This new ship here is fitted according to the reported increase of knowledge among mankind. Namely, she is cumbered end to end with bells and trumpets and clocks and wires. It has been told to me she can call voices out of the air or the waters to con the ship while her crew sleep. But sleep though lightly. It has not yet been told to me that the sea has ceased to be the sea.--Rudyard Kipling
Thank you for the thread, and you sure produced a nice boat at the end of it! I do think you don't need the end plates on the rudder, you'll find that much of your steering is with the sails, anyway, and reducing wetted surface is always good.
She sure looks nice!
what a joy, well done johnno
Indeed she is John! A heart felt congrats for such a lovely and successful launching! What a treat to have the designer there too! Special in so many ways, that is.
When I first saw this picture, it appeared for the briefest of moments, like you were kneeling on a windswept frozen lake and SARAH WILSON was simply sitting ever so lightly atop the ice.Then I remembered ice is more often found in glasses down your way and that you are knee deep in wet water and SARAH WILSON is actually floating ever so lightly in it. Stunning!
As much as bright sunny day launchings, with perfect winds, make for some rather impressive pictures, I truly enjoy the tranquility sometimes afforded by calm, overcast day,launchings. The light is magic and the stillness allows the eyes to linger longer over the sweetest of lines.
May you and yours enjoy many a fine sailing adventure aboard her John and whatever you do.......don't forget your fans here on the WB forum! That is to say, kindly drop in once in awhile with pictures of those grand sailing moments.
from a fan!
Do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,do it,now!
This boat was built with ten thumbs.No fingers were harmed in anyway.
Here I yam awaiting Rick and his mate Dave to show up having just done a 700km drive, and I'm sure they'll be impressed! (It's a shame you won't be here for the EBS! I'm sure you would have trailed Sarah Wilson down just for the event!
It's been absolutely terrific to make contact again after all those years since we first met and what an astonishing little ship to have as the occasion!
I feel very fortunate to know that one day I'll be able to join you as your crew and head out on her, even if for the briefest turn.
Saving money today can be very costly tomorrow.
"If anything's worthwhile, it's not going to be given to you on a plate." Alan Bond.
Johno: Probably the most toxic posts in the history of the Wooden Boat Forum.............
The Mighty Pippin Mirror 30141
Looe Dragon KA93
Hi John, this is Rick. Congratulations! Glad she floats!! Looks great!!
Saving money today can be very costly tomorrow.
"If anything's worthwhile, it's not going to be given to you on a plate." Alan Bond.
Johno: Probably the most toxic posts in the history of the Wooden Boat Forum.............
The Mighty Pippin Mirror 30141
Looe Dragon KA93
Hat's off to you. Thanks for sharing the entire experience.
Simply stunning John.
Thanks for sharing.
Thanks again everyone for al the kind words. Hopefully taking her up to the Sandy Straits in a day or so for a sunny sail with wind!
She be a might purty ship thar lad! Off wid ya into the sunset an' be find'n yerself an adventure! Arrrrrrrgh.
Since I left me, my life has been so much more peaceful as I am not here to make myself feel stupid or silly for the things I've said or done.
I think Jeff will probably call in, in a day or two so don't go toooo far yet! But I'll bet you're dying to get up there!
As pretty as a picture and what conditions to launch and for taking the set photos for posterity, fantastic, not so good for trials but suitably calming for splash day.
Congratulations Johno great thread and a terrific build, now we look forward to the sailing reports.
Well, I have some good news to report, but sadly lacking in back-up pictures I'm afraid. I took the boat up to the Great Sandy Straits, where I found sunshine but the predicted 10 knts of breeze had turned into a very blustery 20-25 knots, with shifts 15 degrees either way. Also the tide was out during the middle of the day, so beach launching from Poona was not going to happen. I headed north to the next creek with an all tides boat ramp, and a new pontoon at the ramp to my great surprise. At least I didn't have to rig in the muddy creek beside the ramp.
We put in a clumsily tied reef which I'd never tried before, and also put the auxiliary on the untried bracket. We had six miles of very windy channel to negotiate, all pretty much upwind, with an average channel width of about 75' at the bottom of the tide, and perhaps three feet of water under us at the most.
I got sick of the outboard within 5 minutes, but it was terrific, sat just at the right height, and worked perfectly sitting in the dead forward position, and using the rudder for steering. Tilted up she sat beautifully clear of the water and about level with side deck height.
We must have thrown fifty or more tacks to work our way up that four miles of bendy stream but she never missed a tack, was fast, and a delight to sail. The board was only half way down because we were tacking out of 2 feet of water to get as much width out of the channel as possible, so going right up to the banks. The current of about 3 knots was against us all the way. I thought the little hand held gps wasn't showing tracks so I only left it on a while as we were coming back to the ramp, all downwind and reaching, so I can't confirm what sort of tacks we were cutting but I'd guess around 45 to 50. Shall have to confirm next sail in hopefully wider waters with less current.
It was a very nervy day but she came through with flying colours. As I was holding both mizzen sheet and tiller, and my deckie was on the main sheet and centreboard, and we were tacking every minute or so, it was hard to find a spare hand for any pics, save a couple of 'just to show it happened' shots. I was glowing by the time we had run and reached back to the ramp. No vices showed up for the whole afternoon, she was stable, tacked easily, gybed easily, the tiller is finger touch light, she sits beautifully up into the wind using just the mizzen, sails wing on wing very comfortably, gybes flat and calmly, and all in 20-25 knots, which is just great by me. And not a drop of water in the boat. Mind you the seas were flattened by the wind and lack of fetch. Once I get out in the straits themselves, that will be a whole other test.
Not very informative I'm sorry, but to prove we were there!
Don't worry John, a picture may tell a thousand words, but your description covers a dozen photos. You must be feeling very chuffed indeed!!!
I reckon you should shout yourself one of this little handy action videos, strap it to an oar or something and hang it out the back or off the bow or out on the outboard bracket and get a few underway videos...........(just for us mob who can't be there!!!).
"Be who you are and say what you feel...
Because those that matter...don't mind...
And those that mind.... don't matter."
We're the only species on earth that claims to have a god...and the only species on earth that lives as if we don't have a god.
(US Journalist Paul Kelly on advice from the crayfish)
I spent a bit of time today looking more closely at the reefing with some surprising results. I wanted to run through the process of reefing at sea. Again please forgive the messy lacing and rigging but I'm just trying to get the systems sorted.
For yesterday's sail, we reefed before we set out, but on the lawn today I rigged with full sail first, in order to test the reefing procedure.
For this rig, the clew should not move from its correct position, as the adjustment should be done at the snotter. First discovery then was that I should locate the correct position for the reefed clew, and add another hole in the boom at this point. When reefing, the original clew will stay attached to the end of the boom, but the new clew position will also be attached to this new second attachment point.
Second discovery. This can be achieved easily on the main, because the end of the boom is inboard, but can't be achieved on the mizzen as it is too far aft to reach. So I'm going to rig something like the jiffy reefing set up on my old sloop, with a permanent reefing line on the second clew of the mizzen, which will pull down the clew to the boom, and travel along the boom to a cleat in a position I can reach.
Discovery three. The lacing set up I've used gives enough clear space on the mast for the sails to be dropped to the reefed position without having to free the snotter from the mast. Usually, this is a difficulty on this type of rig, but as you can see in the pics, is not an issue in my case.
So the procedure is simply to slacken off the snotter, which enables the second clew to be laced down into position, manually or with the reefing line in the case of the mizzen. Then drop the sail to the reefed position, tension up the luff downhaul, and re-tension the snotter to get the sails flat. Nothing needs to be untied or unlaced for this to happen.
What I haven't checked totally but you can see I was experimenting with in the photos how much the boom should move relative to the mast, or, if you like, how its angle to the clew should alter when reefing. I have the mizzen boom too high in the pic, for example. Once I have that sorted, I can place a mark on the mast for the reefed and un-reefed locations, or just try to remember it.
So what seemed to be a difficulty I think has evaporated, and I can easily do this reefing underway.
I saw some lovely shots of a forumite's boat the other day who'd used tan coloured webbing and plastic side closing buckles as mast hoops. I quite like this idea, and might experiment with it. I thought a few days ago I would need it to allow the sails to drop without having to unlash the snotter. Now that I've discovered my lacing system eliminates that issue, it's not so critical, but I still might try them out if I can source the material. It would save the time of lacing on two sails.
I'll drill and epoxy those holes in the booms tomorrow and take them back to the boat on the weekend. Forecast is for 25 knots again, but at least the tide will be in.
All great and wonderful, but I would prefer bee blocks on the sides of the boom to another hole. That may be what you refer to for the mizzen, and the pressure on your booms may be low enough to make the hole ok. What you did using the clew outhaul and lashing the reefing clew to the boom looks good too. Simple. Much appreciate the description!
Couldn't you just let the snotter out a bit and bring the sail to the end of the boom?
And usually, we rig the booms on separate sides of the mast so that only one sail is creased by the boom on each tack.
I'm balanced on the 'which sides to rig the booms' question. I'm looking forward to getting up enough hours in the boat to see if there's any perceivable difference in performance. For the moment, from within the boat, or, as I was when she went out the other day, rigging from a pontoon on the starboard side, it's easier to do the both booms on the starboard side, and leaves me on a starboard tack when reefing. Not that many of the local fishermen would give me any more room one tack or another.
In fact, the more I look at those photos, I think I should move the hole in the boom more forward so that the bunched sail lies straight along the boom aft of the new clew position, which would
shorten the overlap of the boom on the mast a tad, whilst still leaving me plenty of adjustment. Or put another way, the mizzen boom looks like I've got it closer to where it should be than I have on the main boom.
Thad, I'm trying where possible not to attach extra things to the boom if I can help it, otherwise I agree with you.
But I shall explore all options. I had some more thoughts going to sleep last night about that reefing line, rigged in such a way that it would both bring the clew down onto the boom, and secure the bunched sail at the same time, which would be handy.
Last edited by johnno; 07-17-2012 at 07:11 PM.
Did you ever consider a wishbone boom John? It might involve a new set of problems but it's potentially a more secure setup. You could simply roll up the sail when reefing and use an outhaul setup. The boom could also be adjustable but that might be too complicated.
Hi Rick, yep the wishbone is not really a goer for many reasons.
I'm really talking fine tuning here, and getting the simplest system possible, because I'm a great believer in simple, quick and foolproof reefing systems. I also want to make the sails quickly and easily adjustable. I think the old fishermen would have thought the same way.
I had knowingly set her up with less than what was required rigging-wise on these first sails, to see how things went. For example, it's very common practice to have a thumb cleat on the mast to fix the position of the snotter. I didn't want to fix that on yet because I wasn't dead sure of its correct position and also I was hoping the simple looped rope around the mast would work. It did, so that's one less fitting, weak point, rot point, etc. And it's infinitely adjustable. It's the same now with the set-up down the other end of the boom. If I just end up with two holes, that sounds perfect. I'll have two thin (1 1/2" dia) straight booms, with no lumps or bumps on them, no fasteners, easily stowed in any position, nothing to grab or catch, and dead simple to maintain.
I think I'm almost there
I can't think of a better sharpie test than 50 tacks in 2 feet of water.
BTW, those long thin strips left over from the mast would make a nice laminated video camera staff.
Last edited by leaotis; 07-17-2012 at 08:23 PM. Reason: spelling
Yep, simplicity is great if you can achieve it - I just wondered if you'd considered a wishbone at all as they're very simple rigs. I think what you have looks great.
Rick, yes I guessed that's all you meant. Ross and I did discuss it, but the general feeling around the traps is that with timber spars, my kind of rig, size of sails, the wishbone is too complicated in its rig (esp to stop it twisting sideways), twice as heavy, and not as good at tensioning up the sail as a straight spar in compression. I think though that in larger hi-tech rigs and using composite materials (eg freedom yachts), the equation definitely starts to change in favour of the wishbone. Interestingly, I'd originally imagined this boat with a wishbone booms, though I hadn't put a lot of thought into it. I was just so used to seeing wishbone booms on leg o' mutton windsurfer rigs I guess.
On the other hand, as was brought up when chatting to Ross yesterday, lots of thought put into most traditional rigs will result in good simple solutions, despite all the prejudices that exist around the traps for and against each type. They mostly seem to need an open mind and the ability to adjust the solution to your individual example. Plus generally trying to match rig or hull to local conditions of course.
They raced and traded the different rigs and could tell no difference. I feel like there's gotta be some difference be but evidently it's not much.
I always try to remember this story when I look up at that huge crease made by the sprit on the stb tack.
Most of my sailing has been on very light, short sailboards. We use wishbones that are the lightest booms made, that don't twist at all, and are very adjustable. They put a lot of tension on the sail. But they're not made of wood, they're made to take different sails (rather than accommodate reefing) and the mast fittings are moulded to the particular size of mast that's generally used. And they're made for boards that plane all the time, including through gybes. I think it would be possible to use some of these principles and achieve a really good wishbone for a boat like John's - not heavy, and stiff. But I agree that it probably wouldn't be any more efficient in the long run than John's rig and it would certainly be an exercise in putting it together - you'd have to laminate the booms, etc., and the mast fitting would be tricky. John's rig is very fine in its simplicity and I reckon it looks great.
Rick what you say is dead right with respect to sailboards. To me the biggest issue is that on a sailboard, one holds the boom, and leans back on it, which automatically sets it laterally into a stable plane. The issue on a boat is that if the wishbone is only held by the block at the end of the boom and the mast attachment, it can easily rotate along its long axis, and wants to in order to balance itself. Hence most wishbones I have seen on boats need stays to keep them in the right lateral position. This is where some of the complexity lacking in sailboards starts.
However, you got me thinking what a thing it might be to use the windsurfer standing position pulling on the wishbone booms, and sail the boat like a tandem bicycle only it's a boat! Of course I find it's been done on a sailboard, but I'm not sure if on a boat. Gives a whole new meaning to hiking, let alone coordination.
John, modern sailboard boom attachments are not loose like the old Windsurfer attachments. They clamp the boom onto the mast and it can't rotate without crushing the mast. The sailor doesn't hold the boom in place - in fact the boom stays stable and the sailor is supported by it. The sailor can rake the sail fore and aft, and in and out, but can't rotate the boom at all.
In theory, you could have this setup and have the sheet attached to a central point right at the outer end of the boom. The boom wouldn't rotate, as long as you have the right setup clamping it to the mast.
Last edited by RFNK; 07-18-2012 at 03:30 AM.
Don't forget, the windsurfer mast has a flexible gooseneck attachment... so you can flip the sail to each tack or lay it down on the water, etc. If you attached a couple mast connections (goosenecks) two folks could easily use their harnesses and hang there powering the boat. When you want to stop.... let the back hand go and the sail flutters downwind... you could just lay the sails down like sailboarders do ... kinda inconvient I guess.
Love that beautiful sailboat. I have always liked sharpies.
Congrats Johnno, lookin good (you're a quick worker I must say)
- tacking in 2ft is surely the stuff of an independent sail boat - who needs oars?
the Straits sure seem to beckon - I was down at the northern northern end of Pumicestone passage and Bribie last week, and it looked absolutely ripe for a sharpie too
30-35 knots +..... Clew lashing had slipped a bit at this point, and we had no more adjustment left on the snotter, hence the baggy sail...not great for that wind. The Straits had a distinct washing machine feel to them.
Last edited by johnno; 07-21-2012 at 08:16 AM.
Studying Fraser Is. on google earth always reminds me of what you said about having Tempo delivered via container to.... somewhere up there... and flying up for long weekends. It excites my wife too.
Johnno, you got back alive, but what about a report about her handling despite the slipped clew, baggy sail and all. Sheesh! You're killing me here!!!!! I love the pic, btw. She looks good. I'd say cute, but "rugged" is a much better term, especially in those conditions.
I hope to get a little video up later today, but at the moment Youtube is trying to take the shakes out of it for me. I'm being plagued at the moment by the wrong tides and strong wind warnings. I'll just have to be patient. Today the winds are even stronger up here, but by the end of next week when they are predicted to drop, the tides will be late afternoon highs again.
Last Monday's sail with both sails in, both reefed, in 20+ was the best test and she handled perfectly. Yesterday in winds that were at least around 25+ but with frequent bursts up to 35 and more, we only put in the main, in the central mast step, and being anxious to get going before the tide dropped, I reefed/rigged her poorly again. With that badly shaped sail and a gusting wind, it was hard to pinch her up very high and keep some drive. As a result we sailed closer to reaches..I'm guessing about 60 degrees to the wind but it was hard to tell, it was shifting and gusting so much. Even from there, she showed her ability to tack easily and securely.
I'd placed another hole in the boom, I thought to match the reefed clew position, but somehow I got the sail on too loosely and ran out of snotter adjustment. I should have fixed it before I left the beach but I was keen to get going.
It was also the first test of the little outboard in a sea and wind, but she was fine and drove the boat easily into that sort of wind. Crew needed to move a little aft from normal sailing position to keep the prop from cavitating but there was no issue, so I think I've got that right.
One other issue emerged. The end of the boom, when the main is in the central mast step, just touches the top of the outboard when tacking. If you look closely in the video I'll post later, you'll see me lift it over the outboard. I could do that because I didn't really have the sail flattened out properly. I wouldn't have been able to lift it up like that if I had the sail really flattened out, because of the vanging effect of the foot of the sail in this rig. I am hoping that if I can get the boom a bit forward to get my snotter adjustment correct, it will also just move it forward of the outboard. But the first time it caught yesterday, things were looking a little hairy for a moment. It won't normally be a problem of course, with the main in the normal forward mast step, it's only an issue with the main in the central step. I am guessing if I stepped the mizzen there, it also wouldn't be a problem because of the slightly shorter boom. That will be worth checking on the front lawn today too.
Mack, sounds like a brilliant idea!!!!
Transport is a little tricky around here. We're about an hour south of Hervey Bay by road. We're also about two and a half hours (call it three with a snack stop) north of Brisbane. From the Sunshine Coast (Maroochydore) strip, it's a one and half to two hour drive north. Those are the closest airports. So for long weekends, that's not too bad with a hire car. There's some space here you could use for the boat until you find someone with a spare bit of shed or garage. I could ask around if you're interested. Shouldn't be too hard to find something up around here.
Very poor video, apologies, but best I have at the moment. Same sail as above, this was on the way out..about 25 knots but it built rapidly to 35 +.
Wow ! She is a slippery little thing isn't she John, that was a decent hatful of wind. I am SO looking forward to doing the same in JIM.
So, she works beautifully, the finish is perfect with a few minor bits of fettling to do. How will she go as you bone fishing platform? Nice and stable to stand and cast from?
Perfect is the enemy of good.
The boat looks great but I have to say I'd be looking at changing the rig - the sprit just seems so loose and clumsy to me. Why not just go with a boom? Easier reefing, much better sail shape and, I think, easier handling.
Rick, have a look at post #1254 and #1226. There ain't nothing loose or clumsy about that age old rig, and nothing wrong with the sail shape.
I'm just, as planned, working through the optimal locations for fittings and systems, before I start permanently attaching things. And I seem to be doing this in extreme conditions, just for added fun. First launching was in a zephyr. next two were in strong wind warning conditions. A bit of experimentation is inevitable with a new design that has never been through prototyping (this is the prototype) and is therefore without the years of development of established designs.
You could have a squiz here too : http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/catketch.htm
I'm sure you'll sort it out. I really enjoy sailing in strong wind - I find light wind a bit boring, so I guess I like fairly stiff setups - just my bias!
I have to tell you that you have got it wrong when it comes to your feelings about sprits. The sprit performs a number of functions, but the most important ones are: -
- vanging; and
- providing clew outhaul tension;
The sail-shaping capacity that this seemingly crude piece of equipment embodies is wonderfully sophisticated, yet simple - which is why people who understand the rig continue to use it to this day. I sail an International Finn (which is still theOlympic men's dinghy), and she has the sort of arrangement you describe i.e. a free-standing cat rig with a boom. The Finn is often referred to as the, "...iron-man boat...", and if you have ever sailed one you will know why!
Now the Finn has a lot of controls including an adjustable outhaul, and a vang. Both of these are necessary if you are going to sail properly, but they require a lot of complex running rigging and expensive equipment, and maintenance is required. The sprit and snotter does the work of both the outhaul and the vang, and does it using nothing more than a stick and a bit of string. There is no gooseneck, no traveller (the vanging effect renders it unneccessary), no outhaul slide and block, no 4 to 6-part vang tackle, no complex vang hardware and levers, and so on and so on....
When sailing a leg'o'mutton with a sprit, one should be prepared to adjust snotter tension frequently, just as one plays the main sheet. But that is what should be done with any rig, because rig adjustment is what brings a boat to life. It really irritates me to see people sailing around at classic boat regattas etc using beautiful boats and rigs, but not sailing correctly, and demonstrating appalling longitudinal trim. The correct use of boats is even more important than the building of them.
Regarding John's boat, she still needs some sorting out, but only in regard to the minor details of the reefing arrangement. The way I would reef is the old way, where the sprit moves further forward (past the mast) as the reefs are taken in. That means that the aft end of the sprit has only a single clew attachment point - usually a fork which engages a cringle - and the snotter is lengthened as reefing takes place. However, John's system will work fine as well, once he has the positioning of holes sorted out. Reefing a leg'o'mutton equipped with a sprit is not at all difficult.
Well, thanks to both of you, I look forward to seeing how it all performs and the process of tuning - I really like simplicity too!
The idea of running the sprit further past the mast for reefing makes sense to me too. I think you'd better do that John!
Rick, I'm reefing mine this way because I cannot reach the end of the mizzen boom from within the boat to reattach the reef clew/cringle as Ross describes. Okay for reefing on land, and for the main, but not for the mizzen. She'll be sorted soon.
Yes, I understand that. Couldn't you run a line with a couple of blocks along the sprit to haul it fore and aft across the mast?
I know you'll sort it out - you've done a great job of everything else, and I'm sure you'll get the rig running beautifully too.