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Thread: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

  1. #1
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    Default Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    What do you tell a guy who is sick, goes into a coma and doesn't have health insurance? Who pays for his coverage? "Are you saying society should just let him die?" Wolf Blitzer asked."Yeah!" several members of the crowd yelled out.
    Paul interjected to offer an explanation for how this was, more-or-less, the root choice of a free society. He added that communities and non-government institutions can fill the void that the public sector is currently playing.

    not the country i want to live in

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    What do you tell a person that is 80 years old and has a cancer that requires very expensive chemotherapy that may only buy him 2 more years of life? With Obamacare, their utilization management provisions will weigh your age and life expectancy against your potential future "quality of life" and will pay for the treatment only if the cost-benefit analysis works out in your favor. They will decide for you whether your life is worth it. But, they'll pay for a really nice wreath at your funeral.
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    I'm not worried about the uninsured.
    Ron Paul says the churches will provide coverage of healthcare costs to 50 million Americans.
    And Michelle Bachmann thinks it can all be solved by bartering a chicken.

    Why can't Obama come up with some good ideas like these?

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundbounder View Post
    I'm not worried about the uninsured.
    Ron Paul says the churches will provide coverage of healthcare costs to 50 million Americans.
    And Michelle Bachmann thinks it can all be solved by bartering a chicken.

    Why can't Obama come up with some good ideas like these?
    he's not stupid enough?

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Not the country I want to live in, either.

    Quote Originally Posted by Concordia 33 View Post
    What do you tell a person that is 80 years old and has a cancer that requires very expensive chemotherapy that may only buy him 2 more years of life? With Obamacare, their utilization management provisions will weigh your age and life expectancy against your potential future "quality of life" and will pay for the treatment only if the cost-benefit analysis works out in your favor. They will decide for you whether your life is worth it. But, they'll pay for a really nice wreath at your funeral.
    I don't think anyone clearly knows what Obamacare will do, but if it falls as far short as you describe I thank the so-called conservatives who fought him at every turn and that includes the blue-dog democrats. What you describe is NOT what Obama set out to provide, nor the Clintons, nor Carter.

    I have a cat dying now and he gets better care than some Americans. Selfish country full of selfish people.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    An illegal immigrant was hit by a car and seriously injured.. He obviously did not have insurance. The hospital spend close to 1 million dollars putting him back together the best it could. At the 1 miilion dollar point, the hospital packed him up and shipped him home to some SA country.He is now bed ridden at home with an elderly parent to take care of him. He is not living, he is not dead, he is limbo.*

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Soundbounder View Post
    I'm not worried about the uninsured.
    Ron Paul says the churches will provide coverage of healthcare costs to 50 million Americans.
    And Michelle Bachmann thinks it can all be solved by bartering a chicken.

    Why can't Obama come up with some good ideas like these?
    The chicken barter thing was not Bachmann. I believe it was the woman who lost the Nevada primary to Sharon Angle.

    I'm curious as to where we draw the line. If someone decided to drive without care insurance, he gets no help if he drives his vehicle into a tree. We are fine with that. If he is seriously injured and has no health insurance, we take care of his medical needs, and we are fine with that. Part of the reason is it's illegal to not have car insurance, but it's not illegal to not have health insurance.

    Until we, as a society, decided we're going to do like the other animals, and allow defective infants to die, until we, as a society, are willing to let the ill go untreated, it is beneficial to all of society to have universal health care. Treating the uninsured is not free.
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by S.V. Airlie View Post
    An illegal immigrant was hit by a car and seriously injured.. He obviously did not have insurance. The hospital spend close to 1 million dollars putting him back together the best it could. At the 1 miilion dollar point, the hospital packed him up and shipped him home to some SA country.He is now bed ridden at home with an elderly parent to take care of him. He is not living, he is not dead, he is limbo.*
    If this was a person here legally, how would this story be different?
    May be some rough water ahead. We're getting new captain.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Actually it was Sharron Angle.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    How does the same situation work WITHOUT Obamacare? It's not some bureaucrat making the decision, it's an insurance company.... with a profit agenda. I fail to see the difference in moral hazard here. Insurance companies have utilization review... but they are far less likely to consider what two years of additional life might mean to the patient AND the family.

    I would tend to agree that there's a threshold at which additional expensive care becomes unaffordable. We will ALWAYS have that dilemma... regardless of WHO is making the decision. We have that dilemma right now, for people with even excellent private health insurance. Nothing changes with respect to this issue, with Obamacare.
    I would rather the decision be between me and my doctor. If I have insurance and it is covered then they should pay if I want it. If it is not covered it would be my decision if or how to finance. Having worked as a social worker in healthcare for the first 8 years of my career, I never saw someone go without - there were Hill-Burton funds, Drug Company donations, and numerous other funding options that guaranteed that people without resources could pay for their medical care - I used to help link these people up with these resources, so I saw it in action.
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    John by 2014, residents will have to have health insurance.. It may not be illegal but one without will be fined by the IRS.As far as car insurance, I think except for a few states, it is illegal not to have it.It's ( healthcare mandate) being tested now and will continue being fought in the courts for a while.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    If you really truly care then fight to end the Military industrial complex and endless wars. This is where progressives now fall flat on their faces in view of their principles they espouse. Just cutting the defense budget 20% and eliminating the Black budget which is greater would feed the planet and give health care to everyone. Pretty damn simple yet you Libtards attack me for being a tax protester fighting that very system. Do something damkit! I am on your side with caring for everyone just not in support of a nanny state that uses war and death on the other hand of kindness and caring.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by John Smith View Post

    I'm curious as to where we draw the line. If someone decided to drive without care insurance, he gets no help if he drives his vehicle into a tree. We are fine with that. If he is seriously injured and has no health insurance, we take care of his medical needs, and we are fine with that. Part of the reason is it's illegal to not have car insurance, but it's not illegal to not have health insurance.
    Auto insurance and health insurance are not the same at all and can't be compared.

    Try getting mechanical breakdown insurance on a car older than 10 years or more than 100,000 miles.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    "Health Care " is synonymous with "insurance", it has almost nothing to do with health care.
    My juicer is health care .

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Some things never change do they? When we were kids, there was always a kid or two who would pull the ladder up behind him, the second he got up in the tree house. Your friends were the ones who gave you a hand or secured the ladder as you were climbing up.
    "Unrepentant Reprobate"
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylerdurden View Post
    After that basket of lies and half truths can you trust anything this dude has to say?
    it sounded like mostly opinion, you saying he is lying about his opinions?

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    The chicken barter thing was not Bachmann. I believe it was the woman who lost the Nevada primary to Sharon Angle.
    You're right John, it was Sharon Angle. My mistake!

    I can't imagine why I would have confused her with Michelle Bachmann.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    USA is a" Christian" Country?

    Maybe not anymore.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    it sounded like mostly opinion, you saying he is lying about his opinions?
    Yes. I am saying no one really knows what Norman is about as he is too busy trying to influence for the team. The balance of his posting speaks to that.

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Well hopefully norman's debates on obamacare will be a thing of the past in the not too distant future..

    P.S. doesn't the health care plan include a 3.75 % sales tax on the sell of your home ..

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    how many here would want to rely on the local mosque?

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    I have never understood the US healthcare sysytem. In the UK and a lot of Europe, you pay taxes and that includes your free health care. So, are you all too tight to pay higher taxes to get healthcare?

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have never understood the US healthcare sysytem. In the UK and a lot of Europe, you pay taxes and that includes your free health care. So, are you all too tight to pay higher taxes to get healthcare?
    but government is bad

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Tylerdurden View Post
    After that basket of lies and half truths can you trust anything this dude has to say?
    Next time he mentions that Obama was born in Hawaii; and the Twin Towers were brought down by hijacked planes.........I'm really going to think twice.

    Thanks for the heads up!

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Norman Bernstein View Post
    Here in the 21st century, the entire idea that health care for the poor and uninsured ought to be relegated to charity is an offense against humanity. We as a nation will not tolerate people dying in the streets, nor will we tolerate a situation like before Social Security, when 50% of the elederly were impoverished. We're the richest nation in the world, and such things are an abomination.
    I would hardly call 1990's America "Dickensian England" and the majority of the programs that I helped people connect up with were federally sponsored programs like those from the Hill-Burton act. Not those reliant on largess of the wealthy. How is federally mandated insurance not "charity" - isn't it a little like medicaid for everyone? Just because it comes out of federal coffers doesn't make it any less like charity.

    So you won't tolerate a person "dying in the street" (no hyperbole there), but you will tolerate a governmentally sponsored agency that tells you or a family member that they will die because the cost benefit analysis does not support further treatment?
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Concordia 33 View Post
    I would hardly call 1990's America "Dickensian England" and the majority of the programs that I helped people connect up with were federally sponsored programs like those from the Hill-Burton act. Not those reliant on largess of the wealthy. How is federally mandated insurance not "charity" - isn't it a little like medicaid for everyone? Just because it comes out of federal coffers doesn't make it any less like charity.

    So you won't tolerate a person "dying in the street" (no hyperbole there), but you will tolerate a governmentally sponsored agency that tells you or a family member that they will die because the cost benefit analysis does not support further treatment?



    And Insurance companies don't do this all the time with denials and telling you that they are missing a form, or you didn't fill it out correctly, or that's not an allowable expense. I guess Wendell Potter, former Insurance Company insider, was lying when he told us all the ways that Insurance companies boost the bottom line by denying claims.
    "Unrepentant Reprobate"
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have never understood the US healthcare sysytem. In the UK and a lot of Europe, you pay taxes and that includes your free health care. So, are you all too tight to pay higher taxes to get healthcare?
    Not speaking for myself, but you seem to have grokked what's going on here. Yes, many Americans are unwilling to pay a higher income tax if
    1. the federal or even the state governments administer a health care plan
    2. people who are in the US illegally get to have some of that health care too
    3. people whose skin is not caucasian get to have some of that health care too
    4. people who are currently not working either by chance or choice get to have some of that health care too
    5. health insurance companies can't make a good profit on the provison of the health care
    6. doctors can't make a good profit on the provision of the health care
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    someone explain to me the business model that can insure someone from cradle to grave at a profit

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Concordia 33 View Post
    Having worked as a social worker in healthcare for the first 8 years of my career, I never saw someone go without - there were Hill-Burton funds, Drug Company donations, and numerous other funding options that guaranteed that people without resources could pay for their medical care - I used to help link these people up with these resources, so I saw it in action.
    That's not health care, that's emergency care. You should know, as a social worker for 8 years, that health care is not something one gets at the last moment.

    Hard to believe a social worker would actually think that only those who sought help for their health situation should get it. What about all the people who didn't come looking for help?

    I'm sure I'd prefer a different social worker, thanks.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
    And other things, too.
    http://www.landsedgephoto.com

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by wardd View Post
    someone explain to me the business model that can insure someone from cradle to grave at a profit
    Someone explain to me why having a healthy citizenry has to be done at a profit.
    A society predicated on the assumption that everyone in it should want to get rich is not well situated to become either ethical or imaginative.

    Photographer of sailing and sailboats
    And other things, too.
    http://www.landsedgephoto.com

  31. #31
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    There are many ways to provide universal healthcare. Not all have to be by a "government takeover" as the extremists like to refer to it and they don't have to exclude freedom of choice either.

    Switzerland and the Netherlands seem to manage alright.

    It seems to me that the key to any successful system are the words non-profit.

    but you will tolerate a governmentally sponsored agency that tells you or a family member that they will die because the cost benefit analysis does not support further treatment?
    Yet you are happy for an insurance company to make that same decision based on your profitability?

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    I have never understood the US healthcare system. In the UK and a lot of Europe, you pay taxes and that includes your free health care. So, are you all too tight to pay higher taxes to get healthcare?
    No, we are self-centered and terribly afraid the other person will get more than us, so much so that we would rather no one get any and it's every man for himself. I will bet you almost anything that most of the people on this forum who complain about universal health care are uninsured or under-insured because their employer won't commit to it and individual health insurance is too expensive, but they won't come together with other Americans for fear they won't get their share (that translates into "won't get as sick as someone else" and that's just pathetic).

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernir View Post
    There are many ways to provide universal healthcare. Not all have to be by a "government takeover" as the extremists like to refer to it and they don't have to exclude freedom of choice either.

    Switzerland and the Netherlands seem to manage alright.

    It seems to me that the key to any successful system are the words non-profit.



    Yet you are happy for an insurance company to make that same decision based on your profitability?
    like medicare

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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by elf View Post
    That's not health care, that's emergency care. You should know, as a social worker for 8 years, that health care is not something one gets at the last moment.

    Hard to believe a social worker would actually think that only those who sought help for their health situation should get it. What about all the people who didn't come looking for help?

    I'm sure I'd prefer a different social worker, thanks.
    And I would never want you for a doctor (thank god you are not) if you think that I am referring to "emergency care". I hope you are a better photographer than you are a health policy analyst. I am relived that you would not want me for your social worker as my ethical code would not allow me to refuse you care.
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    Default Re: Society Should Let Uninsured Patient Die

    Quote Originally Posted by Fernir View Post



    Yet you are happy for an insurance company to make that same decision based on your profitability?
    And a government agency that makes these decisions and uses a cost benefit analysis much like a "for profit" business. The difference being that I do not trust a government employee with this level decision making (it should be between me and my doctor) and don't want to have to fly to a different country for treatment if I disagree with their determination.
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