SCAMP envy/lust

[john welsford]

It would depend a great deal on the standard of finish required, and I've not built one myself, but would guess at about 160/180 hours to get her ready to paint ( lockers and underfloor painted)
Mike Monies has built two, one not quite complete as we write. I'll ask.
John Welsford

I've had a look but couldn't find a good answer; about how long would it take a competent (professional) woodworker to build SCAMP? I have a little experience with epoxy so I don't see the learning curve being too hard for me in that respect either. Let's assume, for now, that I would not buy the CNC kit.

[WI-Tom]

I agree with a couple of points:

1. I don't like pram bows, but I like SCAMP. It has the look of a pugnacious bulldog, or (even more so) an angry duckling. It's cool. Not because of the pram bow, but not despite the pram bow, either. There's a harmony to the entire design that just looks right. And women really seem to dig it--that alone ought to make it worth a lot to husbands like me who have a hard time dragging their wives aboard.

2. SCAMP is not a small boat at all. It's a very high-volume boat, with big freeboard and lots of room. But somehow it keeps almost all the convenience of a much smaller boat.

3. I'm sure others have made this point, but SCAMP is way faster than it deserves to be if you go by looks or length. I got to sail with John Welsford in the red SCAMP at Oklahoma and even with an inexperienced helmsman (me), we handily outdistanced many longer boats on a 4-mile windward leg. Of course, a lot of that had to do with John telling me where to steer!

Tom

[MMonies]

Mike Monies here. I think John W's estimate of time to build a hull to painting stage of about 180 hours is probably correct.
Because I was cutting and building two simultaneously on the Boat Palace floor, side by side, it may have speeded things a bit but it made it hard to judge accurate build time for just one hull. I was able to move from hull one to hull two with not much down time.

Because we were working before plans were actually complete for the 11'11" hull I was referencing John W's original 10'4" version's plans in the build. There are no changes in the hulls' design but a few changes such as the mast stepping system which would slow things down a bit, as a lot of fitting of pieces is required. The Scamp forum on SCA's site documents and includes photos of the builds. There are also a lot of build photos over on our Sail Oklahoma! group site, http://groups.yahoo.com/group/SailOklahoma/ in the photo albums. Hundreds, actually.

Everywhere I take the Red Scamp people comment on the "cuteness" and remark that it reminds them of a little toy boat.
This is probably due to the red and white color scheme. It is a total "chick magnet" from ages two to eighty women, all ages seem to love it.

Some of the conditions I have sailed the Red Scamp in would give pause to most boats,even larger ones. It is a tough and tenacious craft. I completely refinished her after this summer, she deserved it, and she is like new again.

For anyone who is near Lake Havasu, Arizona and would like to see or ride/sail in her, I invite you to come in February, 2012 to the Pocket Cruisers Covention, where she will be along with Howard Rice, myself and hopefully Dan Phy's #6 Scamp.

Mike Monies

[WI-Tom]

Mike Monies here.

Welcome to the Forum, Mike--about time you showed up here. Two posts? You have enough material for 2,000--and that's just from this year's Everglades Challenge!

Take care, and thanks again for hosting Sail Oklahoma. I don't know any nicer folks than you and your family. Later,

Tom

[David G]

Welcome, Mike!

[McMike]

Thank you John and Mike.

[Howard Rice]

Scamp Selected As The Primary Instructional Boat For The 2012 Small Craft Skills Academy

An FYI for those interested in Scamp or who are in the process of building one.

I have chosen Scamp as the primary instructional/lead boat for the 2012 Small Craft Skills Academy series. I am now building Scamp hull #3 for use as the primary Academy work boat (with a refined work boat finish). Scamp will be utilized at the Academies side by side with a powered inflatable.

I selected Scamp because all of the reasons that make her a safe, maneuverable and practical day sailor and cruiser means she is a solid choice for instructional purposes. For my tastes I like wooden boats and this factor weighed in on my selection for lead boat.

Interest and enrollment in the Academy program has bit of a (nice) surprise. So many sailors have registered and are bringing a very diverse range of boats from many current designers. These include Michalak, Welsford, Ougthred, Storer and others, several Drascombes, custom small cruisers, trailer sailors, a cruising catamaran and many different kinds of open cruising boats both home built and commercially produced. All of these boats are larger than the Scamp.

Utilizing Scamp as my ride and lead boat will allow me to move quickly between boats (she can just about be turned around in her own length) and to maneuver in close around docks.

I see a great opportunity through the Academy to assess (contrast/compare) many different kinds of boats side by side in a variety of on water situations doing similar maneuvers. I am curious to see how Scamp stacks up. I expect she will hold her own very nicely.

I am planning to have video footage shot when possible and to publish post Academy reports including contrast/comparison analysis of different boats.

Is there anything that sailors reading this would like to see included in the contrast/comparison opportunity?

Any maneuvers or comparison photos you folks might like to see? Docking, beach landings through surf, capsize comparisons, etc?


howard rice
facilitator
www.smallcraftacademy.com

[htom]

It seems every year in some book or magazine I come across a "when you have to make your dinghy a lifeboat" article. SCAMP, of course, is intended as neither, but I wonder how she'd do in that double task. How well does she tow (kinda big to put on deck.)

[WI-Tom]

Is there anything that sailors reading this would like to see included in the contrast/comparison opportunity?

Any maneuvers or comparison photos you folks might like to see? Docking, beach landings through surf, capsize comparisons, etc?

How about ease of reefing? Speed to set up, rig, and launch from trailer? Ability for some kind of hands-off self steering? Method of heaving to/lying ahull for a rest when needed?

Tom Pamperin

[Howard Rice]

Hi Tom and htom.

Great questions, I am taking notes. Please keep the ideas coming.

I am looking for just the sort of questions both of you are posing to add to a contrast/comparison review of all of the different boats coming to the Academies. Seems like a great opportunity to step from one boat to the next and the next and compare at the moment in many situations from launching to self rescue.
Tom it will be great to get your input from hands on sailing during the Straits of Mackinaw Academy. I am looking forward to sailing with you there. A few sailors are coming as "crew" and will be moving around through different boats. They will have a very good opportunity to do comparisons. Lucky me, I will have the opportunity to sail aboard all boats during the registration day boat check out process. It will be interesting comparing a Melonseed with a Pelican, etc.
Best,
howard

[wtarzia]

As always for me, windward performance comparisons (pointing and footing) with actual data and definitions instead of vague attestations like "goes to windward well" which seems to be the end of all such discussions about knock-about sailboats. I know it's complicated but some attempt like that would be appreciated. --Wade

[john welsford]

As always for me, windward performance comparisons (pointing and footing) with actual data and definitions instead of vague attestations like "goes to windward well" which seems to be the end of all such discussions about knock-about sailboats. I know it's complicated but some attempt like that would be appreciated. --Wade

How about I describe my impression of Mike Monies Red SCAMP so.
With a polytarp sail that had done a considerable mileage, and which would benefit from a recut as a consequence of having been sailed very hard in some quite extreme conditions. With me on the helm not yet used to the boat and how best to set up this particular sail and set of spars up for best performance, in 10/12 knots of wind in fresh water, the famous Red SCAMP was able to point just above 45 deg, but made a better VMG with a speed of just under hull speed at just over 45deg to the apparent wind.
She was not particularly sensitive to fore and aft trim as long as she was not stern down, but did benefit from accurate control of heel, being fastest at about 10 deg of heel. She had a nice balance to the helm, steering well even when a little overpowered, and was able to sail at least as fast as several other longer boats with which we were in company.

Downwind she's stable and controllable running and reaching she will exceed hull speed so in theory is planing but not as freely as a lightweight racer with a very straight run, I'd say a, S/L ratio of about 2 which would be 6 or 7 knots.
In very light conditions she sails extremely well, sailing away from a lot of much bigger boats on all points of sail.

I'm very pleased with her in all respects.

John Welsford

[john welsford]

I'm very much looking forward to reading and watching the reports Howard,

John Welsford

Scamp Selected As The Primary Instructional Boat For The 2012 Small Craft Skills Academy

An FYI for those interested in Scamp or who are in the process of building one.

I have chosen Scamp as the primary instructional/lead boat for the 2012 Small Craft Skills Academy series. I am now building Scamp hull #3 for use as the primary Academy work boat (with a refined work boat finish). Scamp will be utilized at the Academies side by side with a powered inflatable.

I selected Scamp because all of the reasons that make her a safe, maneuverable and practical day sailor and cruiser means she is a solid choice for instructional purposes. For my tastes I like wooden boats and this factor weighed in on my selection for lead boat.

Interest and enrollment in the Academy program has bit of a (nice) surprise. So many sailors have registered and are bringing a very diverse range of boats from many current designers. These include Michalak, Welsford, Ougthred, Storer and others, several Drascombes, custom small cruisers, trailer sailors, a cruising catamaran and many different kinds of open cruising boats both home built and commercially produced. All of these boats are larger than the Scamp.

Utilizing Scamp as my ride and lead boat will allow me to move quickly between boats (she can just about be turned around in her own length) and to maneuver in close around docks.

I see a great opportunity through the Academy to assess (contrast/compare) many different kinds of boats side by side in a variety of on water situations doing similar maneuvers. I am curious to see how Scamp stacks up. I expect she will hold her own very nicely.

I am planning to have video footage shot when possible and to publish post Academy reports including contrast/comparison analysis of different boats.

Is there anything that sailors reading this would like to see included in the contrast/comparison opportunity?

Any maneuvers or comparison photos you folks might like to see? Docking, beach landings through surf, capsize comparisons, etc?


howard rice
facilitator
www.smallcraftacademy.com

[kenjamin]

I've been waiting two weeks now for my SCAMP plans to get to me. Could somebody please tell me how many sheets of what thicknesses of plywood to order so I can at least get that ordered? Thanks in advance guys.

[MMonies]

Someone else who has plans will have to answer that one, as I never got the building instructions or materials list for the SCA Scamp at 11'11". I built my two Scamps from prototype plans and the building and materials list were not included.

About her towing ability, she is just a bigger Tender Behind and Sherpa, both of which tow extremely well as dinghys for bigger boats. However, I had opportunity in May, 2011 to be towed a considerable distance by a 30 foot O'Day during a bucket run race here on Lake Eufaula. My repaired mast broke in the high winds that day early on the race, the O'Day came to our rescue, towed my partner and I in the Scamp about 8 miles and still won the race.

How did she tow? Straight and fast! We were well above hull speed for the Scamp.

Mike Monies

[WI-Tom]

Howard,

another question to maybe explore at the Academies this summer: how does each boat handle with varied loading?

For long salt-water trips, the need to carry water suggests the need for a boat that handles well when heavily loaded. My ambitions tend to run to long (multi-week) unsupported cruises in fairly remote locations. At the same time, the boat will need to handle well near the end of the trip (or for daysailing) when those water jugs are empty. (Unless replaced with water ballast along the way, I suppose--but since my boat won't have a motor, I'd prefer to let it get lighter for rowing).

Tom

[wtarzia]

... in 10/12 knots of wind in fresh water, the famous Red SCAMP was able to point just above 45 deg, but made a better VMG with a speed of just under hull speed at just over 45deg to the apparent wind.
...

--- Thank you. So 45 degrees VMG to the apparent wind would mean a course against the true wind of what? 55 degrees? --Wade

[WI-Tom]

Howard,

another couple of questions to consider: ease of striking the entire rig while at sea? And methods of handling conditions at sea that are too dangerous or exhausting to handle sailing in? (I suppose that's really the same as my earlier question about heaving to or lying ahull--some way to cope with getting caught out in tough conditions when you can't get to shelter).

Tom

[ramonred]

Howard,

Have you set the tuition yet for the May Port Townsend academy?

Thanks

Ramon

[keyhavenpotterer]

I've been waiting two weeks now for my SCAMP plans to get to me. Could somebody please tell me how many sheets of what thicknesses of plywood to order so I can at least get that ordered? Thanks in advance guys.

Number of sheets are

6mm four sheets
9mm eight sheets
18mm one sheet - needs about 1/2 the sheet to cut one set of foils
chip board for the building jig two sheets

Brian

[Howard Rice]

Hi Ramon
The registration fee is on the web site, $375 plus a nominal logistics fee for the optional Academy cruise.
$375 is the introductory price for reservations made and confirmed with a deposit postmarked by December 30th, 2011.
After December 30th the registration fee is $475. Deposits and full registration fees are fully refundable.

Ramon if you are interested in Port Townsend let me know because it may be fully booked depending on the final deposits coming in.
A second Port Townsend Academy is under consideration and we have been taking names of those who want to register, September 2012.

You can register through the Academy web site.

Thanks,
howard

Howard,

Have you set the tuition yet for the May Port Townsend academy?

Thanks

Ramon

[Howard Rice]

Hello Tom and Other Posting Suggestions.

This is one right in my scope of interest. I am writing all of these suggestions down and plan to meld them into a standard boat assessment form for. This will enable assessing all of the boats at the Academies on an equal footing. This should be very interesting data. I can also say here that it won't just be me making the assessments. The Academy series is a collaborative learning format. I will be asking others to give their input and observations as well.

I will write it up as a post Academy document that I hope may be of value to others.
howard

Howard,

another couple of questions to consider: ease of striking the entire rig while at sea? And methods of handling conditions at sea that are too dangerous or exhausting to handle sailing in? (I suppose that's really the same as my earlier question about heaving to or lying ahull--some way to cope with getting caught out in tough conditions when you can't get to shelter).

Tom

[IanHowick]

For the Academy:

Perhaps this needs a different thread, it's starting to drift away from SCAMP once more, but it's great there will be some opportunities to test out all sorts of small boats in challenging conditions and find out what does and doesn't work.

Something that interests me is what works (and doesn't work) in terms of letting you push the limits of an existing (smallish open) boat. Things like additional buoyancy, air bags or EVA/Polystyrene foam, where is best to put it to aid recovery from a capsize.

People talk about too much buoyancy along the gunwales holding the boat up too high on it's side and promoting full inversion/making it harder to recover from same, is this true/ what are some solutions that make it easier to recover with minimal bailing?

Also, what works with ballast, water or otherwise. James McMurren puts quite a lot of (lead?) ballast in the bottom of his Rowan, I'm curious if 10 - 16 kg of lead cast inside the centreboard of one of these lightish boats makes much difference to the stability at the point the gunwale is about to go under.

Ian

[kenjamin]

Thanks Brian, I appreciate your help. Small Craft Advisor Magazine said they might send me another set (hopefully by a different carrier) if I haven't received them by middle of next week but at least I can go ahead and order the ply. Thanks again.

[Howard Rice]

Howard,

another couple of questions to consider: ease of striking the entire rig while at sea? And methods of handling conditions at sea that are too dangerous or exhausting to handle sailing in? (I suppose that's really the same as my earlier question about heaving to or lying ahull--some way to cope with getting caught out in tough conditions when you can't get to shelter).

Tom

Hi Tom

The contrasting, comparing and writing up findings on boats is secondary to the Academy instructional focus but nonetheless an opportunity. The Academy is a unique setting offering sailors the chance to learn from both experienced sailors and from each other. Much useful information across topics ranging from boat design features, rigging, sailing characteristics to low impact shoreline travel and more should come forth from the four Academies. It will be interesting to see how different sailors in different boats approach small boat cruising preparation, set up and challenges once underway. I look forward to putting this information together and making it available.

One element of the Academy that we cannot control is the weather and sailing conditions for the days we meet. The ideal would be a different condition each day including one heavy air day, one sunny and 15 kts, a day of pea soup fog, etc. We will sail what we get. If there is little or no wind sailors will still be able to learn standardized seamanship procedures, best practices and many skills. We can still test and assess rig striking, reefing systems, etc.

During the Academy we will be looking at each participants boat for buoyancy, self rescue, ease of reefing underway, ease of striking the rig underway, ease of re-rigging underway, rig stowage, how boats handle in waves, heaving to, capsize/recovery/re-entry/sail away, sleeping aboard underway, night sailing, ease of anchoring, going ashore through surf and much more. The aim is to help sailors improve their boats.

We hope to do some of this comparison (especially in heavy air) on the water if we have the right conditions. If it blows hard I will demonstrate heavy air maneuvers aboard Scamp and possibly other boats. If any of the participants prove able they can practice maneuvers with safety boats standing by and/or I will join them aboard their boats if they wish. Academy participants are not required to go on or in the water, only if they wish and if the instructors feel they can handle a given skill practice situation.

The Academies should prove to be challenging, informative and fun..........For me sailing Scamp in and around all kinds of small boats will be a great learning opportunity. Last September I had the opportunity to sail Scamp in a large fleet of boats (NW Woodenboat Festival Sunday Parade of Sail) with John Welsford and his lovely bride aboard (yes thats three people and a full ballast tank). Scamp was nimble, oddly fast in the light air and able to make her way handily in so much traffic. In very light air we quietly passed many boats inch by inch and many passed us but generally only much longer waterline boats. Out there amongst all those beautiful wood boats Scamp felt like a true Pocket Yacht, all eleven feet eleven inches of her.

howard

A few shots of Scamp:

Demonstrating that sneaky speed thing with three adults aboard and a full ballast tank.
I roughly calculate that to be about a 700 pound pay load. Not bad at all in such light air.

Fleet Sailing in light air. Very nice performance for such a short waterline. It's fun to pass larger boats.

Thought this one might stir up some thinking about getting out in a small boat. A nice snappy cold sunset soon shot. Friend Russell Brown in one of his superb PT Watercraft nesting dinghies seeing me off. Scamps first overnight, Port Townsend 12/27/2010.

[SeaB]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the lugsail? Square footage? Thanks

[David G]

SeaB - area is 90 sq. ft. IIRC

[Howard Rice]

Does anyone know the dimensions of the lugsail? Square footage? Thanks

100 square feet

[MMonies]

My Red Scamp has 100 square foot lug sail made by Dave Gray of PolySail International. I sailed this sail hard for seven months, one high wind event after the other. They have held up very well, stretched very little.

Mike Monies

[David G]

That's right... 100 sq. ft. 90 was for the original, slightly smaller boat.

[Howard Rice]

I have designed a 100 sq ft bi-radial cut lug for Scamp #3. Planning to fire up my small at home loft floor, oil the Bernina and and build it in March/April.
A head scratcher to design (cutting should also be a challenge) but should give a very stable and highly controllable solid foil shape across the wind range. The trick as with most sails is getting a sail that is boiler plate flat with a touch of uniform foil for the upper wind ranges and a full sail for the lower ranges. The advantage of designing and cutting my own sails is I can match them to spar flex and adjust as I build.

[Howard Rice]

Hey Dave
You are right Scamp design version 1 had a 90 sq ft sail. Josh was smart in that he solicited much opinion as to final sail size for the final Scamp design. I himhawed a bit but finally pitched in my vote for the 100 sq ft rig. I really liked the sail on Scamp #1 and feel the sail loft Josh used (Port Townsend Sails) did a very nice job. I believe Josh also had a hand in finishing the sail. I found #1's sail to maintain a clean foil across the wind range.

I have decided to take lug sail shape to a different level using a more difficult to design and build bi-radial shape. I sometimes build my own sails so I can get exactly what I want. I see the bi-radial design as a bit of modern thinking applied to the classic balanced lug sail shape.

I believe the bi-radial effort and experimentation will pay off and make Scamps "sneaky speed" even a little sneakier. For me sneaky speed means bigger boat sailors will always be looking over their shoulders and wondering why that pram bowed little mite of a boat keeps sneaking up on them.

I experienced this sneaky speed in action with John Welsford and his lovely wife aboard at the NW Woodenboat Festival Parade of Sail. I seriously doubt Scamps speed was in any way related to my helmsmanship and was more likely related to Johns punning sense of humor. We laughed so hard all afternoon we likely blew our way forward! Oh his poor long suffering angel of a wife. Not to worry though any crick in the neck bigger boat sailors get from looking over their shoulders as Scamp inches up would soon be cured by a lovely straight ahead view of her nice looking transom. All in good fun of course.

Racing Scamp, nah. But one must approach the age old question of "When are two boats racing?"....answer, "Whenever they are in sight of each other." I believe Scamp will win her fair share of these quiet yet desperate battles. Is Scamp a racing machine? Far from it but I doubt she will be the last boat home in most circumstances in spite of her diminutive size.

Scamp seems to be one of those rare bumble bee type designs. The big black and yellow bumble bee should not be able to fly with such aplomb but it does.
The pram bowed little mite of a boat Scamp sure can sail, although on first blush one wouldn't think so. Hoping the approximate 90 sailors who have purchased plans and kits will get to building while the snow flies, because we need a Scamp OD class and regatta get together!

Speaking of kits vs plans. The plan set is quite affordable and in my opinion so is the kit. What is your time worth? The kit will give any builder a quantum leap forward in the building process (even if this is a first build). You will save so much work cutting and beveling parts if you opt for the kit. This is what I did as my time is very tight. My build is happening in the US. I fly in on work related travel and make short windows of intense build time (I actually began the build in Sept). With the kit any builder will have a hull in a matter of days. An excellent kit in my opinion and superbly cut by Brandon and company at Turning Point Design. Josh and Simeon are finalizing the build manual now although the manual has been available all along. Mike Monies pioneered the first plan build and he did it without the manual.

[kenjamin]

Speaking of experimentation, Mr. Welsford has tentatively agreed to a birdwing masted SCAMP but I'm in a bit of a problem as to which of my two birdwing masts to apply to the SCAMP. The main mast from my Caledonia Yawl sets about 94 sq. feet of sail which would seem like the obvious choice at first except for the fact that it is very much over-built and heavy. Much of that weight is in the tricky lower portion of the mast and I'm fairly certain that I could literally shave a few pounds off when I refinish the mast so I think I could make the main mast work and work well. The problem is that the smaller birdwing mast that I built for Xena's mizzen (and never used because it was too big) is much more refined as it is my third prototype and has much less of a weight problem. The birdwing mizzen mast only sets about 63 square feet of sail but it will also set a headsail on a bowsprit. I thought about adding another patch of sail off the transom and going with a yawl rig although now I've come to realize that the boat may be just too short for that plan.

Would any of you owners of the already built SCAMPs be willing to measure the weights of the mast and its yard so that I could make a more informed decision?

[outofthenorm]

I was just reading the Scamp page at Small Craft Advisor. It mentions that new plans include an after cabin "veranda" that functions like a hard dodger. Does anyone know what that looks like?

- Norm

[outofthenorm]

Okay, never kind. I think I get it now. I just realized that there is no bulkhead at the aft end of the "cuddy", and what I was thinking of as the cuddy is actually the "veranda".

- Norm

[MMonies]

My mast on the Red Scamp is of aluminum, not wood, as JohnW had specified on his original plans. It is 16 1/2 feet long, weighs 16 lbs.

The mast is made of one 12 foot section of 3 inch x .065 aluminum and six feet of 2 1/2 inch x .065, and the boom and yard are 1 1/2 inch x .065. I have never weighed these but they are very light and weighing them would require removing the sail which is laced stored in place.

I love my aluminum mast and will probably never do anything else, as John Welsford specifies aluminum on all his plans.

The two different size aluminum tubing is because I use the method that Graham Byrnes recommends for all his B and B masts, also aluminum, which is two parts that fit inside the other. I have photos of this method in albums on Sail Oklahoma but I have also suggested seriously to Graham that he do a tutorial on this method. Hopefully he is working on it as he thought it was a good idea.

Mike Monies

[kenjamin]

Aluminum's alright if you can't have anything else but laminated wood is pretty darn strong, pretty darn pretty, durable, fatigue-resistant, and it floats!

[kenjamin]

Speaking of experimentation, Mr. Welsford has tentatively agreed to a birdwing masted SCAMP but I'm in a bit of a problem as to which of my two birdwing masts to apply to the SCAMP. The main mast from my Caledonia Yawl sets about 94 sq. feet of sail which would seem like the obvious choice at first except for the fact that it is very much over-built and heavy. Much of that weight is in the tricky lower portion of the mast and I'm fairly certain that I could literally shave a few pounds off when I refinish the mast so I think I could make the main mast work and work well. The problem is that the smaller birdwing mast that I built for Xena's mizzen (and never used because it was too big) is much more refined as it is my third prototype and has much less of a weight problem. The birdwing mizzen mast only sets about 63 square feet of sail but it will also set a headsail on a bowsprit. I thought about adding another patch of sail off the transom and going with a yawl rig although now I've come to realize that the boat may be just too short for that plan.

Would any of you owners of the already built SCAMPs be willing to measure the weights of the wooden mast and its wooden yard so that I could make a more informed decision?

Could somebody help me out a little? Bathroom scale accuracy would be fine with me.

[john welsford]

Could somebody help me out a little? Bathroom scale accuracy would be fine with me.

My stability calcs notes say mast 7.2 kg, yard 3.5 kg, boom 4.25 kg. The boat has exeptional stability for her size, and a little more than that wont hurt as long as the extra weight is not too high up.

John Welsford

[kenjamin]

Thank you, Mr. Welsford. Seems like the smaller mast would be more appropriate but I won't be winning any SCAMP races unless it's really blowing and their big lugsail is reefed. For my local waters it seems like my little 4HP Yamaha will be playing more of a major role anyway as I'm three miles down the Matanzas River, the current's not always flowing in the right direction, and although the river is wide enough, there is so much traffic that tacking can be a real adventure. Many of the motor boats don't understand why us sailboats want to cross in front of them all the time and some of them haven't gotten the memo yet that sail driven boats are supposed to have the right of way. The motor will allow me to strike off at a moment's notice without regard to the tide or high traffic conditions. The 4HP is a bit oversized for the boat but I'd rather sit next to a 4HP at half throttle than a 2HP going all out. The smaller mast might also allow for the possibility of storing it along the gunnel for fishing or rowing in a blow when the motor fails. I'll be photographing the SCAMP profile from my plans (that I finally got) and superimposing the smaller birdwing rig to give you an idea of the scale of the thing. I'll be able to scale it accurately in Adobe Illustrator. Thanks again for your help. You'll be getting a letter from me fairly soon. Merry Christmas!

Photographed the SCAMP profile last night and superimposed a drawing of my birdwing mast on it. I scaled it using the length of of the boat at 12 feet – accurate enough. Its little main looks tiny on top of the big lugsail but for my usage, I think it will serve me well as an everyday rig. It still leaves me the option of building a full race mast for competition. I like what Howard Rice said in his #134 post...one must approach the age old question of "When are two boats racing?"....answer, "Whenever they are in sight of each other." The old dory fishermen used to have three rigs they would use – one was for everyday use, one for stormy conditions, and one for race day. I could continue that tradition. See, I'm not against tradition. I appreciate it very much. But I will go to my grave saying that the mast should be the most aerodynamically efficient piece on the boat and everything else should be adjusted accordingly. My masts are only crude approximations of what I would like to see and cutting a sail for them is pretty much a nightmare for designers but my masts are only a design direction, not a destination that has been reached.

[Howard Rice]

Thought folks here might like to see a photo of Scamp #1 with a little air in her wing. This was a day I was at the helm off Port Townsend and she powered.....every time I write the word "powered" I chuckle. An 11' 11" dinghy powering along, but she does due to her moderate displacement. Her ride is not erratic or tippy, she goes where she looks in just about any wind. I have had her out in high wind, gusty conditions and it was god fun.

An important Scamp feature is that sailors who want to can press sail in heavy air (I have one reef in in this photo). If the sailor does find a way to capsize Scamp (hard to do) righting/re-entry and the critical sail away without bailing is easy. Testing has proven it can be done with Scamp. This ability should give sailors who want to experience heavy air in a sailing dinghy the confidence that they have a safe platform to get out and learn aboard.

Heavy air or storm sailing scares many sailors and they avoid it at all costs. Fair enough, however this means they are not really ready or fully rounded as sailors because some day in the future they are likely to be caught out.

The only way to master heavy air is to sail in heavy air. Prudence, preparation, a good boat and measured experimentation can increase full range seamanship skills and overall sailing knowledge making better sailors. I think Scamp fits the bill as a boat sailors both new and experienced can trust to get it done.

Thanks for reading.

[kenjamin]

[QUOTE=Howard Rice;3233364
An important Scamp feature is that sailors who want to can press sail in heavy air (I have one reef in in this photo). If the sailor does find a way to capsize Scamp (hard to do) righting/re-entry and the critical sail away without bailing is easy. Testing has proven it can be done with Scamp. This ability should give sailors who want to experience heavy air in a sailing dinghy the confidence that they have a safe platform to get out and learn aboard. [/QUOTE]

Mr. Rice, I think you really hit the nail on its head with this statement. It is the scale of SCAMP that makes it so appealing to me. I've got a perfectly good Caledonia Yawl but it will be nice to have a smaller boat that I can handle more easily and safely by myself without needing a crew of two or three to help me when handling the bigger boat. I especially appreciate the capsize testing that you've done with SCAMP. I feel like SCAMP is of the scale that will make it possible for me to handle when I really do get old ten or fifteen years from now.

Here's another shot I found of SCAMP. These guys look like they're in a good position to have some fun. Photo by Debra Colvin.

[Howard Rice]

Hello Kenjamin
The Scamp I have test sailed and sailed at the Woodeboat Festival is Scamp #1, which belongs to SCA editor Josh Colvin. The photo here was taken by Debra Colvin.
In this photo Josh Colvin and Kees Prins are aboard, Kees at the helm. I believe this photo is from the very first Scamp sail, November 2010. I sailed her for the first overnight just over a month later in winter conditions (wind chill 10F) and some real air. I spent one night aboard and had a great time.
howard

Mr. Rice, I think you really hit the nail on its head with this statement. It is the scale of SCAMP that makes it so appealing to me. I've got a perfectly good Caledonia Yawl but it will be nice to have a smaller boat that I can handle more easily and safely by myself without needing a crew of two or three to help me when handling the bigger boat. I especially appreciate the capsize testing that you've done with SCAMP. I feel like SCAMP is of the scale that will make it possible for me to handle when I really do get old ten or fifteen years from now.

Here's another shot I found of your SCAMP. You guys look like you're in a good position to have some fun. I don't know who actually shot these pictures – do you?

[SeaB]

I will be ordering plans, hopefully tomorrow, but I'm very keen to get a couple of questions answered. Answers to these will help with build planning and timing. I have searched this thread and several at SMJ without coming up with answers.

It appears that the primary method is stitch and glue with glass tape and epoxy, some people intend to epoxy encapusulate which I assume to mean coating all surfaces with 6?oz. glass and epoxy, although it could refer to simple epoxy coating without glass I suppose.

The inference being that some intend to forego the following expoxy "encapsulation" and just use quality paint.

There are obvious differences in cost as well as the total amount of epoxy that needs to be used, I am well aware that coating both sides of a panel with glass and epoxy makes a much stronger panel. The last boat I had a 21' fin keel spade rudder Brewer designed boat was 35 years old when I got it, it had stood up very well with what appeared to be good quality mahogany ply taped seams and paint. There had been some repairs using D.F. good one side they were noticeably poorer.

My tendency is to avoid the use of large quantities of epoxy if at all possible. The most I would consider "encapsulating"would be the hull itself. My plan at this point is to use BS 6566 meranti ply for the build, with the possible exception of of 4 sheets of BS 1088 occume for the 6mm, if the designer feels it is worth the extra $ 35/sheet.


Also interested in hearing from others in this region who have ordered plans and are building especially about how long one can expect to wait for plans after ordering from SMJ?

Thanks for any insights, Phil Janz. (SeaB)

My assumption then is that some will do stitch glue tape/epoxy paint only?

[SeaB]

Just a note on my location and waters the boat where the boat will be used. I'm on the Minas Basin section of the Bay of Fundy, small village 4 km away with wharf, tidal range at wharf 40+ ft.
I find this gives about 4 hrs.sailing time if working without a motor. In before high tide, travel with tide outbound, make it back before tide gets too strong to maneuver. Or stay out at least a tide cycle. There are nice opportunities for overnighting almost zero traffic on the water.

My last boat was kept at the fisherman's wharf in the vilage of Wallace on Northumberland Strait, about 1 hrs. drive from here. The tidal range there a more workable 8 ft. range. Nice sailing but shallow and choppy as well as tidal currents in the somewhat narrow (for sailing) estuary where the village is located.

Other options within an hour's drive include Halifax harbour and some harbors north of there lying on the Alantic Ocean side deeper water and fine sailing.

We also have a small lake about 15 min. away which is ideal for trials and washing the salt off.

A long time cruise dream remains the Bras d Or lake in Cape Breton about 3 hours away.

[kenjamin]

This is James McMullen's answer from the Finishing lapstrake thread. I don't always agree with James but I do on this:

James says, "If you use okoume or sapele plywood you're not going to ever see a check, even if you use zero epoxy.

You can slather as much epoxy and fiberglass over everything as you want depending on just how much money and weight you want to add to your project. If it's a boat that stays out in the weather in a marina year round, then several hundreds of dollars of epoxy can make an adequate--albeit heavy, viscous, hard to apply smoothly and cleanly, toxic, unpleasant to work with and sand, brittle, heavy--sealer under your paint. If you are building a daysailer that will live on a trailer in your garage or especially if you are building a cartopper then you don't need to use your epoxy for anything other than as the glue.

Unless your design specifically calls for fiberglass for structural reasons, for god's sake don't add any!

Paint and paint primer are designed to spread and flow as well as to seal and protect wood. Other than at the edges of your planks where the squeeze-out from the glueing can be employed to help seal up the end-grain, you really don't need to slather your boat with anything but paint, despite what the epoxy manufacturers would have you believe. I agree with Tom Hill that you shouldn't really paint your boat with glue any more than you should glue your boat with paint. My brother's got a glued lapstrake Ness Yawl I launched in 1996 that's living proof that this strategy works fine given quality mahogany marine plywood to start with.


I have seen people try to rationalize using inferior ply with the intention to make up for it by adding epoxy and fiberglass. That's a strategy that always ends up costing far more than it would have to just use the good stuff in the first place."

[john welsford]

I agree with James about this. I've been building small boats since the late 60's ( oh dear, 45 years or so, that dates a real sign of years flicking past far too rapidly) and have kept a watchful eye on quite a few. Some of those were fully epoxy coated inside and out, some had the inside of lockers and tanks coated, and many were carefully painted ( one or two not so carefully) with oil based enamel paints using the full primer, undercoat and top coat system.
My impression is that those boats that were painted, at least those which I took some care over, are lasting a little better than the epoxy coated ones. The reason? The epoxy coating is brittle, easily fractured and once that happens water creeps in uninvited and the path is all downhill from there. Paint though is a little more flexible and will stand an anchor being put into a locker, or a can of beans being dropped or whatever, and of course its easy to grab a paintbrush and slosh so more over the top every few years, even within a locker.
I do though regard fiberglass cloth in epoxy as a very good protection against the inevitable scratches and scrapes that a trailered boat that might be beached occasionally may incur, it has limitations but being on the outside of the boat its easily seen and easily repaired.
In the case of a SCAMP I'd glass the inside of the offcentercase, and the boats bottom up to the underside of the lowest lap joint in the planking.
I'd paint, very carefully, two coats of primer, two of undercoat and two topcoat, all of the interior, especially those places which will be hard to get at when the "lids" are on all the bouyancy and locker spaces. I'd suggest that all of the paint system be from the same manufacturer, and I'd go so far as to suggest that if you live in an area where this type of paint is no longer available legally, drive over the border and smuggle some back.

On the plywood question, good quality plywood is much easier to work with, if you want your boat to be something that you will be pleased to show off rather than something that is there for use rather than the pleasure of owning something really nice, then its worth the extra to get the best.

John Welsford

This is James McMullen's answer from the Finishing lapstrake thread. I don't always agree with James but I do on this:

James says, "If you use okoume or sapele plywood you're not going to ever see a check, even if you use zero epoxy.

You can slather as much epoxy and fiberglass over everything as you want depending on just how much money and weight you want to add to your project. If it's a boat that stays out in the weather in a marina year round, then several hundreds of dollars of epoxy can make an adequate--albeit heavy, viscous, hard to apply smoothly and cleanly, toxic, unpleasant to work with and sand, brittle, heavy--sealer under your paint. If you are building a daysailer that will live on a trailer in your garage or especially if you are building a cartopper then you don't need to use your epoxy for anything other than as the glue.

Unless your design specifically calls for fiberglass for structural reasons, for god's sake don't add any!

Paint and paint primer are designed to spread and flow as well as to seal and protect wood. Other than at the edges of your planks where the squeeze-out from the glueing can be employed to help seal up the end-grain, you really don't need to slather your boat with anything but paint, despite what the epoxy manufacturers would have you believe. I agree with Tom Hill that you shouldn't really paint your boat with glue any more than you should glue your boat with paint. My brother's got a glued lapstrake Ness Yawl I launched in 1996 that's living proof that this strategy works fine given quality mahogany marine plywood to start with.


I have seen people try to rationalize using inferior ply with the intention to make up for it by adding epoxy and fiberglass. That's a strategy that always ends up costing far more than it would have to just use the good stuff in the first place."

[SeaB]

Thank you for your replies, Kenjamin and Mr. Welsford. Much appreciated. Hope I can get some decent paint somehow. Much planning to be done to make it as quick a build as possible.

[kenjamin]

Not cheap but top quality in great colors:

http://Kirbypaint.com/

[kenjamin]

Really?

SCAMP looks great in that photo, I'll give you that.

But TRAMP... two masts on that water line equals BS design. WTF is going on with that forward transom?

JW has designed some great boats but is a bit antiquated in some respects.

JW, love ya, but get with the program: CAD, CNC (only a diminishing number of amateurs what to dick about with lofting a planing scarfs). You've got such a great eye, you just need to combine it with a more Bolger'ish ruthless-ism, rig nous, and you'd be the man.

Does anybody know what this guy is talking about? What is TRAMP? And why is it being mentioned on the SCAMP thread?