SMALL boats vs. Outboards

[John A. Campbell]

I'm planning a month long "adventure" in New England (alone) in late September-early October 2012 .....I want to do some tent camping interspersed every 2 or 3 days in a motel to clean up and get some good sleep. I also want to explore Walden Pond (electric outboards only), travel the Merimack and Concord rivers as Thoreau did, and proceed into Vermont, New Hampshire, and parts of Maine to tour some lakes carrying a 2 hp Honda outboard and a 30 - 40 pound thrust trolling motor....not interested in sailing. This is on my so-called "bucket list"......I'm 72 years old. Some time ago I built the Atkin "Annabelle" 10-foot flat bottom skiff with the intent to use a 2 hp Honda outboard ...thought it was a good idea since I could carry it in the bed of my Ford F150 truck but I found that this little boat is very "tender" when I get back there to start it (I weigh 172 lbs.) .....has rolled over twice so far and even though a trolling motor does fine I still want to be able to use the little Honda at times. So I'm looking for advice on a good boat to build for this trip.....she must be light, very stable, good rowing qualities, carried on a Trailex SUT-200-S aluminum trailer with a GWVR of 300 pounds, with a maximum load (passengers & gear) of 400 pounds. I thought about building the "Whisp" and have plans for her however she won't handle a 2 hp Honda. I'm looking at Tom Hill's "Pamet Blue" and wondering what others would think about this boat or perhaps would have other suggestions based on their experience.....thanks in advance for your input.

John

p.s. this thread is sort of a takeoff on another thread called "Most Beautiful Canoe" ....perhaps I should have just extended the former instead of starting a new thread.....anyway........

[David W Pratt]

There is a guy, Paul Mello, who has circumnavigated New England in one of Platt Monfort's geodesic boats, very light.
Good luck.

[Lewisboater]

perhaps you should look at a skin on frame...they are quick to build, very light and surprisingly tough. I would contact David Gentry to see if he has a model or could design one for you that would work.

http://www.gentrycustomboats.com/

[rbgarr]

I hope Fitz will post with his suggestions, canoe guy that he is. I suggest the Sport Boat by RobbWhite if you can get the plans: http://robbwhite.com/sportboat.html

If you don't get around to building a Grumman Sportboat (aluminum) would be my next choice. They appear on Craigslist from time to time. A weather cloth to cover the forward part of the boat in strong weather would be a plus.

I grew up near Walden Pond and then lived on the Sudbury and Merrimack Rivers. Fitz lives on the Sudbury/Concord now. The Sudbury, Assabet and Concord all combine to flow into the Merrimack.

Not this fall, but some years in September and October the rivers are low and somewhat muddy and ripely odorous along the shores, but the migrating bird life and coloring leaves would be beautiful.

There are state websites for tracking/updating the fall foliage changes.

Have a great time with all of it!

[wizbang 13]

Almost any small boat can be stabilised with a bit of ballast.
Try some sandbags before ditching your boat.

[Canoez]

I hope Fitz will post with his suggestions, canoe guy that he is. I suggest the Sport Boat by RobbWhite if you can get the plans: http://robbwhite.com/sportboat.html

If you don't get around to building a Grumman Sportboat (aluminum) would be my next choice. They appear on Craigslist from time to time. A weather cloth to cover the forward part of the boat in strong weather would be a plus.

I grew up near Walden Pond and then lived on the Sudbury and Merrimack Rivers. Fitz lives on the Sudbury/Concord now. The Sudbury, Assabet and Concord all combine to flow into the Merrimack.

Not this fall, but some years in September and October the rivers are low and somewhat muddy and ripely odorous along the shores, but the migrating bird life and coloring leaves would be beautiful.

There are state websites for tracking/updating the fall foliage changes.

Have a great time with all of it!

Well, Fitz and I managed to get one Texan on the Concord... Perhaps another?

[ahp]

You don't need any kind of motor for Walden Pond. It is not that big. I assume you will have a pair of ores, yes??

[rbgarr]

"Them's not 'ores! Them's me sisters!"

[John A. Campbell]

Yes, I know you don't need a motor for Walden Pond (I've been there several times) and they don't allow gas outboards but do allow electric and yes, I will have a pair of oars with me. As for the geodesic skin-on-frame boats, I really don't like them.....I like glued lapstrake best of all and really don't like an aluminum boat although they certainly have their advantages. Also, I'm going to continue to work with "Anabelle" to get more comfortable with her ....I would actually prefer using her as she can be carried in my truck and that alone simplifies things a lot. To be real honest about this, it's most likely my stupidity that the two rollovers happened along with not having proper ballast, especially in the forward end. I've got a 2-wheel rig that clamps to and supports her transom so I slide her off the truck bed until the wheels touch the ground, then pick her up by her nose and roll her into the water with ease. Thanks to all for their input so far.

You don't need any kind of motor for Walden Pond. It is not that big. I assume you will have a pair of ores, yes??

[thedutchtouch]

i will be posting a thread this winter about my build, a design of my own, skin on frame 15' motor/sail/row (in that order) boat built light enough to cartop but stable and sturdy enough to crab and fish from. it'll either be perfect for my (and it seems, your) needs or.. not. either way i hope to make it an interesting contribution.

[JimD]

I think you're on the right track with the Tom Hill design. Here's a pic of one:

[JimD]

Here's a Selway Fisher 15 foot motor canoe with a little more shape to it than a flat bottom




And another SF motor/row cobble at 15'4" x 5'2" beam





16' Port Sorell:

[Canoeyawl]

I wouldn't give up an Atkin's work.
There are some of the very best flat bottomed skiffs in that collection.
Here is one designed for a 3hp outboard, that could readily be built with plywood.

[Woxbox]

I have a Whisp, and I think it would fill the bill admirably. I have a trolling motor but never use it, she rows so easily. I'm not sure why you think the 2hp Honda would be too much. As long as the weight distribution was good and you didn't go crazy with the throttle, I can't see a problem.

[John A. Campbell]

The plans state to not use a gas outboard. I contacted Tom Hill about this as he built the prototype of the "Whisp" several years ago and indicated that the transom was not designed to handle a gas outboard. I'm not sure if this is the design of the transom or perhaps the strength of same. If it's a matter of strength, looks like that could be overcome fairly easily....no? Also, there was an indication that owing to the use of 4 mm ply, the boat could likely tend to "rack" with the use of a gas outboard. Perhaps if that's a problem I could go with 6 mm, at least on the bottom....the weight wouldn't be changed much and would result in a stiffer hull....no? As for the throttle, if the craft is stable, I would be tempted, at least some of the time, to open it up....so what could I expect in that situation?

I have a Whisp, and I think it would fill the bill admirably. I have a trolling motor but never use it, she rows so easily. I'm not sure why you think the 2hp Honda would be too much. As long as the weight distribution was good and you didn't go crazy with the throttle, I can't see a problem.

[gstanfield]

There are so many good boats out there for this and none of them would necessarily be "wrong". I built the Bateau FL14 and it performed great with a 40lb thrust electric going 4.0mph and running all day on a battery. The little honda would push it at hull speed, probably around 5mph or so. It's stable enough that I fish standing on the rear seat and yet the capacity is tremendous for a small boat. Draft is about 3" which makes for a nice river boat at times.



and one that shows the shallow water ability. WE were drifting across this shallow spot in the river without even scraping bottom, water was about 4" deep.


But, like I said earlier (and others have said too) there really are no "wrong" answers to this one so pick a design that looks good to you, something you'll enjoy building and go for it. My FL14 was overbuilt with the added gunnels (optional) and a bunch of other stuff and it still came in at about 220lbs.

George

[Woxbox]

My Whisp is built with a 9 mm bottom and 6mm sides. (I recall the plans calling for 6 on the bottom and 4 on the sides.) It's still a very light boat, 90 pounds I believe. The 2hp Honda doesn't have a huge amount of thrust. A standing knee on the transom fastened through to the skeg would be a good idea. If you did overpower it, mostly it would stick it's nose up in the air. The motor pad would have to be shaped to get the correct angle for the shaft -- not a difficult thing, just something to keep in mind. Mine isn't even permanent, it just slips over the transom before the trolling motor is clamped over it.

[MoMan]

Well, Fitz and I managed to get one Texan on the Concord... Perhaps another?

I highly recommend it ... even for non-Texans!

[JimD]

Like WoxBox says it would not be a difficult thing to alter and beef up a transom to take a small outboard. I would not let that obstacle determine my choice. I had to do a little reworking so our 8 foot pram would take a Suzuki 2.5 and it turned out just fine.

[Hunky Dory]

I am just finishing a flapjack skiff also by Redmond and think the reason he doesn't recommend a gas motor might have something to do with transom angle as much as strenth.

[JimD]

I am just finishing a flapjack skiff also by Redmond and think the reason he doesn't recommend a gas motor might have something to do with transom angle as much as strenth.

That would make sense although it is recommended for a trolling motor



But I think the Tom Hill design would be all around better for the intended use regardless of Whisp's transom

[wtarzia]

A Lowell dory-skiff sounds pretty good, actually. Flat bottom, lapstrake, transon for outboard, rowable, pretty stable, but not cheap. I had one that was 9 feet on bottom, 11 feet overall, 54 inches wide, slightly rounded topsides, transom. I used it for sailing and rowing. Very pretty, if that counts. It is floating right now at Lowells Boatshop in Amesbury, where I donated it back after 25+ years (couldn't care for it as it deserved). A slightly longer one would allow sleeping aboard easily.--Wade

[Steve Paskey]

You might consider MANDY, a 12-foot plywood skiff for oars and small outboard from Graham Byrnes at B&B Yacht Designs. I haven't built one, but Graham has a great reputation. The boat would likely be easy to build and quite capable for her size.

http://www.bandbyachtdesigns.com/mandy.htm

[John A. Campbell]

I think the "Pamet Blue" is my first choice at this point.......one change I would make, however, is to lapstrake the entire side of boat .... not just that one plank at the sheer.......I really like the shadows created by laps all the way down the sides especially painted in my favorite color Kirby's "Sandstone". Also I would use Hill's (and others) use of 3" blocks separated every 3" between the inwales and outwales in Honduran mahogany (of course)......all of my boats are done that way....several people have told me that adds a touch of class.

That would make sense although it is recommended for a trolling motor



But I think the Tom Hill design would be all around better for the intended use regardless of Whisp's transom

[alkorn]

I also want to explore Walden Pond (electric outboards only)

If you don't need a trolling motor for other things, you shouldn't compromise your design simply for the thrill of boating in Walden Pond. It's pretty small, and you could row across it quickly.

[John A. Campbell]

No, this boat is not only for use on Walden Pond....as I said in the initial posting, Walden Pond will be my first stop for a few days and then on up into Vermont, New Hampshire, and Maine for approx. one month of lakes touring. I want a boat that rows pretty well and I want to bring my 2 hp Honda outboard and a small trolling motor as well. Over an extended period of time such as this, I believe there will be times when all three individual methods of propulsion will be useful, lots of fun, and perhaps necessary. If I make a trip like that (3000+ miles round trip) with only oars, I believe I'm running the risk of the adventure failing......I want plenty of "backup propulsion" in case I develop physical problems that compromise rowing.

If you don't need a trolling motor for other things, you shouldn't compromise your design simply for the thrill of boating in Walden Pond. It's pretty small, and you could row across it quickly.

[five guys named moe]

I really liked the lines of Pamet Blue. Haven't seen anyone else build one though. Seems like lots of people have built his bigger skiff.

[sailnstink]

Carrying and charging a deep cycle battery might be more hassle than it is worth. I'd go with the 2hp and a set of oars/sail. I understand where you are coming from I like sailing and motoring I can do without rowing or paddling but will where it is the most convenient choice(ie not carrying a 70lb battery.)

[John A. Campbell]

I ordered the "Pamet Blue" plans today.....I think I made the right choice.....thanks to all for their feedback and suggestions.

John

[John A. Campbell]

Carrying and charging a deep cycle battery might be more hassle than it is worth. I'd go with the 2hp and a set of oars/sail. I understand where you are coming from I like sailing and motoring I can do without rowing or paddling but will where it is the most convenient choice(ie not carrying a 70lb battery.)

I will not be struggling with a 70 pound 12-volt AGM battery......perhaps two 35 pound 12-volters in parallel? That would also allow me to more evenly distribute the weight.

[JimD]

QUOTE=John A. Campbell;3144579]I ordered the "Pamet Blue" plans today.....I think I made the right choice.....thanks to all for their feedback and suggestions.

John[/QUOTE]

Good choice.

[Paul356]

If you liked Redmond's Whisp, then you ought to look at his Bluegill. At 15 feet, this is a beefier version that will take a motor up to 10 horse, but planes and moves out very nicely with a 1949 1.75 hp Gamble Stores, oil spitting, magneto one-lunger, I can report from repeated experience. It also rows well, using 8-footers for a real bite. I don't see a problem with the electric, but can't speak from experience on that. Built in the motor/row version, without a centerboard, there is a large flat in the middle that would hold much camping gear and could handle a sleeping 172-pounder with little or no adjustment. You can always add the sailing rig later; I added mine the second year.

Saving the best for last. It's easy to build, and provides a boat of capabilities far in excess of the simple effort required. It is very simple with only two frames to assemble, no backbone needed. The sides bend around the frames. For that reason I believe it to be much easier to build than the Flatiron by Redmond, alothough that appears to be a swell craft, too. I put my BG together over about 3 months at a time when I was working long hours and had two little ones (and an understanding wife) at home. We had a ball in that boat.

There were a couple of recent threads about the Bluegill, but I'm too lame to find them right now. Fun to contemplate this project and trip. Be sure to enjoy.