Faster! Faster!

[Bruce Taylor]

What's a really peppy sailing monohull in the 13-15' range?

[TomRobb]

Laser?

[ishmael]

International Fourteen, Fireball. Both sloops, both kinda chile pepper peppy. How peppy? In wood? How 'bout a Finn, if you're looking for something to sail alone. Or how 'bout an Albacore? I want to say Uffa Fox, but like his one design dinghys. Sorta a shrunk Thistle for a racing crew of two. That last is the only boat I've actually sailed and it is a bunch of fun. Great racing dinghy, with all the strings to pull. Planes in about 12 knots I think. They were built in fibreglass and wood, though finding a wooden one on this continent could be a trick. Pretty common in England if the used market is any indication. Fairly strong class association over here. I've always admired them.

[This message has been edited by ishmael (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Keith Wilson]

Most of the really peppy monohulls aren't wood, although I suppose you could make one. Might not be competitive though. How 'bout a 49er? Originally an Australian class, (of course) and not for the faint of heart. See this site for photos:

http://svc104.bne101v.server-web.com...os/photos.htm#

[Nicholas Carey]

What's a really peppy sailing monohull in the 13-15' range?

In wood (although most of them aren't any more):

International 14 (I-14) http://www.i14.org -- here's a couple of photos:





International Canoe. Not what your grandfather thought of a canoe (unless he was Uffa Fox.) It's a bit longer than 15 feet though, but a whole lot more exciting: 140 pound hull, 110 sq feet of sail. Uffa Fox sailed one across the English Channel and for a month or so, er, cruised [if that's the word I want], the Brittany coast. Here's a photo.



And here's the web sites:

Sweden. http://www2.mech.kth.se/~jens/ic/

USA. http://www.conversedesign.com/IC/canoe.html


[This message has been edited by nicholasc (edited 09-26-2001).]

[ishmael]

Thanks for the pictures Nicolas. 'Bout sums up the I-14 especially. For thrilling film sequences of same, check out the film, 'Wind'. A bit sappy in the plot, but I like the sailing scenes.

Is that how peppy you want it Bruce? Tell us some more. Are you looking to race? Just exciting sails? Looking for something a bit more sedate than both crew on trapeeze?

Personally, I'm getting too relaxed for that kind of action. There are a bunch of possible designs that are peppy, but for a slightly more sedate class, which is very strong and could be raced or day sailed yet is still a thrill, I reinterate the Albacore. Checked in a search, and my initial impressions of class strength are borne out. If you are interested in such. Plenty lively unless your sinews are more steeled than mine. Might even find a wooden one, if that's important.

[BrianCunningham]

Originally posted by ishmael:
For thrilling film sequences of same, check out the film, 'Wind'. A bit sappy in the plot, but I like the sailing scenes.

I love those scenes , toss it in the VCR whenever I need some "inspiration"

[This message has been edited by BrianCunningham (edited 09-26-2001).]

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks, guys. I'm casting about for a next-boat-to-build-or-buy. I don't think I'll get permission for a cruiser, but I might be able to slip a dinghy past SWRRRMBO ("R" for "really"). I've got no interest in racing, but do like to get wet.

Thanks for the pictures, Nicholasc. I've got a thing for those International Canoes, but I don't quite see myself hanging off a trapeze. I like the sound of a 140 lb. hull, tho'. Interesting.

Jack, it's funny you should mention the Albacore. Maggie's Dad was a serious Albacore racer for a long time, & he considers it the ideal dinghy. It's a pretty big class up here -- there are usually a couple of them in the classifieds. Maybe I should just find a broken-down Albacore and bring it back.

The wooden ones are strip-planked, I think. I wonder if lines are available somewhere.

[Bruce Taylor]

What's a Finn?

[ishmael]

Bruce,

I think wooden Albacore were hot molded ply, like the wood Thistles, rather than strip, but I could be wrong. If you could get plans it would be a candidate for cold molding.

Someone mentioned wooden boats being less competitive. Although you've said you aren't interested in racing, refurbished wood Thistles WERE competitive the last time I checked(been awhile). The process of stripping the finish, followed by epoxy saturation, was laid out in a WB article(s) some ten to fifteen years ago.

Great project! I'll keep my ears open for a wooden Albacore in need of rescue.

Jack

[ishmael]

I knew a hot molded wooden Finn as a kid. Whilst the hoi poloi were sailing sunfish and sailfish, one kid(who apparently had Olympics ambitions) sailed that Finn. Imagine a Laser with higher freeboard and a bit more than a Laser's rudimentary cockpit(can't for the life of me remember what the cockpit looked like). Cat rigged, bendy spar. It was an Olympic class in the seventies.

That kid always won the sunfish races.

[Nicholas Carey]

What's a Finn?

Olympic Catboat class -- http://www.finnclass.org

4.5m LOA. Single-handed.

And you're probably not big enough -- 6'6"/220 lbs. is a good place to start for a Finn sailor.

[Nicholas Carey]

Although you've said you aren't interested in racing, refurbished wood Thistles WERE competitive the last time I checked(been awhile). The process of stripping the finish, followed by epoxy saturation, was laid out in a WB article(s) some ten to fifteen years ago.

Thistle #1 place 7th in the 2001 Nationals at the beginning of August. Thistle woodies are nice boats -- very beautiful. And you can't just build your own Thistle -- it must be built by a class-approved builder.
--

[John B]

Bit of cherub history... lots of drawings etc up to the present day...
http://sailingsource.com/cherub/hismain.htm

[Zane Lewis]

Our New Zealand equivalent would have to be the Farr 3.7 that a 12 ft 1 man boat about 110 lb hull designed by Bruce Farr before he left NZ for the US.

www.members.nbci.com/Farr37

for photos and details

[Zane Lewis]

sorry site moved to

http://members.xoom.com/farr37/

or just search on Google.com for "farr 3.7"

[Dave Thibodeau]

At 13' the MX-Ray will blow away any similar sized monohull, don't bother looking at older designs

mx-ray can be found at:

http://www.m-yachts.com

[Bruce Taylor]

I'm learning a lot. Suppose I wanted to build it myself, to meet the following criteria:

1. Light enough to launch from a beach dolly.
2. Construction: ABCM (anything but cold moulding). Clinker ply wd. be nice; s & g O.K.
3. Spirited & fun to sail solo, but not, you know...X-treme.
4. LOA under 18'.

[Wayne Jeffers]

Bruce,

For spirited sailing without trapeze or spinnaker, have a look at the Windmill. Ply construction, 198 lbs., self-rescuing. It's sloop rigged and the class rules require two for racing, but it could be set up to single-hand. And I should also note that with its long daggerboard, it's not well-suited for shallow water sailing.

They have a nice class web site located at: http://www.windmillclass.org/

Wayne

[This message has been edited by Wayne Jeffers (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Beowolf]

That Northwest Marine Design, I think they have a site on the links page has a quick looking 14 footer. 105 sq ft of sail, with an optional spinnaker on a roller furling. The 105 sq foot can be sailed by a crew of two without hiking, the spinnaker adds a little more speed to the issue. Looks like a great boat, I thought about building it but decided that I wouldn't have the money to invest into a proper rig for it and that I didn't want to work that hard while I sailed. Maybe I throw one together (Notice the casual sense with which I say that) one day when I'm trying to get a kid interested in the life.

Take Care

Jeff.

[This message has been edited by Beowolf (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Nicholas Carey]

Originally posted by Bruce Taylor:
I'm learning a lot. Suppose I wanted to build it myself, to meet the following criteria:

1. Light enough to launch from a beach dolly.
2. Construction: ABCM (anything but cold moulding). Clinker ply wd. be nice; s & g O.K.
3. Spirited & fun to sail solo, but not, you know...X-treme.
4. LOA under 18'.

Hmmm...it's nice to see that we're refining our requirements list a bit (can you tell I do software?)

You might want to consider a Merlin Rocket.



It's a British dinghy, 14ft long, ~215 lb. hull. Pretty high performance, but awfully beamy. Here's the class association web site: http://www.merlinrocket.co.uk and here is the 'alternative' Merlin Rocket site: http://my.genie.co.uk/Merlinmadness

The Merlin Rocket is usually lapstrake, but since it's a formula (open) class rather than a strict one-design, there are a number of variants -- Some boats are built of glass, for instance. Some are beamier, some are narrower. Some have a long flat run, others more deadrise. And there is a new variant, the MRX that is smooth-skinned.

It's the sort of boat that can be sailed well by all sort of people with different body types and different levels of fitness. As the class association put it, "we recognise that we are not one-design people."

I believe that WoodenBoat did an article on Rockets a few years ago -- search the online index to find it.

And it's a fair bet that you'd have one of the few (if not the only) Merlin Rocket here in the States.

[This message has been edited by nicholasc (edited 09-27-2001).]

[This message has been edited by nicholasc (edited 09-27-2001).]

[Bruce Taylor]

Nicholasc -- I have that issue of WB, and I keep thumbing those pages. In fact, I think I'll go have another look right now.

John B.'s suggestion, The Cherub, seems to have been designed as a lighter, hard-chined alternative to the Rocket. It might be a more practical boat.

I'm intrigued by the Windmill, too.

[bainbridgeisland]

I would like to second the suggestion for the International Canoe. Here is why.

They are beautiful boats with an international class history that goes back almost to the original Americas Cup.

Wooden International Canoes can still be competitive. I know you are not that interested in racing. However, competitive boats have better resale value when you are ready to move on. Modern competitive wooden boats are usually cold molded though you could also probably strip plank one.

The boats are extremely fast. Most consider them the fastest one design, monohull sailboats in the world. (Made of wood too.)The MxRay mentioned above is probably faster with her spinnaker up in moderate weather but not otherwise.

International Canoes are actually surprisingly easy to sail. They do not use trapezes but sliding seats. The seats are curved to hold you above the waves. They are wide enough to sit on comfortably. The bottom of the seat is sloped so they plane over the tops of the waves if you are caught aback. In fact, you can drop the helm and the sheet and get up and move to the middle of the boat before it capsizes. Conversely, when caught aback trapezing, you loose control of the boat as soon as your feet float off the rail.

Having talked about how easy the boats are to sail I must point out they can be hard to jibe when it is windy. It takes practice to jibe with wind over 20 knots.

I probably sound like I own an International Canoe. In fact, I have never owned one. I have borrowed boats from friends though and very much enjoyed sailing them. I have sailed few boats that give as much pure sailing pleasure. They are just plain fun to sail.

[Bruce Taylor]

Bainbridgeisland -- Thanks for your thoughts. I'll go hang around the IC websites & see what I can learn.

[bainbridgeisland]

Bruce, for your local International Canoe fleet check out this website: http://www.interlog.com/~timgitt/
This is a site for the Canadian International Canoe fleet. Most canoe sailors love to show people their boats and generally encourage them to try a test sail as well.

[ishmael]

Hey here's question. I've had my feet under hiking straps a fair amount, but I've never been hooked to a trapeze. Aside for the "nimble question" a trapeze looks, in its physics, a whole lot easier on the body. Comments from trapeezers?

[bainbridgeisland]

A trapeze is more comfortable than hiking out with toe straps. It can still be pretty uncomfortable though if the trapeze harness doesn't fit well.

As wind and wave conditions grow, fore and aft stability gets harder to maintain. When sailing fast, in waves, a sailor needs practice, judgement and strength to keep from being swept off his/her feet.

To improve fore and aft stability, sailors sometimes use loops on the rail to hook their aft foot under. The loops are commonly called ankle busters for good reason. If you capsize without getting your toe out, it is easy to break your ankle.

When sailing in really competitive fleets in rough conditions, upper body strength is commonly needed to lift your body over occaisional wave tops.

In puffy conditions when you must get on and off the trapeze often, a full days sail can be exausting.

Having pointed out the bad stuff about trapezes, with practice, strength and the right equipment, a sailor can spend 5 to 6 hours on a trapeze day after day. I would find this easier on a trapeze than hiking straps.

[garland reese]

Hey Bruce,

There is a plywood version of the International Canoe. You can purchase the plans through Selway Fisher and you can see some pictures of one on the Tyrone boats site. They call the design an IC trainer. It looks like a fast and wet ride!!
You should have a look.
garland

www.tyrone.u-net.com/#Tyrone Boats


[This message has been edited by garland reese (edited 10-01-2001).]

[Zane Lewis]

I agree with that comment above re staking vs trapize. I went from a stack boat (Laser) to a trapize boat and would never go back. When I stop being able to sail a trapise boat I would retire to a keel boat permentantly or a Flying Fifteen.

Yes a trapise boat does require you to be a little quicker but you soon learn that to get in when the wind dies all you do is lift you feet and land them on the centre board.

Having said that a trapise boat is far less physically demanding. Easy to get back to windward in a blow, tou just lie there. A bit harder to get home in a blow if home is downwind.

Zane

[Ben Fuller]

The US International Canoe web site is http://www.conversedesign.com/IC/canoe.html; the British one is http://www.intcanoe.org/. One of the US sailors, Bill Beaver has designed a single chine canoe that is just as fast or faster than the international one design hull. He also has a multichine version of the international canoe. Both are well suited to competent amateur boat building. For a tamer ride, Joe Youcha at the Alexandria Seaport Foundation has built a couple of 1930 vintage soft mainsail international canoes that were designed for easy amateur construction by L.F. Herreshoff called the Arrowhead class. If you want to see a bunch in action come to Bristol RI next August for the World Championships.

Ben Fuller, Macavity US 172, Chair International Canoe Sailing Committee

[Nicholas Carey]

I'm not sure 'easy on the body' is how I'd describing going out on the wire. I think it just fatigues you in different ways -- instead of ankles and abdomen, it's legs, back and arms. And then the violent capsizes that loft you off the end of the wire and into the mast...ouch! (I470 -- skipper slipped out of the hiking strap and overboard in about 30kts of wind. And he had the main cleated down. Oops. Guess who was on the wire?)

But it's a hell of a lot of fun.

[John B]

I was on the trapeze in a Javelin a few times.
#1 we hit a wake
#2 that forestay looked a lot like a cheesecutter to me.
#3 I was OK because I was well forward of the forestay.

[Ken Hall]

Not to hijack the thread, but do any of you have any experience with or opinion of the Fireball? I think know where I can get one cheap or maybe a little less than cheap....

Ken, curious Ken

[bainbridgeisland]

The Fireball is an international class sailing dinghy. Twenty years ago I raced one with a sail number over 10,000, so there are a lot around. The class is spread out around the world. There are competitive fleets in North America, Asia, the Middle East, Australia, Europe and Africa.

With top level sailors, they are about as fast as a 5o5 upwind in flat water. In a chop the 5o5 is faster. Most people are surprised to find out they are so fast. The reason is because they are very light sailing dinghies. Spinnakers are almost identical to a 470.

The most competitive boats are plywood. Since the scow shaped hull is developed from flat panels, fiberglass isn't stiff enough.

The hull was originally designed as a single-handed with a sliding seat. The sloop rigged boat we know as a Fireball came later. The plywood boats seem to have a long competitive life.

You will find the boat handles nicely. It balances well and is not extreme in any way except light of weight. You can comfortably club race with total crew weight from 260 lb to 320 lb. Top competitive crew weights for racing focus around 290 lb. The boats are fun enough to sail that racing is not the only excuse to use them.



[This message has been edited by bainbridgeisland (edited 10-04-2001).]

[Ed Harrow]

Then, of course, there is this:



A Mirror 16. All-up weight is around 250 lbs, roomy, can camp/cruise in them, and FAST too. Easy to build. I don't know the current status, nor if plans are still available.

This one scared more than a few cats in Scituate, MA harbor back about 1970. Scared my brother and I half to death once, but that's another story.

[Bruce Taylor]

Thanks, Ed. I looked up the Mirror class assoc. website, but they're down. There's an online discussion group tho', so I'll pose some questions there.

Bainbridgeisland -- Thanks for the Can. IC site. Do you know of a source for plans?

[Scott Rosen]

It's nice to see people still excited about Thistles. I don't think they would fit Bruce's specs, though. A Thistle is about 17 feet, but heavy, and I think the only way you could build it in wood is by cold-molding.

[garland reese]

Hey Bruce,
There is a tamed version of the IC from Selway Fisher www.selway-fisher.com/Sailcanoe.htm#JC10

This boat looks to be a simple and economical way to get a taste of what IC sailing is like. And it (the JC10) should be plenty fast, considering that the IC class is touted to be the fastest monohull around. Not an IC, but pretty darn close...
Garland

[bainbridgeisland]

r.e. Do you know of a source for plans?

There are actually quite a few International Canoe (IC) plans available depending on construction method and particular flavor of canoe.

You should check with your local fleet to begin with. They can probably direct you better than I. I don't know the fleet in Quebec. In Ontario there is a local fleet www.tap.net/~daver/ocsa.phtml.

Some construction, manufacturing, information is available from this site: www.interlog.com/~timgitt/getIC/where_to_get_new_IC.html

In Canada, Bob Lewis would probably be able to give you local contacts and will also know where to find plans. You can contact him through the Canadian IC site previously mentioned.


Ben Fuller, who provided the info on the USA fleet on this forum, has been an IC sailor for years. He would be a good source for IC stuff. I am sure he has opinions on plans too.

One last source is my old friend Del Olsen at dwolsen@aol.com. He was responsible for the redevelopment of the West Coast, USA, fleet. He had sources for plans.

Good luck

[This message has been edited by bainbridgeisland (edited 10-07-2001).]

[Ken Hall]

Thanks, Bainbridge. As it turns out, the current owner has no further use for it, it's been hanging in his garage for a decade, and he's offered it to me free. I figure to accept, and take it off his hands in mid-May once spring semester is over.

Ken, bottom-feeding Ken

Update, 10/24: I got to look at the boat Monday evening, and it seems to be in solid shape. The giver is the retired father of a colleague. He built it in the late '60s from mahogany ply and resorcinol, ring-nailing the panels to the stringers (he had some work-in-progress photos to share). I'll need to refinish and perhaps replace the rigging, but it looks awfully good, and even better for free. He built a nice frame and pulley system for storage in his garage, and I plan to do the same in mine.

I've offered him first ride when it's ready--it's the very least I can do, and he's the logical choice to show me how to step the mast and tune the rig anyway. The hull number is somewhere in the four digits--can't recall whether it's 3226 or 6232 or something else, at the moment.

Ken, excited Ken

[This message has been edited by SelfSinkingFlatiron (edited 10-24-2001).]