Oughtred JII/ Arctic Tern hull as a camp cruising row boat

[mp29k]

I am curious about whether anyone feels it would be OK to build a JII or an Arctic Tern (leaning to JII for easier rowing) as a Rowing only version, and then later (maybe a couple years), adding a centerboard case, rudder, and sail to convert it to sailing (the whole shebang is cost prohibitive initially).

My basic requirements are
1. good balance between sail and oar
2. able to take a crew of 4 adults occasionally, more likely 2 adults, 2 kids
3. mostly day sailing, but possibility of solo and 2 up camp cruising eventually
4. Lug Yawl sail plan (eventually)
5. Trailer-able behind a Subaru Forester
6. 15-19', as 19' is stretching my building space

I would build from a kit, they are produced locally to me from Hewes and Company (among other Oughtred boats), but was curious of those who have built similar double ended beach boats of a couple questions (would love to hear what James McMullen has to say):

1. Is the centerboard case integral to the design, or could it be added later.
1a. If it is integral, I would leave it "empty" and not cut the hole in the bottom of the boat when I first built it for rowing adventures
2. In the study plans, it looks like there is only 1 rowing thwart in all of the double ended beach boats. How does one introduce a second set of oars in this boat?
3. is this idea even recommended? I do want to eventually sail it, and plan to have sails, but the cost is prohibitive initially, so at least want to get out rowing.

[James McMullen]

Sure. It can be done. I've retrofitted CB cases to rowboats a few times. Just put a post under the thwart to take the place of the missing CB trunk.

[aldebaran]

I think its a good idea to build a JII. Its my favorite Oughtred doubleender. The Arctic I would find to be to wide for serious rowing.
I would build in the centerboard right from the start. It wont cost you a lot more. It can be built in later. No problem.
I´m also sure that the hull could be modified to have 2 rowers. Its long enough. And its just a metter of moving things around and maybe build a more square centerboard case that can support two rowing positions. Having the rear Thwart further back could even be an advantage for sailing. It´ll be right where you´ll sit and its nice to sit with feets up.

[mp29k]

Sure. It can be done. I've retrofitted CB cases to rowboats a few times. Just put a post under the thwart to take the place of the missing CB trunk.

Thanks James, I very much admire your Rowan. Do you have thoughts on the other questions, namely, whether you can have 4 oars?

[mp29k]

I think its a good idea to build a JII. Its my favorite Oughtred doubleender. The Arctic I would find to be to wide for serious rowing.
I would build in the centerboard right from the start. It wont cost you a lot more. It can be built in later. No problem.
I´m also sure that the hull could be modified to have 2 rowers. Its long enough. And its just a metter of moving things around and maybe build a more square centerboard case that can support two rowing positions. Having the rear Thwart further back could even be an advantage for sailing. It´ll be right where you´ll sit and its nice to sit with feets up.

Thanks Aldebaran!

[Venchka]

Build the case in at the correct time. The board won't interfer with rowing. You will have enough leftover plywood for the case, board, rudder, etc. if you order right. That will actually save you money in the long run. And you won't have those pieces around getting in the way or being used elsewhere. Having a centerboard in the boat going to waste might spur you on to add the rudder and spars and sails sooner.

[mp29k]

Build the case in at the correct time. The board won't interfer with rowing. You will have enough leftover plywood for the case, board, rudder, etc. if you order right. That will actually save you money in the long run. And you won't have those pieces around getting in the way or being used elsewhere. Having a centerboard in the boat going to waste might spur you on to add the rudder and spars and sails sooner.

I like this perspective. I could always get polytarp sails, or use (Iain forgive) tyvek to make some temporary ones sooner than later while saving for some loft made sails.

[aldebaran]

are you going to put polytarp on an oughtred doubleender

May I suggest that you just row it for a good while untill you have the money for a decent set of sails. Dont waste money on polytarp. Rowing is very nice and healthy as well

[James McMullen]

4 oars? Sure. You just need to put up with more thwarts cluttering up your interior. Look at any of the other dories or wherries or Whitehalls or such that are already set up for this for your typical thwart spacing. Plenty of room for customization here. I think you're going to have to lose the side benches with this set-up though. No matter, you'll just straddle a thwart sitting sideways when you need to get your weight up and out there.

[WI-Tom]

are you going to put polytarp on an oughtred doubleender

May I suggest that you just row it for a good while untill you have the money for a decent set of sails. Dont waste money on polytarp. Rowing is very nice and healthy as well

I'm curious--have you actually used polytarp sails? Though they don't last long before stretching out of shape, they seem (to my inexperienced mind) to offer decent performance at a very cheap price. If I had to choose between rowing only vs. sailing with polytarp... well, I like to sail.

My new boat will have real sails, but it'll start with polytarp because I'll have spent all my money just getting the rest of it ready. It'll be quite interesting to see firsthand what a good set of sails can do when I make the jump, but I sailed a "real" sail in a Bolger Cartopper, and now polytarp in my Pirate Racer, and didn't see a gigantic difference.

Might anti-polytarp sentiments have more to do with notions of propriety than performance? (He dared to ask...)

Tom

[aldebaran]

"Might anti-polytarp sentiments have more to do with notions of propriety than performance?"

Of course.

[James McMullen]

I sailed a "real" sail in a Bolger Cartopper, and now polytarp in my Pirate Racer, and didn't see a gigantic difference.

Might anti-polytarp sentiments have more to do with notions of propriety than performance? (He dared to ask...)

Tom

Tom, might I submit to you that the reason you didn't notice so much had somewhat to do with the fact that you weren't sailing in company that much with other boats, and especially not racing? It is when you are trying to reach the windward mark with a dozen of your closest foes that even small fractions of a degree of weatherliness become glaringly apparent. And when you are trying to beat a tidal current to get around a headland before the sun goes down, the same issue applies. Going downwind is easy, even for a fairly shapeless bag. Reaching isn't all that hard, a flat sheet of plywood can work here. But beating to windward is what separates the sheep from the goats.

A sophisticated sail shape works wonders. A polytarp sail isn't a very good investment for taking the trouble to make a sophisticated shape from because it won't last. It's not time well spent.


Polytarp sails might be good enough for simple boats. But they're not really good sails. Better than nothing I would agree with, but I'd be saving my pennies for a real suit as soon as possible.

[James McMullen]

I have heard that Tyvek works better than polytarp if you must do a quick and dirty sail.

[RodSBT]

I think its a good idea to build a JII. Its my favorite Oughtred doubleender. The Arctic I would find to be to wide for serious rowing....

There is only 4" difference in beam between the two boats (JII 5'1", AT 5'5"). I doubt 2" increase per side would decrease the rowing ability of the Arctic Tern in any appreciable way, at least in practical terms.

[mp29k]

There is only 4" difference in beam between the two boats (JII 5'1", AT 5'5"). I doubt 2" increase per side would decrease the rowing ability of the Arctic Tern in any appreciable way, at least in practical terms.

OK, that is a good point. I thought there was a bit more going on than just a beam reduction, like a fuller middle to the hull for more stability, and sail carrying ability in the Arctic Tern (AT).

To your point though, if the slightly beamier AT would not be significantly harder to row, would it add an appreciable amount of stability and room for a family of 4 camp cruising (usually daysailing)?

-K

[WI-Tom]

James,

I suspect you're right on all points in your last post; I've sailed so seldom with other boats that I really have no idea how big the difference between good sails and bad sails is. And I've never raced, so I don't have the hyper-attentiveness to small tweaks that good sailors seem to have. But lack of $ makes polytarp an attractive temporary option, I think.

Tom

[RodSBT]

OK, that is a good point. I thought there was a bit more going on than just a beam reduction, like a fuller middle to the hull for more stability, and sail carrying ability in the Arctic Tern (AT).

To your point though, if the slightly beamier AT would not be significantly harder to row, would it add an appreciable amount of stability and room for a family of 4 camp cruising (usually daysailing)?

-K

From my reading that is correct, on both counts. The AT is fuller in the bilge having a little better stability under sail but in order to notice any difference in rowing (at least from what I can see), and all things being equal, you're probably talking a hundred yrds. or so lead with the JII over the AT in a mile or two course, really not worth worrying about IMO. Either boat would be a wonderful addition to the house hold. (I have come to the conclusion that modern man often spends 95% of our time trying to solve 3% of the problem!).

[mp29k]

I have come to the conclusion that modern man often spends 95% of our time trying to solve 3% of the problem!

I agree! But the plans selection stage is so fun. I genuinely like doing research.

Since I have chosen Oughtred, next step is to actually order plans, and get Iain's Clinker Boatbuilding Manual. Does anyone think there is risk in getting the plans from Classic Marine, rather than from Iain himself? I will avoid Wooden Boat Store, as I heard their reproductions are not great on Iains plans, particularly in the full size patterns. Still debating whether to build from a hill kit from Hewes. That is where I am leaning at this point, as I expect it will lead to a fairer hull for this first time builder. I anticipate liking the building, but am mostly interested in just getting a boat on the water. Before someone recommends just getting a fiberglass boat, I have considered it, and would rather have a nice hand crafted boat than go cheap, and buy something I will only regret.

[James McMullen]

There is only 4" difference in beam between the two boats (JII 5'1", AT 5'5"). I doubt 2" increase per side would decrease the rowing ability of the Arctic Tern in any appreciable way, at least in practical terms.

As someone who actually rows a lot, I fundamentally and categorically disagree with Rod here. Of course there is more than just beam at play when evaluating boats, but 4" is HUGE when you're talking about rowboats.

I chose the Arctic Tern as the basis for Rowan as the longest and widest boat I could still find pleasure in rowing long distances in. In other words, her beam is designed to favor sailing as much as possible without compromising the rowing too much. . . but it does indeed compromise the rowing compared to the narrower boats of several of my frequent companions. When the wind picks up, she's often first in line but when the waters are glassy, she trails the pack, no matter who is at the helm or at the oars. All boats are compromises.

[RodSBT]

As someone who actually rows a lot, I fundamentally and categorically disagree with Rod here. Of course there is more than just beam at play when evaluating boats, but 4" is HUGE when you're talking about rowboats....

Agreed, but we're not talking about dedicated rowboats. Please note I said "..in practical terms."

Take a JII and an AT, built identically, rowed in the same conditions, with cloned humans rowing at the same pace and the JII will be faster. But how much faster and will that extra speed translate into any "practical" difference worth fretting over for a guy who wants to build a pretty boat that performs well under variable conditions such as:


1. good balance between sail and oar
2. able to take a crew of 4 adults occasionally, more likely 2 adults, 2 kids
3. mostly day sailing, but possibility of solo and 2 up camp cruising eventually
4. Lug Yawl sail plan (eventually)
5. Trailer-able behind a Subaru Forester
6. 15-19', as 19' is stretching my building space

..... stated by the OP.

[keith66]

Why make sails from polytarp? If you want a lugsail acquire a secondhand bermudan sail of the right sort of size, (plenty about) lay it on the floor stick a batten across it where the yard will go & slice it off, unpick the bolt rope & once it is hemmed up sew the bolt rope back on, bang in a few cringles & you get a lugsail for peanuts.

[James McMullen]

Well, I guess I see your point, Rob. Neither one is going to be an awful choice. And as for me, I would (and did) happily sacrifice that lower rowing resistance for better capacity and rougher sailing conditions security in Rowan. But I do notice the difference even between "good" and "better" very keenly, probably because I row every single week.

[Ben Fuller]

Couple of points:
Biggest factor in rowing performance in sail and oar boats is the rig and the ability to strike the masts when rowing even in a flat calm. I deal with the rig faering style, set things up so that it all sticks over the bow. This is also where oars can go when sailing.

There is no reason not to have two or 3 rowing positions. I have one for single handing and two others for double handing. If you have two people aboard both should be able to row. I have two solutions to seating for double handing: my center rowing bench could be shifted aft, since the forward bench is the structural one. Or the daggerboard ( I have a daggerboard boat) can be used as the after seat.

Ben

[David G]

Does anyone know of an Arctic Tern that is underway, or already finished? I have a fellow who just called today about having one built, and I'd enjoy talking to someone who's done one. I bet the OP would like to too.

[James McMullen]

David, that guy seems to be making the rounds. He also called on Jeff Sayler, and Jeff gave him my number too. Small world, eh?

[David G]

Yup,

The world of Small Boatbuilding is small indeed. Lots of great folks, though.

[James McMullen]

We're way too busy until at least after February, maybe March, so I'll send him back your way if he does call. The only important thing to me is that there be as many Oughtred boats out there as possible.

[kenjamin]

In regards to the two rowing stations, whether it's worth having two depends a lot on the crew. If the crew is normally the same two people who have learned to synchronize their efforts well then it makes sense to provide two rowing stations for them. In practice, even though Xena has two rowing stations, we seldom use both at the same time. Usually one person will row until they get tired and someone else will take over. I imagine if the boat were used for distance adventure rowing, it would be worth the effort to provide two stations especially if strong currents are part of the picture. For normal daysailing with my boat we find that bringing all four 11' oars along takes up a lot of space in the boat. I bring two oars usually (for someone else to use ) and I use a 5' paddle at the stern to help out a bit. Having said all that, it is kind of nice knowing that if one of my oarlocks were to fail, there's still three more left to work with. I have to say that I love my 5' Shaw & Teeney ash paddle and no Oughtred double-ender should be without one of them or similar.