New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

[keyhavenpotterer]

Hi Adrian,

We have not discussed sheathing her, I think she will be just varnished or painted. I have this picture in my mind of her in mahogany ply, all varnished, yellow cedar varnished woodwork and custom cast bronze hardware.

Howard Rice has highly recommended foot pedals for steering as a very worthwhile feature and he combines them with twin push/pull tillers, so I think that will be the way we will go. Yes using the rudder when rowing, perhaps only slightly down, sounds good and will just need one tiller trapping in a rubber jaw or under an elastic to help with course heading.

JohnW has already said to me she will be set up to sail from the side decks and hike out if I am feeling in the mood.

Oar storage not discussed yet. The sliding seat - is a sliding thwart, supported on a rail fixed to each cockpit side as shown in the picture earlier in the thread. So she should slide forward out of the way, perhaps make a nice dining table as well. Or even a chart table. My current sailing canoe has movable seats which slide back and forwards on cockpit side rails, just has pin stops to allow both seats to be adjusted or slid out completely, this will be similar with the addition of rollers, keep the pin stops to fix if required.

I am trying hard to leave John alone and let him progress the detailed hull design - the key feature of everything.

Brian

[john welsford]

She will be glued lapstrake plywood with a glass reinfocing and chafing strip down the centerline, and painted. Strip plank with glass will be an option.
You could use any one, any two or all of those steering methods plus whipstaff or side tillers. Yes you can use it when rowing.
The sliding seat slidese right forwards and folds up against the forward cockpit bulkhead, and the oars stow on the cockpit floor against the offcenterboard casings.


Next question?

John Welsford

Bump.... if for no other reason than it looks such a terrific design

Brian any updates? Is the boat going to be sheathed/ encapsulated or just painted? Would it be possible to combine pedals, lines and removable push/pull tillers? Might it be possible to still use the rudder when rowing (just enough to help with maintaining a heading)? Although the boat is designed to be sailed from inside the cockpit, will it still be possible to hike out? Where will you put the oars and sliding seat when you are sailing?

Cheers,

Adrian

[Adrian V]

Thank you both for your replies, though I did have to look up whipstaff I'm sure that all the pertinent details have been carefully considered and it's great to hear how the boat will shape up as she (he?) develops.

Since you made the offer John..... You may have noticed that I have been having a dialogue with Howard Rice re Bufflehead and how it might compare with the Nautilus design. Howard muses how easy the transition might be from sailing to rowing and visa versa, especially on the water (in worsening weather?). Do you think this might be an issue, or will the Nautilus have heaps of stability to do this relatively easily?

How fast do you expect Nautilus to row/sail?

Would you care to give your thoughts re the differences between Nautilus and Bufflehead. I am not trying to start a vigorous debate here about the merits of the 2 designs, more an objective look at how they might differ in design and useage.

Would you consider Nautilus will be a (relatively) seaworthy example of a sailing canoe, i.e. what sort of winds might she be able to sail/row in?

Cheers,

Adrian

[keyhavenpotterer]

Adrian, we must not, absolutely must not, get involved in any kind of one canoe against another, please stay away from any hints of going in that direction.

Bufflehead, my Solway Dory Shearwater, are wonderful sailing canoes. Nautilus holds great promise too.

Let me explain a little where they come from.

The two great current day developers of sailing canoes are the US group with Hugh Horton, Howard and the Gougeons, and in the UK Solway Dory. In the US they have concentrated on 50:50 designs and in the UK more so on 100:20 if that makes sense. SD have concentrated on pure sailing with the ability still to single and double paddle when the wind drops. This means the US are working around 32/33" beam and the UK are at 40" beam. Remember that Solway Dory are making their living producing sailing canoe hulls and rigs, and they do nothing else.

I have owned three sailing canoe so far. Two SD boats and one Oughtred MacGregor. I have found both SD boats a pleasure to sail, easy to sail, lovely boats. My MacGregor, at 31" beam I found very unstable and very challenging to sail. She gave me an absolute beating one day and I sold her. So personally I am far happier with the wider beam, much more form stability style of hull.

When I compared last year at the Turks auction two sailing canoes from the same 1880's era, it was plain to see they were vastly different boats. One, the Nautilus had a powerful hull shape, real sailing carrying ability. The other a genuine original MacGregor was simply a kayak with a sail on it. The hull had no pretensions to sail carrying ability at all. Hence my dream of a new Nautilus from this 1880's bloodline.

I love Bufflehead, she is a wonderful design, it's just that I sail on the sea and a more stable boat will fit my needs better, prefer to row and am looking to sleep aboard. Don't forget also that John is an expert on rowing and I know the ergonomic set up will will be spot on, and that she will row very well indeed. When Howard comes to the UK next year we will have some wonderful fun sailing these designs together. What a test report that would make.

Brian

[David G]

Brian,

I very much look forward to that report!

[Adrian V]

Hi Brian,

I totally agree with you, these discussions should not deteriorate into a which canoe is best arguement as they obviously fill slightly different roles and I am just interested in which design would best meet my likely useage and environment. Like you I will be sailing in the sea and the south coast of Western Australia is traditionaly very windy and rough. I will be beach launching from a mostly lee shore and once out from the landing area, there are mostly cliffs and surf beaches i.e. not many places to land. I want to row for exercise and to get to where I need to go, sail, fish and generally have a good time, while still feeling safe (ish).

I add the ish as a white pointer bit and sunk a plastic fishing kayak here last year, so I would like to remain in the boat more often than out of it

It must be nerve racking presenting your baby to the wider world, but you need not worry, the design will be a cracker and my only interest is how this design and others will meet what I need, as outlined above and how the design differs from Bufflehead, not which one is best, as they are obviously designed with different priorities in mind.

Hope that's ok, I don't want to stir the pot here. Just so you know though, given my want to row, Nautilus is likely the better option for me........

Cheers,

Adrian

[john welsford]

I agree with the comment that we wont be going anywhere near making comparisons between this an other sailing canoes, its not my policy to make comparisons between my own work and that of others. But I will say in the context of this discussion that the word canoe means very different things on each side of the Atlantic. To an American a sailing canoe is small, slim boat, primarily a paddle driven craft with sail option. To those who know the boats espoused by the Humber Yawl Club in the UK during the late 1800s a sailing canoe is a much more substantial craft with room to sleep on board, stable enough to stand up in, burdensome enough to carry a huge amount of stores and equipment, in fact a small, decked cruising yacht with a "canoe" stern, two masts, and very shallow draft. As Brian says, one is a 50/50, the other is a 100% sailing boat with about 20% consideration to manual propulsion. I'm expecting to do better than that for rowing, but the whole hull is still designed to sail, and sail well.
Comparing the two is not apples for apples, they are vastly different. There is a little bit of information in this site here http://www.campionboats.co.uk/html/s...noe_yawls.html

John Welsford

John Welsford

Adrian, we must not, absolutely must not, get involved in any kind of one canoe against another, please stay away from any hints of going in that direction.

Bufflehead, my Solway Dory Shearwater, are wonderful sailing canoes. Nautilus holds great promise too.

Let me explain a little where they come from.

The two great current day developers of sailing canoes are the US group with Hugh Horton, Howard and the Gougeons, and in the UK Solway Dory. In the US they have concentrated on 50:50 designs and in the UK more so on 100:20 if that makes sense. SD have concentrated on pure sailing with the ability still to single and double paddle when the wind drops. This means the US are working around 32/33" beam and the UK are at 40" beam. Remember that Solway Dory are making their living producing sailing canoe hulls and rigs, and they do nothing else.

I have owned three sailing canoe so far. Two SD boats and one Oughtred MacGregor. I have found both SD boats a pleasure to sail, easy to sail, lovely boats. My MacGregor, at 31" beam I found very unstable and very challenging to sail. She gave me an absolute beating one day and I sold her. So personally I am far happier with the wider beam, much more form stability style of hull.

When I compared last year at the Turks auction two sailing canoes from the same 1880's era, it was plain to see they were vastly different boats. One, the Nautilus had a powerful hull shape, real sailing carrying ability. The other a genuine original MacGregor was simply a kayak with a sail on it. The hull had no pretensions to sail carrying ability at all. Hence my dream of a new Nautilus from this 1880's bloodline.

I love Bufflehead, she is a wonderful design, it's just that I sail on the sea and a more stable boat will fit my needs better, prefer to row and am looking to sleep aboard. Don't forget also that John is an expert on rowing and I know the ergonomic set up will will be spot on, and that she will row very well indeed. When Howard comes to the UK next year we will have some wonderful fun sailing these designs together. What a test report that would make.

Brian

[skuthorp]

I haven't contributed to this thred because I didn't seem to have much more to add than is here. But I have sailed a decked Oughtred Macgreggor for over 10 years now. She's tender without ballast or a crew, but loaded for touring is quite docile. My version has a single 55sq. ft. balanced lug sail, in retrospect a smaller main and a mizzen would have been a better choice. She is 32" at the widest point. There are several wrinkles re floatation and righting when flooded that are difficult. I think I'd try a different design if I built another. That said she's a boat for all seasons, I use her with a double paddle in surf, a single in small creeks and when fly fishing, and on flat winter mornings I row, she's very quick.
Single lee board and a dagger rudder thought often you can steer with the lee board and shifting in the boat. I have slept on board, brewed up on a tray that hooks on the cockpit combing, and a sort of tonneau cover and splash deflector keeps most water out when it's rough.

[keyhavenpotterer]

More on the Humber Yawls. There is a wonderful site for canoe yawls. http://www.canoeyawl.org/

and if you take a look at Cassy, a Humber Canoe yawl designed by George Holmes, you can see she is a burdonsome hull and set up for rowing. She is also 38" beam

http://www.canoeyawl.org/?p=433

[JotM]

... When Howard comes to the UK next year we will have some wonderful fun sailing these designs together. What a test report that would make.

What issue(s) of Woodenboat (and/or Water Craft Magazine) will that be in? I see a memorable evening coming up! ;-)

[Adrian V]

Hello John and Brian,

This is proving a somewhat difficult area to navigate; I seem to be steppng on toes, with every turn , when I really don't mean to. I am familiar with the Humber yawls and appreciate the difference between them and the typical American craft, I am just curious where Nautilus fits in in it's rejuvinated form. If it's along the lines of Cassy that gives me a better idea about what to expect, though I would imagine the rejuvinated Nautilus will probably sail and row better?

Comparisons aside, how fast might the Nautilus might be expected to row/sail and how difficult do you expect the transition from rowing to sailing to be?

Cheers,

Adrian

[Hwyl]

Adrian, I think you need to buy the plans and build one.

[rasmusmoller65]

I am in love with sailing canoes, and I can't wait to see this one built and sailed.
Will it become spacious enough to bring along your wife for daysailing instead of supplies and other equipment?

godspeed

Rasmus

[Howard Rice]

Hi John
As to the 50/50 handle used for some sailing canoes. I have always been a bit confused by the term. I am an American canoe person but do not live in the US. I have lived abroad for most of my adult life yet am part of the think tank on a canoe form that emanates from the US, hmm guess this makes me an expat (caught in the middle) sailing canoe hybrid.

To those who know the boats espoused by the Humber Yawl Club in the UK during the late 1800s a sailing canoe is a much more substantial craft with room to sleep on board, stable enough to stand up in, burdensome enough to carry a huge amount of stores and equipment, in fact a small, decked cruising yacht with a "canoe" stern, two masts, and very shallow draft.

As to beam, burdensome enough to carry a huge amount of stores, room to sleep in, stable enough to stand up in, two masts, a small decked cruising yacht and shallow......my taste in sailing canoes is just about the description you give above except for the burdensome part and the canoe stern part. I approach the challenge of developing sailing canoes for cruising with the theory of shaving away everything extraneous in both design and what gear I bring. With this statement I mean I go for minimalist everything as any small boat cruiser should. Taking this minimalist approach means I prefer narrow canoes as opposed to bigger, heavier canoes. I like nimble but nimble does not mean so nimble as to be a drama queen taxing me at every turn trying to keep her upright. Nimble means a balance between nimble in performance yet stable enough to sleep in, stand up, etc measured against narrow enough to double paddle effectively etc. This is because I prefer to double or single paddle instead of rowing. So far so good, Sylph has out performed on every one of my expectations, mainly the feeling of stability I get from her. As to load carrying ability I can load her beyond reason and sometimes when going offshore I fill her with air bags and do a little deck loading, which has never been an issue. Below is another photo of her loaded for an open ocean passage to Pakin Atoll. Yes running lights just for getting out of the harbor here in Pohnpei. I am the only sailing craft around and a tiny one at that so I have to be very careful not to be run over by local power skiffs (around dusk or dawn), which never seem to keep watch. Once at sea I remove them. Out here in the western Pacific there is simply no ship or boat traffic just wide open wilderness, sobering once at sea in such a small boat but always feeling secure because of the stability factor and the knowledge I can self rescue because I have set her up and tested all manners of self rescue. I end up sailing a diminutive pocket yacht in the form of a sailing canoe.

Here is a sleep aboard shot and a stand up and sail shot. I often stand and sail to stretch legs, see where I am going in a tight spot such as channels or entering a big boat marina filled with towers of (ridiculously large) power boats. When I need to see ahead I simply unhook one of the tillers from its self steering set up and stand up, there is never much drama about this given my 33" beam.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][

The sliding decks I have designed and constructed allow for a very roomy sleep aboard when pushed forward and aft. I also sit on the aft deck at times with feet in the cockpit when sailing downwind. I do this again for comfort, to read a book, have lunch, repair something etc.
Given that my canoe Sylph comes in at a whopping 52 pounds empty and about 70 with rig, flotation, etc I think she meets my minimalist approach quite well. Now that I am finishing off my new canoe (a Bufflehead hull) I aim for even better performance sailing, sleeping aboard. Like Sylph my new canoe to be christened Fayaway will also feature three mast steps or locations. I built two identical carbon fiber luff groove masts and two mains for Sylph (plus one roller furling jib) for Sylph and Fayaway will have the same. I can then sail her in several different configurations with potential sail area at just over 90 sq feet (I know that sounds like allot, it is and is only for very light air sailing). Her smallest rig set up has her sailing as a cat rig with just under 32 sq feet of sail on one mast.

So thanks for reading from a hybrid (likes his canoes light and narrow) who appreciates the comfort, load carrying ability, sleep aboard ability, stand up ability, speed under sail and paddle of the modern sailing canoe. I don't advocate one type over another or argue about boat types of designs. To each his/her own. The point is to get in a small wooden boat and get on the water. I am very pleased to have made the decision to ship one of my two canoes to England in early 2012 so that I can as the hybrid American canoe sailor share info and swap boats with folks like Brian Pearson and the Solway Dory folks who have offered to receive and store my canoe until I arrive. The idea being to share knowledge and not to espouse one type over another. I look forward to learning a great deal as I sail in England and then set off to cross the channel to Europe. Why not! Life is short and my interest in what I refer to as "Pocket Yachts" allows me to sail afar at a fraction of the cost and worry of owning a large sailing yacht. Been there, done that, what a hassle in general.
Apologies as always for the long winded posting.

[john welsford]

Howard, no apologies needed, your posting deserves thanks from me for a well put description of your preferences and how you came about them .
One of the things that we should think about in the context of the Humber Yawl club and the boats that evolved under their aegis, is that those were Victorian times, pre the common use of the motor car. The Humber yawls were usually carried on handcarts when transported for short distances, horse and cart for medium distances and in the baggage car on rail for longer hauls. The boats grew until they hit the maximum practical size and weight for that means of getting them to the water of their choice which, until the influence of the international racing class sailing canoe is where they stayed in size and style. The original Nautilus canoe of Baden Powell being a good example of the type.
In this case I have a client with a particular set of needs and the bigger more stable "sit in" open water capable boat will much extend his sailing years so we're designing to suit a body thats much higher mileage than yours.
I much admire and appreciate your minimalist approach, am sure Ive much to learn from you and am very much looking forward to meeting up next month and hopefully having time to talk about this and other small boat cruising subjects.
If you are going to be trying out this little boat next year, I'd better keep that pencil moving eh!


John Welsford

Hi John
As to the 50/50 handle used for some sailing canoes. I have always been a bit confused by the term. I am an American canoe person but do not live in the US. I have lived abroad for most of my adult life yet am part of the think tank on a canoe form that emanates from the US, hmm guess this makes me an expat (caught in the middle) sailing canoe hybrid.



As to beam, burdensome enough to carry a huge amount of stores, room to sleep in, stable enough to stand up in, two masts, a small decked cruising yacht and shallow......my taste in sailing canoes is just about the description you give above except for the burdensome part and the canoe stern part. I approach the challenge of developing sailing canoes for cruising with the theory of shaving away everything extraneous in both design and what gear I bring. With this statement I mean I go for minimalist everything as any small boat cruiser should. Taking this minimalist approach means I prefer narrow canoes as opposed to bigger, heavier canoes. I like nimble but nimble does not mean so nimble as to be a drama queen taxing me at every turn trying to keep her upright. Nimble means a balance between nimble in performance yet stable enough to sleep in, stand up, etc measured against narrow enough to double paddle effectively etc. This is because I prefer to double or single paddle instead of rowing. So far so good, Sylph has out performed on every one of my expectations, mainly the feeling of stability I get from her. As to load carrying ability I can load her beyond reason and sometimes when going offshore I fill her with air bags and do a little deck loading, which has never been an issue. Below is another photo of her loaded for an open ocean passage to Pakin Atoll. Yes running lights just for getting out of the harbor here in Pohnpei. I am the only sailing craft around and a tiny one at that so I have to be very careful not to be run over by local power skiffs (around dusk or dawn), which never seem to keep watch. Once at sea I remove them. Out here in the western Pacific there is simply no ship or boat traffic just wide open wilderness, sobering once at sea in such a small boat but always feeling secure because of the stability factor and the knowledge I can self rescue because I have set her up and tested all manners of self rescue. I end up sailing a diminutive pocket yacht in the form of a sailing canoe.

Here is a sleep aboard shot and a stand up and sail shot. I often stand and sail to stretch legs, see where I am going in a tight spot such as channels or entering a big boat marina filled with towers of (ridiculously large) power boats. When I need to see ahead I simply unhook one of the tillers from its self steering set up and stand up, there is never much drama about this given my 33" beam.

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][/IMG]

[IMG][

The sliding decks I have designed and constructed allow for a very roomy sleep aboard when pushed forward and aft. I also sit on the aft deck at times with feet in the cockpit when sailing downwind. I do this again for comfort, to read a book, have lunch, repair something etc.
Given that my canoe Sylph comes in at a whopping 52 pounds empty and about 70 with rig, flotation, etc I think she meets my minimalist approach quite well. Now that I am finishing off my new canoe (a Bufflehead hull) I aim for even better performance sailing, sleeping aboard. Like Sylph my new canoe to be christened Fayaway will also feature three mast steps or locations. I built two identical carbon fiber luff groove masts and two mains for Sylph (plus one roller furling jib) for Sylph and Fayaway will have the same. I can then sail her in several different configurations with potential sail area at just over 90 sq feet (I know that sounds like allot, it is and is only for very light air sailing). Her smallest rig set up has her sailing as a cat rig with just under 32 sq feet of sail on one mast.

So thanks for reading from a hybrid (likes his canoes light and narrow) who appreciates the comfort, load carrying ability, sleep aboard ability, stand up ability, speed under sail and paddle of the modern sailing canoe. I don't advocate one type over another or argue about boat types of designs. To each his/her own. The point is to get in a small wooden boat and get on the water. I am very pleased to have made the decision to ship one of my two canoes to England in early 2012 so that I can as the hybrid American canoe sailor share info and swap boats with folks like Brian Pearson and the Solway Dory folks who have offered to receive and store my canoe until I arrive. The idea being to share knowledge and not to espouse one type over another. I look forward to learning a great deal as I sail in England and then set off to cross the channel to Europe. Why not! Life is short and my interest in what I refer to as "Pocket Yachts" allows me to sail afar at a fraction of the cost and worry of owning a large sailing yacht. Been there, done that, what a hassle in general.
Apologies as always for the long winded posting.

[Howard Rice]

Hey John
I'd like to say we have like minds but that would be wrong from the get go. You have far more sailing/technical knowledge than I.
I am always interested to read what you write and as you know look carefully at what you design.

Seems that we are again on the same page as to what makes for a good small boat. Don't be disappointed when we hook up in Port Townsend as I doubt I have much I can offer from my rather narrow perspective on boats. I am very happy that we will have the opportunity to meet up and even have the chance to sail together. Could be dangerous as we will likely start talking new designs and wasting coffee shop napkins sketching ideas! I know a great place for decent coffee and free napkins.

When do you arrive? Where are you staying?
I am in San Francisco at the St Francis yacht Club for a presentation on the 7th and fly in to Seattle that night arriving early the morning of the 8th in Port Townsend. I am staying with my proa pal Russell Brown. I will likely be staying aboard his proa Jzerro. How about we hook up at the Small Craft Advisor booth?

I know your Nautilus client (he and I talk by skype when we can) and you are right on about what he needs. Brian is a highly accomplished small boat sailor/racer who is looking for the very attributes your design based on Nautilus can offer (although I fear I may not be able to pry him out of the cockpit of my canoe when we hook up in GB next year).

I have always been fascinated by the late 1800's sailing canoes from both the US and Great Britain. Fascinated may be bit to shallow, actually possessed by the type might sum up a bit more accurately. I have borrowed freely from those who long ago penned sailing canoes because they were such interesting and capable boats. The borrowing part has manifested itself in the yawl/cat/sloop option I have with Sylph, the sleep aboard/cook aboard element and even the ability to trailer my canoe to and from the water. I designed and built a very light trailer for my canoe, which works quite well.

In some small way I see my shipping a canoe to Great Britain next year as a rebirth of the long ago era of cross Atlantic canoe sailing get togethers from the late 1800's. I hope it can usher in a new era in exchange of ideas and back and forth between two very interesting schools of thought on sailing canoe design. Your mention of the automobile is interesting. I happen to think the advent of the automobile and even bicycles in some way signaled the end of the classic era of canoe sailing.

So across the pond I go next year to push the canoe linkages. Now how do we get you super sailor Kiwis in the mix? I have close friends living in Christchurch and Wellington and both have twisted my arm more than once to come to NZ. I only have two arms and figure you may do some twisting when we meet up in a month. Scary to visit NZ though as I may be so entranced by the beauty and sailing that I will have to uproot my dear long suffering wife Keiko and move there from our life in Micronesia and Japan. Oh I didn't mention she is just as interested in NZ as I am.
Best,
howard

[skuthorp]

I thought you might be interested in this image of a ROB ROY with a sail taken about 1900 on a sheep station in SE Australia. It's hard to tell but the paddle may be of the Greenland pattern.

[john welsford]

Like minds indeed, and we have many thoughts in common about small boat cruising and we've come to those from very different experiences. It will be very interesting comparing notes on that, and lots of other subjects.
I'm looking forward too, to meeting Russell Brown, we had a couple of his proa designs cruising in NZ a couple of years back and I found them fascinating.
If you want to know more about New Zealand from a Japanese outsiders point of view, give me a shout off forum and I'll flick you CHarlie Whipples email addy. He lived with us for 2 years while he built his boat, an American with Japanese Wife, lives in Japan, found New Zealand a very interesing place.

John Welsford

Hey John
I'd like to say we have like minds but that would be wrong from the get go. You have far more sailing/technical knowledge than I.
I am always interested to read what you write and as you know look carefully at what you design.

Seems that we are again on the same page as to what makes for a good small boat. Don't be disappointed when we hook up in Port Townsend as I doubt I have much I can offer from my rather narrow perspective on boats. I am very happy that we will have the opportunity to meet up and even have the chance to sail together. Could be dangerous as we will likely start talking new designs and wasting coffee shop napkins sketching ideas! I know a great place for decent coffee and free napkins.

When do you arrive? Where are you staying?
I am in San Francisco at the St Francis yacht Club for a presentation on the 7th and fly in to Seattle that night arriving early the morning of the 8th in Port Townsend. I am staying with my proa pal Russell Brown. I will likely be staying aboard his proa Jzerro. How about we hook up at the Small Craft Advisor booth?

I know your Nautilus client (he and I talk by skype when we can) and you are right on about what he needs. Brian is a highly accomplished small boat sailor/racer who is looking for the very attributes your design based on Nautilus can offer (although I fear I may not be able to pry him out of the cockpit of my canoe when we hook up in GB next year).

I have always been fascinated by the late 1800's sailing canoes from both the US and Great Britain. Fascinated may be bit to shallow, actually possessed by the type might sum up a bit more accurately. I have borrowed freely from those who long ago penned sailing canoes because they were such interesting and capable boats. The borrowing part has manifested itself in the yawl/cat/sloop option I have with Sylph, the sleep aboard/cook aboard element and even the ability to trailer my canoe to and from the water. I designed and built a very light trailer for my canoe, which works quite well.

In some small way I see my shipping a canoe to Great Britain next year as a rebirth of the long ago era of cross Atlantic canoe sailing get togethers from the late 1800's. I hope it can usher in a new era in exchange of ideas and back and forth between two very interesting schools of thought on sailing canoe design. Your mention of the automobile is interesting. I happen to think the advent of the automobile and even bicycles in some way signaled the end of the classic era of canoe sailing.

So across the pond I go next year to push the canoe linkages. Now how do we get you super sailor Kiwis in the mix? I have close friends living in Christchurch and Wellington and both have twisted my arm more than once to come to NZ. I only have two arms and figure you may do some twisting when we meet up in a month. Scary to visit NZ though as I may be so entranced by the beauty and sailing that I will have to uproot my dear long suffering wife Keiko and move there from our life in Micronesia and Japan. Oh I didn't mention she is just as interested in NZ as I am.
Best,
howard

[keyhavenpotterer]

I happen to think the advent of the automobile and even bicycles in some way signaled the end of the classic era of canoe sailing.
Howard

Spot on Howard. I read, cannot quite remember where, that it was the invention of the safety bicycle that ended the sailing canoe era. All the young adventurers took up the exciting new cycling sport to travel far and wide.

Brian

[skaraborgcraft]

although we have not made the decision yet to replace the old folkboat with either the JW whaler or the TS16, having read this thread,im getting that overboated feeling again.......

[PeterSibley]

Nautilus is certainly inspiring but my small craft sailing skills are inadequate to her needs ,I'd need to be much better I'm afraid .

[keyhavenpotterer]

how difficult do you expect the transition from rowing to sailing to be?Cheers,Adrian

I have checked with John and he expects the transition to be very quick, a matter of seconds.

John has already said that the rowing thwart slides forward and flips up to store against the forward bulkhead. The oars stow alongside the cockpit sides on the floor. When rowing, the rear hatch is open and your feet are braced just inside the hatch, with the rear seat folded flat.

So the transition is flip up rear seat back, stow oars, push sliding thwart forward and store. Then normal sailing procedures. The main stows alongside the foredeck/side-deck, so is rigged and ready. Rudder downhaul/uphaul is led forward as on my current canoe.

Please appreciate the John is designing the hull just now, and the concepts while clear are not drawn in detail yet.

Perhaps if you are rowing off a surf beach, then you might well have the mizzen set, have the thwart in a fixed position using a pinstop, main stored on the deck. Row hard through the surf, then raise and set the main, pivot board down, pull rudder downhaul, get sailing then sail away sitting on the thwart or store it forward as described.

As John says, it should be quick and straight forward.
Brian

[Adrian V]

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the information. I can't quite picture what you mean though? Does that mean that water can flood into the rear hatch if the boat were to capsise when rowing?

I can just picture myself rowing off the beach and along the coast until I've warmed up and then raising the main and feeling that buzz as the boat accelerates away

Bloody brilliant,

Adrian

[john welsford]

That "hatch" really just opens to a covered open space, like a coaming with a roof over. The fully enclosed part is further aft leaving enough space to stretch out lying down,
If you look at the pic above, about half of the raised deck area between the cockpit and the mizzen is hinged to fold back on itself, thats the "hatch" we're talking about.

John Welsford

Hi Brian,

Thanks for the information. I can't quite picture what you mean though? Does that mean that water can flood into the rear hatch if the boat were to capsise when rowing?

I can just picture myself rowing off the beach and along the coast until I've warmed up and then raising the main and feeling that buzz as the boat accelerates away

Bloody brilliant,

Adrian

[Adrian V]

Got it, thanks John.

[Hesp]

I've been having an email conversation with Brian about a boat like this for some time, and I think it would help avoid confusion if Nautilus was called a canoe yawl rather than a sailing canoe. The term "sailing canoe" implies a canoe that can sail, but I don't think a Nautilus sans masts can be called a canoe. After all, it's more likely to be rowed than paddled when the wind drops. The link Brian gives higher up this thread gives the clue - www.canoeyawl.org

John

[keyhavenpotterer]

Interesting post John.

My gut feeling is that since the original Nautilus is the inspiration for this design, both in her form and her use as a cruising canoe - then it seems to make the best connection to call the new design, Nautilus, a Sailing Canoe. I am aware that the very words " sailing canoe" seem to strike most yachtsmen with fear and trepidation and that "canoe yawl" might be a less terrifying handle.

Since I picked up my first every reading glasses today - yes, more and more decrepit every day - I thought I would try them out on my son's copy of Dixon Kemp's "Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing". It turns out that it says a lot on the subject of what is a canoe yawl and what is a sailing canoe. It seems the need to separate what was what even happened in the 1880's. This huge tome 600 pages long, has over 90 pages on sailing canoes and canoe yawls.

Here's how they separated the designs.

Definition of a canoe yawl -

beam not less than 3'
Rating which was ( LWL x sail area)/(6000) not to exceed 0.5

Cruising Canoe

Any keel, centreplate, or ballast can be removable
Maximum length not to exceed 16'
Beam not over 42"
Rating (LWL x sail area)/(6000) not to exceed 0.3

Sailing Canoe for racing
Length not to exceed 16'
Beam not to exceed 36"
Rating not to exceed 0.3

Paddling canoe
Not to exceed 16' long.
Beam greater than 26"

These definitions, imply the canoe yawl can be longer than 16', have greater beam, can have fixed ballast and has the larger sail area to length ratio that implies fixed ballast. This backs up my feeling that the canoe yawl is a larger boat than the sailing canoe. If it has a beam between 36" and 42" it could be either, unless it has fixed ballast which makes it a canoe yawl, or it's Rating is between 0.3 and 0.5

That the cruising canoe has to be no more than 16', has a limited beam that must be less than 42" and have removable ballast.

Checking our new Nautilus cruising design, she meets the length criteria, the beam criteria and the removable ballast criteria.

Working out her "Rating" I make it (15.0 x 60)/(6000) = 0.15 so she is well inside the cruising sailing canoe definition ( less than 0.3) from 1880!!

We honestly set out to design a new Nautilus Sailing Canoe in spirit and in her use. I think it's a super result that she meets the original 1880's technical definition and specification of a "cruising sailing canoe".

The edition of Kemp's I have here is the 8th Edition, revised by John Leather. Here's what he says about sailing canoes -

"These were one man craft in which the hoisting, lowering and sheeting of sails and working of rudder and centreboard were carried out by the canoeist seated in teh cockpit. These little craft were used for cruising fairly long distances under sail. With craft of a new design in hull and rigs and built with the advantage of contemporary materials, it is an outlook and type of craft which should flourish again."

Here, here to John Leather's words and lets make them come true.

There is an online version of Kemps if you want to read more about Nautilus and sailing canoes from the 1880's. It is a different edition but worth looking through.

http://www.archive.org/stream/amanualyachtand00kempgoog#page/n492/mode/2up/search/nautilus


Brian

[Hesp]

"I am aware that the very words " sailing canoe" seem to strike most yachtsmen with fear and trepidation and that "canoe yawl" might be a less terrifying handle."

I don't think it's that Brian, it's just that some of us (myself included as you know) got the wrong end of the stick when introduced to this boat. A boat that will allow me to stand on the gunwale is a very different boat to my preconceived idea of a sailing canoe, but maybe that's just my preconceived ideas that were wrong. As it says on the CanoeYawl site - "When I use a word it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less" - Lewis Carroll.

Thanks for the link to Dixon Kemp too, I'll be interested to have a look at that.

"Since I picked up my first every reading glasses today....."

Five years ahead of you there Brian........

John

[PeterSibley]

Thanks for that link ! Much appreciated .

Glasses since I was 5 !

[Daniel Noyes]

Here is a first view of this new design from John Welsford. She is 15'5" x 38", 60 sq ft, her forward and aft hatches lift to form either end of a sleeping tent for overnighting aboard. She is also set up for sliding thwart rowing with short folding outriggers. Built from 4mm ply with 5 planks per side. She will have approx 250 litres of buoyancy and will be stable enough to climb aboard when swamped. She has twin assymetric bilgeboards which pierce through the side decks to keep any water out of the cockpit. The boards will be weighted and there is also a water ballast tank to keep her nice and stable for us older sailors. The cockpit has lots of storage to hand as well as storage in the end tanks. She is reefable from the cockpit, the mainsail stows on the decks for rowing and sleeping aboard.

Sailing canoes were hugely popular in the 1880's and the Nautilus line of canoes by Baden-Powell were at the forefront of development. Ever since I stood next to a Nautilus last year and saw how full bodied and powerful it's hull shape was, I have dreamed of a new Nautilus, a proper cruising canoe designed for modern epoxy ply construction. I am just so pleased that John accepted my commission for this new Nautilus.

I do hope you like her, and with some trepidation ask for your comments.....

(She sold for £6000/ $10000. She didn't have her rig, so dad couldn't see that).

Warrington Baden-Powell didn't use outriggers.... just saying...

Seen here is Nautilus at the 1886 International Cup races held off Grindstone Island, St. Lawrence River, New York, USA.

1.

I'm looking from Nautilus to the new boat and wondering about specific design choices.

Nautilus has a plumb bow with a distinctive radius and drag to the keel, the new design lacks this rather distinctive stem profile.
N. carries her main mast very far forward creating a distinctive look, the new design is farther aft
Deck hatches, rudder style, heavy center board, sheer line, all do not seem to echo the rather extreme and distinctive lines of the original Nautilus...
I guess I'm wondering why call this new design Nautilus? other than it was the original Nautilus that got you interested in sailing canoes.

second question, why not build a reproduction of the original?

[coucal]

I'm looking from Nautilus to the new boat and wondering about specific design choices.

Nautilus has a plumb bow with a distinctive radius and drag to the keel, the new design lacks this rather distinctive stem profile.
N. carries her main mast very far forward creating a distinctive look, the new design is farther aft
Deck hatches, rudder style, heavy center board, sheer line, all do not seem to echo the rather extreme and distinctive lines of the original Nautilus...
I guess I'm wondering why call this new design Nautilus? other than it was the original Nautilus that got you interested in sailing canoes.

Looks like Mr Baden-Powell designed at least 3 variations on the Nautilus theme.

The first Nautilus canoe in the copy of Kemps' Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing in Brian's link (plate XXXVII, undated) shows a mainmast location similar to Mr Welsford's version, The second version (plate XXXVIII, date 1879) shows a very different stem radius, mast location and draggy keel, and the third version (plate XXXIX, date 1880) shows a very different arrangement again, so there's obviously some room for variation within the species. (I like the idea of a new boat upgrade every year or so, too)

On pp408 Kemps' Manual of Yacht and Boat Sailing it says ...it would be patent to all canoeists that succeeding Rob Roy and Nautilus canoes have been built widely differing from their predecessors, and also that many craft, taking points from each, have sprung into existence, and claimed a type title of their own".

I like the idea of a 'type' being revived, for modern materials, details and conditions. Aside from the practicailities of the upgrade, I imagine it's a nice intellectual/ creative challenge, for both designer & client. Call it an "act of artistic patronage", and you also get a nice boat out of it at the end...?

[keyhavenpotterer]

coucal, thanks, you put the case well for the nautilus line being a development of a number of designs. I think there may have been one per year, how else could the boats develop. That we need to use the inspiration and use of these boats from their heyday to design sailing canoes using modern technology and materials - just as Baden-Powell would be doing now if he were still with us.
The reason to use the Nautilus "brand name" is to give a direct hook to the history, design and bloodline of these wonderful cruising canoes. Ian Oughtred's MacGregors are his own design but direct descendants of the original MacGregors. We are simply doing the same, linking strongly to powerful hull shapes and great adventure sailing possibilities.

As coucal points out, where would the intellectual challenge be in simply choosing one particular Nautilus and building it.

Would be fun though to sail the new with the old. The Nautilus that sold at auction last year is only about 15 miles away from me, lets hope we sail the Beaulieu River together one day.

Brian

[obscured by clouds]

Thanks for that link ! Much appreciated .

Second that, and thankfully I have a Kindle so have downloaded the whole tome.

[PeterSibley]

Second that, and thankfully I have a Kindle so have downloaded the whole tome.

It's a little confusing ,I downloaded it as a pdf and the index and the page numbers don't match .No plates and a lot of the drawings aren't there .The text is excellent though and lots of cunning canoe sailing ideas !

[keyhavenpotterer]

andre on the Uk Song of the Paddle Forum has kindly provided me with the link to the Stephens book on line. This seems to have the plates as well. Offsets too.

http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/

Brian

[earling2]

What's the decking material on that victorian canoe? Sure does look like plywood, but it can't be. OR is it? Veneers glued together to cold mold the deck? 1/4" clear cedar or spruce planks? Curious . . . .

[PeterSibley]

andre on the Uk Song of the Paddle Forum has kindly provided me with the link to the Stephens book on line. This seems to have the plates as well. Offsets too.

http://dragonflycanoe.com/stephens/

Brian

Thank you Brian ,even lines and offsets for the lovely Iris !

[keyhavenpotterer]

Have been re-reading Canoe Travelling by Warington Baden Powell. It's a great read and really evokes the spirit of the times covering the log of a cruise on the Baltic and advice on building and using sailing canoes. It's not an expensive book (£8) and a pleasure to own,

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Canoe-travelling-practical-building-fitting/dp/B00086KNLC

Again it's available to read on-line http://www.archive.org/stream/canoet...ge/n8/mode/2up and can be downloaded as a pdf.

http://openlibrary.org/works/OL7845256W/Canoe_travelling

[obscured by clouds]

It's a little confusing ,I downloaded it as a pdf and the index and the page numbers don't match .No plates and a lot of the drawings aren't there .The text is excellent though and lots of cunning canoe sailing ideas !

I've since looked at the doc and have the same problem... for some reason I can't downloed the EPUB or MOBI versions. ho hum.

[Sailing Dreams]

Brian,

Well done to you and John on a great update on the sailing canoe, the ability to row and sail makes for a very versatile boat. For those forum members who aren't based on the Solent the significance of being able to put the boat on the roof rack for a trip to France might not be apparent, the ability to take a craft on the Morbihan, Holland, alpine lakes without the cost complexity of a trailer ... is very appealing. Closer to home she looks perfect for sailing around your end of the Solent.

Max

[keyhavenpotterer]

Thanks Max, it's great to hear positive responses to our project - it does really help. Just to clarify for everyone, John and I discussed car topping and trailering and resolved things in the following way. The target of singlehanded car-topping for when you sail locally really takes some doing. It has to be very light and even then the 16' hull takes some handling alone. Add decks and it gets hard to get a grip. So we soon realised a lightweight trailer will be simpler and easier for singlehanding locally.

However, as Max points out, cross channel trips would be very expensive towing a trailer. So, at 38" wide we have ensured she will fit our roof rack maximum widths, my Kari-Tek can load up to 40" maximim beam. So for cross channel trips, we would load using two people ( the poor wife I guess) and then when arriving at the Morbihan, would unload with local helms who have also come to the meet. This arrangement would also make sense when storing at a club dinghy park. Take her down to the dinghy park and the use a lightweight trolley to launch her during the season. Then home again on the roof.

Hope this makes sense.

On the "Interesting turn of the century canoes" thread davebrown posted a nice picture of a decked canoe being rowed. It is just how, with sliding thwart and short outriggers, I envisage winter rowing from Keyhaven. Thanks davebrown.

[PeterSibley]

Brian ,at some stage I have seen a simple and cunning device for loading a lightish boat onto roof racks .I can't find it but it was essentially two long and light ramps with pivoting stops.They hang vertically but if pushed forward flatten then swing up again but will not fall back past vertical .

The user places the boat at the bottom then alternately swings bow then stern uphill until she is there . You can stop to rest as needed .

What I can't remember is how the unloading mechanism works .I suppose you would hold the boat away and push down the lever in a slightly inelegant reverse of loading .

[keyhavenpotterer]

Hi Peter, yes, that's a Kari-Tek roof loading system. I have one and they work very well indeed. It means I only have to lift the hull about two feet from the trollley and turn the hull 90 degrees on her side and she is loaded. However, that is ok with a 13' open MacGregor which is very light and easily gripped gunnel. With my decked 16' sailing canoe it's just very hard to lift her turn her without worrying that I will drop her. So I usually find some help - then the simple lift and turn her is very easy and safe to achieve.

Hence our thinking, a light trailer for frequent use singlehanded, or a Kari-Tek or similar for occasional use. There was a old wooden version of this in a popular mechanics magazine but I have lost the link to it.

http://www.karitek.co.uk/ELRRIntroMulti.html

<a href="http://www.karitek.co.uk/ELRRIntroMulti.html">

[PeterSibley]

Ahhh ! As usual I have described my idea badly !

This was actually home made ,just two long pieces of timber with the pivoting 'mechanisms' I mentioned hooked onto the carry rack at the top ,sitting on the ground at the bottom .As I remember ,about 10ft long .

[maraíocht]

This, perhaps?

http://web.mac.com/robertwagenvoort/...op_Lift.html#1

lyle

[PeterSibley]

No , I think what I saw was some chap's home built own idea .

[aldebaran]

Could it be this one
http://www.pbase.com/onceagain/cartopper

[keyhavenpotterer]

John just sent through his body plan drawing for Nautilus. With John's permission here it is. John is now starting full size drawings.

[aldebaran]

why tumblehome... Its something I´ve never really liked. You loose reserve bouyancy when heeling, and you scratch your topsides and not the outwale when alongside a pier, another boat or whatever. I know because I have small yacht with tumblehome.
On canoes you want to paddle, it makes sense because it gives you a better angle for the paddle. On a boat like this, I cant see any advantage. But maybe I´m an ignorant, so please explain.

[keyhavenpotterer]

I will have a go, but I am 100% sure John can explain fully. A friend has also been questioning the tumblehome so I have spent a while studying the lines.

Here goes. Take a piece of paper or a tape measure and place the lower edge onto the lines plan. Place it from the centreline of the keel and go 5 squares left and four square up on the left hand side of the plan. The edge of the paper/tape should go from the keel to the top left corner of the square 5 left and 4 up and just go through the gunnel. This also covers the shear line.

Now, imagine that this angled edge is horizontal. This represents a heel angle of just under 40 degrees, with the gunnel just clear of the water. Lean your head to the right to see the line horizontal and look at the hull shape underneath that line. Magically there is no tumblehome, simply a maximum stability U shape giving the maximum support to the heeled boat. There is terrific buoyancy right under the gunnel.

This is how, to my eyes at least, John is working to provide terrific secondary stabilty. The kind that John has said will support a medium weight helm standing on the gunnel and the stabilty to recover and climb back aboard after a capsize. What a terrific target to aim for, maximum support just as the gunnel comes down to the water level, allowing the helm to roll back aboard over the minimum height of the gunnel above the water level.

That's my reading, hope John may come along soon to give his reasoning.


Brian

According to 'old school' designs, tumblehome also keeps the decks clear of water when the boats healed, reducing required freeboard by the equivalent of a plank. This reduces windage and the oarlock height: important for rowing.

Ed