Sail & Oar Beach-Camp Cruisers: Did I Miss Any?

[Pomor]

Nice boat Pomor. Axe ,chisel,plane and hammer.......and not a gob of epoxy in sight.

Yes what glue. A covering a varnish bakelite lacquer.

[perldog007]

Very nice Job! That's a boat to be proud of. Beautiful, yet still rugged. Looks like you could do some work from that one, or just have leisure. Well done.

[Gerarddm]

Sturdy looking. Nicely done workboat!

[perldog007]

I would be happy to have your boat for a sail and oar Beach Camp Cruiser! I think it's in the right subject.

Я был бы счастлив, чтобы ваша лодка парус и весла Пляж лагеря Cruiser! Я думаю, что в правом субъекта.

На мой взгляд, это очень красивая

[AJZimm]

Alex,

thanks for the answer. Even if I wanted to (which I very much DON'T), I wouldn't start a different boat now; I'm really really looking forward to sailing my Alaska, transom and all. But I have to ask:

I've sailed in 25-30-ish knots in much smaller waves and shorter fetches and been terrified or at least reasonably certain of a good chance of capsizing (granted, in my Bolger boat, which isn't the most capable boat ever built). I alternate between telling myself that those 10' waves people sail in must be less steep and further apart, thus manageable--OR--I'm not nearly as afraid of big waves as I should be, having never seen them from a small open boat.

Which is closer to the truth, do you think?

Tom

Tom,

I was, as James said, moderately terrified at the time as it was my first time out in weather like that with the boat. As the day wore on, I became more confident in the boat's ability to handle the weather. The only real scare I got was at one point when the boat slewed around and it started to feel like a broach and I scooped a dollop of water over the side, but I had too much sail up.

I suspect a 10' wave on the Straight of Georgia after 50 or more miles of fetch may not be as steep as a 10' wave on a lake with less fetch. As for being afraid of big waves, I think it is a good idea to retain some fear. This may be the point to insert a quote from an Arran Islands fisherman I read once, which goes something like: "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we are only drowned now and again"

[Yeadon]

In our little boats, you're more like a duck than anything. You float the top, then back down, then again. You don't really have any say about it.

I passed pretty close behind a moving freighter this past Sunday out in Puget Sound. Big steep wake. I went wayyyyy up, and on the way down I swear there was a momentary zero g feel. It was interesting. Big Food just kept charging along though.

[perldog007]

In our little boats, you're more like a duck than anything. You float the top, then back down, then again. You don't really have any say about it.

I passed pretty close behind a moving freighter this past Sunday out in Puget Sound. Big steep wake. I went wayyyyy up, and on the way down I swear there was a momentary zero g feel. It was interesting. Big Food just kept charging along though.

I like the story about two watermen in their peapod riding out a gale. A schooner offered to take them aboard and they refused. Can't remember if I read that from Gardner of Chappelle. One or the other I'm pretty sure.

[Pomor]

I would be happy to have your boat for a sail and oar Beach Camp Cruiser! I think it's in the right subject.

Я был бы счастлив, чтобы ваша лодка парус и весла Пляж лагеря Cruiser! Я думаю, что в правом субъекта.

На мой взгляд, это очень красивая

Спасибо. Thank for a rating. A photo of the bottom.

Tom,

I was, as James said, moderately terrified at the time as it was my first time out in weather like that with the boat. As the day wore on, I became more confident in the boat's ability to handle the weather. The only real scare I got was at one point when the boat slewed around and it started to feel like a broach and I scooped a dollop of water over the side, but I had too much sail up.

I suspect a 10' wave on the Straight of Georgia after 50 or more miles of fetch may not be as steep as a 10' wave on a lake with less fetch. As for being afraid of big waves, I think it is a good idea to retain some fear. This may be the point to insert a quote from an Arran Islands fisherman I read once, which goes something like: "A man who is not afraid of the sea will soon be drowned, for he will be going out on a day he shouldn't. We do be afraid of the sea, and we are only drowned now and again"

Gold words based on common sense. Золотые слова, основанные на здравом смысле. Each boat for the purposes, also there is no one universal.

[essaunders]

That said, even if I wasn't I would probably add one of their boats( BayRaider 17) to the mix as it does go close to matching a lot of your criteria. The design fulfills all of the must-haves and quite a lot of the others. It also has the advantage of being able to take on water ballast ( and dump underway) to keep towing weight down and increase stability (self righting from a 90 degree knockdown with the ballast in) when the wind pipes up.

Nice sailboat. How does it row?

[keyhavenpotterer]

At the English Raid, there were several Bay Raiders next to several Ness Yawls.

The Bay Raiders are great boats, powerful hull form, water ballast etc but they are big dayboats, not sail and oar boats. They're much more work and more hassle to put in the water and take out, its not something you'd do more than once for a quick evening sail. Fine for a weekend jolly but not for an evening sail. The Ness Yawls looked much less intimidating, being lighter and double ended at the back makes them much less sizable off and on a trailer. The wetted area and beam of a Bayraider makes it poor under oars except for very short distances. The English Raid had hardly any rowing at all, fine for Solent sailing, but there not a true raid boat, that's blending oar and sail performace, there for people looking for a great dayboat or a sailing adventure boat with great ballast and buoyancy design. But they're big things on a trailer for one person, shrouds etc. It left me feeling that I definately didn't want one, for low hassle sailing, and went looking for a Ness Yawl. In the end we bought a Tirrik for the moment: it points very high upwind with her bermudan rig, but a shroudless lug would be quicker off the water nad get the boom out of the way when rowing. The Ness Yawl is also ideally a two man sail and oar boat with two rowing stations: on your own your carrying a fair bit of excess windage and weight over a smaller one man boat at 15-16ft. On your own you can add ballast to compensate, but its weight on the rail that really powers them up best, and on your own youd be reefing a Ness Yawl fairly promptly. Lots of space and waterline at 19ft though. The Tirrik, is very floaty over waves and dry - very clever. Its big enough to cope with large powerboat waves no sweat at all, no oscillation. It made me think: is the smaller Whilly boat Whilly Tern as good in waves? The smaller size will be even quicker under oars as there is less weight, windage and wetted area and less weight to move around on a trolley. Traditionally these boats work best at 20ft, at this length you get the 4 's' es: Space, Storage, Speed and Stability: hence the popularity of Ness yawl/ Sooty Terns etc, and some have found the Whilly boat size a bit tippy, as its the same beam but shorter reduces form stability. They are often built by first timers who havn't sailed and maybe dont quite understand the narrow waterline advantages though. Anyone with a Whilly Tern can comment?

Other boats not mentioned so far that should be looked at by a harcore sail and oar singlehander would be Joel White's Shearwater, and I must say Ross Lillistones Phoenix is a very clever thing.

Lots of great boats, but they need reclassifying as either ideal one man sail and oar boats or ideally two man sail and oar boats, in the same way there were four man ones - becoming four ern's - then foureens etc. and sixerns. How about an OSO - pronounced OSSA - one man sail and oar - or a TSO (two man sail and oar) prononced TOO SAH? Anyone any better names?

And how about we stop calling these hi tech performance boats plywood. Why use one word when four will do nicely: how about Bi Axial Organic Composite?

[PeterSibley]

The Whilly boat looks as if she would be a very good rowing boat and a little tippy and tender for my taste as sail boat .

[andrewe]

I sail a Whilly Tern, slightly tippy, but less so than the Whilly Boat. It has fuller sections as Iain realised that few rowed them much. As for waves, rides them well and I saw 8kts + downwind with a bit help from the 'downhill' bit. Quite dry too, much more so than an Aber or the Wisstocks design I sail with a mate. The forward flair is good for this. With a gunter sloop rig, it out points the lugs.
I keep meaning to cast some lead wedges to allow for lack of crew, something Iain reccommends. 40kg under the floor should do it. Reefing early is a good idea, like most of Iain's boats.
Andrew

[WI-Tom]

I must say Ross Lillistones Phoenix is a very clever thing.

I'll second that (check out my "A Phoenix III in the North Channel" thread). I don't think that boat could be improved, either for singlehanding or for cruising two (unless you both needed to sleep aboard; for one that'd be great, for two, ???). Beautiful boat, great performance sailing or rowing; a little more modern-looking than a wherry or whitehall if the ultra-traditional look is important to you, but a perfect sail & oar boat.

Tom

[Nipper]

We have had great luck with our Drascombe Lugger, a very seaworthy design, and great for shallow sea sailing, with an oarlock on the aft coaming. Haul up the drop keel, and pull out the centerboard, and you can sail in a foot of water. This is a yawl, and one of them has sailed from San Diego to Gibraltar.

[JotM]

Did you take a look at Siri and/or Beach Pea (15' version), both by Doug Hylan?

Just a thought.

Jaap

[TR]

Ratty and Tern in Port Townsend at the end of the Shipyard Raid 2006. Photo by Cameron Eckhert.

[High Altitude]

If I had to choose, I would pick Alaska. Perfect in my eyes.

[Jazzman]

I've just finished reading this entire thread.
Fantastic , with some really great ideas!
Why has it stopped?
Did you build your dream boat Luke, and have you sailed off into the sunset where there is no internet service, never to be heard from again?

[Yeadon]

Personally, I'm waiting for the Hvalsoe 19.

[Jazzman]

"Personally, I'm waiting for the Hvalsoe 19."
Yes!!!

[James McMullen]

Too many transoms for me personally, but I do think the Hvalsoe 19 would be an awfully good addition to the menu..

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Another thread to catch up on.

[TerryLL]

Too many transoms for me personally, but I do think the Hvalsoe 19 would be an awfully good addition to the menu..

Oh the glory of a transom. Just the most perfect place to hang that outboard.

[Yeadon]

Another thread to catch up on.

Eric, here's my only must-have requirement in the HV19 ... a waterline just a little bit longer than Rowan's waterline. Everything else will just be icing on the cake.

[davebrown]

The stretched Shearwater PLANS (I have never seen the boat built) lose some of the wonderful elegance of the 16 version. I wrote to the designer of Salty Heaven some time ago and did not raise him on the forum. Perhaps he is interested in other things. The 18 ft. Newfoundland Wherry would be my choice, but damn, that would probably be a handful in a cross-winded bad current as a single rower. I do take out a number of double rowing wherry style boats in the 18-20 ft. class, and they are an awful lot as a single.

[Eric Hvalsoe]

Ah, I remember much of this now.

What, another thread not dominated by pointy ended boats. What is the world coming to?

What the hell. Aside from spousal preference - as a general design concept, double enders got nothing on the Hvalsoe 13 and 16 hull model. It boils down to boat for boat, design matched to purpose and preference. I agree with some of the positive observations about transom sterns. Specifically I think the 16 hits the sweet spot with a transom and run that provide accomodation volume, reserve bouyancy and power, without diminishing the ease and joy of rowing. 'Reserve stability' I largely attribute to the midsection - breadth, deadrise, the character of the bilge, flair. But I can't then say that as a rule double enders have inadquate bouyancy, obviously not, look at these other fabulous double ended camp cruisers. 'Surfing' is another mano e mano discussion/debate steeped in subjectivity. An 18 foot HV would be a little wider than say Alaska, but I'm not inclined to draw a dedicated
oar and sail boat over 5'. Maybe I just have not been there before. I've always been a fan of overhangs. Of the 4 boats in Barcley Sound the dead on profile overhangs of Rowan and Bandwagon are quite similiar to my eye. I like transom rake in a sea boat. It is entirely feasible to positon a mizzen. Big Food has less overhang than I, but she has a pretty well rounded forefoot, and is relatively full around the sheer. These are some of the elements forward that make her a good sea boat. The 16 is less full at the sheer forward but has more overhang. Juggle these characteristics for bouyancy and dryness.


I share Dave's concerns about rowing a 'big' boat. I just have not done it much. I suppose Sooty Tern is a reference point for a big boat. The 16 is so nimble.


I don't want to have to drag, trailer, launch or row a very heavy boat. But I now realize that lighweight can be overrated. Light weight is thrilling for a sunday spin, but not necessarily for camp cruising. Then again, the weight of the bare hull becomes an increasingly smaller percentage of gross weight, particularly when carrying water.

What did Luke really mean by a 'wherry'?

A bigger HV would be of similiar shape and model as the existing boats for this sort of design brief. Getting the optimum proportions is a matter of judgement, rather than a simple stretch. I might draw a slightly rounded forefoot with a similiar stem profile, ease back on the overhangs a whisker, and make the bows a touch fuller. I say it is totally possible to combine a superb sail boat and a superb rowboat. Expanding carrying capacity while retaining nimbleness for solo rowing seems to me the great challenge. That is maybe where something's gotta give on a person's wish list.

Stem looks exactly like stern in this script, how confusing.

It would be vaguely diabolical to draw a boat with pinch longer waterline than Rowan.

[Howard Rice]

[IMG][/IMG]

[James McMullen]

Howard, honestly now, how much fun is it to row a SCAMP for ten miles? Have you rowed her for any real distance other than just in and out of harbors? Where and how do you stow and strike your rig while afloat? I know that even smaller, lighter-weight, narrower, lower-windage rowboats don't carry much way between strokes until you get up to a WL of at least 15-16 feet, so I can't imagine that a SCAMP could possibly shine in that regime all that well. As delightful as a SCAMP is in many respects, I'm not sure she actually meets the requirements as a genuine sail AND oar boat. Seems more like an oar-auxilliary cruising sailboat to me, not the same thing really.

Eric, you totally need to design that Hvalsoe 19! You just gotta! And why doncha borrow Dragonfly from Tim while he's got it over there, see how you like rowing a larger boat over some hours? I won't deny that there are compromises in any boat, but obviously, I don't find that the extra size is intolerable compared to the many advantages it offers.

[AJZimm]

Ah, I remember much of this now.

Expanding carrying capacity while retaining nimbleness for solo rowing seems to me the great challenge.

Exactly what I have been pondering after observing our 4 boats in the recent Barkley Sound outing. And to which I might add "expanding sail carrying capacity while retaining nimbleness for solo rowing"

[Jazzman]

I really love the Sooty Tern, but i dig the Walkabout a lot. I just wonder if it isn't a little under canvassed. 80 square feet.
Not to start( or exacerbate! ) any trans-tasman rivalry, but the GIS has 105 on a 1 foot shorter hull, and weighs less. I know people say the GIS has too much, but I think you really can't have too much power. It's easy to reef after all, and I would rather sail if there is the slightest puff, than row.
I'm thinking rowing only up narrow rivers and creeks.
I like the style of the Welsford boats, and I like decks. It is very easy to convert to sleep aboard which is important here as the mozzies will carry you away. They don't get out past 100 metres from shore.
I wonder would the walkabout get up on a plane with more power and two blokes on the gunnel?
Or does it have enough sail?

[keyhavenpotterer]

Paul Gartside Falmouth River Punt, is worth of a mention.

It was free in Watercraft and it's a bit unique in that it's for carvel construction. 15ft its a handy size and the rig option shows a lug and mizzen. designed for rowing and sailing in sheltered water of the Fal estuary, it would be good for a sail and oar design in protected waters from a known designer and has plenty of history. I'm sure it could be built strip or in other fashions. Not so much rocker and a straighter keel than some (harder to push backwards) but it could be made to work and give a carvel experience for someone going old school.

http://store.gartsideboats.com/colle...punt-design-31

Doesn't show the sail plan and foils on his site, but it looked nice in Watercraft article.

[Jazzman]

Hi KHP! That was a great treatise on the walkabout you posted. Odd that it only shows on my email version??? I hadn't thought of spar stowing as being a consideration on sail size. Mr Welsford probably did!
I saw one stretched 10% to 17'10". I wonder if that had Mr Welsford's blessing? So a slightly longer boat could have longer spars and then more sail....
However, it is probably great as is, and I'm just another twit who is re-designing a boat that doesn't need it.
I'd love to hear some sailing stories of the walkabout. I know it rows well.

[keyhavenpotterer]

Jazzman,

Sorry i deleted off, thinking I was rambling. For others, I said that the walkabout's spars are designed to store inside the boat under the decks in the storage pockets, so if you extend the mast for a bit more lug sail you might need to check it still fits inside. I think john designed it not come out if the boat rolls over with the spars inside because of the angles of it. That and the normal tiller, low weight, low wetted area and its overall design with side tanks, proper decks and coaming and buoyancy fore and aft make it a good and frankly unique package. The jib, standing lug yawl version has more sail area, as you can hang a jib on the forestay - one advatange to stays maybe. Also the jib get the cof e lower than if you just put more area into a lug as alot if it is high up. I've looked at it closely and like it alot.

Ian Oughtred builds his own boats with an extra reef's worth of extra sail ontop of normal for a bit of racing advantage, but you will have to be more proactive reefing unless you have extra crew and there is some merit in having a boat that is likely to be easily driven and has less reserve form stability, not over canvassed if you like to relax, as they are more easily driven through the water, but I did this on my Shearwater, and just extended the luff by a reef's worth and made the spars slightly longer and 2mm bigger in diameter to balance the extra potential load (according to Ian). The c of e hardly changes, except slightly higher with a single lug, but for light air sailing, healing isn't an issue and its 70sqm anyway which I should be able to balance hiked out and it should go onto the plane to reduce side force...

[Howard Rice]

James
"Howard, honestly now, how much fun is it to row a SCAMP for ten miles?"
I tossed up SCAMP as a photo for fun. I do however admit to not looking at the opening design criteria for this thread before posting a photo. Now I have. SCAMP hits all of "Must Haves" and hits most of "Preferences" and half way there on "Dislikes." Obviously she doesn't fit the criteria the author has posted (mild dislike of the pram bow, etc).

Didn't see your statement as follows in his design criteria, "I'm not sure she actually meets the requirements as a genuine sail AND oar boat."

I am building a SCAMP and plan a removable boom gallows for the rig in the down position, now I just lace her up with a topping lift. Never had to row her in and out of a harbor as there always seems to be a zephyr aloft.
Iv'e made no intimation nor strong recommendation for SCAMP as a rowing boat because she is not intended for that purpose. Of course there is no perfect boat but some more perfect than others. For me SCAMP fits one "narrow" need/desire niche in my quiver of small boats. In this niche she shines. I don't intend to row her for ten miles and more power to you if rowing ten miles is your cup of tea, me I sail. In flat calm I row and have not yet rowed SCAMP ten miles because there has been no chance to do so nor a need. I have rowed her at 2am in a 30 knot blow with snow, she performed just fine.

I have also cruised a British Mirror pram bow dinghy something like six thousand miles and have had some very long stints at the wood (longest being 26 miles). Mirrors are by any measure not rowing boats but row fine if one understands their limitations. One year Hugh Horton and I left on a micro boat cruise and I rowed my Mirror just over ten miles, no problem in spite of her not carrying her way very well. Would I have been happier with a longer water line, yes but on the other hand I like smaller boats because they offer me the chance to easily haul them above high water. I have rowed a number of boats with longer waterlines in the 15 and 17 foot range. Just too big for my taste. I don't like hauling a bunch of extra boat around and never more so than against a counter wind or wind on the beam. Compromise is either a great word or an ugly word. In my world of small boats it is both.

James a guy you went to college with is here building a SCAMP. Keith, he says Hey. Hope we can hook up at the coming Northwest Woodenboat Festival. It would be nice to sit and chew fat over boats.
Best,
howard

Design Criteria

Must-Haves:

• Sail and Oar boat, with ever so slightly more emphasis on sailing than rowing.
• Single-handed sailing and capsize recovery capability.
• Plenty of room - room for one for onboard camping, preferably two. Three people for daysailing, preferably four.
• Shallow draft for gunkholing.
• Ease of rigging, launch, and recovery singlehanded - boat will be stored on trailer.
• Highly seaworthy design, assuming skilled skipper.
• Positive flotation.
• Modern building materials - plywood or strips and epoxy, etc.
• Available as plans, or kit in the USA.

Preferences:

• Very strong preference for unstayed, two-masted boat.
• Strong preference for living designer and/or active online builders support community.
• Strong aesthetic preference for wherry, over double-ender, over whitehall, over other hullforms.
• Strong preference for off-centerboard, over centerboard, over daggerboard. Very open to leeboards. I have big feet - need the room.
• Strong preference for sleeping at least one aboard, preferably two, down low if possible - see off-centerboard preference above.
• Preference for lugsails over spritsails over other non-Bermuda rigs.
• Preference for an already built, proven design.
• Preference for keel bottom over flat bottom.
• Slight preference for yawl over ketch - it depends upon individual design really.

Dislikes:

• Mild dislike of pram bows.
• Strong dislike of bowsprits.
• No hard chined hullforms - no sharpies, dories, or flat-iron skiffs.
• No mast stays of any kind - no standing rigging.
• No Bermuda rigs. Never. Not on any boat I ever own. Never again. The day I... <multi-thousand word rant deleted>

[Eric Hvalsoe]

While I'm still able, rowing is part of my boating life. It would be a great loss if it was not, on several levels. I don't need two different boats to do both with a high level of satisfaction.
Rowing or sailing ten miles can both be my cup of tea. Either are fine accomplishments measured in different terms. So I guess I do agree with the sentiments on that t shirt . . .

[Jazzman]

Thanks for all that great info KHP!

[john welsford]

James, we'll get you on the oars in a couple of weeks time, I think that you'll find that she rows well enough to move her the last mile when the wind has died completely. Not like the lovely boat you row, but at least well enough to not be too much of a chore. The main issue is the rowing geometry but even that is not so bad as to prevent her moving along ok.

See you at Port Townsend.

John Welsford

Howard, honestly now, how much fun is it to row a SCAMP for ten miles? Have you rowed her for any real distance other than just in and out of harbors? Where and how do you stow and strike your rig while afloat? I know that even smaller, lighter-weight, narrower, lower-windage rowboats don't carry much way between strokes until you get up to a WL of at least 15-16 feet, so I can't imagine that a SCAMP could possibly shine in that regime all that well. As delightful as a SCAMP is in many respects, I'm not sure she actually meets the requirements as a genuine sail AND oar boat. Seems more like an oar-auxilliary cruising sailboat to me, not the same thing really.

Eric, you totally need to design that Hvalsoe 19! You just gotta! And why doncha borrow Dragonfly from Tim while he's got it over there, see how you like rowing a larger boat over some hours? I won't deny that there are compromises in any boat, but obviously, I don't find that the extra size is intolerable compared to the many advantages it offers.

[James McMullen]

Can't wait to see you, John!

And that goes for any of the rest of you who manage to make it to Port Townsend too. No need for just armchair theorizing, come and see some of these boats full size and living color!

I'll be there, arriving by water, and camping on board. And I plan on bringing my full complement of gear, and not just for static display either. I might even be willing to demonstrate setting up a clothesline moor on Sunday afternoon at the beach in front of the Maritime Center (especially since I'm most likely sailing back on Monday morning, and I ain't paying for an extra night in a marina! ). Come and check it out! Everything's easier to visualize when you can actually just go see it in person. No better place to see and compare hundreds of wooden boats side by side by side than the Port Townsend Wooden Boat Festival!

[kenjamin]

James, I want to see a picture of you aboard a SCAMP. I'm betting it will be difficult to hold back a smile.

[James McMullen]

Kenjamin, please remember that I am in no way whatsoever anti-SCAMP. Not in the slightest! I just don't think it's a good fit for me. I am sure I will be smiling when I am in a SCAMP.

Of course, at least part of it will be the smile of grim satisfaction as I mentally check off in my head all the comprehensive and egregious ways in which SCAMP fails to live up to my own idiosyncratic criteria for the perfect boat in the hyper-critical and uncompromising way to which I am accustomed, but then you don't get to be a smugly arrogant opinionated bastard like me without putting in the extra time and effort. It takes work, comrade, work and dedication! And a thorough disregard for sensitivity and tact!

[KMacDonald]

Kenjamin, please remember that I am in no way whatsoever anti-SCAMP. Not in the slightest! I just don't think it's a good fit for me. I am sure I will be smiling when I am in a SCAMP.

Of course, at least part of it will be the smile of grim satisfaction as I mentally check off in my head all the comprehensive and egregious ways in which SCAMP fails to live up to my own idiosyncratic criteria for the perfect boat in the hyper-critical and uncompromising way to which I am accustomed, but then you don't get to be a smugly arrogant opinionated bastard like me without putting in the extra time and effort. It takes work, comrade, work and dedication! And a thorough disregard for sensitivity and tact!

Well put James!!!! I don't like SCAMP for my type of sailing adventures either but it would be a good boat for those that like to sit at the dock, look cute, and dream about camp-cruising.

[kenjamin]

Yeah, it is cute, but it is also very capable. The fact is that it offers a lot of boat for the money and time investment. People will be doing a lot more than sitting at the dock and looking cute with their SCAMPs. It's the little boat that can and that I think is a large part of its popularity. Laugh and make fun if you like but I predict a huge following for this boat. Yeah, it can't help but be slower than a longer boat. You don't have to be a genius to figure that out. But the design offers a lot of seaworthiness, sailing responsiveness, and value that many will appreciate. This is only the infancy of the SCAMP popularity. Wait until all the boats that are presently being built hit the water. John Welsford's SCAMP could become what the Gloucester Gull was to Phil Bolger – a sincere gift to the masses. I wonder if you'll be laughing then.

[KMacDonald]

John Welsford's SCAMP could become what the Gloucester Gull was to Phil Bolger – a sincere gift to the masses. I wonder if you'll be laughing then.

So was the bathtub!!!!!!!!

[Yeadon]

You can camp cruise anything. It's just that some things work better than other. A Scamp would certainly get you deep into the game, and from what I can in Howard's capsize video, she'll bring you home safe, too. Her waterline will limit your daily range, her storage capacity looks tight (though she's beamy, so maybe there's more room than appears), and yes, her rowing situation doesn't look ideal. I would not want to row that boat more than a mile or two at a shot.

But give me a week off, a well-rigged Scamp and a few drybags full of gear and I'm sure I'd come back with a fantastic story to tell.

[KMacDonald]

A Scamp would certainly get you deep into the game, and from what I can in Howard's capsize video, she'll bring you home safe, to.

I wouldn't want to cruise a boat that I felt I needed to run "capsize drills" in. Like James says, capsizing is not an option in cold water.

[callsign222]

I wouldn't want to cruise a boat that I felt I needed to run "capsize drills" in. Like James says, capsizing is not an option in cold water.

ummmmmmmm

[callsign222]

I wouldn't want to cruise a boat that I felt I needed to run "capsize drills" in. Like James says, capsizing is not an option in cold water.

I'm scratching my head at this one.

Capsizing may not be an option, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have prepared beforehand.

"I don't feel like I have an option to get in a fiery car wreck. Therefor, I won't wear my seatbelt."

[keyhavenpotterer]

I don't like SCAMP for my type of sailing adventures either but it would be a good boat for those that like to sit at the dock, look cute, and dream about camp-cruising....................I wouldn't want to cruise a boat that I felt I needed to run "capsize drills" in. Like James says, capsizing is not an option in cold water.

There is becoming a pervading air of smug self rightousness from some people on this forum, and its starting to smell. People should be more respectful of others, other designs and circumstances, in this small wooden boat world. Its disrespectful to criticise without experience or understanding of other people, places, sea conditions and priorities.


What goes around comes around, so for the record:

1. Anyone who hasn't capsize drilled their boat before going out on an adventure, is wholly irresponsible and unseamanlike. Its also against the the spirit of self reliance and inner confidence required on a trip.

2. It's no colder inthe water there in the PNW than here on the South Coast of England. The water temperature is exactly the same summer and winter. Even pensioners daylasiling out of the river are expected to be able to self rescue, and do so. We ware drysuits in the winter and would expect to recover from a dunking and carry on. James's 'not an option' of going over is masking the fact that he hasn't done one capsize recovery drill and tested his boat. He knows it won't do very well loaded with him in it as its built and designed. Its just a cop out.

3. The testing of Scamp's self recovery was highly professional and a necessary step in a boats pre presentation to the public.

4. For the record, Rowan has completely inadaquate buoyancy provision. She will flood to above the centre case, she has no side tanks and front and rear water scoops with the sunken decks. Rainwater collects on those decks and comes in the boat. The front and rear tanks do nothing with the boat on its side. James's outboard pump into the centrecase won't work like that and it will need a bucket and lots of bailing while the boat sits low in the water, and passing waves refill it.

5. You have to sleep in the bilge of Rowan, a wet mucky place after cutting your thwarts up. You can also only build and store a Ness Yawl in a 20ft space, Scamp needs only just over half that, so she can be stored and built in most peoples garages.

6. The Oughtred wooden hatches leak. A complete waste of time. You need good plastic hatches like Scamp sports.

7. Rowan doesn't have a cuddy to get out of the rain or shelter.

8. Rowan doesn't have adjustable ballast like Scamp does, a better solution for a sail and oar boat than lead ballast, as you can lighten a boat for rowing that way on the fly.

9. Rowan and Ness Yawls are designed for two to three people on the rail to balance the sail area. One up, they are easily over pressed in anything but light air. That suits windless west coast US, but not the rest of the world. When it pipes up, you will be stopping and reefing and stopping and reefing with every change in wind speed. OK its got a mizzen, but thats dragging alot of wind resistance the rest of the time. Scamp will be sailing on, while your reefing your boat. A good boat won't need the mizzen to balance it, its just adding resistance aft to balance and slowing you down. Rowan needs 6 spars, twice as many as a Scamp. I'm not sure small boats should need 6 spars. Scamps cockpit self drains into the rear wells, in a Rowan its sloshing about by your feet. She really needs a kicker to control her mainsail properly without it she's suffering excessive leach twist and stretching the fore part of her sail where it needs to stay flat. She's also got more widage and wetted area than optimum for solo rowing. People backpack for weeks organised with a rucksack, just how much storage space does one need for 'crap'.

10. Storage is all in the ends on these double enders as designed. Not where its always optimal or needed.

11. If its always so windlass that you need to row up there, how fast does a boat need to be? Your at sub displacement speed anyhow. If its light so much, as you say and it looks, your hampered with wetted area in low wind, and you'd be sailing faster in a smaller boat with the same sail area.

There are many features of Scamp which make it a great and arguably unequalled beach boat for solo adventuring, features which the Oughtred double enders don't sport and would be better if they did. Having had the foot shorter Tirrik, I'm in some way qualified to comment. Its an unpleasant response, but some people in glass houses should be more careful throwing stones. The glass is very full in Scamp's case, as it is in Oughtred's double enders.



Ed

[KMacDonald]

3. The testing of Scamp's self recovery was highly professional and a necessary step in a boats pre presentation to the public.

Ed

I agree it was a great publicity stunt for its debut. Hopefully the self rescue stunt in benign conditions does not instill confidence in the "masses".

[KMacDonald]

4. For the record, Rowan has completely inadaquate buoyancy provision. She will flood to above the centre case, she has no side tanks and front and rear water scoops with the sunken decks. Rainwater collects on those decks and comes in the boat. The front and rear tanks do nothing with the boat on its side. James's outboard pump into the centrecase won't work like that and it will need a bucket and lots of bailing while the boat sits low in the water, and passing waves refill it.

5. You have to sleep in the bilge of Rowan, a wet mucky place after cutting your thwarts up. You can also only build and store a Ness Yawl in a 20ft space, Scamp needs only just over half that, so she can be stored and built in most peoples garages.

6. The Oughtred wooden hatches leak. A complete waste of time. You need good plastic hatches like Scamp sports.

7. Rowan doesn't have a cuddy to get out of the rain or shelter.

8. Rowan doesn't have adjustable ballast like Scamp does, a better solution for a sail and oar boat than lead ballast, as you can lighten a boat for rowing that way on the fly.

9. Rowan and Ness Yawls are designed for two to three people on the rail to balance the sail area. One up, they are easily over pressed in anything but light air. That suits windless west coast US, but not the rest of the world. When it pipes up, you will be stopping and reefing and stopping and reefing with every change in wind speed. OK its got a mizzen, but thats dragging alot of wind resistance the rest of the time. Scamp will be sailing on, while your reefing your boat. A good boat won't need the mizzen to balance it, its just adding resistance aft to balance and slowing you down. Rowan needs 6 spars, twice as many as a Scamp. I'm not sure small boats should need 6 spars. Scamps cockpit self drains into the rear wells, in a Rowan its sloshing about by your feet. She really needs a kicker to control her mainsail properly without it she's suffering excessive leach twist and stretching the fore part of her sail where it needs to stay flat. She's also got more widage and wetted area than optimum for solo rowing. People backpack for weeks organised with a rucksack, just how much storage space does one need for 'crap'.

10. Storage is all in the ends on these double enders as designed. Not where its always optimal or needed.

11. If its always so windlass that you need to row up there, how fast does a boat need to be? Your at sub displacement speed anyhow. If its light so much, as you say and it looks, your hampered with wetted area in low wind, and you'd be sailing faster in a smaller boat with the same sail area.



Ed

WOW, looks like ROWAN is under attack!!!!!!!!!