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Thread: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

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    Default 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    A picture of the subject boat in the Scow Schooner thread got me interested in this design so i got out my copy of Boatbuilding and scanned the drawings.



    This design incorporates 2 features I like, a pram bow and leeboards (maybe I have Dutch blood?).



    Out of curiosity I thought I would loft it at 1 inch equals 1 foot and possibly make a model. I'm having a little trouble deciphering a couple of the dimensions.



    It looks like the 7" and 12 3/4" dimensions locate the point where the straight part of the skeg along the bow turns in to the curved portion along the bottom, but I'm not sure what the 18" and 6 1/4 " dimensions are telling me

    Anyway it's a neat little design and if anyone can help me understand these dimensions, I'd appreciate their help.

    Thanks,
    Perry
    Last edited by P-man; 11-20-2011 at 05:06 PM.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by P-man View Post
    A picture of the subject boat in the Scow Schooner thread got me interested in this design so i got out my copy of Boatbuilding and scanned the drawings.


    Out of curiosity I thought I would loft it at 1 inch equals 1 foot and possibly make a model. I'm having a little trouble deciphering a couple of the dimensions.



    It looks like the 7" and 12 3/4" dimensions locate the point where the straight part of the skeg along the bow turns in to the curved portion along the bottom, but I'm not sure what the 18" and 6 1/4 " dimensions are telling me

    Anyway it's a neat little design and if anyone can help me understand these dimensions, I'd appreciate their help.

    Thanks,
    Perry
    The 18" defines where the slope of the bow transom crosses the waterline. 7" defines the height of the junction of the keel line with the transom. I think that the 6 1/4" is where the corner of the outer keel and outer stem would be if it were not rounded off.
    It really is quite difficult to build an ugly wooden boat.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Nicely done! Took me a second to catch what you meant for the 18" line until I saw that little tick line on the waterline.
    Steve Lewis
    Formerly Lewisboats (don't try to change your email address!)

    http://angelfire.com/ego/lewisboatworks

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Thanks Nick. So the 12 3/4" is where the outer face of the bow would cross the waterline (like the 18" dimension)?

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by Lewisboater View Post
    Nicely done! Took me a second to catch what you meant for the 18" line until I saw that little tick line on the waterline.
    yeah those tick marks are at an angle aren't they. I missed that. thanks again.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    I have 3 photos of this scow on my website.

    Forget the lower grade stuff that I drew, but just look at the photos. Note that this model has an extended cabin. I think the story was that it came from Alaska, got beached at one time, some fellow tried to drag it up the beach with a tractor, and tore the bow transom off. My apologies that I can no longer recall the original link, but something is better than nothing

    http://www.tacking-outrigger.com/motorcruiser.html

    I have Chappelle's book. It is a pretty good read.

    Note that this scow might be a nice boat, but it is very small for a liveaboard. Tad Roberts Harry Sailing scow at 26ft would work, however I think I am telling you something that you already know.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    here's the original website. http://thegreatsea.homestead.com/boat.html

    yes, it's certainly no liveaboard, but might make a nice weekend camp cruiser/gunkholer. i like your motor cruiser design.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Do you have a enlarge schetch of the mast retractable swing. Looks like a trailerable design. Very nice drawings.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Do you have a enlarge schetch of the mast retractable swing. Looks like a trailerable design. Very nice drawings.
    here's a close-up of the tabernacle:



    this is the leeboard pivot setup:



    and a couple of other sections and details:






    Yes, i think it would be a good trailerable design. i wonder if it would need any internal ballast. i haven't seen any mentioned in the drawings.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    there's also a drawing for an interesting outboard bracket design:



    the motor would obviously have to be very light.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    They are nice boats these scows or schouw in Dutch. You can sail in very shallow waters. Here is a real nice example of a traditional dutch (oak) schouw.
    Check out www.houtenschepen.nl and click on accasions and you will find some more examples.





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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    For $10 each you can get the 2 drawings in the book at their original 3/4in.= 1 ft. scale from the Smithsonian . Might be fun to have ,and sharper .

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    thanks for the website dutchpp. i noticed several 7.50 meter long boats with an interesting mast tabernacle hatch arrangement.



    thanks for the tip Bill. i noticed they were listed in the catalog. i'll probably order them.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    well apparently a kajuitschouw is what I want. i wonder if i could find plans in English. a 7.5 meter boat with a little diesel inboard would be just about right.

    thanks again everyone.

    perry

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    That is ..well the most interesting yolk-Tabernacle swing mast set up I have ever seen. It could be secured directly into the floor/keel. A much better arrangemant than on top of the cabin roof that some designs have. ie.. the Oughtred Grey Seal, where the tabernacle is on top the cabin roof; and is a little awkward looking. imho.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Perry, I searched some dutch sources, al lot of plans available in the musea, most of them are unreadable on screen. Perhaps this one is an option, google:
    scheepsbouwtekening van de zeeschouw zilvermeeuw. You'll get a couple of hits from the lines, the construction plan and sailplan. You can zoom in, this one seems to be readable, perhaps it helps you.
    The tabenacle construction is quite common for dutch traditional ships, the main advantage you can lower the mast by hand, the lead on the base of the mast counterbalances the weight of the mast. This is usefull when you have to pas a lot of low bridges, which is quite common over here. The lead can act as a bit of ballast as well. Main disadvantage is that the hatch ( which is called utwip in the frysian language) is a bit prown? to leakage. I will check my librairy for some suitable drawings ( I can't find them at this moment) I'm sure I must have some examples with inboard engines, I'm not sure if it are design's in wood or steel, I' let you know.

    Peter

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    And a source for some genral information on zeeschouwen ( build for coastal waters), you can change the dutch language into english.

    http://www.zeeschouw.info/index.php?...d=12&Itemid=29

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    thank you Peter. that is very kind of you. the counterbalance on the mast would certainly be useful if raising and lowering the mast a lot, but i can see why that hatch would be difficult to seal.

    perry

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Dutchpp, do you know if the originals were cross-planked (which I think would be the typical US solution) or planked longwise like a dory?

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Truly fascinating trhead.......looked at www.houtenschepen.nl......really gripped by two varieties especially...Tussen punter and Gieterse punter......would any Dutch speakers here on the forum be able to give a translation of both types. I love leeboards and it makes so much sense to tumble home on the sheer strake and append the leeboards there.

    Best,
    David
    Live and let live

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Perry, Dory style longitudinal planking. It took some time but I found a website with descent pictures of a rebuild of an old smaller type of schouw. Check out http://oudeliefde.info/kadots.html (oude liefde = old love, must be a clapton fan)
    Building material = European oak, check out the picture right under, the wire is used to figure out the correct angle for the leeboards.
    David I will check the website and give you a quick and dirty translation

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    try this David: http://translate.google.com/translat...26prmd%3Dimvns

    you can paste your link into google and then it will translate the page for you.

    Quote Originally Posted by David Geiss View Post
    Truly fascinating trhead.......looked at www.houtenschepen.nl......really gripped by two varieties especially...Tussen punter and Gieterse punter......would any Dutch speakers here on the forum be able to give a translation of both types. I love leeboards and it makes so much sense to tumble home on the sheer strake and append the leeboards there.

    Best,
    David

  23. #23

    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    I love this boat! Maybe I am partial to shoal draft leeboarders.

    I was just doing a quick loft and notice that there is a bust in the drawings in the bow area. The Body Plan at the bow transom is about six inches more narrow than the same portion of the boat in the top view. Never-the-less, that could be worked out in the lofting...


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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    David,
    punters are based on the saxon style (german infuence) of boatbuilding, so sharp bows and flat bottoms instead of the flat bows and bottoms ( scows) or round ends and bottoms( boeiers, frysian yachts, lemsteraken etc) they were traditionally build in the province of Overijssel in the eastern part of the netherlands. This province was mainly swamp in the old day's ( think Everglades, or Louisianna swamps, with a Maine type of wheather) with a couple of larger lakes.
    Punter were used by farmers, fishers and for general transport in a community wich was surrounded by water.
    If you check out Giethoorn via Google you'll get a nice impression of the present looks.
    The Gieterse punter ( yes from Giethoorn) is the main model. LOA 6,5 m (19-20ft), width 1,5 meter (5ft), draft <1 ft.
    The punter is build in a relatively simple way, by piecing together wide planks of oak. The bottom consist of 3 planks of oak connected by pine pins, in these pins ( from the other side) small oak sharpend pins are rammed in, to lock up the larger pine pins. When wet these pins bond together the bottom planks. So no iron, steel or bronze screws or bolts are needed. When labour was cheap ( Overijssel was a poor province in the old days) this was the cheepest and the moast durable way to build a boat.
    The sides of the boats are formed from two wide oak planks which are bended into shape by use of fire ( inside plank) and water ( outside) and by connecting weigths to the planks. The builders check the bending, sweep and twist by comparing the plank with a long bronze rod which is bended in the required way. The real experts do it by eye. This process needs a lot of skills, even in the Netherlands there are only a few builders left who can do this properly. On these sides the sheerstrake is fitted ( indeed with tumblehome) which helps the leeboard to point out in an angle, so when healing over in the wind the leeboard takes a vertical position in the water. Punters are suited for sailing, rowing and puntering ( with a boom) and can sail almost everywhere. The family:

    Gieterse punter: 6,5m, 1,5m, 0,2m, when sailing they use a "spriettuigage"(see drawing on the website), a bit like a luggersail, no jib.
    Tussenpunter: a bit larger and a bit more seaworthy( stiffer, stability) 6,6m, 1,7-1,8m, 0,2m
    Some punters wich are named by the place where they were widely used, kamper punter ( in the estuary of a large river, de IJssel), beulakkermeer punter ( a lake), higher sides for rougher waters.
    The noordwesthoek ( northwestcorner) punter is suited for the rougher water of dutch coastal inshore seas 7,2, 2,1, 0,2 meter.
    Finally the so called sea punters wich are even longer ( still a shallow draft) up to 9 meters. Some tough dutchman use them to make long trips along the Dutch an German coast and the Frysian island on the Waddensea (check out the Riddle of the Sands thread elsewhere, the story is located in this area)
    The building method is comparable with the Gieterse punter.
    All punters use leeboards, round boards for shallow waters, longer so called sea leeboards for deeper waters. Usually no engines, brute muscle and sailpower.

    Peter

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    thanks for the link, dutchpp. i have a question about one of the pictures i don't know if you can answer or not.



    is there a bevel on the edges of those planks? it looks like that plank is shaped /__/

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    thanks Bruce. those are very nice. is that done in Freeship? i downloaded it, but haven't used it much yet.

    perry

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    No Perry, that's parralax, only a slight bevel for caulking (oakum and caulkingstuff) the end part of the plank is bevelled to the transom. Like this:
    ______/

    Indeed nice digitalized plans! Keep preparing for the real thing ( build it!)

    Peter

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Peter, so very kind of you to give that fascinating background. I am currently reading "Island at the Center of the World" which tells the story of the Dutch colony here, including the New Amsterdam original settlers, early 17th century. I imagine that punters and scows once sailed North River (now known as the Hudson River) and the Bay (now known as NY Harbor).

    I sail very much here in a place named Barnegat, originally Barndegat (if I am spelling that correctly), of Dutch origin. Dutch explorer Adrian Block toured this coast approx 4 centuries ago. It's largely shallow and well suited to the Dutch scow or punt. As a dedicated canoe sailor, using only leeboards, I am really enjoying knowing more about these traditional boats of the Netherlands.

    Since the original poster focused this thread on the Chappelle scow, perhaps I should refrain from sending it more in the direction of punters. Maybe we should start a separate thread? In the interim I am going to educate myself more.

    One thing I like very much is how the sheerstrake provides more freeboard and allows the leeboard to approach vertical as the boat is sailed to a proper heel. I imagine that having the leeboard mount on the sheerstrake minimizes turbulence at the mount, which is something that can be annoying when using a leeboard thwart at gunwale level on an open Canadian style canoe.

    VTY,
    David
    Live and let live

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Quote Originally Posted by David Geiss View Post
    Peter, so very kind of you to give that fascinating background. I am currently reading "Island at the Center of the World" which tells the story of the Dutch colony here, including the New Amsterdam original settlers, early 17th century. I imagine that punters and scows once sailed North River (now known as the Hudson River) and the Bay (now known as NY Harbor).

    I sail very much here in a place named Barnegat, originally Barndegat (if I am spelling that correctly), of Dutch origin. Dutch explorer Adrian Block toured this coast approx 4 centuries ago. It's largely shallow and well suited to the Dutch scow or punt. As a dedicated canoe sailor, using only leeboards, I am really enjoying knowing more about these traditional boats of the Netherlands.

    Since the original poster focused this thread on the Chappelle scow, perhaps I should refrain from sending it more in the direction of punters. Maybe we should start a separate thread? In the interim I am going to educate myself more.

    One thing I like very much is how the sheerstrake provides more freeboard and allows the leeboard to approach vertical as the boat is sailed to a proper heel. I imagine that having the leeboard mount on the sheerstrake minimizes turbulence at the mount, which is something that can be annoying when using a leeboard thwart at gunwale level on an open Canadian style canoe.

    VTY,
    David
    David, i don't mind a drift into punters at all. i'm finding the whole discussion very interesting. and thanks again dutchpp for the explanation.

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http://www.punterwerf.nl/&act=url

    Have to go to submenu entitled BOATS, then to further sub menu WOODEN BOATS/PUNTER

    Hi P Man.....thanks. Here's an interesting page of a prominent builder of punters. Along the left column, you'll see likes for a number of punter styles. Myself, I find that the slender editions of approx 6 meters interest me most. I think that a tent over a nice punter could make a fabulous camp cruiser. It seems as of the dominant rig is the sprit sloop. Wonder of there is any precedent for a gaff or marconi rigged sloop? Also, seems as most are built of solid wood but getting suitable stock for those garboard planks (if that's what they are called) could be tough. Cypress in your neck of the woods could be good for the bottom? Plywoood construction?

    Dutch PP...is there a recognized "best" text covering traditional small boats of the Netherlands?

    Best,
    David

    Best,
    David
    Live and let live

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    hi David, great website, thanks. yes, it looked like they had several designs that could make nice sail/oar camp cruisers. i only saw finished boats for sale. do they sell plans also?

    if i build one, it'll be solid wood. yes, cypress is usually available locally, but from what i've read, the new growth wood is not nearly as rot resistant as the old growth, which is usually only available as reclaimed lumber. i was thinking about using sassafras, which is also fairly common. i've read some good things about it here and elsewhere.

    for now, i think i'll continue making a model of this 22 ft. design. brucehallman has already discovered a lofting issue that will have to be worked out and since i wouldn't have the support of a NA, working out issues on a scale level first makes sense.

    take care,
    perry

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    David I'm at work now.I will answer your request later today.
    Peter

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    Live and let live

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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    video of a botter construction.


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    Default Re: 22 Ft. Dutch Scow Sloop from Chapelle's Boatbuilding

    David,

    interesting Barndegat used to be part of the water on wich the northern part of the capital of the Netherlands, Amsterdam, is build ( called "het IJ" ), it is part of an industrialized zone now. I'm living roughly 25 km west of this location, it's a small world.

    You should know that the Netherlands in the 16-17th century was half water half land, almost every region had an special type of boat wich was designed to fit the specific local circumstances. Most boatstypes which still excist today had their origins in these types of boats. The simple task of describing all these boats (think hundreds of different types) takes a mans live. There is a dutchman who has done this: Mr. G. J. Schutten deliverd a study called Verdwenen schepen ( disappeared ships) Subtitle: De houten kleine beroepsvaartuigen, vrachtvaarders en vissersschepen van de lage landen (the wooden small professional vessels, freighters and fishingships of the low countrys) a 500 page study in which he describes all these types, a lot of pictures, drawings etc. Unfortunately it is mainy in the Dutch language ( some summary's in English and the description of the figure's drawings and pictures in English). The book is still available in the Netherlands.
    Another great book on the main Dutch traditional ships is Ronde en platbodemjachten (round and flatbottomed yachts) from Mr. Dr. T. Huitema, this book is written in Dutch, al lot of pictures an line- and constructiondrawings. It describes in great detail the history of the specific designs. This book is still available in the Netherlands.
    There are a lot of books available which zoom in on a specific type of traditional ship (sorry in dutch)
    So they're all a bit difficult to use if you don't speak dutch. But don't worry I have most of these books in my librairy
    What I can do is prepare a limited overview of the most popular dutch traditional shiptypes, with basic specifications, drawings and pictures, this will take some time , on request of the WB community I could zoom in on a specific type.

    Peter

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