had excessive weather helm. When a lazy jack broke, it dumped the whole works – boom, gaff, and sail – into the sea. It’s turned out a rather poor rig for offshore. I’m ready to convert it to traditional full Chinese-junk rig, which I believe will work better.”
    Despite the rough weather, they managed to mark the halfway point of their crossing with a champagne party. They even put a note and a $5 bill in a bottle and tossed it overboard for some lucky beachcomber to perhaps marvel at one day.
    Due to a seized transmission, they made landfall in a cove on the windward coast of Martinique without the aid of their engine. Once repairs were made, they continued island-hopping through the Caribbean, reaching the Dominican Republic in April. “We’ve enjoyed touring the island, especially the ancient capitol of Santo Domingo, but now it’s time to push on towards home in Brunswick, Maine,” Diane said, adding, “And I promised my dad I’d be back in time for his 90th birthday.”
    From Luperon, Alert sailed swiftly through the Bahamas, made landfall at Beaufort, North Carolina, and then "drove" up the Intracoastal Waterway as winds were generally unfavorable for continuing an outside passage. From Cape May, they pressed on outside, ducking into Shinnacock, Long Island, to avoid a gale before heading for the Cape Cod Canal and familiar waters. Two years after beginning their Atlantic circuit, Alert's anchor went down in Merriconeag Sound, Maine, on May 22, 2002. Within a few weeks of settling back into their home ashore, Jim and Diane made plans to get back on the water and cruise the coasts of Maine and Nova Scotia through September. Their next goal is to cruise through the Great Lakes and down the Mississippi to the Gulf Coast.
    At a time of life when most sailors their age are cataloging their excuses for giving up ocean voyaging for a less risky sedentary life ashore, the Melcher’s leave no time to regret missed opportunities and, by their steadfast adventuring, continue to inspire everyone they meet.
    Last edited by sailboy3; 11-26-2011 at 09:57 AM.

  39. #39
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Saylas' boat in post 14 is the closest to what I have in my head.
    For me, harder bilge WO the board. A little more beam. Strip planked, no frames. gaff sloop, smallest diesel, primus, jerry cans fuel and sweet water,no fridge or head, sitting headroom, minimum cockpit, nice awnsl',.
    If a chap is not fit @60, then I do not think he can play this game.
    "Alert" above is a character cruiser, and a real boat, but @ 33', she is not so small.
    This is a 21'er I sailed and lived on for 2 years.(1977 1978) She was a converted island boat, a lousy sailer, but comfy . The main "seat" is the cockpit.
    I could take another boat like this and modify her again , knowing what I know now and make a better performing boat.

  40. #40
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    I didnt say that the boat had to be trailerable in the normal sense, but was intimating that the cost of getting it to the water from the building site had to be included in the budget.
    I do think though that within a 12 month afloat voyage it may be an advantage for the understanding wife to be able to drag a trailer to the voyage end point to bring her dearly beloved and his pet home again ( a rented car moving trailer with a temporary cradle would be one solution) .

    Displacement would need to be such that the boat is capable of carrying sufficient stores and possessions to keep our customer reasonably happy for those 365 days, comfort is not just a physical thing, its a state of mind as well.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayla View Post
    Perhaps the balance of displacement/comfort/seaworthiness vs displacement effecting trailer cost might be an initial consideration.
    At 8' beam, the standard initial capsize screening formula sees 1850kg as being acceptable - so is 2T displacement and trailer capacity in order? Or is water ballast required?

    sayla
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  41. #41
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Some good thinking here, perhaps add this to Kenjamins comment about a "Super SCAMP with the last four foot of boat simply missing"
    There are some unconventional constraints within this design brief and that suggests unconventional solutions.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by openboater View Post
    To maximize comfortable living space for the long periods of time on the boat, I recommend a totally enclosed boat. virtually no outside decks for an evening stroll. It will probably need a small deck aft to play with the outboard and gas tanks and Honda genset, but the rest is all inside. Think of it as one of the modern unsinkable bright orange lifeboats, but with a bright and airy feel. lots of Lexan, thick lexan that can take a real beating. opening windows to let mother nature in without having to go outside. Yea I know thats gonna' be real hard to design, but I have faith in you.

    Entertainment center will consist of Sirius XM radio (cost $149, $95 yearly subscription) so I can listen to the Yankee games no matter where I am. USB cellular modem for the internet and a laptop and cellphone. I currently use this set up with a 52" cellular whip antenna and the reception is amazing. I'm not a Kindle of Nook user so I'll need a dozen books.

    Galley - 12v fridge so I can always have a cold glass of water, or occassional beer and sandwich meat. Single burner stove is fine , Must have coffee in the morning so malita is the most effecient. French press it too hard to clean. Simple but tasty meals can be made with a frypan or boiling water. Place to hang the garlic and dried hot peppers. Simple tiny sink with hand pump, do dishes in plastic dish pan. no domestic hot water system other than putting a pot on the stove.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  42. #42

    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by Chip-skiff View Post
    If I was planning to be offshore for extended periods, without any chance to walk or otherwise shake out, I would have be very careful about posture and also do yoga or some other exercises— where on a craft this small is there enough flat space for this? If I spent the year coasting and could get off for a ramble, that'd allow a more-confined living space.

    .
    You know,, there's a way to get enough space for exercise and even walking around a bit on a 20 foot boat. Make it a catamaran with open bridgedeck.



    This boat's individual hulls are a little under 4 feet wide, so both hulls would fit in half a garage.

    The problem with a multihull for this purpose is that the amount of supplies you can carry, since limited load-carrying capacity is the major drawback of mulihulls. But maybe for a coastal cruise, this wouldn't be a huge drawback-- and you can still carry enough supplies for modest blue water passages-- across the Gulf maybe, or down through the Caribbean, where passages of more than a few days are unlikely.

    To me, the biggest factor in a boat of this approximate size is comfort, and in my opinion a cat wins in every aspect except internal volume. There is certainly comfort in the longer sightlines and less claustrophobic interiors of monohulls... but are these comforts enough to compensate for the kind of black and blue cruising that a small monohull at sea delivers?

  43. #43
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    A couple of points, the constraints on the building space are a reality for an awful lot of people, add to those the limits that the timeframe and the finances put on the project and the bigger boats are just out of reach in all three ways. Every time the boat gets bigger the project gets outside those limits in more ways than one.

    Over on the Microcruising forum T Lee expounds the benefits of a cruiser with about 2 cubic metres of space, and proposes making a living working within that space. With respect, I could not do that, and for our hypothetical customer we need to do a lot better. I never said this was an easy one, there are very few if any existing boats that would fit this brief, the nearest that I've seen being a long cabin version of the Hartley 18.
    It needs thinking outside the box rather than within ones existing prejudices, thats what produced SCAMP which is well on its way to becoming a cult boat.

    A Bolger Micro or long Micro would work,especially the one with the big cabin and I admire the design but there are aspects of the boat which I'd like to improve upon, especially in view of the skinny waters that would be attractive to a cruise of this kind.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by michigangeorge View Post
    I'm a very high mileage 63 yrs and 20' of anything is just not large enough in ANY manner except for the rig size. I would want a real bed with a real mattress, a man sized elongated bowl head with a large holding tank, an adequate galley, comfortable sitting space for at least two, large fuel and water tankage and tons of stowage space. If you require the boat be constructed in a one car garage I would suggest we build it in two pieces and assemble it outside. How about a 38' x 9' light displacement motorsailer with a sheltered helm, counter-balanced tabernackled mast(s), inside ballast and plenty of power. And please give us old folks something easy to move around on - wide, clear decks with lots of waist high handholds (no silly life-lines), easy boarding from docks or water and a minimum of stairstepping. And make it cheap and pretty while you're at it :-)
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  44. #44
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    All good thoughts Norm, and 20 days is plenty. We're not talking solo around the world here and three weeks between restocking stores is quite adequate.
    The comfort issues are very pertinent, I dont mind some discomfort for a weekend if the sailing is great, but, for example I'd hate to be trapped aboard a slender hulled multihull for a week of wet weather, one with a full bridgedeck cabin maybe but not an open decked one.

    Those who nominate a decent bed, and the other items mentioned by Norm are very much on the right track.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by outofthenorm View Post
    Great thread John. I too am your target for this boat, and it's something I've thought about often. For me, there are 3 areas of concern: creature comfort; contact with the world, and capacities.

    For comfort, I agree that a proper place to sleep, that doesn't have to convert to another use, and a proper seat for reading and pondering are key to success. The other thing is climate control: great positive ventilation so you can be comfortable closed up, a source of heat for cold wet days, an insulated hull so the cold of the water doesn't get you even when you're dry, and a comfortable place to pee and poop.

    Contact: I would want to have a computer and cell phone to back up VHF radio. All require electricity, so either good storage or generation ability is needed to support the devices for a sufficient period of time (see next point).

    Regarding capacities: I would be attracted to a solution that maximized the period of time I could be away from shore facilities. The ideal (for me) would be about 20 days of self-sufficiency: water, fuel, electricity, stores, holding tank capacity. The time could be spent sailing, at anchor, or any combination, but without access to services.

    - Norm
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  45. #45
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Jim Melchers Bolger designed Manatee is one of the great solutions to the needs of a cruising skipper, but to build such a boat within the skills, the budget, and the space is not a realistic proposal. There are several other suggestions on this thread that are in the same category, good boats but outside the limits of the brief.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  46. #46
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    A further question: will our hypothetical builder/sailor be accompanied by his indulgent wife on the cruise? For the entire time? For short stretches?

    A craft that is habitable for one can be maddening if both people have to shuffle positions in order for one of them to move about the cabin, or go to the cockpit or the head. That is, off-centre seating with a clear area opposite might be a good idea if she's a boat-for-two. Given the shoal draft requirement, the available space for construction and the designs mentioned, I was thinking she would have either a centreboard or leeboards. Those centreboard/table setups with fixed benches/berths to either side can make this problematical. A table hinged at the edge of the board case to fold down with a central fiddle/divider/caddy could be a good thing.

    Another thought— if the boat is to be a solo cruiser, the head (an Airhead toilet that needs no holding tank?) need not be enclosed, except with a curtain.
    Last edited by Chip-skiff; 11-26-2011 at 12:45 PM.

  47. #47
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    so... it's between 30 and 60 days across the Atlantic Ocean in a boat like we're considering... whats this guy going to be doing with the other 300 days?? how far is this customer going?

    a do it your selfer whos going to spend 2 years on the project should be able to spend the two weekends necessary to errect a large temporary shelter rather than confining his boat to the artifically small size of a garage...
    and some one living in a planed community that doesnt allow "stuff" outside on your property isnt the type of self sufficient doit yourself kind of guy who would consider building their own boat.

    Centennial is looking pretty good compared with the other suggestions, relatively light displacement, trailerable, and an OK sail boat when you are sick of trying to live aboard a 20 footer... I'd bet any sane person (average guy) would be so sick of living aboard a 20' boat after a week, the ability to use the boat as a daysailer would be greatly appreciated...

    I know a guy who has gone sailing every day +- for over three years... he day sails.
    He uses his 20+-' sail boat for sailing and his bed for sleeping... he's found it works out far better that way than the other way around.

  48. #48
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    On the initial brief it's tough to see past the Wharram Tiki 26.

    But if the poor benighted dreamer had the wits god gave a housebrick - he'd be buying and fettling, not building from scratch - Folkboat, Contessa 26 - new deck and house on a secondhand soling?????
    Complicated problems usually have simple solutions - which are almost always wrong.

  49. #49
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Some good thinking here, perhaps add this to Kenjamins comment about a "Super SCAMP with the last four foot of boat simply missing"
    There are some unconventional constraints within this design brief and that suggests unconventional solutions.

    John Welsford
    In the double garage it probably wouldn't be a Super SCAMP's length that would be the problem. It would be the beam which may want to go 9' or so? Maybe one could take the wife for a test ride in a used, six speed automatic, turbo-charged Mini Cooper and then suggest she might want to trade in the family minivan for one. That would free up a lot of space in the garage for the boat build.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 11-26-2011 at 01:33 PM.

  50. #50
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    Default Re: Minimum for 12 months afloat

    My personal thoughts would be for a big small boat. Say...22 ft (a temp extension could be tacked onto the garage for this if need be...but my garage is 22 ft long). I would want a biggish cabin for lounging and hiding from the weather but a decent cockpit is desirable too. With a rear locker and bridge deck I could live with 5 or so ft of foot space. A cabin roof of almost 10 ft gives a good sized interior...and still leaves a foredeck for a small hatch and perhaps a chain locker. I would want to have an easy motion but with enough ballast to keep things upright. I have been playing around for a couple of hours with this and I think this would be a nice big little boat to start the planning process with.

    Displacement (2' 1.5" draft) 1950 lbs
    Displacement (2' 3" draft) 3500 lbs (yep...she only gains 1.5" with an additional 1550 lbs load)
    800 lbs of lead in the keel, a couple hundred more under the sole if desired.
    Length 22 ft
    LWL (light)19ft 8in
    LWL (heavy) 19ft 10.5in
    Beam Max. 8ft 6in
    Beam Waterline 6ft 4in (light)
    Beam waterline 6ft 9in (heavy)
    Cabin Sole to (mildly crowned cabin roof) 5ft 2in (cabin sole measured up 6in from bottom of Vee for 2 ft sole width
    There is enough room for a small inboard under a bridge deck/companionway steps.
    There would be plenty of room for 2 large quarter berths or 1 and dedicated nav station, room for an
    enclosed head, hanging lockers, small galley and heating stove plus plenty of under cockpit seat storage and other nooks and crannies.
    Any number of different rigs could be fit on it, especially if a Bow Sprit was added. A Gaff Yawl rig with the same sized mizzen and Jib would be a very balanced and flexible rig.

    anyhoo...here is the sketch I did with my ideas for boat in question (just the hull...I haven't had the time to do the interior), The sketch is rough and I am sure everyone will spot things that aren't 100% but this is just to give an idea...:







    Last edited by Lewisboater; 11-26-2011 at 01:41 PM.
    Steve Lewis
    Formerly Lewisboats (don't try to change your email address!)

    http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks

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