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Thread: SCAMP envy/lust

  1. #36

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    ...speed...faster...speed
    If you want speed, neither SCAMP nor Oldshoe should be your choice in a 12 foot sailboat. Choose some unballasted boat that can get up on plane. Most of those tend to measure 16+ feet though.

    Now, with the given that these are short displacement boats, define 'performance'. Neither would satisfy you if speed is what you want. More meaningful as measures of 'performance' are looks, and comfort.

    SCAMP has 145 pounds of ballast and Oldshoe has 200 pounds. If acceleration is your concern, bear in mind that the mass of the crew and gear matters more than the mass of the boat, and Oldshoe can sail with 6 people aboard! (In a 12 foot boat, wow.) Definitely less acceleration than SCAMP which looks to hold 4 people max.

    Yes, you are right to consider beaching. The Oldshoe draws 16 inches of water, max at the stern, less in the bow. Knee deep. If there is a moderate slope to the beach, you can nose in. SCAMP draws only 7 inches of water, but with the larger cuddy forward, climbing in and out over the bow would be harder. Wet feet are likely with both boats.

  2. #37

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by htom View Post
    I would think that Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser would be a better fit to the comparison than Oldshoe. Has anyone ever built one? Is she only a cartoon?
    I have never heard of one built, but I bet that it has been built because of being published in the book. It is a gorgeous boat, though 13 feet 6 inches long. (Cat yawl rig too.) Not necessarily comparable to these 12 footers.


  3. #38
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    My mistake. I thought the JBC was another 12' pram.
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  4. #39
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    There is a picture around somewhere of a SCAMP sailing with three adults and two kids on board, and they werent cramped at all. Several people have commented that the boat is unusually roomy and comfortable, "feels like a much bigger boat" has been a common observation.
    Welsford puts a lot of time and effort into the proportions of seating and legspace, even to the extent of working out the perfect backrest angle for various seat heights and SCAMP seems to have benefited from this attention to detail.

    Damn, I wish I was a bit more mobile, that little boat would suit me fine.
    incidentally there is a rumour around that at Sail Oklahoma the Scamp proved to be one of the faster boats on a long beat to windward, that may have been the designer playing crafty with the windshifts but it does indicate that for a short fat boat with the simplest possible rig its a lot quicker than you'd expect.

    Cedric

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    The question that comes to my mind when I think of the 12 foot SCAMP is how it might compare to the 12 foot Oldshoe. Above water, the SCAMP seems to have a smaller cockpit, and a larger storage cuddy than Oldshoe. Also, above water, SCAMP is much more pretty.

    The balanced lug sailrig on SCAMP is well loved. Ditto for the cat yawl rig of Oldshoe.

    Below water, both of these boats have essentially bent flat plate bottoms. With SCAMP using a pivoting fin for lateral plane, and Oldshoe using a long latent fin keel (with lead ballast).

    Here is an isometric study I did comparing the underwater shapes of these two similar sized boats...


  5. #40
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    As with all designers, there are the occasional customer whom, in the midst of a stressful discussion, you'd like to disappear or to attempt to catalogue all of the vein patterns in the leaves of the Quercus Albus , but yes, I dont like drowning customers, have not yet, and hope that it never happens.
    SCAMP is a real attempt to make a boat less likely to do that than some.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I paraphrase, but JW once said he doesn't like drowning his customers. Probably said it more than once.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  6. #41
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    The Scamp design was commissioned by Small Craft Advisor from the very outset with camp-cruising in the Pacific Northwest in mind. I think she is admirably well suited to that purpose if a minimalist micro-boat is what you're restricted to. The Oldshoe was designed more for casual, low-stress daysailing I think. Neither one is really my cup of tea, but they both seem like useful boats within the limitations of their own particular sets of compromises. Going longer would make both of them better at almost everything except for the cost and the weight and the storage space requirements. . .but then you'd no longer have a 12' boat.

    Speed is useful for cruising boats too, you know. Especially when you sail in an area with very strong tidal currents to contend with like I do. The best speed commeasurate with safety, comfort and handling should be the goal of any cruising design. And it's never not more fun to sail a boat that is faster than those of your neighbors.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 11-17-2011 at 03:14 PM.

  7. #42
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    A couple of comments, I prefer not to comment on the work of other designers, I treat them as I'd like them to treat me.
    But I can talk about what my intentions were with SCAMP and how well or otherwise she's achieved those goals.
    Space, Howard, my ( non boating enthusiast) wife Denny and I were out in SCAMP at Port Townsend, there was room for a couple more adults if they'd wanted to come with us, the boat is so stable that having one or two on the lee side is not a problem.
    Stability, I was standing on the dock talking to a young couple who were about to go out with Howard for a sail. The young lady, who I think had not been sailing before, asked "Is it tippy?" I stepped off the float and stood on the gunwale of the little boat, it heeled maybe 15 deg with my 85kg standing on the rail. Under sail it carries what is a reasonably generous sail area for a 12 footer very well, and at Port Townsend in really light conditions was quick enough to sail away from most of the other small boats.
    Performance wise, I'd hoped to produce a boat that would be "spritely" , interesting to sail, not a "Dog". And the boats performance at Sail OK (what are you doing out of bed at this hour Cedric? And who've you been talking to? )with Tom Pamperin and I on board the "Famous Red SCAMP" built by Mike Monies was a bit of an eye opener. We were among mostly much longer boats and it was not a race situation, but after being last away off the beach we were able to pick up more than half the fleet on the 5 mile windward beat back to "home".
    I wanted maneuverable for those who want to short tack up a narrow channel, and thats why the high aspect ratio "offcenterboard" ( plus it fits in the seat front, totally unobtrusive) and big rudder, she will turn in her own length at hull speed, not losing a lot of momentum.
    What would I do different if starting again? Maybe a couple of details, Mike Monies has built a nice way of stepping the mast that makes it easier for someone not wanting to lift the 12 lb mast vertically, and I'd put a well and hand bilge pump at the after end of the cockpit floor. There is always the case that for most boats couple of feet more length would be an improvement, but then, for that 14 footer, the same could be said again.
    I like SCAMP, so does my wife and she's asked me to build one for her. Now THATS a turnaround, but I"ll build her a Kiwi PDR first so she can learn to sail before committing to the bigger boat.
    While SCAMP is a development of several previous designs, I'd not have done this one if it hadnt been for an interesting brief from Small Craft Advisor Magazine. For those who have not picked up on this, the name is [S]mall [C]raft [A]dvisor [M]agazine [P]roject
    Thanks Josh Colvin ( Editor of that mag)
    John Welsford
    Last edited by john welsford; 11-17-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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  8. #43
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    A question for John W, Howard Rice (and others):

    It we define a "small boat" as having a dry weight of no more than the likely two man crew that could sail it, we can go short and fat, or long and skinny or somewhere in between.

    At one extreme we could have the 11 foot Scamp, at the other we could have Gary Dierking's 24 foot Waapa. In between we could have any one of a number of more or less open 16 foot by 5-6 foot wide sail and oar boats (take your pick of anything that fits into my "small boat" definition above). All about the same dry weight, same amount of ply and presumably time/money to build.

    Say you had a passage or a coastal trip to make, say Oahu - Maui or Bella Bella to Port Hardy in BC, or at an extreme following Frank Dye on one of his trips, and each of these boats was lined up on the beach ready to go, which would you take?

    Ian

  9. #44
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by htom View Post
    I would think that Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser would be a better fit to the comparison than Oldshoe. Has anyone ever built one? Is she only a cartoon?
    JPC is a full design. That's a pretty similar boat to Scamp. I wish somebody (other than me) would build one--I have a feeling it would be extremely appealing. Always been curious about it. Then again, it's so much like a scamp . . .

  10. #45
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    What I like about the Scamp is its combination of small manageable scale for one person to handle and its built-in escape-from-the-sun cuddy. Here in Florida the strength of the summer sun can be oppressive and some place to take a nap in the shade would be great especially on a boat light enough to be rowed effectively if necessary. I'm sure it's no big pleasure to row but neither is my Caledonia Yawl, but like my CY, it's nice to have the rowing option if you want to leave the motor at home or you take the motor with you, the wind stops, and the darn motor fails somehow. The small scale of a small boat can be an advantage if you find yourself somehow marooned in a vast field of mud, for instance, or a low tide has left the boat high and dry on the beach maybe. These things happen so it's nice to have a boat light enough to drag around a bit if necessary.

    As for the Bolger Beach Cruiser, I wrote a long letter to Bolger and Freinds years ago asking to experiment with using one of my birdwing masts on the Beach Cruiser. I thought that since I'd never heard of a Beach Cruiser actually being built that they would be happy to see one built even if the owner/builder wanted to experiment with the rig. Boy, was I wrong. They said it would be too much me and not enough them. Apparently all three of us had healthy egos. I still like the Bolger Beach cruiser and many of Bolger's other designs but I probably will never build a Bolger boat. Iain Oughtred welcomed my experimentation and told me to "have fun!" I will always be grateful to him for that.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 11-17-2011 at 07:48 PM.

  11. #46
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I tried to buy plans for the Japanese Beach Cruiser. I wrote to PB&F for a price and nothing happened. That was probably in April or May, so I guess it's not going to happen. I love that boat. Now I don't know what to do. If someone would sell me their plans, I would build it. I suppose I could just build it from Phil Bolger's BOATS WITH AN OPEN MIND. What I don't want is an argument or even harsh words from Susanne Altenburger. There was a short while when I did want a Scamp. When I bought my first boat, I did what I thought was serious research and then ordered a new West Wight Potter #396. I didn't like it after a friend went forward and tipped us over in the middle of the lake. We had to be towed to shore. Phil Bolger said that the JBC can be sailed full of water and has lifeboat capability. I still want one. I will be 70 in three months and don't want to wait any more. Help or suggestions, please.

  12. #47
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by gpawdave View Post
    What I don't want is an argument or even harsh words from Susanne Altenburger.
    Only way I know how you can be certain of that is to limit your interaction with her. She ferociously responds to any perceived disagreement with amazing vigor. She is very strong in her opinions of what is correct and what is not, and you offer your own personal criteria or opinions at your own peril.


    I still want one. (a JBC) I will be 70 in three months and don't want to wait any more. Help or suggestions, please.
    Build a Scamp instead, I say. That's certainly a more proven boat by now, and it's got at least as good a "lifeboat capability" in addition to being faster, more weatherly and much better looking. I think you might even be able to get a Scamp kit pretty soon.

  13. #48
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    James,

    If I'm not mistaken, SCAMP kits are currently available starting at about $2,000. Plans are also available. If someone wants a complete boat (or just a complete hull), there's a couple of us who are happy to oblige. I have to agree with your logic. I too am intrigued by the JBC, but would choose a SCAMP because it's been proven to be even more boat than anyone (except maybe the designer?) expected.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  14. #49
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I would build a Scamp if I wasn't already building a boat....give me a few more years and I just might anyway.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  15. #50
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I understand that one of the important parts of the design brief was that the SCAMP had to dry out level enough to sleep on if put up on a beach or mudflats on an outgoing tide for the night, plus of course a dry and secure "bed" that did not need filler boards or whatever to make a flat space. There are pics around of the boats interior that show the "cockpit" has more than enough space for that, I"ve read that Howard ( thanks for posting the "test" results Howard , much appreciated) even sat up under the cabin overhang, ground coffee beans and made fresh coffee when anchored out in pretty awful weather.
    There are not many 12 ft boats that offer that level of amenities.

    Cedric

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    If you want speed, neither SCAMP nor Oldshoe should be your choice in a 12 foot sailboat. Choose some unballasted boat that can get up on plane. Most of those tend to measure 16+ feet though.

    Now, with the given that these are short displacement boats, define 'performance'. Neither would satisfy you if speed is what you want. More meaningful as measures of 'performance' are looks, and comfort.

    SCAMP has 145 pounds of ballast and Oldshoe has 200 pounds. If acceleration is your concern, bear in mind that the mass of the crew and gear matters more than the mass of the boat, and Oldshoe can sail with 6 people aboard! (In a 12 foot boat, wow.) Definitely less acceleration than SCAMP which looks to hold 4 people max.

    Yes, you are right to consider beaching. The Oldshoe draws 16 inches of water, max at the stern, less in the bow. Knee deep. If there is a moderate slope to the beach, you can nose in. SCAMP draws only 7 inches of water, but with the larger cuddy forward, climbing in and out over the bow would be harder. Wet feet are likely with both boats.

  16. #51
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    IanHi.You mention an 11ft Scamp. Do you mean the original 10' 10" Scamp the final design at 11' 11"?A note on another posting that stated Scamps water ballast at 145 pounds. For clarity her water ballast comes in at 173 pounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    A question for John W, Howard Rice (and others):It we define a "small boat" as having a dry weight of no more than the likely two man crew that could sail it, we can go short and fat, or long and skinny or somewhere in between. At one extreme we could have the 11 foot Scamp, at the other we could have Gary Dierking's 24 foot Waapa. In between we could have any one of a number of more or less open 16 foot by 5-6 foot wide sail and oar boats (take your pick of anything that fits into my "small boat" definition above). All about the same dry weight, same amount of ply and presumably time/money to build.Say you had a passage or a coastal trip to make, say Oahu - Maui or Bella Bella to Port Hardy in BC, or at an extreme following Frank Dye on one of his trips, and each of these boats was lined up on the beach ready to go, which would you take?Ian

  17. #52
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Hi Cedric
    FYI: I actually I roasted green coffee beans, frothed up some steamed milk and had a hot latte just before first light. I prepared two hot meals aboard, dinner and breakfast. I was conducting a winter test cruise and the first overnight on the newly built Scamp #1. This was out of Port Townsend to Mystery Bay last December 27th, winds up to 28 knots (likely slightly higher gusts during the night), 10 degrees F was the calculated wind chill factor. I had a legit storm with snow flurries during the night while at anchor. At one point in pitch dark and building winds I decided to strike the tent, stow and row downwind to a safer anchorage. A potentially dangerous maneuver given the dark, unknown waters, high gusting winds and a boat I had less than five hours in. What was needed was a stable boat and a cockpit to work in, I had these with Scamp. The cockpit is very roomy, comfortable and work boat practical, I could move around easily. Scamp is not a tippy drama queen. She was designed to cruise and to handle adverse conditions just like these (but without the cold and snow flurries).

    Scamp had her full water ballast aboard at 173 pounds. On my way back to Port Townsend I had to beat to weather for many miles in gusty 20-28 knot winds. Scamp was very interesting to sail, an eye opener, she muscled her way to weather (I can imagine this might illicit a chuckle amongst sailors but this is how I can best explain the way she felt, all 11 feet 11 inches of her, now that makes me chuckle!...what an interesting little boat). I enjoyed the sail immensely except for the fact that I was getting quite cold. I had flown in from Micronesia, was jet lagged and my tolerance for cold was not in place as I live in the tropics.

    I didn't sail Scamp delicately as I wanted to push her very hard to see what she could do. I sailed her as hard as I could, charging up and over waves, slamming tacks, multiple heavy air gybes, I dropped her off wave faces, put her rail down and over powered her multiple times. I listened to her hull and recall wondering if her ply hull was going to shudder and be plywood noisy. She felt more like a planked, strip or molded wood hull largely due to her bulk heading and curved lines, she met the sea instead of slamming through it. This was some excellent and challenging sailing because of the cold and the fact I was sailing a prototype. I didn't see any other boats out on the water and then I realized I might be a little odd in that I like winter sailing. Scamp may look cute to some but she is not a toy or delicate. Scamp is a mix of tough work boat and day sailing dinghy. As a moderate displacement dinghy she exudes a sense of being solid, not heavy or slow. Scamp is stable yet very nimble, she can just about turn around in her own length. She feels balanced, one finger on the helm nimble.

    After beating up Kilisut Harbor I had to sail against a flood tide through a very narrow cut and pass. This was a zero mistake needle thread sail in gusty high wind. Given the high winds and adverse flood tide currents (a famous spot for local sailors, it rips through this pass) I had to make each turn without fail. I was into this calculated challenge because in a few short hours I had learned what Scamp could do. In order to make it through I had to close shore on several tacks at full speed making tacks in less than one foot of water in order to make it through the pass. As I sailed I played the centerboard up and down by hand. I also calculated my early tacks to leave me in phase to make the close in tacks on starboard so I could take advantage of Scamps offset starboard located centerboard. I sailed her at speed through inches of water.

    I ended up in the lee of town after a romping high wind open water crossing of long legged tacks. Finally in the lee of the town buildings and cliffs I had to sail in to the narrowest confines of the harbor with one reef in and almost zero wind speed (there was maybe a knot of air aloft). Scamp excelled in the light air just as she did in last September when I sailed John Welsford and his wife during the NW Woodenboat Festival Sunday boat parade. I sailed her to the dock and stepped off to the wide grin on the faces of Scamps creators and friends who had wondered just what the windy overnight experience had been like.

    I have told both John Welsford and Josh Colvin that Scamp has what I term "Sneaky Speed"..................given the 11' 11" loa she in my opinion is fast for her design type and length. I really like her length as she is very easy to handle docking, moving off and on a trailer and handling while wading/exploring. This last factor is paramount to my style of exploratory small boat cruising. Adding more length and thus water line adds speed but where does that end, keep adding a foot and another and in very short order I am at a boat that is hard to hand for the kind of cruising I like to do. For my desires the micro cruiser as one type of boat I sail must be small, capable, safe and easy to handle on land and in the water (sailing and handling).

    There is nothing flashy, add on or gimmick about Scamp. She is just a very good small boat that is fun to sail across conditions and will get a sailor home should he or she fall on hard chance. I wish her designer, creator and builders success. John, Josh, Craig, Kees, Simeon, Scott and others seem to have been thoughtful and deliberate in her creation. Nice work.
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 12-01-2011 at 02:13 AM.

  18. #53
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    IanHi.You mention an 11ft Scamp. Do you mean the original 10' 10" Scamp the final design at 11' 11"?A note on another posting that stated Scamps water ballast at 145 pounds. For clarity her water ballast comes in at 173 pounds.
    I meant the final design that has been built and that you tested at Port Townsend. From what you say above that's 11'11'? I wasn't aware there had been several iterations of the design. Thanks for the clarification on how much water ballast Scamp carries and for all the information you have provided here.

    Ian

  19. #54

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Only way I know how you can be certain of that is to limit your interaction with her. She ferociously responds to any perceived disagreement with amazing vigor. She is very strong in her opinions of what is correct and what is not, and you offer your own personal criteria or opinions at your own peril.
    James, I am getting to know you a little bit better after a few months now hanging around with you on this forum. I dare say that the things you just wrote about Susanne Altenberger could also be said about you!

  20. #55
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Geeze, it's like looking into a mirror, ain't it? I'm sure the only reason we didn't kill each other is because the <murder> button on my keyboard was on the fritz. Plus, she's flat out wrong in a lot of her basic assumptions.

  21. #56
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    You know I only argue so much with you because I care, right Bruce? Small boats really, really, really matter to me.

  22. #57
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Has anyone got a link to a build process ie photos?
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  23. #58
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Build pictures here, you might need to join the yahoo group though.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWBuil...unt=20&dir=asc

  24. #59
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Build pictures here, you might need to join the yahoo group though.

    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/JWBuil...unt=20&dir=asc
    Thanks.
    The definition of stupid has got to be the belief that more guns will negate the bloodshed done with guns.

  25. #60
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    You can also find some build pics (and possibly also links to additional build photos) on the SCA message board here.
    "Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors". African Proverb

  26. #61
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    There are over seventy sail numbers issued. There are going to be lots of SCAMPs about.
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

    Grieving love unsaid. | Tomorrow will fail someday. | Tell them today, OK?

  27. #62
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Hoping these Scamp observations help folks understand the boat a little better.

    I mentioned in my write up above that Scamp sort of muscles her way along through ocean waves (I meant to say waves similar to ocean waves as I was on Puget Sound). The point is this, as a moderate displacement sailing dinghy she easily sails up, over and off waves. When I pressed her hard she came down hard but just continued to drive forward.

    Much of my sailing over the last six years has been aboard my sleep aboard 15 foot, 33 inch wide, 65 pound sailing canoe Sylph in the lagoons and open ocean off the island of Pohnpei. I do allot of sailing up, up, up, big long powerful Pacific waves and swell always looking for the white knuckle rocket rides down backsides. I sometimes go offshore and cross the 23 miles to Pakin and then on to Ahnt atoll. Entry into the lagoons is a danger unless the ebb, flood or slack is timed just right. I sail in clapotis, powerful running currents, confused stacked wave forms and crossed counter currents. Many times these waves have steep breaking faces.

    These are the conditions I look forward to sailing Scamp in next, windy, open ocean, tight passes/inlets and confused seas.
    Scamp would make a good island to island tropical cruiser with her shoal draft and cuddy. I wish I had one here in Micronesia, I'd sail the paint off the bottom if I did.
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 11-23-2011 at 02:05 AM.

  28. #63
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    These are the conditions I look forward to sailing Scamp in next, windy, open ocean, tight passes/inlets and confused seas.
    Scamp would make a good island to island tropical cruiser with her shoal draft and cuddy.
    I would really like to hear how that goes. I live on the outer coast of an island in S.E. Alaska and am looking to build a small boat that could handle the conditions you describe. I would like to take my young son with me and need to have absolute confidence in a boat's design, build, handling, etc...

    I appreciate the time you've already given us (translate that to, "have hung on every word") and look forward to hearing more about Scamp.

    Thanks,
    Luke

  29. #64
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    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Well I'm gonna say it...

    Yes, this boat is about as seaworthy as you can make a 12' boat.

    But... why? Nothing really adds to seaworthiness as much as waterline length, all things being the same. Why build a boat so small? Why not build a 16 footer? It can't be cost, because this boat isn't cheap for a 12 footer anyway and the additional materials to build a little bigger would be minimal. You can't cartop this, so the difference between trailering a 12 foot boat and a 16 footer is pretty minimal too, I don't care what car you are driving. Same deal with storage. I'm just saying, a boat like a Hartley 16 would have all the same advantages of scamp but with a full cabin. There are plenty of other, slightly longer open boats that could match scamp for seaworthiness too. And no offense, but I don't find the scamp to be much of a looker. It is very practical, and in that way bolger-esque in its topside appearances. That half cuddy, practical as it may be, kills the looks of the boat imho.

    So I'm just saying... what's all the hype about?
    “The difference between an adventurer and anybody else is that the youthful embrace of discovery, of self or of the world, is not muted by the responsibilities or the safety-catches of maturity.” Jonathan Borgais

  30. #65
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Des Moines, WA
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    All the posts since my original are great - no worries Howard about any 'hi-jacking' I had read your review elsewhere - it has only whetted my appetite for getting starting on building SCAMP as time and budget allows.

    I have consumed via the web all that is SCAMP and eagerly look for me more - Keep up the good work SCA!

    Thanks to all who were involved in this project - it's really a winner.

    regards,

    Ramon Hildreth
    Seattle

  31. #66
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Eagan, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    11,133

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Howard, my only complaint about your report on SCAMP is that you have not done the same for a hundred or more other small craft. I totally understand why you cannot do that, I just wish you could!
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

    Grieving love unsaid. | Tomorrow will fail someday. | Tell them today, OK?

  32. #67
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Pohnpei, Micronesia and Michigan, USA
    Posts
    755

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    "htom
    Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    htom wrote:

    Howard, my only complaint about your report on SCAMP is that you have not done the same for a hundred or more other small craft. I totally understand why you cannot do that, I just wish you could!"

    Hello htom

    Thanks for the note. For the first time in many years I will have the ability to spend a little more time in the US each year as I have just taken early retirement from the world of formal academics. I will continue to offer global sustainable development technical assistance for small island developing states and a small part of my working year will be devoted to all things small boat including a few voyages I have had on my list for too long.

    In actuality I have a plan to do more or less what you have suggested as one spin off of the Small Craft Skills Academy series I have developed over the last three years. The Academy series is now scheduled in four US locations beginning April 2012. www.smallcraftacademy.com

    One interesting element of the series is that sailors are bringing their boats for hands on experiential learning on the water. This is an excellent opportunity for testing and assessment of a wide range of small boats side by side.

    Academy participants will be engaged in honing skills in handling, docking, sailing, capsize and recovery, beach cruising and other small boat work across a range of conditions. This ability to test all kinds of boats side by side and write up assessments and contrast/comparisons is a great opportunity.

    To date we have a wide range of boats registered from Oughtred designs, Drascombes, West Wight Potters, Storers, Michilaks, Welsfords, Bolgers, Compacs, custom designs, sailing canoes and a wide range of trailer sailors.

    The Academy format is an excellent opportunity to assess, contrast and compare boats based on both owners observations plus the on water exercises participants will be involved in and my testing/instruction sessions. I am very much looking forward to writing up and publishing assessments and contrast comparison information as part of the post Academy proceedings. It is my plan that the Academy knowledge base will be compiled and published as a series of magazine articles and/or a book focusing very specifically on the many small open cruising boats, day sailors and trailer sailors of all types.

    Respectfully I would like to point out that I am in no way presumptuous enough to consider myself the arbiter of what determines whether a boat is a good boat or a bad boat or a so so boat. Instead accepted performance, safety and seaworthiness standards along with standard best practices for self rescue, capsize protocol, etc, will be the measures. I have the interest and the skills necessary to test boats in most any wind/weather condition.

    My hope is to create a usable and valuable knowledge base for others.

    howard
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 11-23-2011 at 02:06 AM. Reason: Edited for clarity

  33. #68
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    On the river, Auckland, New Zealand
    Posts
    4,505

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    This formal feedback will be a really useful resource for designers, I'm looking forward to reading more and incorporating the better features of other boats in my own work.

    John Welsford.






    Quote Originally Posted by Howard Rice View Post
    "htom
    Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    htom wrote:

    Howard, my only complaint about your report on SCAMP is that you have not done the same for a hundred or more other small craft. I totally understand why you cannot do that, I just wish you could!"

    Hello htom

    Thanks for the note. For the first time in many years I will have the ability to spend a little more time in the US each year as I have just taken early retirement from the world of formal academics. I will continue to offer global sustainable development technical assistance for small island developing states and a small part of my working year will be devoted to all things small boat including a few voyages I have had on my list for too long.

    In actuality I have a plan to do more or less what you have suggested as one spin off of the Small Craft Skills Academy series (www.smallcraftacademy.com) I have been developing over the last three years and now offering.

    One interesting element to the series is that sailors are bringing their boats for hands on experiential learning on the water. This is an excellent opportunity for testing and assessment of a wide range of small boats.

    Academy participants will be engaged in honing skills in handling, docking, sailing, capsize and recovery, beach cruising and other small boat work across a range of conditions. This ability to test all kinds of boats side by side and write up assessments and contrast/comparisons is a great opportunity.

    To date we have a wide range of boats registered from Oughtred designs, Drascombes, West Wight Potters, Storers, Michilaks, Welsfords, Bolgers, Compacs, custom designs, sailing canoes and a wide range of trailer sailors.

    This is an excellent opportunity to assess, contrast and compare boats based on both owners observations plus the on water exercises participants will be involved in and my testing/instruction sessions. I am very much looking forward to writing up and publishing assessments and contrast comparison information as part of the post Academy published proceedings. It is my hope that the Academy knowledge base will be compiled and published as book focusing on small open boats, day sailors and trailer sailing types.

    Respectfully I would like to point out that I am in no way presumptuous enough to consider myself the arbiter of what determines whether a boat is a good boat or a bad boat or a so so boat. Instead accepted performance, safety and seaworthiness standards along with standard best practices for self rescue, capsize protocol, etc, will be the measure. I simply have the interest and I believe the skills needed to test just about any boat in any conditions.

    My hope is to create a usable and valuable knowledge base for others.

    howard
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  34. #69

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Funniest thing, I came across this thread, never hearing before of a "SCAMP". I thought, what a quaint name, I'll have a peek. I found it to be a little homely at first glance but the more I stared the more I started to fall in love. I feel almost betraying now, calling her homely as this is one of the most practical boats under 12' I've ever seen. Its almost cuddly, reminds me of a hamster. I too find myself dreaming about the first picture at work and fantasizing about taking her out for a weekend tramp around the lake. Its awfully impractical for where I live but should I find myself in a place that calls for a weekend cruiser I'll surely consider it as I find myself enjoying this thread more and more as the winter goes by.

  35. #70
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Des Moines, WA
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    What I like about SCAMP is there a community behind it and I think it's only going to get bigger as time goes by.

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