Page 1 of 31 1211 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 50 of 1509

Thread: SCAMP envy/lust

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Des Moines, WA
    Posts
    7

    Default SCAMP envy/lust

    Hello,

    I was wondering if there are others out there experiencing SCAMP 'envy' - I'm nearing the end of a restoration on a fiberglass 22' sailboat (Columbia 22) and I find my eye wandering over to that saucy little SCAMP, suddenly losing interest in my girl as my cheating heart reads everything it can on scamp and scamp building...

    anyone else ?

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,624

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    No fair, you've got to show us a picture of Scamp.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Central New Jersey
    Posts
    760

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    OK - envy I buy. But, When it comes to lust, sheer lines do not come to mind....
    Steamboat

    I get by with the judicious use of serendipity.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    Seattle
    Posts
    20,624

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Des Moines, WA
    Posts
    7

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Yes, that saucy little number. I was totally gone when I watched the Howard Rice capsize test:



    and also

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=du9lv...eature=related

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    South Africa
    Posts
    193

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I like the Scamp too, very stable and functional boat, would not like to race it though. But sure to fill the needs of many a keen small boat sailor.
    Keep on Sailing

    smilicus

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    sailing has a destination, not an estimated time of arrival - Sir R Knox-Johnston

    http://sailingcatch22.blogspot.com

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Sitka, Alaska
    Posts
    38

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I think my short list just became shorter.

    Is one really a list?
    Last edited by OnionEyes; 11-15-2011 at 04:27 AM. Reason: crass comment removed

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2009
    Location
    /dev/null (Delaware)
    Posts
    5,083

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    For me the thing that makes the SCAMP interesting is her effort in the Everglades Challenge with Andyrew and Mike Monies. She got stuck in the mud of Florida bay after missing a channel marker. Quite the adventure for two hardcore builder/operators on the "American raid" (?) scene.

    Mike for completing his first TX200 in a Bolger Cartopper that lost it's mast. He made it the rest of the way with a hastily constructed windcatching device whipped up by the Puddle Duck Racer "team". Said Team included Captain Andyrew in the Salem Electron - sexiest PDR every built IMO.

    Then we had the experiment with Michalak's Laguna Dos - pre-cut - assembled on the beach - and torched in semi-coot style after the event.

    The fact that these two decided to take the SCAMP on that trip impresses me. They know their feces when it comes to taking wee boats on long trips.

    I'm assuming that the O.P. has read all that Andrew and Mike have written about the craft, if not such will likely whet your appetite even more.

    If I wasn't looking for workboat, I'd be all over those plans. Maybe after I gots my fishing/crabbing/clamming outfit together.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    3,102

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by ramonred View Post
    Yes, that saucy little number. I was totally gone when I watched the Howard Rice capsize test:
    Thanks for posting the link ... I had not seen the video before. That's quite impressive ... Howard had to work harder to get the boat on its side than he did to get it back up again.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    25,568

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    If I could only have one boat and it could be no more than eleven feet long Scamp would probably be it. But every extra inch of waterline would improve it so if I had room for a 12, 13, 14 foot boat etc., there is no question I would go for a longer version.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    36,940

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Jim,

    If one wanted to go up to 13', John has a similar boat, called Tread Lightly:

    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...htly/index.htm



    Last edited by David G; 11-15-2011 at 01:21 PM.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    3,102

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    If I could only have one boat and it could be no more than eleven feet long Scamp would probably be it. But every extra inch of waterline would improve it so if I had room for a 12, 13, 14 foot boat etc., there is no question I would go for a longer version.
    Good point, but remember that Scamp is 11'11" ... It's one inch short of 12 feet, presumably because licensing rules in some states change at 12 feet.

    I'd like to see John do a boat similar to Tread Lightly, but stretched to 15' or so. But then, I'm 6-4.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Pohnpei, Micronesia and Michigan, USA
    Posts
    732

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Synopsis of Capsize Observations:
    1. As on my previous windy winter time test cruise I again found Scamp to be predictable, fun, lively to sail and yet stable. It should be remembered that Scamp is only 11’ 11”. I believe she is fast for her length. OK, fast? Small monohulls are not fast, if a sailor wants to go fast probably best to get a motorcycle. Scamp however is a lively, quick little monohull, nimble for sure. She can literally turn around her own length. I like her near 12 foot LOA. As a small boat she is quite easily handled both in the water and out by one person. Her overall seaworthiness including, sailing performance, simplicity of systems, stability and ease of handling is a very unique combination of basic attributes that also make her easy to right from a capsize. In my thinking and personal preference any small boat I sail needs to perform immediately after capsize (sail/row away) in order to get me where I need to be and fast if necessary or just for more sailing fun. I feel this is a critical element many small boat designers or manufacturers miss. In my mind it is paramount to be able to avoid capsize yet if it happens to be able to right within seconds (we did many capsizes and the fastest righting was about 12 seconds, mast head hitting the water to mast head out of the water). Then to be able to get back aboard unassisted and sail away without the need to bail. Many small boats can do this such as Lasers, boats with designed in tank buoyancy or added air bags but few moderate displacement dinghies can do this that I am aware of.

    2. One or two sailors can right scamp without a righting line. She floats high and once righted is able to be sailed out of a capsize situation. The Scamp Righting/Re-Entry stirrup set up will enable most sailors regardless of age and fitness to successfully right and re-enter her. I was able to easily re-enter Scamp without a stirrup, although the stirrup set up is a great guarantee that most any sailor regardless of physical condition can re-enter easily.

    3. We filled her ballast tank because of the conditions and I see no reason to sail her empty in such conditions. The sailor may feel she will go faster being lighter, however in upper end medium air to heavy air she will sail more stiffly and therefore carry sail longer with ballast. I plan to do heavy air un-ballasted sailing sometime, hopefully soon. With one sailor aboard I believe Scamp can carry her full main without ballast up to about 15 knots of air, not bad.

    4. I am convinced based on dockside testing that without water ballast she will still right easily and be able to be re-entered “almost as easily” by stirrup. She has sufficient beam, displacement and buoyancy to offer a platform onto which a sailor can re-enter without trouble even without ballast. We capsize tested her in Phase One without ballast. Scamp still felt stable and easy to manage.

    5. Scamp is designed to resist capsizing as the Utube “Scamp Capsize” video attests. I actually sailed her heeled far over dancing along on her rail before dumping her full over to determine her handling characteristics. Most small boats can capsize so we tested her and video taped so we can better understand her and to help Scamp sailors begin learning how to prepare for and manage a capsize.

    6. Her un-stayed lug rig is well behaved in a capsize situation and very quiet as she rights. The rig freely weathercocks into the wind making for easy righting. The mast offers good initial flotation but can be over powered and driven under through poor capsize technique or failed execution. Be sure not to jump on the mast, boom or sail as she goes over.

    7. Scamp is very difficult to capsize either single or double handed to the point of having to be forced over. We did not capsize her loaded but my ever growing understanding of her tells me she will behave much the same as empty although much better in many regards. She may be even more difficult to capsize with an appropriate and appropriately stored gear load aboard.

    8. Scamp can be easily be righted on either board. The actions needed to right her if on port (centerboard low to the water) are just slightly different than starboard (centerboard high up as depicted in the video). On port a righting line would be an advantage as there is not much to hold on to as the centerboard is pushed down by hand and then foot.

    9. I did not capsize her with rig down and at oars or engine but am quite certain righting and re-entry would be successful. Nothing about her handling under way, on her side or turtled would lead me to question this capability.

    10. We turtled her and two sailors with no righting line or deployed centerboard can right her, however this is "not recommended." One sailor can right her from turtle using the centerboard and/or the stirrup/righting line set up. I use and believe in this set up. Many small boat sailors could benefit from such a system and should consider rigging up a righting/stirrup system on their boats.

    11. Scamp can also be righted using only her mainsheet as the righting line as proven during dockside testing. This is a standard operating practice used by many sailing dinghy sailors. This method needs to be thought through carefully. The main sheet should be tied off to a cleat and not pulled directly from the boom. Once capsized getting this set up takes time and effort while you are treading water. Again it is suggested that the dedicated Scamp specific righting, re-entry set up be installed and utilized.

    12. If the centerboard is to be relied on in a turtle situation then a quick release retention line, shock cord hold down or other element will have to be installed. We are analyzing options for this now.

    13. A high side (over the top to the centerboard) righting is an iffy proposition on Scamp unless one thinks through hand holds and foot plants enabling the sailor to very quickly get up and go over the top. The way to accidently turtle Scamp is to hold on to her in a failed high side attempt. Since Scamp is so hard to capsize a “High Side” may be a moot point if the sailor has to try to capsize her and scramble over her rail onto the centerboard. I demonstrated the high side righting maneuver during the dockside testing and will continue to explore it as an option for open water windy conditions. For now I do not recommend this method unless first mastered it in calm water testing .

    14. It is important when capsizing Scamp that the sailor(s) immediately disengage from the boat and simply lower themselves into the water. As mentioned above do not drop onto the mast, boom or sail as it can drive any dinghy to turtle and Scamp is no exception. As stated the high side (dry) capsize recovery may not be wise due to the difficulty of capsizing her in the first place. The slippery dramatically curved sheer makes for a challenge when trying to get over the high side to the centerboard. Forced capsizing puts the sailor on the low side making an easy hull straddle difficult. Scamp has more than adequate buoyancy to float high on her side if the sailor does not hang onto or stand in the boat.

    15. A small groove could be routed into the sides of the skegs aft enabling better finger holds for the sailor to grasp as they attempt to right or hang on to the boat.

    16. Scamp was purposely righted on several different points of sail and due to her inherent stability, weight and weather-cocking rig she rights nicely regardless of attitude to the wind and waves. This is a remarkable benefit to the Scamp sailor as swimming the bow of any small boat to weather can be very taxing burning precious seconds or even minutes. Using the swim her bow weather tactic and the proceeding success of righting and re-entry is predicated on the fact that the bow remains to weather. When it is blowing this is not always an easy attitude to maintain while you are simultaneously trying to right and re-enter. I could see the need to swim her bow to weather if it is blowing really hard and the boat may be blown over to turtle because on her side she presents a large hull surface target to the wind.

    17. When sailing double handed the Scoop Re-Entry method is preferred and very possible if both sailors have discussed the method beforehand. Several double handed scoop re-entries were tested successfully. Be sure to work out capsize specific visual and verbal signals to enable effective communication.

    18. It is possible to re-enter without a stirrup but this calls for a particular “timing is everything” swim technique move. I demonstrated this in the dockside video and repeated it in open water testing. The Scamp Righting Line Stirrup set up is recommended for Scamp sailors.

    19. When righted Scamp may have between an inch and two inches of water on her cockpit sole. The sumps and venturi bailers will empty the cockpit shortly after you begin making way.

    20. I am confident to recommend Scamp to novice sailors as a first boat and to recommend her to experienced sailors who are looking for a solid micro mini cruiser or simply a safe, stable and very fun day sailor.

    21. In closing I found Scamp a very good sailing boat, a difficult boat to capsize and a simple boat to right and re-enter. I knew she would be an easy boat to self-rescue but I was more than pleasantly surprised that she performed so well. She is by far one of the easiest sailing dinghies I have righted yet one of the most difficult to capsize. I am very pleased to see the Small Craft Advisor magazine folks going to the lengths they have to ensure Scamp is proven safe for a wide array of sailors. I find Scamp to be an excellent choice in the day sailor and micro cruiser genre. She is simple to build, simple to handle, fun to sail and very safe.

    howard rice
    www.smallcraftacademy.com
    Last edited by Howard Rice; 11-21-2011 at 12:19 PM.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Pohnpei, Micronesia and Michigan, USA
    Posts
    732

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Hello All.
    A quick note of apology for hijacking this "Scamp envy/lust thread and turning it into a "Scamp Capsize" thread. I received two emails from friends saying the Scamp Capsize tube video had been posted here and since that would be me in the boat in the video I thought the report I penned for the Small Craft Advisor web site forum last April might be of some value or interest to folks reading about Scamp.
    Thanks for reading it (if you managed to slog through the lengthy report;-), yawn.....brevity might have been the better part of valor now that I look at the full report.
    Best to All,
    howard

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    36,940

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Howard,

    May be just me, but I enjoyed the Full Meal Deal. Thanks for the breakdown!
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,584

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    So just build one! One of the joys of a little boat like this is that it doesn't require much in the way of planning, investment or commitment. And the rewards will be all out of scale compared to the effort involved. Unless you're desperately strapped for cash, there's no reason I can see not to own a little boat like Scamp in addition to whatever other boats or hobbies you got going on. And it may well turn out that Scamp is funner than the rest of 'em anyways.

  17. #17
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    25,568

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    Jim,

    If one wanted to go up to 13', John has a similar boat, called Tread Lightly:

    http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/plans...htly/index.htm



    Yes, I like Tread Lightly alot, too. But my personal sailing future is in various multihulls currently in various states of construction

  18. #18
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    465

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    That safety aspect is really compelling, especially for cold, rough, busy waters. Back on her feet and going, without bailing, singlehanded, in 55 seconds. My Shellback will carry me only so far, and I was thinking that the Next Boat would be big and open, like a Caledonia. Not likely to capsize or swamp - but if it does, oh boy do I have a job on my hands, especially if I'm in a shipping lane. That video has me re-thinking my strategy.
    Last edited by sailoar; 11-16-2011 at 01:57 PM.

  19. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    25,568

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I paraphrase, but JW once said he doesn't like drowning his customers. Probably said it more than once.

  20. #20
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    465

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Jim, how do you think your Minuet would do in that scenario? Have you tried it? I've considered that boat, as well as other sub-800-lb. pocket cruisers like the Hartley 14, Pocketship, etc. I wonder if they would right as quickly as SCAMP. One of the reasons I'm looking at boats with cabins is the extra righting moment they give to recover from capsize or turtle. Can you imagine a turtled Caledonia, with a tanker bearing down? Flare gun time.
    Last edited by sailoar; 11-16-2011 at 02:42 PM.

  21. #21
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,584

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Sailoar, if you capsize in front of a tanker, a flare gun ain't gonna help much either. Ships that size can't stop or hardly even turn to dodge you for all intents and purposes. Your only real option is for you to avoid being in front of one at the wrong time.

    A Caledonia Yawl is a vastly bigger boat than a Scamp I think they're barely comparable. Both boats are singlehandable, but the CY can handle five or six guests with ease. There's only one recorded instance of a CY ever capsizing, and that was the result of tripping over an improperly set anchor rode in shallow water with opposing winds and currents. . . . . .
    You can build a CY with integral flotation chambers though. That's what I would have rather than a completely open boat myself.

  22. #22
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    36,940

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Sailoar, if you capsize in front of a tanker, a flare gun ain't gonna help much either. Ships that size can't stop or hardly even turn to dodge you for all intents and purposes. Your only real option is for you to avoid being in front of one at the wrong time.

    A Caledonia Yawl is a vastly bigger boat than a Scamp I think they're barely comparable. Both boats are singlehandable, but the CY can handle five or six guests with ease. There's only one recorded instance of a CY ever capsizing, and that was the result of tripping over an improperly set anchor rode in shallow water with opposing winds and currents. . . . . .
    You can build a CY with integral flotation chambers though. That's what I would have rather than a completely open boat myself.
    One can ALWAYS compare, eh? The CY will also, I'd imagine, row more sweetly and sail more briskly than a SCAMP. Though they're both a bit beamy for lengthy stretches of rowing. They're both on my list for consideration as 'Next Boat'... though, as my design brief gets firmed up, they're different enough that one will get dropped much quicker than the other.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  23. #23

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    The question that comes to my mind when I think of the 12 foot SCAMP is how it might compare to the 12 foot Oldshoe. Above water, the SCAMP seems to have a smaller cockpit, and a larger storage cuddy than Oldshoe. Also, above water, SCAMP is much more pretty.

    The balanced lug sailrig on SCAMP is well loved. Ditto for the cat yawl rig of Oldshoe.

    Below water, both of these boats have essentially bent flat plate bottoms. With SCAMP using a pivoting fin for lateral plane, and Oldshoe using a long latent fin keel (with lead ballast).

    Here is an isometric study I did comparing the underwater shapes of these two similar sized boats...


  24. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    25,568

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    The question that comes to my mind when I think of the 12 foot SCAMP is how it might compare to the 12 foot Oldshoe...
    Aside from very superficial similarities I'd guess they are two very different boats.

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Apr 1999
    Location
    Hyannis, MA, USA
    Posts
    40,541

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Thank you Howard.

  26. #26

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    Aside from very superficial similarities I'd guess they are two very different boats.
    I dunno. Hydrodynamically, they look pretty similar. (The topsides, cosmetically, are very different I agree.) Comparing their buoyancy curves it looks to me to be very similar. Except perhaps that the buoyancy curve of Oldshoe seems to be spread out a bit longer over her waterline length which hints to me that Oldshoe might be just a tiny bit faster.


  27. #27
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Duncan, Vancouver Island
    Posts
    25,568

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Hey Bruce, maybe we'll see what Mr W has to say

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Pohnpei, Micronesia and Michigan, USA
    Posts
    732

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by Ian McColgin View Post
    Thank you Howard.
    Your welcome Ian.
    I hope my lengthy (mis-paste of the) document might help even one person here begin to think through "what if" scenarios regardless of the type of boat they sail. I really have no axe to grind on behalf of the Scamp design or the fine bunch Small Craft Advisor magazine folks, I was just the test pilot. The point is I was impressed with the design. Any time I step aboard a small boat my mind jest ahead to "what if........" and Scamp answered nicely given a number of "what ifs", nice boat.

    Lots of people (new sailors) are beginning to venture forth in small boats. Perhaps we are at the cusp of a small boat renaissance pushed by hard economic times. With this in mind thoughtfulness in design concept that sets safety high on the performance list is fitting.
    howard

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,584

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    I dunno. Hydrodynamically, they look pretty similar. . . . the buoyancy curve of Oldshoe seems to be spread out a bit longer over her waterline length which hints to me that Oldshoe might be just a tiny bit faster.
    Did you also look at wetted surface area, Bruce? Seems to me that the long, slab-sided salient fixed keel of Oldshoe is not only at a disadvantage in effective lateral plane area compared to the higher aspect shaped foils of Scamp, but also quite a bit more wetted surface when rowing, and it's surface area that you can't ever retract or stow. I would lay any money that Oldshoe is neither as fast nor as weatherly as a Scamp in any conditions, ever. I would bet that Oldshoe is comfortable, docile and well-mannered, but a ballasted, full-keel, twelve-footer is the exact opposite of sprightly. I do like the cat-yawl rig on Oldshoe better. If I were to build a Scamp for myself I would write to John and figure out a way to add a jigger.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Oakland, CA
    Posts
    465

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    There's an excellent discussion of flotation and self-rescue in small open-ish boats over in the Caledonia Yawl forum:

    http://boats.duncan.com/cyforum/view...forum%E2%80%A6

    I'm impressed with the SCAMP video, but it could be that any number of small boats would do as well, given proper side and end tanks, ballast, centerboard downhaul, etc.

  31. #31
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    36,940

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Did you also look at wetted surface area, Bruce? Seems to me that the long, slab-sided salient fixed keel of Oldshoe is not only at a disadvantage in effective lateral plane area compared to the higher aspect shaped foils of Scamp, but also quite a bit more wetted surface when rowing, and it's surface area that you can't ever retract or stow. I would lay any money that Oldshoe is neither as fast nor as weatherly as a Scamp in any conditions, ever. I would bet that Oldshoe is comfortable, docile and well-mannered, but a ballasted, full-keel, twelve-footer is the exact opposite of sprightly. I do like the cat-yawl rig on Oldshoe better. If I were to build a Scamp for myself I would write to John and figure out a way to add a jigger.
    Those discussions are underway, and it sounds like it'll be an optional rig.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  32. #32
    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Posts
    3,102

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Did you also look at wetted surface area, Bruce?
    Not to mention that the bare hull of Old Shoe weighs what? 450 pounds, including 200 pounds of lead? That's weight that can't ever be "dumped."

  33. #33

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    Did you also look at wetted surface area, Bruce?
    Yes, Oldshoe has more wetted surface area, and because of that would likely be slower with low wind. Still, both of these are 12 foot long displacement hulls! In high wind, they both could easily get pushed up to hull speed limit, and my hunch is that the Oldshoe would be a tiny bit faster because it has a slightly more elongated buoyancy curve. I agree with your preference for Cat Yawl rigs. I know of others that like balanced lugs too.

    I think it is silly to talk of best performance in a 12 foot displacement sailboat, measured in speed or ability to point to windward. (Anyway you slice it, these are slow boats, limited by their length.)

    Performance in a boat like this should either be measured in 'good looks', or in 'comfort'. I think SCAMP wins in 'good looks', based on its pretty topside lines and detailing. But those looks come at the cost of a shrunken cockpit. And, Oldshoe wins in comfort based on its much larger sprawling cockpit.

    The water ballast also shrinks the interior usable volume of SCAMP, and that significant hunk of lead hung down low on Oldshoe should make her sail more upright (and increased usable volume for your feet), both a plus for comfort.

    The ballasted long slab sided keel in a short boat makes it feel more like a bigger boat due to mass and inertia. I recall reading from someone describing sailing in an Oldshoe that it felt like a cockpit of a 30 foot boat, but without the cabin.
    Last edited by brucehallman; 11-17-2011 at 10:10 AM.

  34. #34
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,584

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    What about beaching and trailering? Fixed, heavy keel has some inescapable issues there too.

    And as far as general speed goes, sure, each of these boats is going to top out at around the same displacement hull speed. But the slippery hull with less frictional drag is going to accelerate faster in gusts and do better every time the wind is not strong enough to push them to top out. . .which is an awful lot of the time in typical recreational sailing weather. A boat with the SA/D ratio of Oldshoe isn't going to get up to it's max hull speed anytime quickly, Bruce.

    I just think these are extremely different boats, outward measurements to the contrary. The Oldshoe is certainly a sedate, easy, manageable boat to sail, but for you to think it could be actually faster than a Scamp in any meaningful way seems to be a delusion generated by your uncritical Bolger-worship. Oldshoe should be appreciated for what it actually is.

  35. #35
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Eagan, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    11,144

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I would think that Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser would be a better fit to the comparison than Oldshoe. Has anyone ever built one? Is she only a cartoon?
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

    Grieving love unsaid. | Tomorrow will fail someday. | Tell them today, OK?

  36. #36

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by James McMullen View Post
    ...speed...faster...speed
    If you want speed, neither SCAMP nor Oldshoe should be your choice in a 12 foot sailboat. Choose some unballasted boat that can get up on plane. Most of those tend to measure 16+ feet though.

    Now, with the given that these are short displacement boats, define 'performance'. Neither would satisfy you if speed is what you want. More meaningful as measures of 'performance' are looks, and comfort.

    SCAMP has 145 pounds of ballast and Oldshoe has 200 pounds. If acceleration is your concern, bear in mind that the mass of the crew and gear matters more than the mass of the boat, and Oldshoe can sail with 6 people aboard! (In a 12 foot boat, wow.) Definitely less acceleration than SCAMP which looks to hold 4 people max.

    Yes, you are right to consider beaching. The Oldshoe draws 16 inches of water, max at the stern, less in the bow. Knee deep. If there is a moderate slope to the beach, you can nose in. SCAMP draws only 7 inches of water, but with the larger cuddy forward, climbing in and out over the bow would be harder. Wet feet are likely with both boats.

  37. #37

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by htom View Post
    I would think that Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser would be a better fit to the comparison than Oldshoe. Has anyone ever built one? Is she only a cartoon?
    I have never heard of one built, but I bet that it has been built because of being published in the book. It is a gorgeous boat, though 13 feet 6 inches long. (Cat yawl rig too.) Not necessarily comparable to these 12 footers.


  38. #38
    Join Date
    Dec 1999
    Location
    Eagan, Minnesota, USA
    Posts
    11,144

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    My mistake. I thought the JBC was another 12' pram.
    Await dreams, loves, life; | There is always tomorrow. | Until there is not.

    Grieving love unsaid. | Tomorrow will fail someday. | Tell them today, OK?

  39. #39
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    171

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    There is a picture around somewhere of a SCAMP sailing with three adults and two kids on board, and they werent cramped at all. Several people have commented that the boat is unusually roomy and comfortable, "feels like a much bigger boat" has been a common observation.
    Welsford puts a lot of time and effort into the proportions of seating and legspace, even to the extent of working out the perfect backrest angle for various seat heights and SCAMP seems to have benefited from this attention to detail.

    Damn, I wish I was a bit more mobile, that little boat would suit me fine.
    incidentally there is a rumour around that at Sail Oklahoma the Scamp proved to be one of the faster boats on a long beat to windward, that may have been the designer playing crafty with the windshifts but it does indicate that for a short fat boat with the simplest possible rig its a lot quicker than you'd expect.

    Cedric

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    The question that comes to my mind when I think of the 12 foot SCAMP is how it might compare to the 12 foot Oldshoe. Above water, the SCAMP seems to have a smaller cockpit, and a larger storage cuddy than Oldshoe. Also, above water, SCAMP is much more pretty.

    The balanced lug sailrig on SCAMP is well loved. Ditto for the cat yawl rig of Oldshoe.

    Below water, both of these boats have essentially bent flat plate bottoms. With SCAMP using a pivoting fin for lateral plane, and Oldshoe using a long latent fin keel (with lead ballast).

    Here is an isometric study I did comparing the underwater shapes of these two similar sized boats...


  40. #40
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    As with all designers, there are the occasional customer whom, in the midst of a stressful discussion, you'd like to disappear or to attempt to catalogue all of the vein patterns in the leaves of the Quercus Albus , but yes, I dont like drowning customers, have not yet, and hope that it never happens.
    SCAMP is a real attempt to make a boat less likely to do that than some.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by JimD View Post
    I paraphrase, but JW once said he doesn't like drowning his customers. Probably said it more than once.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  41. #41
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,584

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    The Scamp design was commissioned by Small Craft Advisor from the very outset with camp-cruising in the Pacific Northwest in mind. I think she is admirably well suited to that purpose if a minimalist micro-boat is what you're restricted to. The Oldshoe was designed more for casual, low-stress daysailing I think. Neither one is really my cup of tea, but they both seem like useful boats within the limitations of their own particular sets of compromises. Going longer would make both of them better at almost everything except for the cost and the weight and the storage space requirements. . .but then you'd no longer have a 12' boat.

    Speed is useful for cruising boats too, you know. Especially when you sail in an area with very strong tidal currents to contend with like I do. The best speed commeasurate with safety, comfort and handling should be the goal of any cruising design. And it's never not more fun to sail a boat that is faster than those of your neighbors.
    Last edited by James McMullen; 11-17-2011 at 03:14 PM.

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Hamilton New Zealand
    Posts
    3,306

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    A couple of comments, I prefer not to comment on the work of other designers, I treat them as I'd like them to treat me.
    But I can talk about what my intentions were with SCAMP and how well or otherwise she's achieved those goals.
    Space, Howard, my ( non boating enthusiast) wife Denny and I were out in SCAMP at Port Townsend, there was room for a couple more adults if they'd wanted to come with us, the boat is so stable that having one or two on the lee side is not a problem.
    Stability, I was standing on the dock talking to a young couple who were about to go out with Howard for a sail. The young lady, who I think had not been sailing before, asked "Is it tippy?" I stepped off the float and stood on the gunwale of the little boat, it heeled maybe 15 deg with my 85kg standing on the rail. Under sail it carries what is a reasonably generous sail area for a 12 footer very well, and at Port Townsend in really light conditions was quick enough to sail away from most of the other small boats.
    Performance wise, I'd hoped to produce a boat that would be "spritely" , interesting to sail, not a "Dog". And the boats performance at Sail OK (what are you doing out of bed at this hour Cedric? And who've you been talking to? )with Tom Pamperin and I on board the "Famous Red SCAMP" built by Mike Monies was a bit of an eye opener. We were among mostly much longer boats and it was not a race situation, but after being last away off the beach we were able to pick up more than half the fleet on the 5 mile windward beat back to "home".
    I wanted maneuverable for those who want to short tack up a narrow channel, and thats why the high aspect ratio "offcenterboard" ( plus it fits in the seat front, totally unobtrusive) and big rudder, she will turn in her own length at hull speed, not losing a lot of momentum.
    What would I do different if starting again? Maybe a couple of details, Mike Monies has built a nice way of stepping the mast that makes it easier for someone not wanting to lift the 12 lb mast vertically, and I'd put a well and hand bilge pump at the after end of the cockpit floor. There is always the case that for most boats couple of feet more length would be an improvement, but then, for that 14 footer, the same could be said again.
    I like SCAMP, so does my wife and she's asked me to build one for her. Now THATS a turnaround, but I"ll build her a Kiwi PDR first so she can learn to sail before committing to the bigger boat.
    While SCAMP is a development of several previous designs, I'd not have done this one if it hadnt been for an interesting brief from Small Craft Advisor Magazine. For those who have not picked up on this, the name is [S]mall [C]raft [A]dvisor [M]agazine [P]roject
    Thanks Josh Colvin ( Editor of that mag)
    John Welsford
    Last edited by john welsford; 11-17-2011 at 03:20 PM.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

  43. #43
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Queenstown, NewZealand
    Posts
    300

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    A question for John W, Howard Rice (and others):

    It we define a "small boat" as having a dry weight of no more than the likely two man crew that could sail it, we can go short and fat, or long and skinny or somewhere in between.

    At one extreme we could have the 11 foot Scamp, at the other we could have Gary Dierking's 24 foot Waapa. In between we could have any one of a number of more or less open 16 foot by 5-6 foot wide sail and oar boats (take your pick of anything that fits into my "small boat" definition above). All about the same dry weight, same amount of ply and presumably time/money to build.

    Say you had a passage or a coastal trip to make, say Oahu - Maui or Bella Bella to Port Hardy in BC, or at an extreme following Frank Dye on one of his trips, and each of these boats was lined up on the beach ready to go, which would you take?

    Ian

  44. #44
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Lenox, MA/Vineyard Haven, MA
    Posts
    682

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by htom View Post
    I would think that Bolger's Japanese Beach Cruiser would be a better fit to the comparison than Oldshoe. Has anyone ever built one? Is she only a cartoon?
    JPC is a full design. That's a pretty similar boat to Scamp. I wish somebody (other than me) would build one--I have a feeling it would be extremely appealing. Always been curious about it. Then again, it's so much like a scamp . . .

  45. #45
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    St. Augustine, FL
    Posts
    3,331

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    What I like about the Scamp is its combination of small manageable scale for one person to handle and its built-in escape-from-the-sun cuddy. Here in Florida the strength of the summer sun can be oppressive and some place to take a nap in the shade would be great especially on a boat light enough to be rowed effectively if necessary. I'm sure it's no big pleasure to row but neither is my Caledonia Yawl, but like my CY, it's nice to have the rowing option if you want to leave the motor at home or you take the motor with you, the wind stops, and the darn motor fails somehow. The small scale of a small boat can be an advantage if you find yourself somehow marooned in a vast field of mud, for instance, or a low tide has left the boat high and dry on the beach maybe. These things happen so it's nice to have a boat light enough to drag around a bit if necessary.

    As for the Bolger Beach Cruiser, I wrote a long letter to Bolger and Freinds years ago asking to experiment with using one of my birdwing masts on the Beach Cruiser. I thought that since I'd never heard of a Beach Cruiser actually being built that they would be happy to see one built even if the owner/builder wanted to experiment with the rig. Boy, was I wrong. They said it would be too much me and not enough them. Apparently all three of us had healthy egos. I still like the Bolger Beach cruiser and many of Bolger's other designs but I probably will never build a Bolger boat. Iain Oughtred welcomed my experimentation and told me to "have fun!" I will always be grateful to him for that.
    Last edited by kenjamin; 11-17-2011 at 07:48 PM.

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Ohio, near Muskingum watershed lakes.
    Posts
    2

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I tried to buy plans for the Japanese Beach Cruiser. I wrote to PB&F for a price and nothing happened. That was probably in April or May, so I guess it's not going to happen. I love that boat. Now I don't know what to do. If someone would sell me their plans, I would build it. I suppose I could just build it from Phil Bolger's BOATS WITH AN OPEN MIND. What I don't want is an argument or even harsh words from Susanne Altenburger. There was a short while when I did want a Scamp. When I bought my first boat, I did what I thought was serious research and then ordered a new West Wight Potter #396. I didn't like it after a friend went forward and tipped us over in the middle of the lake. We had to be towed to shore. Phil Bolger said that the JBC can be sailed full of water and has lifeboat capability. I still want one. I will be 70 in three months and don't want to wait any more. Help or suggestions, please.

  47. #47
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Singapore
    Posts
    11,584

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    Quote Originally Posted by gpawdave View Post
    What I don't want is an argument or even harsh words from Susanne Altenburger.
    Only way I know how you can be certain of that is to limit your interaction with her. She ferociously responds to any perceived disagreement with amazing vigor. She is very strong in her opinions of what is correct and what is not, and you offer your own personal criteria or opinions at your own peril.


    I still want one. (a JBC) I will be 70 in three months and don't want to wait any more. Help or suggestions, please.
    Build a Scamp instead, I say. That's certainly a more proven boat by now, and it's got at least as good a "lifeboat capability" in addition to being faster, more weatherly and much better looking. I think you might even be able to get a Scamp kit pretty soon.

  48. #48
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Portland, Oregon
    Posts
    36,940

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    James,

    If I'm not mistaken, SCAMP kits are currently available starting at about $2,000. Plans are also available. If someone wants a complete boat (or just a complete hull), there's a couple of us who are happy to oblige. I have to agree with your logic. I too am intrigued by the JBC, but would choose a SCAMP because it's been proven to be even more boat than anyone (except maybe the designer?) expected.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

    "It was a Sunday morning and Goddard gave thanks that there were still places where one could worship in temples not made by human hands." -- L. F. Herreshoff (The Compleat Cruiser)

  49. #49
    Join Date
    Feb 2002
    Location
    Uki, NSW, Australia
    Posts
    21,975

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I would build a Scamp if I wasn't already building a boat....give me a few more years and I just might anyway.
    My take is that if you poke someone with a sharp stick they'll get annoyed, if you smile and shake their hand they will be your friends.

    John Welsford

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    171

    Default Re: SCAMP envy/lust

    I understand that one of the important parts of the design brief was that the SCAMP had to dry out level enough to sleep on if put up on a beach or mudflats on an outgoing tide for the night, plus of course a dry and secure "bed" that did not need filler boards or whatever to make a flat space. There are pics around of the boats interior that show the "cockpit" has more than enough space for that, I"ve read that Howard ( thanks for posting the "test" results Howard , much appreciated) even sat up under the cabin overhang, ground coffee beans and made fresh coffee when anchored out in pretty awful weather.
    There are not many 12 ft boats that offer that level of amenities.

    Cedric

    Quote Originally Posted by brucehallman View Post
    If you want speed, neither SCAMP nor Oldshoe should be your choice in a 12 foot sailboat. Choose some unballasted boat that can get up on plane. Most of those tend to measure 16+ feet though.

    Now, with the given that these are short displacement boats, define 'performance'. Neither would satisfy you if speed is what you want. More meaningful as measures of 'performance' are looks, and comfort.

    SCAMP has 145 pounds of ballast and Oldshoe has 200 pounds. If acceleration is your concern, bear in mind that the mass of the crew and gear matters more than the mass of the boat, and Oldshoe can sail with 6 people aboard! (In a 12 foot boat, wow.) Definitely less acceleration than SCAMP which looks to hold 4 people max.

    Yes, you are right to consider beaching. The Oldshoe draws 16 inches of water, max at the stern, less in the bow. Knee deep. If there is a moderate slope to the beach, you can nose in. SCAMP draws only 7 inches of water, but with the larger cuddy forward, climbing in and out over the bow would be harder. Wet feet are likely with both boats.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •