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Thread: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

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    Default New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Here is a first view of this new design from John Welsford. She is 15'5" x 38", 60 sq ft, her forward and aft hatches lift to form either end of a sleeping tent for overnighting aboard. She is also set up for sliding thwart rowing with short folding outriggers. Built from 4mm ply with 5 planks per side. She will have approx 250 litres of buoyancy and will be stable enough to climb aboard when swamped. She has twin assymetric bilgeboards which pierce through the side decks to keep any water out of the cockpit. The boards will be weighted and there is also a water ballast tank to keep her nice and stable for us older sailors. The cockpit has lots of storage to hand as well as storage in the end tanks. She is reefable from the cockpit, the mainsail stows on the decks for rowing and sleeping aboard.

    Sailing canoes were hugely popular in the 1880's and the Nautilus line of canoes by Baden-Powell were at the forefront of development. Ever since I stood next to a Nautilus last year and saw how full bodied and powerful it's hull shape was, I have dreamed of a new Nautilus, a proper cruising canoe designed for modern epoxy ply construction. I am just so pleased that John accepted my commission for this new Nautilus.

    I do hope you like her, and with some trepidation ask for your comments.....

    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 07-29-2011 at 03:29 AM.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    great. New design. Just on paper at this stage is it? looking forward to seeing more of that on. The would be John's first sliding seat and it interests me.
    zane

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    A canoe yawl ! Great ,she looks perfect ! But how competent a small boat sailor would someone need to be to stay vertical in her ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Zane Lewis View Post
    great. New design. Just on paper at this stage is it? looking forward to seeing more of that on. The would be John's first sliding seat and it interests me.
    zane
    John is drawing her right now, and really needs to be completed before he goes off to the US, so plans are not far away. the sliding thwart is a natural for this design. The thwart has to move forwards and backwards to clear the way for sleeping, so it's a very small addition to let her roll the small distance that's needed for the legs to bend - between 12 ans 16 inches is all that is needed. I enjoy rowing much more with added skill needed and extra power supplied by using my legs.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by PeterSibley View Post
    A canoe yawl ! Great ,she looks perfect ! But how competent a small boat sailor would someone need to be to stay vertical in her ?
    I too thinks she looks great - really sweet - John will be pleased to hear these positive reactions. The whole point of this design is that she takes her blood lines from the heavy full bodied powerful forms of the 1880's Nautilus designs. John is exactly the right designer to produce such a hull form for a new Nautilus. She has water ballast and weighted bilge boards so I think we have done as much as possible in the planning to make a predictable handling boat. We are just going to have to get her on the water and let people try her.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Congrats Brian, and well done John. She looks great. My only question is with such a narrow beam,are the two bilge boards absolutely neccessary? What with Scamp and Walkabout having just the one.....im curious. I can understand the system in a Fairy Atlanta,but in such a wee boat im not so sure. Was this a design requirement?

    I can see someone is going to have a huge grin all next summer. Cheers

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Probably not, but what great upwind performance from a well submerged assymetric board!!

    I described to John how well my sailing canoe went upwind on port tack with the starboard mounted leeboard well immersed. Not as good on the other tack, especially when short tacking in strong tide. Also being surface piercing they catch floating weed badly, much more than immersed boards in the same conditions.

    Since we are wanting really good sailing performance, when John suggested twin assymetric boards how could I refuse. Will be fun trying an assymetric foil upwind. I think they will also be useful when sailing downwind. Both boards half down should help steady her when sailing off the wind. In fact it's downwind that is the least stable for long thin hulls such as these, so I think the twin boards might work out well.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 07-29-2011 at 11:55 AM.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Thanks Brian, you made my morning.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Brian she looks like a real cracker ! Definitely something interesting to build when my SCAMP is done. What sort of dry weight has John estimated for her, will she be a car topper ? I presume the rudder will have foot controls like a Klepper or will you just have hand lines around the cockpit ? Keep us posted on how she develops.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Glad you like her John. I think she will be about 45kg, but that's just my guess. The car top issue was one of the very early discussions. Any 16' x 38" hull is a handful to control even if very light on your own. Add structure to control hull twist imposed by the rig and she quickly starts to weight more than say a very light canvas decked canoe. So we agreed to go for a boat which would be a very light trailer boat, very easy to move around,launch and launch off a beach alone . I think I can still car top her if crossing to France to save ferry costs, two people lifting on and off the roofrack, but for all other uses it's much easier with a light trailer. Am going to try and create a lightweight alloy bolted and riveted trailer which can be built from home.
    Foot pedals sound a very useful addition, and Howard Rice has also recommended them highly. Will include if we can, we have the rowing and sleeping aboard sorted, so will try and include foot peddles.

    Brian
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 07-29-2011 at 08:50 AM.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Probably not, but what great upwind performance from a well submerged assymetric board!!

    I described to John how well my sailing canoe went upwind on port tack with the starboard mounted leeboard well immersed. Not as good on the other tack, especially when short tacking in strong tide. Also being surface piercing they catch floating weed badly, much more than immersed boards in the same conditions.

    Since we are wanting really good sailing performance, when John suggested twin assymetric boards how could I refuse. Will be fun trying an assymetric foil upwind.

    Brian
    Im sure im not the only one waiting for the build thread to commence,and even more interested in hearing how she performs. On the trailer question, tricky stuff with EU law these days,not so much of a problem in UK with a homebuilt......as long as you dont have any accidents with it! Cheers

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    If you are going for twin assymetric boards, why not toe them in a tad, and get an even better lift to windward. [Uffa would ]

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Brian

    Very nice. Looks like you've commissioned another Welsford winner! Just a thought but have you considered using outriggers for even more stability but at the cost of manouverabilty, extra weight, complications etc. It would make a very cosy cruising tri.

    Nick

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Looks good! You may find the reefing from the cockpit to be a real pain in the butt with modern, crunchy Dacron sails. That was something that worked fine in the old cotton sail days, but Dacron puts up a much bigger fight when you try to remotely get it neatly bundled up, but time will tell. Also, your nose is too long and pointy....not the boat's nose, your nose.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by NickW View Post
    Brian

    Just a thought but have you considered using outriggers for even more stability but at the cost of manouverabilty, extra weight, complications etc. It would make a very cosy cruising tri.

    Nick
    I use high carried outriggers on my current sailing canoe and they work very well indeed. I am really looking for a more classical style of the 1880's and as you say, less hassle when launching and putting her away in the dinghy park. Also, in the narrow Keyhaven channels it's a bit of a worry when all the moored boats are so close end to end, if you have to tack all the way through them. The outrigger beam sits just back from the mast, so I guess could be retro-fitted if we allowed for a beam in the structure. I am hoping the stability of the hull and water ballast, plus lower CoE of the sails will give me the confidence to enjoy her out in the Solent.
    Brian

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Brian , if you look at my avatar you can see the reason for my enthusiasm .A Selway Fisher JIM , big sister !
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    No Transom? I'm curious about the pros and cons of a transom versus pointy at the back at this size. I've been working on a similar concept (probably for SOF), my original lines look quite similar to Johns, but I was in the process of changing it to a transom version for planing ability/more load and storage capacity at the back.

    I understand that history says a canoe is by definition pointy at the back, but if history/tradition/traditional looks aren't an issue, what are the pros and cons?

    Ian

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by IanHowick View Post
    No Transom? I'm curious about the pros and cons of a transom versus pointy at the back at this size. I've been working on a similar concept (probably for SOF), my original lines look quite similar to Johns, but I was in the process of changing it to a transom version for planing ability/more load and storage capacity at the back.

    I understand that history says a canoe is by definition pointy at the back, but if history/tradition/traditional looks aren't an issue, what are the pros and cons?

    Ian
    Hopefully John may have some time to answer this more fully but here's my sailing experience in long thin hulls.

    I think Ian, the way long thin hulls move through the water at higher speeds is a little different to wide planing hulls. Think of a Tornado catamaran hulls going at their very high speeds. The hulls don't plane in the wide bodied sense, of changing mode and lifting on the flatter aft sections. When sailing my current sailing canoe, in winds of say 15 to 22 knots, she simply frees herself of "displacement" sailing speeds and sets off at "planing" speeds without the lift or difficulty of breaking free. It's a very clear speeding up and brings great joy to this old man. Hugh Horton reports the same "planing" with Bufflehead and I have a picture some where of him with a rooster tail well behind the stern of the boat.
    So, in my experience, a long slim hull like a sailing canoe does not need a planing square stern to move "quickly" (above displacement calculated speed) through the water.
    Ian, a SOF carbon tubed version of Nautilus, like your superb SOF sea kayak, if she could be made stiff enough to hold the twist from the rigs, would be quite amazing.
    Brian

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    There are a few questions in the thread, so here goes.
    She will be lapstrake plywood by the way, and there are thoughts of a kit being available.

    Zane, I've done three rowing boats with sliding seats, Mollyhawk being the only one with plans available, the other two were custom designs. ( How y' goin, orrite?)

    Peter, I'm aiming for stability such that a normal weight person could stand on her gunwale alongside a jetty and not put the rail under. The little bit of ballast is mostly to give her momentum when maneuvering in a head sea, the skippers weight being so low helps stability a lot and her flooding angle will be up around 50 deg from vertical, I dont anticipate capsizes but if somehow she is swamped there is so much enclosed volume that righting and bucketing her out wont be difficult.

    Scaraborgcraft, she will indeed sail on one board, and I've used "offcenterboards" enough to know how well they work or dont, but we're hanging the rails for the sliding rowing seat on the inside faces of the 'cases and are also setting up a canvas sling bed supported by those and the bulkheads at each end. Twin boards also allow us to use assymetrical lifting foils. Obscured by Clouds, I've experimented with toe in to increase the angle of incidence, and found it counter productive as once the speed gets up to three knots or so the few degrees of leeway that the boat makes provides about the right amount of angle to the water flow. Any more angle than that and the drag goes up very quickly.

    JDMH. Brian and I are still talking about the steering, he's favouring long push pull tillers, I prefer either rudder lines or foot pedal, but we dont have to make that choice until the boats well along.

    Todd, the reefing sytem will be the single line slab reefing system that I've used on several boats, well proven, no problems. It doesnt look as tidy as the fully tied in reef points, but the ocean racing guys havn't used that in years, the lazyjacks stop the bunt of the sail from fluttering about, and being able to reef kneeling in the cockpit rather than having to make it to shore is essential. That nose by the way, is for seeking out the wind, as in " he's got a good nose for it". Bigger is better.

    Ian, Sailing canoes are traditionally double ended, and part of the brief is to produce a boat that continues the tradition. A transom would give more stability, allow a little more sail, be slightly faster in a breeze but it wouldnt be a sailing canoe.

    John Welsford
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    Hopefully John may have some time to answer this more fully but here's my sailing experience in long thin hulls.

    I think Ian, the way long thin hulls move through the water at higher speeds is a little different to wide planing hulls. Think of a Tornado catamaran hulls going at their very high speeds. The hulls don't plane in the wide bodied sense, of changing mode and lifting on the flatter aft sections. When sailing my current sailing canoe, in winds of say 15 to 22 knots, she simply frees herself of "displacement" sailing speeds and sets off at "planing" speeds without the lift or difficulty of breaking free. It's a very clear speeding up and brings great joy to this old man. Hugh Horton reports the same "planing" with Bufflehead and I have a picture some where of him with a rooster tail well behind the stern of the boat.
    So, in my experience, a long slim hull like a sailing canoe does not need a planing square stern to move "quickly" (above displacement calculated speed) through the water.
    Ian, a SOF carbon tubed version of Nautilus, like your superb SOF sea kayak, if she could be made stiff enough to hold the twist from the rigs, would be quite amazing.
    Brian
    Hi Brian, yes I agree with what you've writen above regarding long narrow hulls. I think that for me, it will come down to which way is easier to build. A transom means the lines/stringers have to pull in less acutely at the back, and possibly the transom adds reserve buoyancy and storage space/load capacity at the back. As I said, I'm leaning towards a transom SOF, with concept and lines similar to John W's (Sailing plus sliding seat rowing, leeboards plus room to sleep in the middle), but construction also inspired to an extent by Dave Gentry's Ruth - 7 stringers and a Transom. 4 five metre long Carbon Stringers recycled from my kayak for the chines, kayak paddle shaft (larger) diameter spiraflex glass tube for the keel and gunwale stringers. Biggest challenge as you say will be managing the torsional loads from the rig if it's to be a real sailor rather than a row plus downwind rig boat, but I've got some ideas I'm working on. Must stop thread drifting/hijacking... I'll send you some details and/or post a new thread if anyone is interested.

    Just crossed postings with John W, so this is edited in:
    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    Ian, Sailing canoes are traditionally double ended, and part of the brief is to produce a boat that continues the tradition. A transom would give more stability, allow a little more sail, be slightly faster in a breeze but it wouldnt be a sailing canoe.

    John Welsford
    Yes John, thought this was how things stacked up, thanks for the answer.

    Ian
    Last edited by IanHowick; 07-29-2011 at 04:45 PM.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Here's the original Nautilus


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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Count my vote against pedals; too restrictive IMHO. Norwegian push-pull tiller (or tillers) will let the sailor move fore/aft and.or athwartships as required and will let the more acrobat minded limber sailor sit up on the rail, or throw the lower legs over the rails to windward.
    John, stellar design and incisive thinking as usual. Max beam of 38 inches amidships with that nice tumblehome should be a dream under sail.
    For myself, I would not object to 16'5". Could even steer her with a paddle and a paddle crutch along the gunwales, but that's a different conversation........
    Trailex 250 alum trailer would be about right for her and can be shipped UPS, or similar, and bolted together in situ.
    Best,
    David

    PS, not sure how the backrest is configured or how the rear deck commences but based upon the drawing, seems that the cockpit could be enlarged aft slightly........might make it possible to have a second on board for day outings.
    Live and let live

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Your point is valid, but there is no reason why both tiller lines and pedals cant be combined, and with a built in seat and backrest the skippers position does not usually alter much so the option of sitting in comfort with sheets in hand and steering with feet is attractive.

    This is a slightly higher volume boat than the original Nautilus shown above, much more stable, and the rig is simpler ( mainly due to the stability of modern sailcloth meaning no battens etc ). My intention here is to produce a real cruiser suited to someone not interested in physically demanding sailing, hence armchair comfort, light weight to manhandle around, easy to rig and un, but with sufficient speed to make her fun to sail.
    We're talking a loaded displacement to length ratio of about 40 or 50 here, thats in the high performance multihull zone and there will be points of sail where she will easily exceed her theoretical hull speed, even with her pointy stern.

    To get the rig and the offcenterboard ( s) in the right place for the ergonomics, I've had to use more of the rudder to contribute to the lateral plane than I'd do otherwise. The skippers position is set by the best position for his weight, thats set by the best position for the center of bouyancy, thats --etc etc --- on and on, all linked, so steering this particular boat with a paddle over the side wont work.

    Thanks for the compliment, this is a fun project, I've not done as much design work as I'd like for quite a while now and its good to be back at the drawing board.

    John Welsford


    Quote Originally Posted by David Geiss View Post
    Count my vote against pedals; too restrictive IMHO. Norwegian push-pull tiller (or tillers) will let the sailor move fore/aft and.or athwartships as required and will let the more acrobat minded limber sailor sit up on the rail, or throw the lower legs over the rails to windward.
    John, stellar design and incisive thinking as usual. Max beam of 38 inches amidships with that nice tumblehome should be a dream under sail.
    For myself, I would not object to 16'5". Could even steer her with a paddle and a paddle crutch along the gunwales, but that's a different conversation........
    Trailex 250 alum trailer would be about right for her and can be shipped UPS, or similar, and bolted together in situ.
    Best,
    David

    PS, not sure how the backrest is configured or how the rear deck commences but based upon the drawing, seems that the cockpit could be enlarged aft slightly........might make it possible to have a second on board for day outings.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Interesting John ,any ideas of a list of ply yet ? 5 sheets of 4mm ?
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    JW, On second look, I see what you are getting at on the rudder contributing significantly to the lateral plane.
    Perhaps a paddle steering set up for your lovely Nautilus is a naive thought born of my natural aversion to rudders on canoes.
    Might feel different a decade from now though.

    That's a canoe that real easy on the eyes and should be able to admirably handle some swell and chop in a modest blow in the hands of a capable skipper! Well done and you've brought a design from more than a century ago to the present day!!!!!!

    Best,
    DG
    Live and let live

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    John, this may be a sin to some but would there be a possibility of plans for strip construction?

    And very beautiful canoe, looks to be just right!

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    No problem, same plans, same moulds, just strip it, 1 1/2in x 5/16 Western red cedar with 6 oz glass both sides.

    JohnW
    Quote Originally Posted by RodSBT View Post
    John, this may be a sin to some but would there be a possibility of plans for strip construction?

    And very beautiful canoe, looks to be just right!
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    John,

    That mizzen rig - a sprit-boomed leg-o-mutton?

    I agree - it's a mighty pretty boat.
    David G
    Harbor Woodworks
    http://www.harborwoodworking.com/boat.html

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Bradshaw View Post
    Looks good! You may find the reefing from the cockpit to be a real pain in the butt with modern, crunchy Dacron sails. That was something that worked fine in the old cotton sail days, but Dacron puts up a much bigger fight when you try to remotely get it neatly bundled up, but time will tell. Also, your nose is too long and pointy....not the boat's nose, your nose.
    Your kind compliment means a lot to me Todd, thank you. Concentrating on really good form stability and starting from a Nautilus hull I had not expected such a lovely looking hull to appear on my computer screen when John sent the first sketch to me. Then John posts that I should be able to stand on the gunnel and she will be more stable than Nautilus, yet she look such a lovely shape - I just so wanted to bring back those wonderful cruising canoes of the 1880's - I can hardly believe it's really is happening.
    I agree wil your comment about modern Dacron being bulky when bundled. I would really like to find a soft handled lightweight cloth that could look correct yet handle with far less bulk than the usual dacrons with all their filler. I am thinking something more like a spinnaker cloth, but in a parchment colour? Any suggestions. Brian

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Quote Originally Posted by keyhavenpotterer View Post
    I am thinking something more like a spinnaker cloth, but in a parchment colour? Any suggestions. Brian
    That was what came to my mind too ,I doubt she will see toooo much wind .
    '' You ain't gonna learn what you don't want to know. ''
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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Thats right David, one of the issues in this type of boat is keeping the sheet loadings low, another is reduction of twist. That latter is very important as twist in either sail rolls the boat when running off, and in a relatively narrow boat thats an issue when the wind gets up.
    So, the balance lug main and sprit boomed l.o.m. mizzen are both good choices in that respect, plus Brian is very familiar with the balance lug.

    John Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by David G View Post
    John,

    That mizzen rig - a sprit-boomed leg-o-mutton?

    I agree - it's a mighty pretty boat.
    An expert is but a beginner with experience.

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Mr Welsford Do you have any plans for an Enlarged Pathfinder or something Similar, maybe 21-22 foot?

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    Default Re: New Welsford Design - Nautilus sailing Canoe

    Before the internal combustion engine, before the great wars, a man found himself some adventure, in those times, with his sailing canoe. They ventured all over Europe in them, taking advantage of the industrial revolution's great powerhouse, the steam engine (they put them in the luggage compartment) and cruised far and wide. No marinas, no powerboats, little shipping. The cruising was typically along shore and offshore in good conditions. This neccessitated a more powerful and commodious hull form.

    Gareth posted an original picture of Warrington Baden Powell with his Nautilus in black and white above, luckily a recent auction at Turks, UK (they sold off there collection used as film props) had an original Nautilus (there were several, as they were developed). Dad was outbid in the end, but he took some pictures of her. She was built in 1887. I'll post the pictures, so people can familiarise themselves with not just the original type, but an original boat's shape, rigging and construction details.












    Edward (Brian's son).
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 07-30-2011 at 04:12 AM.

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