New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

[PeterSibley]

I'm continuing to watch with great interest .Thanks Brian .

[john welsford]

There are a number of reasons behind that tumblehome. One is that there is an expectation that a "Canoe" will be a light, slender thing and the tumblehome considerably reduces the visual bulk of the boat in its mid and after sections. Two is stability, this boat is a small sailing craft first and foremost, but unlike most small sailing craft is not to be dependent upon its crew weight being hung out over the windward gunwale in order to give enough stability to sail well. In order to do that I as designer have to provide a wide waterline beam without compromising point one. If you view the swelling in the sides as a widening of the hull where needed to increase stability rather than a narrowing of the deck for cosmetic or styling reasons, you'll see that it makes sense.
Yes the narrower deck beam will help the paddler, and thats a consideration even though the boat is to be set up to row, the change from sail to rowing will take a little while and involves moving seating and such, but to get the boat the last few metres to the beach or a dock a single paddle from the helm seat is possible and with the narrower deck just about comfortable.
While thinking about it, there is another thread running about conversion of glued lap ply boat plans to solid wood construction, and this would be an example of one that would be difficult, that top plank would have to come out of very wide stock, possibly as wide as 15inches and getting quarter sawn Western Red Cedar of that width and grade, while not impossible, is not easy or cheap.

John Welsford

[PeterSibley]

John ,a completely basic question .What are the weather/wind and sea conditions that you had in mind during design ?

What are the safety parameters ?....I have no experience of a boat like this but find her very attractive .

[john welsford]

One reef in the main at about 15 knots Sail in up to 20 knots comfortably, sail in up to late 20s with care and some skill, survive in mid thirties up to perhaps 40 depending upon sea state.

So much depends upon sea state, and that depends upon tide speed and direction relative to wind, and where you are relative to shelter ( on or offshore winds etc).
Brian wants to be able to do some limited coastal cruising, and I'm aware that the area along the English South Coast from where he lives is at times a very difficult stretch of water, so within the limitations of the type I"m doing my best not to drown my customer.
I have by the way just a few moments ago completed a set of full sized templates for the build moulds. I'll get them scanned and emailed to Brian on monday.

John Welsford

John ,a completely basic question .What are the weather/wind and sea conditions that you had in mind during design ?

What are the safety parameters ?....I have no experience of a boat like this but find her very attractive .

[PeterSibley]

This is my cruising ground John ,Moreton Bay .About 20 km East /West .50km North South .

[aldebaran]

Isnt it so that the idea of tumblehome is to get the bouyancy as close to the waterline as possible? You pump out the hull down below, and so you get a wide waterline. It gives you a very good primary stability. When you heel over, the hull has little to lean on, and on a keel boat you then rely on the weight of the keel. Thats how my Albin Vega works. (it has tumblehome)
But on a canoe you dont have a keel. On the contrary, its a light hull where the crew isnt meant to sit or hang out. When heeling a bit over and getting a sudden gust, hulls with tumblehome heel over much more dramatically than hulls with more extra bouyancy in the topsides. I think thats a bad idea on a small narrow hull without a keel..
Another thing is that since this hull is meant to be rowed and its already a bit on the narrow side when looking at spread of the oars, what you get is an even narrower spread.
So all in all, I think the tumblehome is a bad idea. But thats just me.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I think the idea is to get the buoyancy as close to the waterline when the hull is heeled. Perhaps as John mentioned you can just think of it as a way of bringing the deck edge in a little. It's only a couple of inches. Tumblehome must have worked for the Albin Vega - there were 3450 of them built!
We have always planned to use folding oarlock outriggers to provide the correct beam for the correct length oars to row the hull.
The other thing is that by removing the harder deck edge, and "rounding" it with tumblehome, it will be easier to roll back into the boat after a capsize. John has designed in about 45 litres of sealed air space under the side deck, formed by the bilgeboard case, deck, hull, and sealed ends, so there will be good additional buoyancy support for rolling back on board.
Brian

[john welsford]

I have done quite a lot of sailing in Moreton Bay, its a wonderful place for small boats. The shop on Bribie Island serves very good fish and chips by the way.

JohnW

This is my cruising ground John ,Moreton Bay .About 20 km East /West .50km North South .

[aldebaran]

Brian

The important thing is that you are convinced. Because you are the costumer and the builder.
I´m looking forward to see pictures of the build and the boat.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I've been considering build options, which also reflect initial materials choice and the finished look.

I've taken a liberty, and roughly drawn in 5 planks lined off (this is my amateur work not John Welsfords) to get an idea of how she will look in the Brunzeel Occume 4mm we've been keeping for a special occasion, then a painted finish. I'll say it again, the lining off is my work this afternoon, not Johns: its just to get an idea: every steam train need to be stoked - after loading the lines picture into the basic paint program in 'accessories' and colouring her in.

Here she is, its like she's at the point of birth from the page. Wonderful.

[PeterSibley]

She is very much a traditional sailing canoe with lots of deadrise .This is quite exciting !

[JotM]

I think it's beautiful Brian!
I also think that's a considerable amount of twist in the forward section of the garboard strake and in the second strake between sections 2 and 3, but I guess you'll be able to even that out.

It almost causes me to wait a bit and go build this one, instead of a Bufflehead. :-o
Well who knows. First one up is a 1:5-ish model of Bufflehead next winter.

Regards,

Jaap

[keyhavenpotterer]

JotM,

It almost causes me to wait a bit and go build this one

Glad you like Nautilus so far JotM, can I convince you further?

It's all about a lifestyle purchase...

• Stiff but light weight reinforced monocoque hull enables her to be pulled above the tide line on wilderness trips.

• Nautilus has large buoyancy and storage compartments plus single berth accomodation, for overnight wilderness stops on a rocky shoreline.

• Sliding seat rowing maximises your aerobic fitness and power transfer through the water.

• Nautilus has optimised waterline length for high daily cruising distances, minimised waterline beam for optimum control in blue water waves and high secondary stability for greater power and control when pressed in high winds.

• The balanced lug rig is instantly raised and lowered for an immediate beach launching, further offshore the yawl rig will keep her head to wind at will.

[keyhavenpotterer]

A six, same even width, plank layout nicely fits the tumblehome curves, and makes for a narrower garboard plank to take the twist - guess we just must be patient and wait for John's expert lining off.

Brian

[JotM]

It's all about a lifestyle purchase...

• Stiff but light weight reinforced monocoque hull enables her to be pulled above the tide line on wilderness trips.

• Nautilus has large buoyancy and storage compartments plus single berth accomodation, for overnight wilderness stops on a rocky shoreline.

• Sliding seat rowing maximises your aerobic fitness and power transfer through the water.

• Nautilus has optimised waterline length for high daily cruising distances, minimised waterline beam for optimum control in blue water waves and high secondary stability for greater power and control when pressed in high winds.

• The balanced lug rig is instantly raised and lowered for an immediate beach launching, further offshore the yawl rig will keep her head to wind at will.

That's true I guess. Perhaps that's even true for any choice of boat?

And if so, what can be learned about a person from his of her choice of boat?

(like my Ally 16.5 DR [811] folder, which - not accidentally - nicely combines with the family (1981) Rapido Confort-matic folding caravan)

But I guess a glassed 8mm stripped boat is going to outweigh my intended use. The boat I'm going to build absolutely has to be car-topable.

Regards,

Jaap

[Daniel Noyes]

Before the internal combustion engine, before the great wars, a man found himself some adventure, in those times, with his sailing canoe. They ventured all over Europe in them, taking advantage of the industrial revolution's great powerhouse, the steam engine (they put them in the luggage compartment) and cruised far and wide. No marinas, no powerboats, little shipping. The cruising was typically along shore and offshore in good conditions. This neccessitated a more powerful and commodious hull form.

Gareth posted an original picture of Warrington Baden Powell with his Nautilus in black and white above, luckily a recent auction at Turks, UK (they sold off there collection used as film props) had an original Nautilus (there were several, as they were developed). Dad was outbid in the end, but he took some pictures of her. She was built in 1887. I'll post the pictures, so people can familiarise themselves with not just the original type, but an original boat's shape, rigging and construction details.












Edward (Brian's son).

It really is incredibly impressive that the original Nautilus that raced in New York (Is this the one) still exists.

The Nautilus is a famous canoe in America and I reconized the name when you started the thread... but it is famous for loosing the racing series to the American sit on top canoes and changing the direction of canoe racing and construction.

here's what WP Stevens of forest and stream wrote

"The day of the heavy displacement English canoes Pearl and Nautilus ended in 1886, when the two latest models of these renowned types visited the United States, Mr. Baden-Powell bringing his Nautilus and Mr. Walter Stewart a new Pearl - both sailed from below deck and heavily ballasted. After being decisively defeated by the light American canoes Vesper and Pecowsic at the meet at Grindstone Island, they were beaten by the New York C. C. boats on New York Bay, though their owners abandoned the below-deck position and sailed them from the deck. This experience led to the introduction of light displacement canoes with many American fittings in England, and also resulted in the production of a new type of sharpie canoe, with flat floor and straight sides, sailed without ballast. For some years following 1890 canoeing and canoe racing were in a very depressed state in England, but within a few years there has been a marked revival."

though for a cruising canoe this may be just the style of sailing desired.

[keyhavenpotterer]

But I guess a glassed 8mm stripped boat is going to outweigh my intended use. The boat I'm going to build absolutely has to be car-topable.
Regards, Jaap

My GRP Shearwater canoe from Solway Dory is listed when stripped, ie hull only, as weighing approx 90 lbs, 41 kg. She is car topped by many people including myself. Since Nautilus is same length and slightly narrower then she should weigh about the same. Both are decked sailing canoes, and plywood is much lighter than grp. Built in foam and epoxy she could well be lighter, so possibly car topped as easily as Shearwater.

Brian

[keyhavenpotterer]

I think its the same one. The details and fittings look the same to me.

For it's type, this will be a heavy displacement sea cruising 'canoe': really a long slim double ender. She will be incorporating some lead internal ballast, some lead ballast in the centreboard tips and some, adjustable, water ballast when its needed. She's is drawn to be beamier than many narrower 'paddling canoe types' and has designed in, added extra reserve form stability, shown by that extra beam below the deck line, as well as the lead stability, to make her stiffer than the typical/ usual paddling 'canoe' type, when pressed. It also help when sitting aboard watching wildlife, sleeping aboard or slide seat rowing if you catch a wave with an oar.

Dad has enjoys the 'sailing canoe' shape - long and lean with a high waterline to beam ratio it has many pleasurable attributes: a shallow displacement curve, low wetted area, low cross sectional area, low inertia, low wave making resistance etc. He's had a McGregor and two Solway Dory sailing canoes with bermudan and lug rigs +/- yawls, apart from all the other sailing boats and the scows he's raced. Years on the water and wind have inflammed dad's inner ear (that does the balancing), and has left him with vertigo, if he moves his head from side to side quickly, like when your sat sideways on a boat, or during a tack, leaving him falling over. He's better if he doesn't go sailing, but he misses it too much, so in the last year, he's raced intermittently and put up with balance problems a few day after each time to continue his sailing.

So, this is dad's 'last boat', he wants the sailing canoe's high performance and responsiveness - that high length to beam ratio - to be able to sail clean past other dinghies - to make a point - and light weight to pull up a beach to get back on a trolley/ trailer now he's in his later years, but with higher displacement, so he can reboard her without acrobatics in gentlemanly fashion should he need to, and greater sail carrying power/ reserve stability, as it goes from a Force 2 to to a Force 4 in an afternoon, and you get alot of wind over tide sailng alot round here as the water sluices in and out. Mr. Welsford's Scamp was high on the list, but dad felt it would be too heavy to pull up the local ramp, and a Bufflhead he felt would be require too much sitting out and is a bit tricky too build apparerntly. He also wanted a sliding seat, finding it much preferable under oar on my brothers American Echo rowing scull.

He can can sit still facing forward, with a full view and controls to hand, with out having to spin his head ever. Hence he want's/ needs that 'sit in' sailing canoe developed by Baden-Powel in Nautilus back in the 1880's. Its what dad wants and needs now, but a long slim sail and oar boat that can also be alternatively sliding seat rowed, when you just want to get some exercise 'up the river', easily managed one handed, won't take up much material to build, capable and fast for single handed wilderness tripping, could be a good boat to others.


Ed (I'll be building it probably). Son of KHP.

[PeterSibley]

I am certainly looking forward to the build photos .I'm getting more and more interested in her !

[skaraborgcraft]

Brian,this new canoe of yours is all very nice and all that........but what about all your French girls?

[keyhavenpotterer]

Brian,this new canoe of yours is all very nice and all that........but what about all your French girls?

I think that's a question aimed at (my son) Edward. As for me, I will be seeing lots of French girls for the next two weeks. I will be rowing on Lake Geneva from the French shore near Evian!

Brian

[coucal]

What's the technique for setting, storing & retrieving the anchor in a cruising canoe? With your plan to anchor off rocky shores, do you ever anticipate having to set more than one?

[keyhavenpotterer]

I think the approach is to have the anchor warp going forward to a closed fairlead on the bows. A retreival line goes froward from the cockpit ,has a loop outside of teh fairlead which the warp goes through. Retrieving the anchor is, pull warp till anchor clears water and is just reaching the bows. Then pull retrieval line whilst easing warp, so anchor comes back to the cockpit for storage. Perhaps the retrieval line would be double ended so the loop can be moved for and aft to the bows.

I have not actually done it yet, but Howard Rice had something like this set up for SCAMP when he trialled her. Perhaps others have actually done it this way?

Brian

[coucal]

Thanks Brian. I must admit that I have looked at the pictures of Howard Rice's 'Sylph' and wondered what the trick was.

Jack

[Steve Keating]

HOward,
Beautiful board.
Are you sailing the Nautilus now? What was the cost of your finished boat? How is Nautilus different from "Walkabout?"

Steve

[Howard Rice]

Hi Brian
Just back from Port Townsend and the Woodenboat Festival, a great experience. I was able to present on small boat adventure sailing and cruising, Cape Horn Solo and a co presentation ie lending John Welsford a hand in one of his presentations as he did in one of mine.

Before I address the anchor retrieve line I would like to report that spending time with John was a stitch. We have known each other for some 18 years but had never met, only talked on the phone. The man is not only a talented designed but one of the great pun masters, all of us suffered greatly from his whacky humor;-)...................... I wonder if it is possible to have too much fun, we came very close.

John also presented the Nautilus concept during his presentation on design briefs. I took he and his wife sailing aboard SCAMP for the wooden boat parade on Sunday afternoon. At one point we lined up with three other larger Welsford designs and Scamp slowly walked away, the little boat has "sneaky speed".......John stated to several folks that SCAMP may be his favorite design to date. The boat sure received constant attention from show goers (there was always a crowd around her and we answered many questions and I believe Josh Colvin sold many plan sets) and during the boat parade. I again enjoyed being the test or this time boat show pilot for SCAMP. She is a fine small sailing boat. I also believe she is a new genre of small boat based on the varied elements that make up her whole, remarkable really.

Now on to my anchor retrieve line. It is simply a short line with a bowline in one end. I pass the anchor rode through the bowline bight (the loop) before deploying the anchor. The bowline ends up at the bow of my canoe or dinghy. When it is time to up anchor I simply pull the retrieve line aft pulling the anchor rode aft (and concurrently pulling the boat slightly forward) and then haul the anchor amidships right at the side of the canoe or boat. I then stow it. Perhaps as important as the retrieve line are the different anchor stowage systems to use for keeping the anchor and rode organized and at the ready.
Best,
howard

[David G]

Howard,

It was a pleasure chatting with you at PT. You're right about both SCAMP and John. When we were sailing in company with all the Welsford boats, I was amazed at the speed and responsiveness of that tiny big boat. I'm sorry I had to call off sailing with you... the Penguin skipper I was sailing with was a new owner, and I volunteered to help him retrieve. I'm looking forward to seeing the Nautilus!

[Howard Rice]

Hi David
It was a pleasure to spend time talking about SCAMP on SCAMP. Too bad we didn't get to sail together but good we saw each other on the water. Nice sail and nice that no one was racing, just fun to watch the little SCAMP pull away given that she has such a short water line in comparison to Penguin and Navigator.

Hope to see you again soon.
Best,
howard

[skaraborgcraft]

I think that's a question aimed at (my son) Edward. As for me, I will be seeing lots of French girls for the next two weeks. I will be rowing on Lake Geneva from the French shore near Evian!

Brian

These French girls Brian..have you forgot them already? They are a bit miffed that there is no room for them in your new vessel.

[PeterSibley]

Brian,

Any progress on Nautilus ? More drawings ?

[keyhavenpotterer]

John's been away in the US till now, so no new progress just now. Guess John will have a lot to catch up on as well. Sure time sailing with Howard Rice will have developed some thoughts as well. Brian

[PeterSibley]

I'll be watching ! This boat is way outside anything I've ever taken an interest in but she is just delightful ....

Peter

[john welsford]

I'm home and back on deck, there are lots of things to catch up on after 6 weeks on the road but I will be at the drawing board tomorrow.

It was a great trip, very good to meet you Howard and David, also great to meet the many others who came up and introduced themselves at Port Townsend and Sail Oklahoma. I am sorry to have missed out on meeting several people who I know were at PT but found myself more than a little stretched with 5 talks totalling 5 1/2 hours plus time on SCA and NW School of Wooden Boatbuildings stands.

Wasnt it a great show!

I got lots of ideas from the boats on show and some of the people I spoke to, back to the drawing board, literally.

Thanks all for the enthusiastic and hospitable welcome.

John Welsford

[PeterSibley]

I missed this ... John, updates as soon as available please !

[keyhavenpotterer]

Flo-Mo has kindly created some 3D rendering for Nautilus. Here's three views of smooth skin and 7 plank per side version.

From forward quarter



From stern quarter



And from forward starboard quarter

[flo-mo]

I added a slideshow of the Nautius renders to my design-studies page: http://flo-mo.weebly.com/boat-design-studies.html
(at the bottom of the page)

[keyhavenpotterer]

Cassy, by George Holmes, is one of the 1800's sailing canoes which inspired our new Nautilus. Cassy is just 40" beam, no ballast apart from a 75 lb plate and carries 104 sq ft of sail. The new one does look more than 40" beam?



Thanks to a heads-up from Gavin at http://intheboatshed.net/ I will now be able to see a brand new Cassy being launched on the 7th Dec at the Lyme bay Boating School seasons launchings. Really looking forward to seeing her in the flesh. Looks like she has also been built with twin bilge boards.

Here are some build photos from the School website http://www.boatbuildingacademy.com/students/studentprofilesmarch11/DerekThompson-14CanoeYawlCassy.htm

[PeterSibley]

An interesting gallery but that sure looks like a lot of work compared to glued lap .IIRC there was a ClassicBoat article / series on building a Holmes Eel perhaps 15 years ago ?

[keyhavenpotterer]

Here's a link to a PDF of the clinker ply version un-wrapped showing the individual planks. These are from FLO-MO. John's actual physical planking half model will refine and develop the planking.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&pid=explorer&chrome=true&srcid=0B4Bi31i xDF93NTY3YzRmNTAtMjgyMi00NzY5LWFlZDktMmY0YzY1MGI4M GJj&hl=en_US

Brian

[PeterSibley]

I find the things these gentlemen do with their CAD amazing ! I'm very much a sticks and glue kind of builder and my drafting is 2H pencil, ducks and film.

Has John suggested a ply thickness ? 4mm ? Number of sheets ?

[flo-mo]

[Bill Mercer]

So, does anybody know when the final plans will be available?

[PeterSibley]

Perhaps you could email John Welsford, her designer? http://www.jwboatdesigns.co.nz/

I'm curious too !

[keyhavenpotterer]

It may well be my fault things are delayed. Partly due to cold winter weather and space I can use is very very cold, and a Spring start would make far more sense. Also I may have confused things - this is where you can help. What build method do people prefer?

We started with clinker ply, I have 9 sheets of 4mm Bryunzeel all ready. The shape then leant towards cedar strip. While John was away I read up and watched the videos and backtracked a bit. I think Nautilus needs a cedar and a ply version. In fact I think it would help plan sales if we had a Stitch and Sheath version as well, and this would be the one I would go for. Using a female mould system as CLC do for the hull and deck of their sit on top http://www.clcboats.com/media_gallery/slideshow.html?boat_id=318&content_type=1

[PeterSibley]

What build method do people prefer?

I'm not sure I have the right to even express an opinion on that question Brian . It is your project and no matter how you progress it will be a beautiful craft .


Now attempting to weasel a way around the above .... if all the methods you mention were specified I would be particularly interested in the glued clinker version .

[Hesp]

You haven't got many answers to your question Brian, and I think Peter's said why - the method I prefer doesn't matter as it's not my boat. I know you have a very clear vision of this boat, and IMO it would be a mistake to compromise it by taking a vote on build method. Works of art designed by committee are rarely successful.

So having said that you shouldn't take any notice of me - I'd choose glued clinker personally. I'm not sure the stitch and sheath method would be very successful aesthetically. Strip plank would look good but weigh heavier than glued clinker. I think glued clinker fits the ethos of the design perfectly, in both a practical way and an aesthetic way.

As for not starting until the spring - this is England, it's not that cold today (for instance), and the reverse side of the coin is that it's not going to be that warm in the spring. Life's to short to wait for ideal conditions. Yes, you will get days when it's too cold to epoxy with guaranteed results (but you might be able to rig up some sort of localised heating), but there must be loads to do which doesn't need epoxying. I think you'll be kicking yourself later on for not getting all those little jobs out of the way which you could have done over the winter.

John

[JotM]

De gustibus non est disputandum

And why should we? I think the photograph below of John Winter's Osprey in both S&G and strip shows that the result is distinguishable different, but I see no point in questioning the aesthetics in either one of them.
(it would have been nice having a version using CLC's LapStitch method next to it )




By the way, female moulds are used on the Osprey S&G as well.



Regards,

Jaap

[keyhavenpotterer]

The CLC SOT kit creates a good looking boat.



It's functional, looks good, and CLC shift a lot of kits. I understand that epoxy clinker is the most refined, yet all the main kit suppliers concentrate mainly on S+T or varients such as lapstitch. No one has created volume sales with epoxy ply kits, never mind where the planks are shaped by the novice builder. I was hoping that a high quality CNC kit of jig and parts might change that but that's not to be.
I really want people to build Nautilus and enjoy a carefully designed sailing canoe. Most people coming to a sailing canoe design will not have sailed one before, so there will have great concerns about that narrow beam. If worries about capability of building is loaded on top of that, few will start. Remove the build concerns and the design doesn't loose customer even before it started.
Look at the high quality work by PT Watercraft with their lovely 11 Skiff as an example of good looking results.
Yes I would love a non glassed epoxy clinker hull but I do not have the skills needed, I do think I could build in the female mould Stitch+Sheath style that CLC have proven so well suits new builders.

Brian
Brian

[Hesp]

"I think the photograph below of John Winter's Osprey in both S&G and strip shows that the result is distinguishable different, but I see no point in questioning the aesthetics in either one of them." ....... Jaap

As we're not building the boat I'd agree. If I was building the boat I'd question the aesthetics very very closely indeed. I think that aesthetics is something that for some reason we're a bit embarrassed to talk about, but I think it's one of the most important aspects of a design such as this. (As opposed to say - An America's Cup boat where there are other priotities).

John

[PeterSibley]

Aesthetics are all to me ... well perhaps not all but a rather large proportion of the whole. I have not been well pleased with the S&G jobs I've seen while realising that they could be made to look good with an inordinate amount of work. Unpleasant work too...sanding resin and glass doesn't rate highly in my book .

The funny thing is that glued lap or glued clinker should by rights be easier. 'Glued' being the operative word . The bevels are the sticking point() but with gooey epoxy they don't need to be perfect .We aim for perfection but epoxy with micro balloons is a great 'help'! The next point in favour of glued lap is the laps.They look good and are just that .... laps .If there is a slight variation in lap width ...who is to know. As long as the run is fair .

So, glued lap for me. Not purely on aesthetics but because to achieve a job I'd be happier with it should be easier and certainly faster .