SCAMP envy/lust

[skaraborgcraft]

Nice pics,thanks for posting. I really like the stern shape, looks very much in the style of a Yorkshire Coble.

[Phil Y]

That is one cute little boat

[Howard Rice]

Yesterday I got to spend quite a bit of time looking over tents at a very large sporting goods store with the idea of making one of them work for a camping enclosure for SCAMP. As you can imagine, none of them was close enough to be very usable, at least from what I could tell. I did, however, have a thought that may be useful and worth pursuing. On the dome tents using the crossing bows, I wonder if at least part of the bow frame could somehow be fashioned to underside of the cabin roof. This might provide a way to utilize the stiff cabin roof to stabilize the soft tent portion of the enclosure. The tent poles, as light as they are, might even stay in place when sailing to somehow support a small patch of sunshade while one is at the tiller or doing other stuff if the boat is in self-steer mode – just a thought to kick around.

Hello
For my use the best tent solution for use at anchor or in manageable sea anchor conditions while underway might be a simple sturdy removable boom gallows, single ridge pole from cuddy to gallows, with two pocket end hoops to create side space within the tent. I require the ability to forcibly extricate myself from the tent if needed without unzipping a door, I make sure this is the case with all my open boat cockpit tents. I design and build my own enclosures for small boats so I can get exactly what I want at an affordable price.

A second simple cockpit awning would suffice for most circumstances, with roll up sides and noseeum screens it can be bug proof and will work to keep the sun and most showers off in the tropics. Good for cockpit living. I built one for Blueberry and it is very effective.

Protection while underway during passage will be a simple low profile dodger integrated off the back of the cuddy but not enclosing the cockpit. A drop down affixable back will allow me to get fully out of the elements with no structure to erect or worry about getting out of. A full enclosure while sailing would not be wise in my opinion.

This is the general direction I am headed, a simple, strong, fully weather proof cockpit tent enclosure unit, easily deployable and lightening quick to strike. The simple awning is an indispensable item for small boat cruisers. The dodger will be a good partial cover keeping my weight out of the cuddy centered where I want it. We'll see where my testing and tweaking as I sew the structures leads me.

The tent/awning system will be integrated into other simple systems on the boat. I like everything bullet proof but above all simple. Very excited about the Scamp build and the challenges of making the enclosures. I have many nights aboard open dinghies and my sailing canoe tucked into a tent dry as a bone as rain pours outside. My years of tented cruising aboard many different open boats is proof that comfortable cruising can be had with a little fore thought.



A prototype canoe tent I whipped up of old acrylic canvas scraps I had on hand as a test. It has served me so well that I continue to cruise with it. Key safety features are the shock cord hooks to the deck. In this photo the aft port snaps are unhooked. With these safety snaps I can extricate myself from the canoe
instantly with the swing of an arm. Adds to sound sleep knowing I can bail out in any emergency. This tent is going on its 9th year of use.
[IMG][/IMG]

Snap system and bug screens can be seen in this photo. Normally I open the sliding decks (fore and aft) making for 14 additional inches of living space. This particular morning was after a 1am arrival and anchor out, I didn't bother with the decks.

[IMG][

Designing and building Scamp enclosures is of great interest to me. I am intending single wall tent material. I would like to get my hands on some Toddtex (Made by Bibler) but am not sure it can be had. Toddtex is superior material for single wall tent making.

Another shot anchored for the night right up against the shore, coffee is brewing aboard. This same scene aboard Scamp would be luxurious.
[IMG][/IMG]
[IMG]

Tent on my wood Tremolino MKIV. This style would be an option for Scamp.
[IMG][/IMG]

One of my MK IV Tremolinos on a trailer.

[IMG][/IMG]

I have also built tents for a Mirror Dinghy, Rhodes Robin, Klepper Aerius 1, Klepper Aerius 2, Blueberry, a 20 ft John Hanna Poco Dinero and an Enterprise Dinghy.
Designing and building structures for Scamp should be easy compared to these boats as her cuddy provides a fixed base to expand from.

[Dan St Gean]

Have a look at Jim Brown's dodger for some inspiration on a clever solution to instant deploy/take down. I saw it at one of his videos at outrig.com where he's showing his Searunner31.

Dan

[skaraborgcraft]

I never knew there was a MK4 tremilino...... would be nice to see more pictures if you have any Howard, what did you think of it?

[Howard Rice]

I never knew there was a MK4 tremilino...... would be nice to see more pictures if you have any Howard, what did you think of it?

Hello
I would post them here but then again this is the Scamp thread. I could start another thread or I can email them to you if you send along your address via forum message.

PS- I just posted an additional Tremolino photo in the previous posting on tents. Let me know if you'd like to take the Tremolino discussion elsewhere.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thanks for the pic Howard. I replied your PM. Cheers

[Howard Rice]

Thanks for the pic Howard. I replied your PM. Cheers

Thanks Ian. Glad we are in touch with much in common.
Best,
howard

[skaraborgcraft]

I have just noticed that in the aboce Scamp photos, the cuddy bulkhead is solid. I notice on the Red Scamp, the slot for the mast is cut through. Is this a modification in a later build? I dont like the idea of cutting a bulkhead and a slot in the cuddy, though realise this would facilitate erecting the mast. Im guessing the other Scamps mast drops in from above deck? Cheers

[WI-Tom]

I think the slot top is Mike Monies's own modification--it's not in the plans, though he built it that way from the start. From what he's said, it works well, making it much simpler to drop the mast. He did beef up the cuddy top beam considerably to support the two halves of the roof if I remember it right.

Tom

[kenjamin]

Kenjamin and Dan
Just out of meetings. I literally have a moment. The idea you two are tossing around of fresh water tankage, bladder etc is precisely why I posted the question. I had not thought of this approach. I know a little about small boat voyaging but certainly have no illusions about having a corner on innovative ideas. This sort of collaborative thinking is excellent. Later I will get back to continue this discussion. Thank you both!
FYI for much of the planned voyage fresh water will be in abundance. The passages are my concern as you have likely ascertained.
howard

Thought you guys might find interesting my playing around with water ballast as fresh drinking water. Also threw in some lead (two 25 lb. bricks) to bring this total amount of ballast to 150 lbs. That's a little short of the total recommended but fishing gear and my inboard motor well more than make that up. I realize this ballast is not situated in exactly the same location but it's pretty darn close. Some of the lead could be replaced with canned food goods too, I suppose. The tricky part will probably be the waterproof hatches above the fresh water containers. I've also read of lives being saved by emptying water supplies to create flotation with the empty water containers. Salt water ballast as designed would be more convenient and may have a slightly lower center of gravity but these 23 liter containers would provide 46 liters of fresh water that could be replaced with salt water during a voyage (23 liters at a time, of course).

[skaraborgcraft]

Thanks for the info reguarding the mast/roof situation.
Kenjamin, thats pretty much the idea. I would want to use smaller 5 litre containers,and store them upright,i dont know how much space there is between the sole and underside of the cockpit well. Smaller containers can be accessed via a smaller hatch,you only need to have enough space to pull one out,with enough clearence to get your hand in to pull the next one out....which saves on having to find ways to securely close down and keep watertight a larger access hatch.I had 60litres of fresh water stowed in 3 litre platic soda bottles,under the floorboards,and was accessed only by a 6inch round plate hatch. The empty bottles went back in as bouyancy,rather than ballast. It seems Scamp has enough bouyancy even with a full tank of water ballast,so re-filling used fresh water with sea would be a good idea.
I dont have construction drawings yet,so ideas may develop. Cheers

[Howard Rice]

I think the slot top is Mike Monies's own modification--it's not in the plans, though he built it that way from the start. From what he's said, it works well, making it much simpler to drop the mast. He did beef up the cuddy top beam considerably to support the two halves of the roof if I remember it right.

Tom

I have been asked by the Scamp developer for advice on a possible mast step solution (for the glass version) that is not the drop in as per the plans nor the slot opening as in Mike Monies boat nor a tabernacle. I have my own solution that I plan to use for my build. It is very simple, not fully worked out but I believe it is the right answer.

It should prove user friendly when stepping and unstepping the spar in less than ideal on water conditions or just for daily launches. Based on the question I am now in the process of sketching it. Soon (when I have time) I will get it to a dimensional design on paper.

I am not at the mast step stage in my build yet and had planned to make the modification when I got to that step sort of fitting and head scratching as I go but the question has me moving forward for my own purpose of making sure this critical element is as minimalist a deviation from the plans and as functional as possible.

I'd be happy to share it when I am done but feel a bit hesitant in doing so. I feel strongly that the original Scamp design is a good one and should be adhered to by builders even though my solution is not by any measure a major deviation from the design. I realize in saying this that I am running counter to my statement but for my use this modification makes sense. I have stepped and unstepped Scamps spar and find it to be quite easy as is. I want the ability to do it at sea if needed.

Scamp is a very thoughtfully conceived boat and any design change should be carefully considered. It would be nice to some day have a fleet of Scamps based on one design parity. Who knows some folks out there may want to race in a Scamp class one design regatta some day.

[kenjamin]

Thanks for the info reguarding the mast/roof situation.
Kenjamin, thats pretty much the idea. I would want to use smaller 5 litre containers,and store them upright,i dont know how much space there is between the sole and underside of the cockpit well. Smaller containers can be accessed via a smaller hatch,you only need to have enough space to pull one out,with enough clearence to get your hand in to pull the next one out....which saves on having to find ways to securely close down and keep watertight a larger access hatch.I had 60litres of fresh water stowed in 3 litre platic soda bottles,under the floorboards,and was accessed only by a 6inch round plate hatch. The empty bottles went back in as bouyancy,rather than ballast. It seems Scamp has enough bouyancy even with a full tank of water ballast,so re-filling used fresh water with sea would be a good idea.
I dont have construction drawings yet,so ideas may develop. Cheers

You have to love this forum! You make a very good point about the size of the waterproof hatch. As fate would have it, I have a very large 12" waterproof, latch-closing port left over from another build. This will send me searching for smaller water containers but shouldn't be a big problem. Your idea for the smaller opening and smaller containers will give me much more flexibility as to what I can store down there. Thanks again for the suggestion. It will also be a heck of a lot easier to build too.

[kenjamin]

I have been asked by the Scamp developer for advice on a possible mast step solution (for the glass version) that is not the drop in as per the plans nor the slot opening as in Mike Monies boat nor a tabernacle. I have my own solution that I plan to use for my build. It is very simple, not fully worked out but I believe it is the right answer.

It should prove user friendly when stepping and unstepping the spar in less than ideal on water conditions or just for daily launches. Based on the question I am now in the process of sketching it. Soon (when I have time) I will get it to a dimensional design on paper.

I am not at the mast step stage in my build yet and had planned to make the modification when I got to that step sort of fitting and head scratching as I go but the question has me moving forward for my own purpose of making sure this critical element is as minimalist a deviation from the plans and as functional as possible.

I'd be happy to share it when I am done but feel a bit hesitant in doing so. I feel strongly that the original Scamp design is a good one and should be adhered to by builders even though my solution is not by any measure a major deviation from the design. I realize in saying this that I am running counter to my statement but for my use this modification makes sense. I have stepped and unstepped Scamps spar and find it to be quite easy as is. I want the ability to do it at sea if needed.

Scamp is a very thoughtfully conceived boat and any design change should be carefully considered. It would be nice to some day have a fleet of Scamps based on one design parity. Who knows some folks out there may want to race in a Scamp class one design regatta some day.

Howard, One of the really nice things about my birdwing mast is that it wants to be stepped further aft than the as drawn lug mast. My mast will be stepped into the aft edge of the cabin roof. The foot of the mast will step into a box on the bottom of the boat. The box will contain the foot of the mast so that becomes the pivot point for walking the rest of the mast up into the final position at which time a chock will drop into place locking the mast into place. The box will be able to accept different floors with holes in different positions so that there will be some adjustability to the rake of the mast. When it comes time to store the unstepped mast horizontally the other really nice thing about my mast comes into play. The curvature of the mast will allow it to be stored along the gunwale and wrap around the cabin as if it were made for it. The funny thing is, the boat is actually being built for the mast. The birdwing mast I'll be using was made for another purpose (a mizzen for my CY) but I never liked the way it looked on Xena so I had to build a new boat to utilize the mast – at least that's what I told myself when I shelled out the money for the plans, plywood and epoxy. I'm trying to do all my changes with OK's from Mr. Welsford but I'm afraid the build is going so fast that I'm sort of designing things on the fly and just hoping he likes the changes. I did get an OK for the inboard motor well with twin rudders on either side of that and of course the use of the birdwing mast.

[skaraborgcraft]

The more brains we have working on any issue here at WBF, the greater chance of finding a good solution to any problems. Im now intrigued about Howards mast set up, i did have one idea spring straight to mind, but i will wait and see what Howard has come up with. I have had a few craft fitted with tabernacles, and i dont see a problem with fitting one to Scamp,but for my use,the original design would be ok.

Have a look round your local supermarket for suitable containers.....sometimes you can buy a good container, with something usefull inside it,for less price than an empty container sold at a hardware/camping shop.

[skaraborgcraft]

A birdwing masted Scamp......cant wait to see that! Get off the computer and back to the workshop with you!

[Desert Sailor]

Getting geared up to start building #115 -- the CNC machines should be cutting my plywood right now. All of these modifications are intriguing.

But I think I'm going to build it as designed and live with it awhile before changing anything. It's true that a finished hull may preclude some of the modifications, but the forgiving nature of plywood construction will likely make just about anything possible -- maybe just a little harder.

At this point I think it's more important to get it built and optimize (hah!) my small boat skills with respect to the original design than to invest a lot of time and energy in incremental (and possibly hypothetical?) improvements to the boat.

Mr. Welsford is a much better designer than I, so I'm going to trust his judgment for now.
--
Mark

[skaraborgcraft]

Mark, none of us here doubt Scamps ability as designed,the only things we are really discussing is how it can be optimised for someones particular needs. Howard has a point about sticking 100% to plans in order to achieve a level class playing field, but home built boats being built by people who have no interest in racing will no doubt change something to suit there particular fancy/needs/requirements, but in a hull shape that does not need to be messed with. No one here is talking about adding a few inches in the topsides or pulling the stations out to make Scamp any longer. Minor tweaks to suit your own type of sailing are part of the fun. Cheers

[WI-Tom]

Well, there are changes and there are changes... after interviewing John Welsford, I really appreciate how many interconnected factors their are in ALL of his designs, SCAMP more than most. Change one thing, and everything else changes. I'd be hesitant to change much--though obviously small changes can be done with a good dose of "caveat emptor."

Tom

[Howard Rice]

Mark, none of us here doubt Scamps ability as designed,the only things we are really discussing is how it can be optimised for someones particular needs. Howard has a point about sticking 100% to plans in order to achieve a level class playing field, but home built boats being built by people who have no interest in racing will no doubt change something to suit there particular fancy/needs/requirements, but in a hull shape that does not need to be messed with. No one here is talking about adding a few inches in the topsides or pulling the stations out to make Scamp any longer. Minor tweaks to suit your own type of sailing are part of the fun. Cheers

Hi
Good thoughts here. My concern is not so much about Scamp being a development class (very minor set up tweaks to optimize for need or desire of the sailor) but major changes that would alter the buoyancy, stability or integrity of the boat as she is designed, in short safety issues.

The other aspect of less concern would simply be parity of hull, appendages (foils) and her rig for those who'd like to sail side by side in racing mode. I may or may not be interested in this aspect of a Scamp class but others might be. Having raced Scamp in a fleet of 110 larger boats three weeks ago was fantastic fun, she spins on a dime and can mix it up nicely.

I also happen to believe Scamp may be destined to someday be considered a classic small boat as she is in reality new thinking in a small open boat. It would be unfortunate to have a solid design built to so many different specs that the type is diluted. Likely not much to fret about in actuality, for now I hope to help in a small way (one voice) to give Scamp as a class a solid footing (this is the former one design class director in me speaking). The discussion of minor changes here is excellent. Lets not forget the fact that the SCA folks went to some effort/expense to prove that Scamp can be capsized (even turtled) and quickly righted, easily re-entered and then sailed away without bailing, a critically important design characteristic/benefit that in my mind ranks above all others inherent in the design. Hoping all builders are mindful of maintaining her ability to keep them safe as a top priority.
Best to All,
howard

[Desert Sailor]

I loathe long-windedness, but maybe my post was too short.

I find some of the possible changes intriguing. I may make some of those changes at some point. But I think it's important to live with the boat awhile, get to know its performance intimately, and develop my own skills, before making changes. The idea is to make any changes from the perspective of real experience.

I agree that SCAMP has the potential to be a classic, and there seems to be a groundswell of energy that could take it to class status pretty quickly. Racing might be fun, but I'm not overly interested (I have a worn out Thistle in my back yard for anyone who wants it...). I'm hopeful that as the numbers grow a class association can be put together that will preserve the boat's best features, and maintain a reasonably level playing field while leaving room for owners to make modifications to suit their specific purposes. I'd be willing to inject some energy into this.

One addition that I'm curious about is Howard's notion of a storm sail. I have no idea what this would look like on such a small boat, but it would be nice to be able to continue to make controlled progress if you found yourself caught out in 40+ knots of wind, especially close to shore. To my mind, that's a safety issue, and is worthy of some serious thought.

Another interesting application for SCAMP would be tender/lifeboat duty on a bigger boat. Securing it on deck would require some creativity and a pretty large boat, but I think I'd feel safer in a SCAMP than in some of the emergency life rafts I've seen (and climbed into).

It's a lot of fun to think about, while I sit here, waiting for my kit to arrive at the Albuquerque freight terminal. I'm hoping to bring it to the 2012 PTWBF -- with a little luck.
--
Mark

[kenjamin]

It's interesting that SCAMP has had an unusually collaborative design path. I applaud Mr. Welsford's willingness to accept tweaking of the design from others when he felt the change led to a more capable boat. First it was stretched and not by Mr. Westford (from what I understand)... Then it was worked over a bit more by the CNC people that developed the kit. My own changes are the result of having parts laying around that were not being used for anything else. And I did write a letter to him to get permission to experiment with the rig. John seems to have a genuine curiosity in how well my birdwing mast rig will compare with the big lug rig. He was not too keen on my use of the 4 HP on my SCAMP but since I already owned the motor, he agreed to let me give it a try. The request for the inboard motor well was in part due to the use of the larger than usual motor and the fact that I'm beginning to get too old to be leaning over a tall transom to mess with an outboard. It's very true that if you change one thing then it affects two or three other things. My SCAMP will be experimental because that is what's fun for me and I hope it will also end up being more appropriate for my own individual needs and usage. What's truly funny is the combination of things I want my SCAMP to be. First and foremost, I want it to be a fishing boat. But I also need it to race well against other SCAMPs to prove the worth of my birdwing mast. Finally, I have an interest in Micro-cruising and ,like Howard, I believe the SCAMP is an excellent vehicle for that, especially for solo work or for a crew of two.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with the SCAMP as designed. Anytime you mess with an already excellent design, you're asking for trouble but some of us just can't resist the temptation to experiment or to tweak a design to make it more appropriate for our usage of the boat. People who depart from the plans can rapidly ruin the resale value of their boat but it's a price some of us are willing to pay out of curiosity or for the adventure of going where no one has gone before. Yeah, I've probably watched too many episodes of Star Trek. It's scarred me for life but I'm retired and having a blast building my SCAMP. I thank Mr. John Welsford for that.

[skaraborgcraft]

Kenjamin, im hoping that you will have an insert box to put inside your engine well when its removed to race? I can imagine a well creating huge drag if not reasonably sealed and faired at the bottom,quite an important issue if you want to compare performance of rigs. Fortunately an easy job and can double as a storage box,or perhaps better yet,just a fold down flap permenently fixed inside your well?

The Lysander class springs to mind,by Percy Blandford, design for home building. Many of these were made almost unrecognizable by cabin extensions and rig changes,but that is the nature of home builders.The designer did a good job for 95% of peoples needs, the other 5% decided to take it upon themselves to modify.As Kenjamin pointed out,you can really hit re-sale value if you do this sort of stuff,but i think re-sale value is not even on the mind of some people,why would you modify a boat to suit your own specific requirements and then sell it? I believe 95% of Scamps will be built as per plans, and im sure JW would be happy with that,and also have an interest in those few boats that undertake minor adjustments,that in itself can be constructive in developing new designs such as the slightly larger Scamp MK11 that Dylan Winter so badly desires.
Apologies if that was too long winded for you. I have absolutely no issues with Scamp being a one design class,and if ANY alterations to the plans means disqualification from Scamp events,then that would be the individuals choice. Is there a Scamp Owners Association yet? Cheers

[kenjamin]

Kenjamin, im hoping that you will have an insert box to put inside your engine well when its removed to race? I can imagine a well creating huge drag if not reasonably sealed and faired at the bottom,quite an important issue if you want to compare performance of rigs. Fortunately an easy job and can double as a storage box,or perhaps better yet,just a fold down flap permenently fixed inside your well?

Yes, for sure there will be an inset plug for the motor well. There might even be two of them. One will be for sealing the hole flush with the rest of the bottom for racing (when I can't cheat and use the motor). The other will be some sort of bait bucket that will allow us to shut off the battery operated bubble generator. Those bubblers for the bait bucket don't seem to make much noise until you're sitting there a quarter mile up a saltwater creek waiting for a big red drum to bite. Even then, you don't realize how much noise its making until you turn the darn thing off and get a chance to savor the silence.

As for the one design racing, I'm pretty good with a reciprocating saw and a grinder if it should ever come to that. At 62 most of my racing days are a distant memory although I'm still pretty quick on my bicycle. Also the birdwing sail area I'll be using initially is quite small and will not come into good performance until it's really blowing. I have more interest in events where almost anything goes like the Everglades Challenge. I hope to enter next year if the stars align properly. I wonder if I could hide my motor and gas tank in a dry bag – yeah, probably not.

[Howard Rice]

Desert Sailor
As to your question below:

"One addition that I'm curious about is Howard's notion of a storm sail. I have no idea what this would look like on such a small boat, but it would be nice to be able to continue to make controlled progress if you found yourself caught out in 40+ knots of wind, especially close to shore. To my mind, that's a safety issue, and is worthy of some serious thought."

I am building two Scamp (#2 and #3) kits I purchased before #1 was completed. #2 was purchased to be a boat I develop for a particular blue water passage to a remote destination where the wind can crank. #3 will be a stock build. Both boats will be set up for deep reefing, #3 with a stock Scamp class sail (3 reefs).

#2 may have two or three sails on board. I have not yet decided on the combination but it may look like this:
One standard Scamp main with three reefs, one storm main (approx 75 sq ft). The third sail would be a storm trysail. The second option is full main (3 reefs) and storm main (3 reefs), no trysail.

I haven't built #2 yet so no sea trials have been conducted. It is only through heavy weather sea trials, running off and heaving to that I can determine just what rig options I will end up with. At some point continuing to move in really heavy air is a no sum game and heaving to is the better part of good sense. So this said I will be exploring Scamps ability at the good sense margin and deciding whether a small 3 reef main (storm main) is sufficient or if the addition of a trysail is the right answer.

My qualified answer to your question is storm trysail.

My hunch is I will carry one as I do aboard Blueberry and as I did aboard my Cape Horn sailing canoe. My canoe trysail was 2 square feet (no I am not joking. It was built by Hild sails and they didn't chuckle when I ordered it as they knew where I was headed). It seemed mighty big but perfect for the task when I used it.

[skaraborgcraft]

I would have the standard main with 3 reefs and a trysail. I dont know the area of scamps main when triple reefed, but a trysail of about 75% of the remaing panal would be my choice, you can also have a set of reef points in it to reduce it further. In the conditions that you would need to use a sail that size, i dont think you would be making much progress to weather,but the ability to have a sail onboard that will help, is important; i think. My sails would consist of a well constructed main, cruising chute, and the trysail .

I had a 16sq ft storm jib on my 2 tonner, so your 2sq ft on your canoe Howard was relatively large in comparison given the displacement. When you need them.....you REALLY need them.

[Desert Sailor]

Apologies if that was too long winded for you.

I've no doubt that Mr. Kenjamin can speak for himself, but it was me that made the "long-winded" remark. And to clarify, I was referring only to myself. I try to keep things brief, but sometimes clarity is sacrificed. My bad.

SCAMP is off to an impressive start, and this is a crucial stage in the evolution of the class (if there is to be one). Class status makes for a predictably standard product, and that helps both marketing and resale value. The potential price is that a rigid application of a one-design mentality could hurt the boat's all-around usability (the Thistle sitting in my back yard is good for nothing but racing, really). Baby steps might be best, with a lot of input from Mr. Welsford.

I spoke to Josh at Small Craft Advisory Magazine. Right now they are scrambling to keep up with demand. The class idea is on their minds, but right now it is not their highest priority, and perhaps for good reason. I'd be very surprised if Josh were not watching this thread, so I'll stop there before I put words in his mouth.

The good news is that my kit is on the truck! Time to rearrange the shop.
--
Mark

[Howard Rice]

Progress to weather would of course not be expected nor necessarily wise in severe conditions. I like to keep a boat moving and the trysail would be the answer.
I am still planning to test the smaller main idea. Scamps 100 square feet is very ample sail area, which keeps her moving in the lightest of air. A smaller main whether termed storm main or simply working sail or passage main may be what I decide on for the two passages. It might also be larger than 75 sq ft, this size is a rough guesstimate.

The 2 sq ft trysail I carried worked like a charm off wind, which is what I wanted. I haven't actually measured it but guess it is 2 sq ft, it may be several square inches smaller, still it was money in the bank. It was actually designed by me as a rescue sail in case I had an injured shoulder/upper body which would have prevented me from paddling to safety. I used it twice in heavy air sailing down the Beagle Channel in 40 knot gusty winds. Your storm jib size seems right for the boat you sailed. Did you carry a trysail?

I would have the standard main with 3 reefs and a trysail. I dont know the area of scamps main when triple reefed, but a trysail of about 75% of the remaing panal would be my choice, you can also have a set of reef points in it to reduce it further. In the conditions that you would need to use a sail that size, i dont think you would be making much progress to weather,but the ability to have a sail onboard that will help, is important; i think. My sails would consist of a well constructed main, cruising chute, and the trysail .

I had a 16sq ft storm jib on my 2 tonner, so your 2sq ft on your canoe Howard was relatively large in comparison given the displacement. When you need them.....you REALLY need them.

[Desert Sailor]

At some point continuing to move in really heavy air is a no sum game and heaving to is the better part of good sense. So this said I will be exploring Scamps ability at the good sense margin and deciding whether a small 3 reef main (storm main) is sufficient or if the addition of a trysail is the right answer. My qualified answer to your question is storm trysail.

Makes sense. A reefable trysail might be a prudent thing to have on board, even if the odds of its use were minimal -- think of a situation where you get caught in an unexpected nasty blow close to a lee shore, and that shore has neither good anchorages nor suitable beaches. Heaving to only delays the inevitable. Just being able to maintain your sea room would be enough, even if you couldn't make much progress to weather.

I'll likely go with the 3-reef Neil Pryde sail, but I'll be looking forward to your test results with a trysail.
--
Mark

[Howard Rice]

Hey Mark
I too am going with the Pryde sail for #3 but will likely cut to my design for #2. I typically design and cut my own sails as I can get exactly what I want plus I happen to like making sails. I did race the Pryde sail at Sail Havasu, right out of the bag it was an excellent set. I recommend it to Scamp builders.

On the trysail as a type. Trysails can take a boat to weather but barely at a wide sailing angle so having one aboard to claw off a lee shore is prudent. Shape of the shore and restrictions of side headlands, points, reefs etc makes for difficulties. Conservative route planning and a diligent weather eye (info gleaned from a barometer, experience, etc) plus plain good seamanship is the key.

Makes sense. A reefable trysail might be a prudent thing to have on board, even if the odds of its use were minimal -- think of a situation where you get caught in an unexpected nasty blow close to a lee shore, and that shore has neither good anchorages nor suitable beaches. Heaving to only delays the inevitable. Just being able to maintain your sea room would be enough, even if you couldn't make much progress to weather.

I'll likely go with the 3-reef Neil Pryde sail, but I'll be looking forward to your test results with a trysail.
--
Mark

[Desert Sailor]

On the trysail as a type. Trysails can take a boat to weather but barely at a wide sailing angle so having one aboard to claw off a lee shore is prudent. Shape of the shore and restrictions of side headlands, points, reefs etc makes for difficulties. Conservative route planning and a diligent weather eye (info gleaned from a barometer, experience, etc) plus plain good seamanship is the key.

No doubt -- your last sentence speaks volumes. But they call them "accidents" for a reason, and even the most skilled seaman can get caught unawares. As previously mentioned regarding storm sails, when you need it, you really need it. To my mind, the storm trysail could be the cheapest of insurance.

I would love to learn how to design and sew sails. Not to do it for profit, but just to know more about how they go together, and to be able to maintain them myself.

Clothing is another worthwhile topic. Given the limited stowage volume on a SCAMP, clothing would best be multi-functional. I'm not sure where to begin on this one, and backpacking/mountain experience may not transfer well.

Can't wait to get started building, and more importantly, sailing this little beauty. Speculation, obviously, but I think SCAMP has potential beyond it's original design brief.
--
Mark

[cprinos]

It is only through heavy weather sea trials, running off and heaving to that I can determine just what rig options I will end up with. At some point continuing to move in really heavy air is a no sum game and heaving to is the better part of good sense.

How do you heave-to with this rig?

[skaraborgcraft]

Howard, i never had a trysail. She was cutter rigged,that storm jib was set on the inner stay,and she remained balanced and able to make to winward. I had reinforced the top of the mainsail and a 4th set of reefs,as said, cheap insurance, but had a lot of comments about it. Never used the 4th reef in anger, storm jib was fine under conditions i met, never had the need to claw off a lee-shore,cruising without an engine you plan differently,as you well know.

What weight cloth is used in the Pryde sail?

[skaraborgcraft]

How do you heave-to with this rig?

Back the sail to weather and lash the tiller to the opposite side. Im guessing you may need a dedicated sheet to be added to keep the boom over,bit like a gybe-preventer when running downwind.

[Howard Rice]

Not entirely sure but believe the Pryde sail is 5.5 ounce, at least thats what it felt like. I will check.

I am a gaff cutter sailor by choice, an excellent rig for going off shore. The lug rig is also one of my favorites because it is so well behaved. A sailor can park with a lug rig even in a blow. Historically fishermen and watermen have relied on the lug rig as working sail. I also sail engineless so I rely on sail rigs that deliver all points of sail performance thus allowing me to sail in and out of slips, docks and other tight spots. I have to qualify this statement. Blueberry came with a neat little Vetus diesel. Most of the time I still sail her off and on to docks and into slips but once in awhile.............. The engine took me through the Cape Cod Canal quite handily and I ended up motoring around Newport harbor one morning checking out the 12 meters, so I guess I am a reluctant motor head.

I read your comment below on heaving to with a lug rig, you have it right. It is just about that simple but should like most moves on a small boat be tested and tried in manageable and then more challenging conditions before it can be relied on. I took Scamp out in winter conditions for an overnight (her second sea trials) in very cold conditions (mid twenties blowing 20-30 making for a 10 degree F wind chill factor). In a blow I parked her several times to fish out dry gloves, eat something, etc. With no stays the lug rig weathercocks and is very quiet, this is important. With her ample beam, volume, water ballast and the lug rig a wide range of sailors will find that Scamp delivers sailing performance (given her 10 ft waterline) and most importantly she will keep you safe.

Howard, i never had a trysail. She was cutter rigged,that storm jib was set on the inner stay,and she remained balanced and able to make to winward. I had reinforced the top of the mainsail and a 4th set of reefs,as said, cheap insurance, but had a lot of comments about it. Never used the 4th reef in anger, storm jib was fine under conditions i met, never had the need to claw off a lee-shore,cruising without an engine you plan differently,as you well know.

What weight cloth is used in the Pryde sail?

[Howard Rice]

Neil Pryde Sail

I wrote:
"Not entirely sure but believe the Pryde sail is 5.5 ounce, at least thats what it felt like. I will check."

It is 5.5 ounce

[Howard Rice]

Checking out Scamp
If anyone is interested in putting an eye and a hand on Scamp here are a couple of opportunities. I believe seeing Scamp in person is worth the effort because she is such a unique small boat, greater than the sum of her parts. It is hard to understand just how big she is for a small boat without seeing her first hand.

1. Scamp #1 will be sailed during the Port Townsend Small Craft Skills Academy. The event will kick off with a public small boat show on May 19th, 2012 at the Northwest Maritime Center in Port Townsend. The small boat show was originally scheduled for May 24th but has been changed so more folks can attend. Academy participant boats will be on site and everyone is welcome to stop by for a look and a chat with owners. The show is open to sailors who would like to bring their boats to show and talk about. I may have Scamp #1 on the water that day (I will have to clear this with her owner first, so no promises).

2. Scamp #6 will be the lead boat for the Cedar Key Small Craft Skills Academy, Cedar Key Florida. Saturday April 21st is registration and participant boat inspection day. Scamp will be available on the 21st if anyone would like to stop by for a look.

3. Scamp #3 may be on the water for the June 17th Small Craft Skills Academy held in Michigan. I am building #3 and time availability may delay her completion until July, we'll see. June 16th is registration day and if Scamp #3 is finished she will be on site for use as the Academy lead boat. I would be happy to let anyone interested take a look.

There will be Scamps at other Academies including the second Port Townsend Academy in September, Monterey Bay and Oklahoma.

[McMike]

Does anyone know if a SCAMP will be at the WBS in Mystic, CT this year? I would love to see one in person . . .

[kenjamin]

If all goes well my birdwing SCAMP will be there. It will have a smaller experimental rig with a radically curved mast that can store horizontally along the gunwale and will also have an inboard motor well for the somewhat over-sized 4 HP four-stroke that I'll be using for fishing. I just glued in the first major bulkhead today but all my parts are cut out and I'll be working on the build full time until the show. The mast and sail are already done from another project and I hope to buy the foil package to save some labor time. Hope to see you there and hopefully some other SCAMPs too.

[McMike]

If all goes well my birdwing SCAMP will be there. It will have a smaller experimental rig with a radically curved mast that can store horizontally along the gunwale and will also have an inboard motor well for the somewhat over-sized 4 HP four-stroke that I'll be using for fishing. I just glued in the first major bulkhead today but all my parts are cut out and I'll be working on the build full time until the show. The mast and sail are already done from another project and I hope to buy the foil package to save some labor time. Hope to see you there and hopefully some other SCAMPs too.

It'll be great if you can, I got to see your CY with your rig on it 3 years ago and I was impressed. I introduced myself but I won't blame you if you don't remember, you were fairly popular if I remember correctly.

I look forward to hearing about your progress.

[kenjamin]

Thanks for your interest in my grand experiment. With the SCAMP I hope to tighten up my build quality and present a more refined, more yacht-like boat. I think my flair for the casual "barbarian" style with the bamboo and rough finishes has held me back in the past from being seriously considered for the show's innovation award. I'm also trying to have my changes to the design OK'ed by Mr. Welford and thankfully he has shown some interest in how well the birdwing mast will perform. I especially like the way the birdwing matches up with the SCAMP. I mean you can always lay a mast down in a CY but the way I expect the birdwing to wrap around the little cabin should be especially sweet. Hopefully, if all goes well, the ability to step and unstep the mast on the water will also be considered.

[McMike]

Thanks for your interest in my grand experiment. With the SCAMP I hope to tighten up my build quality and present a more refined, more yacht-like boat. I think my flair for the casual "barbarian" style with the bamboo and rough finishes has held me back in the past from being seriously considered for the show's innovation award. I'm also trying to have my changes to the design OK'ed by Mr. Welford and thankfully he has shown some interest in how well the birdwing mast will perform. I especially like the way the birdwing matches up with the SCAMP. I mean you can always lay a mast down in a CY but the way I expect the birdwing to wrap around the little cabin should be especially sweet. Hopefully, if all goes well, the ability to step and unstep the mast on the water will also be considered.

Good luck with your pursuit of the award this year!!

[Howard Rice]

Back the sail to weather and lash the tiller to the opposite side. Im guessing you may need a dedicated sheet to be added to keep the boom over,bit like a gybe-preventer when running downwind.

I thought I might expand a bit on heaving to for Scamp sailors. Caveat, I have not yet done so aboard Scamp nor have I hove to with a balanced lug rig but have done so in other boats with other rigs. The difference will be the lack of a jib.


One of the criteria I used when selecting Scamp was whether I thought her balanced lug rig could be hove to. I am quite sure she will do fine. Heaving to is often misunderstood by sailors, yet it is such a good way to take a break (even sleep), eat something, go fishing for gear in a locker, make a repair, for a man overboard pick up, changing into dry clothes, etc.


Aboard Scamp with her standing lug I believe it might/should go something like this. Back the sail to weather. Push Scamps tiller to the opposite side and lash it to keep it in place. Just make sure the lashing is easily removable so her tiller can be freed if needed/wanted.


I am guessing it may be a good move to raise Scamps centerboard about 1/3 up (2/3rds still in the water). This should be tested to see just how far up it should be. It will also depend on the severity of the blow you are in. Raising her blade will primarily prevent heeling and possibly tripping over breaking waves.


The force of the wind should fill the flogging sail off and on dumping power as Scamp drifts securely like a duck between 90 degrees and somewhere around 130 degrees off the wind. The filling and dumping is caused by the counteracting force of the rudder being lashed to the opposite side of the boat as the backed sail (opposite forces at work).


I would suggest that if Scamp does not lie close enough to the wind that the sail needs another reef tucked in or perhaps the sailor needs to get down to a trysail depending on conditions.


Heaving to is not a defeat, it is a sound sailing skill and maneuver that can keep you safe, fed, well rested, etc. I am excited to test Scamp with her internal ballast and standing lug rig. I believe she will heave to nicely, we'll see.

[skaraborgcraft]

The art of heaving to seems a bit lost on some people. I used to crash on regardless of weather,cooking,navigating,trying to answer natures calling,and sleeping. My mental reasoning for constant progress was from years of being a motorcyle courier,when 1 minute of being at a standtill was a minimum of another mile lost....15 minutes waiting,thats 15 miles i could have been further up the road,and so on and on. At boat speeds of a healthy 5knots, heaving to cook and eat or do any of those things could be a worthwhile effort,but i confess to being a bit ruluctant to do so. I do remember being hove to off a port in Galicia (NW Spain) trying to work out the lights that wouldnt match with those in my pilot book, i spent the whole night on different tacks,but always hove to, and decided to wait till daybreak before heading in.....good job too as this is when i discovered my sextant had a built in error of 16 minutes, and this was not the bay i thought it was,which could have turned out worse had i tried to enter this rock infested bay. Heaving to is a saftey every sailor should take the time to learn,and how his craft is best set up and behaves in different weather. The mentality of the deadlines of life on terra firma, have no place when it comes to being at sea.

I do wonder if a guy rope on the forward end of the boom would be better placed to back Scamps main?

[Howard Rice]

Skaraborgcraft wrote:

"I do wonder if a guy rope on the forward end of the boom would be better placed to back Scamps main?"

Good thought. I had the same thought and will be trying all manner of backing methods when I sea trial Scamp. Having sailed #1 in heavy air I am confident she will do just fine parked in moderate conditions or a blow.

I relate to your thoughts about hesitating to heave to. I have been in that state of mind numerous times. Over time and experience I am much better at reefing before I need to and parking for a look see, to make a tricky pass at first light, etc. I also figure self rescue, capsize testing, reefing and heaving are skills all cruising sailors should think about as much as rigging, helping technique, docking and other skills.

"Preparation, simplicity, self sufficiency" ought to be the small boat sailors mantra. When I set out I do not want to put anyone else in danger or inconvenience them because I am ill prepared. Heaving to is part of this mix.

It can be tiring to sail longer distances in a small boat. Being able to hove to (even in moderate air) is a valuable safety skill.

I am interested if others reading this have any heave to experience with the standing lug rig.

It should be noted that heaving to need not be a harrowing experience. Quite the opposite is true, it is how sailors avoid harrowing. It can be harrowing leading up heaving to. Once my boat is slowly jogging along (backing and filling) life becomes allot calmer.

[Pete E]

Just a question I was about to ask about heaving to in a Scamp. I will be looking forward to the answer. Hull No. 52 in the process of being built.

[Old Dryfoot]

I once asked about heaving to in a SCAMP and the responses I received were less than informative. This was more than compensation for that.

Thank you all, and a special nod to Howard for all of his efforts in educating us all on SCAMPS abilities and characteristics.

[john welsford]

As the designer, there were many things to be considered when drawing SCAMP, and heaving to was one compromise that had to be considered. One of the few disadvantages of that rig is that the center of windage goes very far forward when the sail is eased, which makes heaving to in the normal sense unworkable. I had anticipated that in a heavy squall the sail be dropped, or, if the owner of the boat were considering sailing in conditions that a small boat would not normally encounter, that a storm trysail be permanently laced to the mast and kept bagged on the cabin top with the sheets already run through their leads. I imagine that the back could be secured there by lacings around the lower mast at the forward end and a couple of webbing straps with super velcro to secure them, and a zipper on the bag to retain the sail.
To set this would require that the main be dropped into its lazyjacks, the top parrel or halyard be undone or unclipped taking care to tie the sail, the boom and yard so it did not blow overboard, unzip the trysail bag and hoist with its own halyard then sheet in, the halyard being permanently in place as with the sheets.
The balance lugsail having no lacings of the luff to the mast makes this practical and while it sounds like a lot of effort to secure the main ( thats the normal working sail and I'll call it the "mainsail" in spite of it being the only sail normally used) its a great deal less work than setting a storm trysail on a bigger boat and with the cockpit and mast located relative to each other as they are, there is no deck work and it can be all done from within the security of the cockpit.

One of the objectives of the trysail is to bring the center of windage back far enough so the boat with tiller to leeward will lie somewhat head up making slow forward and sideways progress.
It may be too, that this can be accomplished by lowering the sail right down into the lazyjacks, putting a tie around the spars at the forward end then pulling the halyard up enough to peak the yard up enough to create windage aft.

For very short duration "bullets" I have with predecessors of this design with similar rigs just let the sail flag forward and run straight downwind, SCAMP does that fine, Tom P and I spent half an hour like that on Lake Eufauala and it was markedly more relaxed than before I let the sheet run.

The rig as drawn has a lot of advantages, but heaving to is not one of them. I imagine that sail down and sea anchor out will be the best choice of it gets to a survival situation.

John Welsford

Skaraborgcraft wrote:

"I do wonder if a guy rope on the forward end of the boom would be better placed to back Scamps main?"

Good thought. I had the same thought and will be trying all manner of backing methods when I sea trial Scamp. Having sailed #1 in heavy air I am confident she will do just fine parked in moderate conditions or a blow.

I relate to your thoughts about hesitating to heave to. I have been in that state of mind numerous times. Over time and experience I am much better at reefing before I need to and parking for a look see, to make a tricky pass at first light, etc. I also figure self rescue, capsize testing, reefing and heaving are skills all cruising sailors should think about as much as rigging, helping technique, docking and other skills.

"Preparation, simplicity, self sufficiency" ought to be the small boat sailors mantra. When I set out I do not want to put anyone else in danger or inconvenience them because I am ill prepared. Heaving to is part of this mix.

It can be tiring to sail longer distances in a small boat. Being able to hove to (even in moderate air) is a valuable safety skill.

I am interested if others reading this have any heave to experience with the standing lug rig.

It should be noted that heaving to need not be a harrowing experience. Quite the opposite is true, it is how sailors avoid harrowing. It can be harrowing leading up heaving to. Once my boat is slowly jogging along (backing and filling) life becomes allot calmer.

[Howard Rice]

Hello John

You wrote:

"One of the objectives of the trysail is to bring the center of windage back far enough so the boat with tiller to leeward will lie somewhat head up making slow forward and sideways progress.
It may be too, that this can be accomplished by lowering the sail right down into the lazyjacks, putting a tie around the spars at the forward end then pulling the halyard up enough to peak the yard up enough to create windage aft.

For very short duration "bullets" I have with predecessors of this design with similar rigs just let the sail flag forward and run straight downwind, SCAMP does that fine, Tom P and I spent half an hour like that on Lake Eufauala and it was markedly more relaxed than before I let the sheet run.

The rig as drawn has a lot of advantages, but heaving to is not one of them. I imagine that sail down and sea anchor out will be the best choice of it gets to a survival situation."

Thank you for the information. Just last evening driving along I was going over and over the heaving to question in my brain puzzling over the rig CE being too far forward. I just couldn't quite get my head around how to heave to effectively if at all, although I do know Scamp can be parked or slowed to a jog having done so several times during sailing and capsize testing.

Since I plan to have a trysail aboard and use lazy jacks I should be good for most circumstances leading to sail down and hanging on a sea anchor. I still plan to try and answer the "can I heave to in Scamp?" question, sea trials should provide answers. It is likely not possible in the common sense of heaving to as you have stated. Your insights help me set up for trials more effectively. Seeking new methods for handling small boats is interesting work.

I like the idea of tying the forward end of the spars and hoisting a wedge as you have detailed above. I had been thinking of this as one of the options I plan to sea trial. I have done the down wind sheet eased sail gently flogging aboard Scamp during the winter sea trial I conducted in December 2010, it works well as you have stated for short spells. I cruise a Mirror Dinghy and Mirrors heave to nicely with the jib up. I am a gaff cutter sailor, favorite rig. Blueberry is a gaff cutter and she heaves to nicely.

As stated I have no experience heaving to with a standing lug. I rebuilt and sailed a standing lug cruising dinghy for three years in the waters of Pohnpei but never had the need to heave to. I typically run off with sail eased (this is often how I handle my dinghy in Pohnpei when encountering line squalls). I did my passages to the outer islands of Pakin and Ahnt aboard my sailing canoe and never heave to in my canoe. When I want to park I roll up the jib and either flog the main (like Scamp my canoe has no stays) drifting sideways. Next option is drop the rig and park using my forward deck mounted sea anchor system. The second option comes in to play when the beam to seas make me feel unstable or if its blowing so hard or I have to stop or if I make a long stop and flogging the sail doesn't make sense.

One of the elements I will use aboard Scamp will be a fore deck mounted control line operated sea anchor system. I have already worked this out based on a design I put together and use on other small boats I cruise, works very well. Sometimes it is just smart to stop.

In conclusion I figure Scamp with three reefs in, sail eased off to a flog downwind should take care of most short time windy situations where I want to park (beam to will be the most common circumstance, drifting along, Scamp does this very well). The standing lug is a fantastic rig in the parked mode as the rig weathercocks and is very quiet.

As always John thanks for your insight.
Best,
howard



John Welsford[/QUOTE]