Hull paint

[Reynard38]

It's always nice when you can start thinking about ordering paint for the hull. On my Whitehall I used Interlux Brightsides Hatteras white. I liked the paints durability, but it didn't cover all that well.
For the Coquina I'm planning on a dark green (always wanted a dark green hulled sailboat).
I used Kirby's on the interior and thought it covered very well and flowed out nicely. I had some concerns about using it on the exterior as I'm not sure it'll be as durable as the Brightsides.
The Kirby's does seem to touch up very well.
Opinions?

[wizbang 13]

Are you planning on being rough on the boat?

On one hand, the Kirby's is softer, covers easier, and touches up easier. But a fine mini yacht does not really take licks. And smells better.

Brightsides can be polished and buffed out like a showcar, resists scratching better. When sanded, dusts up better, will gum up paper less than alkyd.
A trick to getting dark green to cover would be a dark undercoat.
Also, Britesides likes about 5 thin coats,even with a matching undercoat.
Flip a coin!

[Ian McColgin]

I used Kirby's years back on Goblin - mixed my own greenish off-black from 3 parts flat black and one part their darkest gloss green. It did not fade and thus repairing little scars and outrages was practical at least 4 seasons after the paint went on. On Marmalade I use Kirby's semi-gloss white which is infinatly repairable since it has no where to fade to and does not seem to yellow with age.

[Lew Barrett]

Brightsides looks good and flows well, but you pay for it's translucent nature with the lesser coverage. If you like what it does and how it flows, Easypoxy works about as well but covers considerably better. The differences in look between the two polyurethanes is minimal in respect to how they wear and how you put them on, and they both buff out well in respect to minor repairs. If you can find an EP color you like, it will cover better but not be quite as deep when you are done. I've never needed more than two coats with it.

I'm sure Kirby is fine, but it just doesn't seem to be used as much here in the west.

[Ian McColgin]

Lew, that's because you guys have Marshall's Cove. Check them out.

[stromborg]

I used Marshall's Cove inside and out on my skiff. After a summer of sailing 2+ times a week the interior still looks great despite having a fair amount of dirt dragged aboard. Coverage was about what I would have expected and it flows nicely.

Steve

[Lew Barrett]

Lew, that's because you guys have Marshall's Cove. Check them out.

Will do, Ian!

[Nicholas Carey]

Brightsides looks good and flows well, but you pay for it's translucent nature with the lesser coverage. If you like what it does and how it flows, Easypoxy works about as well but covers considerably better. The differences in look between the two polyurethanes is minimal in respect to how they wear and how you put them on, and they both buff out well in respect to minor repairs. If you can find an EP color you like, it will cover better but not be quite as deep when you are done. I've never needed more than two coats with it.

I'm sure Kirby is fine, but it just doesn't seem to be used as much here in the west.

There's also the System Three Water-Reducable LPU: http://www.systemthree.com/store/pc/...opcoat-c29.htm

You can use it as a one-part conventional paint, or add the cross-linking agent for a tougher film with better gloss retention. Supposed to be pretty good stuff.

[earling2]

I'm surprised to hear people hear talking about using Brightsides as a paint for a wooden boat. New, plywood, and glassed--yeah I can see that. But it's really hard, and obviously doesn't move at all. It also so thin and brilliant it highlights imperfections. Most wooden boats I've known would have looked pretty shabby with that intense gloss. Kirby's by comparison is very soft, even for enamel (compared to Interlux enamel, say, which might not even be available anymore). I think the real selling point about Kirby's would be the colors--way better than any other company. It's also simple, unpretentious, old fashioned paint--easy to use, versatile, holds a wet edge a pretty long time so you don't have to bust a gut getting the paint on. I thinned it heavily with Naptha and cut the gloss with talcum (accidentally bought gloss) and sprayed my Swampscott and it took all that without any complaints, plenty of pigment. Seems like it's going to hold up pretty well. And it's nice to know you can get another quart right from Kirby's, not expensive. Obviously I'm a fan.
I think Brightsides is great for rehabbing medium-to-low-end glass boats more cheaply than a full-on Awlgrip job

[Ian McColgin]

Speaking as a fan of both exterior latex and of Kirby's - yeah, I do the "fifty foot paint job." Looks good from fifty feet away - just remember that Kirby's is a lead paint. If you're sanding or whatever, take proper care or you'll be mumbling like an auto body guy before your time.

[Lew Barrett]

I'm surprised to hear people hear talking about using Brightsides as a paint for a wooden boat. New, plywood, and glassed--yeah I can see that. But it's really hard, and obviously doesn't move at all. It also so thin and brilliant it highlights......

Everything you say is pretty much the case. You need a good boat to put on any LPU and not have it come out badly. Lots of longboard time and confidence in the structure is what it takes. Brightsides or EasyP have their pluses and minuses, but compared to Awlgrip or Stirling it is far more forgiving. Chalking and a dull finish from the outset or a high gloss look but with more potential for some cracking out over time; take your pick.

There are other choices in paints including European high end enamels that achieve a blend of both qualities as well. The market is changing.

[Reynard38]

As the Coquina is glued lap I've got options here. I tend to be pretty picky on my finishes. I've had a number of people ask about my Whitehall "is that fiberglass?"
It sounds like the field is a lot bigger than jus Kirby's and Brightsides. I don't mind spending the time to get a really nice finish, and on this boat I'm going for the gloss.

[Dale Genther]

I agree with Lew about Easypoxy. It has similiar properties to Brightside, but covers much better. I used to use Brightside but stopped about 10 years ago. We now use Eaxypoxy black on Radiance. The previous owner of our new boat Slackwater painted the hull with Easypoxy off white, which I'm going to continue with.

Radiance, S&S Gulfstream Sloop

Slackwater, Cheaspeake Bay Deadrise, built in Deltaville, VA by Alvin Sibley

[Reynard38]

I agree with Lew about Easypoxy. It has similiar properties to Brightside, but covers much better. I used to use Brightside but stopped about 10 years ago. We now use Eaxypoxy black on Radiance. The previous owner of our new boat Slackwater painted the hull with Easypoxy off white, which I'm going to continue with.

Radiance, S&S Gulfstream Sloop

Slackwater, Cheaspeake Bay Deadrise, built in Deltaville, VA by Alvin Sibley

Beautiful boats both. What is the color of the bottom paint on the sailboat? Even though I won't need the protection of bottom paint on the Coquina I think I might paint the bottom a traditional color.

[wizbang 13]

Reynard, If You seek gloss, take a look at 2 part brushable LP.
Like Perfection. Epifane has a brushable lp and Awlgrip has brushing thinners.
In different parts of the world, I have used em all . In my case it is not for max gloss, but for long lasting toughness.
Good ply can take it.
It is more money but only a bit more work.

[David G]

Reynard, If You seek gloss, take a look at 2 part brushable LP.
Like Perfection. Epifane has a brushable lp and Awlgrip has brushing thinners.
In different parts of the world, I have used em all . In my case it is not for max gloss, but for long lasting toughness.
Good ply can take it.
It is more money but only a bit more work.

All true. The tradeoff is that these types are not at all easy to touch up seamlessly. OTOH, they're substantially less likely to need touchup.

[Dale Genther]

Reynard, The bottom paint on both boats is West Marine CPP Ablative antifouling paint, Red color

[Reynard38]

Thanks. Like everything else, trade offs....
I love working with the Kirby's, but I'd like to see a dark gloss Kirby's finish.
I don't see this boat getting rough usage, or pulled up on rocks (over my dead body!)
I might buy a quart of dark green Kirby's and use it on the rudder to see how I like it.

[earling2]

I've had a number of people ask about my Whitehall "is that fiberglass?"

That's a compliment?

Yes, there are a hell of a lot of paint out there, but Brightides and Kirby's for the sake of discussion are sort of the place-holders for the two main divisions; LPU (hard bright and shiny) and oil based (softer, more forgiving, much easier to use, cheaper, less glossy, does not look like gelcoat, good for real wood)

[pipefitter]

Another option, not so much for trad wood boats, but those composite constructs that are built to emulate a traditional boat, is to use the glossy finishes for the color coats and top off with the same paint, but with a deglosser added to the final coat. It still has a rich patina and the color retention of the gloss, without as much of the shine. The bright paints make for a really rich and warm looking satin IMO.

[Jamie Orr]

All true. The tradeoff is that these types are not at all easy to touch up seamlessly. OTOH, they're substantially less likely to need touchup.

Exactly right. I brushed Endura two part LPU onto glass over ply about 12 years ago, first and only time I've used it. It was fussy to use and toxic as hell but has more than paid for the extra time and trouble. The paint is still like new except for reminders of various events, such as nudging a barnacle encrusted piling - I'm considering repainting the topmost plank because of that one.

I did one touch up job some years ago after an exceptionally bad docking, on the bilge plank which is not so prominent. I can see the spot but none of my friends has ever noticed it (and they haven't been shy about commenting on other mistakes!) So it can be touched up and I expect that a more experienced painter could make it invisible (but that's only an opinion.)

Jamie

[Reynard38]

That's a compliment?

Yes, there are a hell of a lot of paint out there, but Brightides and Kirby's for the sake of discussion are sort of the place-holders for the two main divisions; LPU (hard bright and shiny) and oil based (softer, more forgiving, much easier to use, cheaper, less glossy, does not look like gelcoat, good for real wood)

I took it as meaning my prep work and paint application were pretty good, but I know what you mean. Once the commenter looked at the interior he was amazed to find.... wood!
I'm really torn on this one. I've done a lot to make this glue-lap Coquina look like traditional construction.
I've ordered a quart of #12 Bottle Green from Kirby's. Today I'll run by West Marine and see if they have a quart of a dark green Brightsides.
It's gonna take a side by side comparison to make this decision. I'll post some pics when it happens.

[earling2]

Yeah, it's sort of a strange thing when I actually feel I have to introduce slightly dulled out paint just to emphasize that I'm not sailing a glass boat... does that make me a phony? Or does that make me more authentic?

On the other hand, aside from the philosophical issues, personally I much prefer a soft gloss on most small traditional working boats. My attitude is, they get dragged around, off and on-loaded, bumped, bruised... part of the "tradition" in "traditional" is that they weren't coddled. I'd rather leave the high shine to ocean yachts that theoretically never touch anything but water

[Reynard38]

I know what you mean. I've been wrestling with the choice of finishes on the Coquina.
There was a 12 1/2 at the Maine Boatbuilders show that was so perfect I wasn't certain it was wood. It took a few minutes of poking around to determine it wasn't indeed fiberglass. Incredible workmanship, but it looked a little "artificial".
I guess the trick is determining that balance.
I did order the Kirby's. I have a suspicion I'll put on the best finish of Kirby's #12 bottle green the world has ever seen

[pcford]

That's a compliment?

Yes, there are a hell of a lot of paint out there, but Brightides and Kirby's for the sake of discussion are sort of the place-holders for the two main divisions; LPU (hard bright and shiny) and oil based (softer, more forgiving, much easier to use, cheaper, less glossy, does not look like gelcoat, good for real wood)

Brightsides is a single part part paint. It is my understanding that LPUs are two part (and should not be used on traditional craft).

"easier to use": a good paint job is difficult to do. Prep is key of course...then the application is a skill to be learned. Like Lew Barrett, I prefer Easypoxy...but Brightsides is good.

Kirby's is used by a few dozen people, mainly in the NE; most of whom post here. I saw a can here in Seattle about 20 years ago.

[earling2]

From Brightsides info: "A ready-mixed one part linear polyurethane topside finish that has the ease of use of an enamel with the high gloss of a two part polyurethane."

I don't actually see the diff. between a one part urethane and a two-part. I've used Interlux Brightsides and Interlux Perfection, and the two-part Perfection was not only MUCH more awkward to handle (mixing, etc), it didn't tip and roll as nicely, possibly my fault, but in that case, since I was using my tried-and-true tip and roll methods that had worked with Brightsides for years, it's obviously a lot harder to paint with. And Brightsides isn't especially forgiving, that is, you can't just dip a brush in it and paint something.

Meanwhile, by "easy to use," I'm pointing out that Kirby's, of all the boat paints I've used, keeps its wet edge the longest--whatever driver they use in Interlux enamel, it's gone in about 30 seconds or something like that, and if you're not really on your toes, you'll get a hard edge where the wet meets the partially dry. Yuck. Kirby's is pretty forgiving and low-stress. You actually can just open a can of it and paint. Then again, Ben Moore and Pratt & Lambert oil based porch and floor is also great paint, much harder than Kirby's and cheap because it doesn't say "boat" on it, but I was told recently it's no longer available in oil.

Reynard, "I have a suspicion I'll put on the best finish of Kirby's #12 bottle green the world has ever seen"--your boat's going to look great!

[Lew Barrett]

I don't have anything at all against Kirby's but I wouldn't characterize EasyPoxy (or Brightsides) as terribly hard to use. These are very different than a 2 pack; they are not catalyzed. Another beautiful enamel is Fine Paints of Europe. I have not used it, but have seen several large boats painted with it and the results are lustrous. It is an extremely expensive product, but in the scheme of things the cost of paint is minimal against the total cost of any job.

The differences in application between a traditional oil based enamel and a one part polyurethane shouldn't give an experienced painter too much pause, but like everything else, some experience with the stuff is useful. Every material has it's own characteristics no doubt, and there is a learning curve associated with many of them. I find it almost impossible to paint with EP on windy, hot days, about the same as trying to varnish under the same circumstances. Conditions also matter, sometimes making one time comparisons difficult.

We all know that some paints suggest themselves for a certain look. No doubt, oil based enamels have a softer look that many people might prefer but there is an equal body of folks who like higher gloss. A high gloss job will take more time and more trouble to lay down if an automotive type finish is desired, but most of that work is in the prep. Actually painting takes about the same time, and the amount of working time and the material can be managed with extenders and brushing fluids. What has happened in the last 20 years is that runabout standards have been extended to cruising vessels. I don't know that this is sensible, but it is a trend that is clear. These jobs are often going to end up with high gloss as a desired outcome.

[Nicholas Carey]

Epifanes one-part yacht enamel -- not their monourethane!) is awfully nice, too. For my money, flows out much better than Brightsides. More "hide", too. And gobs o'stock colors -- 46, twice the number available from Brightside. Best red, too: the perfect shade. Not too orange, not too dark. A perfect crimson.

[Lew Barrett]

Epifanes one-part yacht enamel -- not their monourethane!) is awfully nice, too. For my money, flows out much better than Brightsides. More "hide", too. And gobs o'stock colors -- 46, twice the number available from Brightside. Best red, too: the perfect shade. Not too orange, not too dark. A perfect crimson.

It's pretty hard to find a product with less hide than Brightsides. It is intended to look translucent, but that has a cost.

[earling2]

I hope I can find this thread again when I need to paint another boat. I've been interested in the Euro paints for a while, but never really had a source of info. Lord knows Epiphanes varnish is the bees knees.

[dpincus]

What would be good for those extremely cash strapped for a glassed wood topside? I prioritize durability over looks.

[John P Lebens]

I'm also using the Fine Paints Hollandlac (the semi-gloss porch and deck version) for both interior and exterior surfaces. It's beautiful stuff. It covers well, dries flat and seems to be durable. Colors are saturated. Two or three coats gives great color depth. This is not 50 ft paint - it's the kind of stuff that looks great from a foot away. (It will pay off for the most meticulous prep.) Flying Cloud's interior surfaces look like a very expensive, glossy laminate. But you can get any quality result you want depending on how you prep and apply the paint and the gloss you choose. They can create any color you want.

The brand is sourced from a smallish Dutch company that is still independent from Asko Nobel. A Dutch friend says they are considered one of the best companies (and paints) in a country that specializes in high-end paint.

One problem is there are very few distributors. Their site is pretty helpful: http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com/

Another downside is the cost, but as Lew said, paint is a small fraction of the total cost of any paint job. The incremental cost per gallon might be one or two labor hours.

[pcford]

I'm also using the Fine Paints Hollandlac (the semi-gloss porch and deck version) for both interior and exterior surfaces. It's beautiful stuff. It covers well, dries flat and seems to be durable. Colors are saturated. Two or three coats gives great color depth. This is not 50 ft paint - it's the kind of stuff that looks great from a foot away. (It will pay off for the most meticulous prep.) Flying Cloud's interior surfaces look like a very expensive, glossy laminate. But you can get any quality result you want depending on how you prep and apply the paint and the gloss you choose. They can create any color you want.

The brand is sourced from a smallish Dutch company that is still independent from Asko Nobel. A Dutch friend says they are considered one of the best companies (and paints) in a country that specializes in high-end paint.

One problem is there are very few distributors. Their site is pretty helpful: http://www.finepaintsofeurope.com/

Another downside is the cost, but as Lew said, paint is a small fraction of the total cost of any paint job. The incremental cost per gallon might be one or two labor hours.

I have heard this is good paint, though I have never used it myself. Also agree with you regarding the cost of paint. The cost, whatever it is, is negligible compared to preparation.

[erster]

Dale, Slackwater is as good as it gets, IMO in so many areas. Can you give us more details of the hull materials? Thanks

[five guys named moe]

The cost, whatever it is, is negligible compared to preparation.

Best comment in this thread! Never underestimate the cost of prep!

I have a wood skiff painted with Easypoxy. I like it alot. Easy to apply and wears well. I have used Epifanes enamel and think it is very good paint as well. Goes on thicker than the Easypoxy. Good gloss.

[Dale Genther]

Erster - Slackwater is 35 ft. long and planked with juniper (the locel name for atlantic white cedar), keel, frames, etc. are white oak, the decks are fiberglass on plywood. She is bronze fastened, which is really odd for a deadrise. She was built in 1975 by Alvin Sibley of Deltaville, VA, who started building boats in the 50s. I haven't seen him in a few years but, he is still alive after several bouts with cancer and supposedly still working on boats. She was never used as a workboat, just as a family cruising, partying, beer drinking boat, so she was in very good condition when we bought her. This is totally opposite of all our previous boats. I'm not sure what I'm going to do with my spare time! Our intention is to eventually gut the rather spartan interior she has now and convert it into comfortable quarters for two for cruising the Chasapeake and ICW.

BTW there is quite a bit of activity in the Deltaville, Urbanna, etc. area of VA. in restoring these old wood deadrises and converting them for pleasure use. It's getting harder and harder to find a restorable one and the restored ones are going for a good bit of money.

[erster]

Thanks Dale, Its really getting harder to even reproduce the boats in its original construction methods as those folks die off. Not withstanding the lack of builders and the calls for these boats in wood, the costs by comparison to the knock off fiberglass hulls makes new almost extinct. I think Deltaville has been attempting to maintain some form of interest, from what I have been following. Bronze fasteners are for sure a rare breed. You got lucky. Good luck with the interior accomadations, but should be pretty easy and straight foward. It would be nice to see what you do with it. The bottom appears to be quite a turn of the bilge area to make the entry too.

[Dale Genther]

Erster, We are going to live with the interior as is thru next summer so we have enough time to determine what form we really want the interior to take. Our other boat, Radiance, the black hulled sailboat in the picture above Slackwater, had no interior when we adopted her. We designed and installed the accomidations before we launched her. We eventually found several things we would have done differently if we had a chance to live with her first. So we had to make some revisions. Trying to avoid that.

[Jon Agne]

Kirby's Bottle Green is a GREAT color. I've been using it for 10 years on my 14' Wm. Atkin outboard tender, and it always looks fantastic.

[Reynard38]

Ok here's #12 bottle green from Kirby's. 3rd coat. It's getting pretty smooth.



I think I'm going this route. I love the color. The paint is easy to work with, and no bad odors making thier way up in the the house (so no complaints from my wife).
I achieved this finish with a foam brush.