Developing Plans for a smaller "Sjogin"... group commissioning....

[RodB]

Hello again Sjogin fans…… as mentioned in the last thread on plans development for Sjogin, after some back and forth conversations with Mr Paul Gartside, I am again trying to see if we can follow the successful method used with the original Sjogin… and get plans developed for a smaller trailerable version with a ballast shoe, centerboard, etc... while closely following the styling of the original. There have been several on this forum show interest in such an idea and I have always thought it a great idea from the beginning of the original project...

As with the previous group comissioning, Paul has agreed to draw up plans for a smaller Sjogin if at least 10 folks commit to $200…. And he would have the plans done within 6 months…. With each participant getting a copy of the plans at that time. As before, a $50 deposit would be necessary for work to begin. Per the previous thread on the wrap up of the plans for Sjogin, we already have 4 folks willing to participate In this project for a smaller open hull version of “Sjogin”. The following is the initial description and feedback is welcome before plans development begins.

I would assume as with the original plans development, when Paul has completed an initial concept drawing, it would be posted here for feedback from those participating.

General description of a “smaller Sjogin”

A smaller Sjogin craft closely incorporating the styling of the original that is a seaworthy little craft, but with a larger cockpit ( an open hull design) … a keel centerboard…with a “foil” centerboard that has a “period profile….
ie., a Slotted Ballast shoe for increased performance and safety and easy singlehanding)..

Stats….
LOD: 19 foot
Beam: Just under 8.5 feet… perhaps slightly less
Draft: No more than 24” board up…

Rudder/tiller similar to Sjogin original ( bottom half of rudder could hinge up…???)

Cockpit combing similar to original Sjogin

Toe rail similar to original Sjogin.

Stems similar to original Sjogin

Plans could include options for two rigs… gaff sloop (low aspect shorter mast easier for trailering) (note to paul… bow sprit or not….????) Paul said he thought a small bowsprit would be in order....
Bermuda sloop as a secondary choice if enough demand is there.

Two 10 foot oars with stowage location integral to cockpit design… for those builders who do not desire an outboard or auxiliary. (see Paul’s comments on this).

Plans to include option for auxiliary power

Plans include drawings etc... for both glued ply lap and strip/cold molded construction.

LINK TO FIRST THREAD ON DEVELOPING PLANS FOR THE ORIGINAL SJOGIN....

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghlight=Sjogin


Committed participants as of now:

Russ Manheimer
Ethan
Smartinsen
RodB


The following are some comments by Paul Gartside:

Sounds good to me at 19ft and just under 8ft 6ins beam. I would make it half decked and forget about a cuddy, or at least keep it very minimal.

A motor is a big problem in a small double ender. I'm inclined to be a purist and just use oars but I know there will be requests for some kind of auxiliary. We might work in a well on one quarter, this is going to be a fully glued hull so cutting into it is no problem, but I don't much care for the drag if the outboard is left in place. A light 2hp dropped over the side in a clam is another option. It would be easily stored forward.

I assume you mean no more than 2ft board up draft. I agree a gaff sloop would suit best.

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Please feel free to chime in and offer any suggestions..... I did point Paul to Canoe Yawls website www.canoeyawl.com so that he could see a great trailer system that allows easy launching just about anywhere... I was thinking that many more folks would be interested in building a 19 footer that is trailerable than the original... and Paul will certainly come up with a beautiful rendition of the original "Sjogin".

Have a great day...

RodB

Reminders of the original....

[Ethan]

I'm still game. Paul does great work and forum projects like this need to be supported - we all benefit in the long run.

[Tusitala]

Here is a thought for an outboard arrangement. It pushes us along at just over 5kts. A simple lightweight ss bracket held in place with 3 acorn nuts & leather washers, easily removed & outboard swings up & rests on deck. 2 studs through sternpost & one through sheer clamp. I'm interested in a 26' "Sjogin"
[IMG][/IMG]

[Peerie Maa]

Peerie Maa is 18 foot over the stems, is trailearble and needs no cb with all of its complications.

This is probably 22 foot, don't know about trailering and has no cb.

Aluna Ivy is trailed everywhere.

I'd advise abiding by the KISS principle.

It can be done without a cb.

[skaraborgcraft]

you will find drawings for what you seek,without the centreboard already in existence based on traditional Swedish working boats. A google search will take you there,cant remember the link off hand,but these are lines plans,and not full building instructions.
Under the circumstances and requirements, why not an open version of Oughtreds Wee Seal (just leave the cabin off), seems to meet all your requirement otherwise???

Peeria Maa is very much like my own Vatternsnipa, plank on edge keel,no centreboard,and no need for one. 8.5 feet of beam is substantial for a 19ft boat. If you want to attract potential European investors in these plans, you will need to keep the beam under 8ft 2in/2.5metres,for towing regs. Good luck!

[Paul Pless]

Peerie Maa is 18 foot over the stems, is trailearble and needs no cb with all of its complications.

How's she to windward, against say. . . . . . a Ness Yawl?

[Peerie Maa]

How's she to windward, against say. . . . . . a Ness Yawl?

A Ness yawl is the same shape and beam on 6 foot more length, although Aluna Ivy like most Ness yawls has less hollow in the garboards than a Shetland racing model. I have not sailed Peerie Maa in direct competition, but I expect based on the foregoing that she would be better.

[Paul Pless]

A Ness yawl is the same shape and beam on 6 foot more length

I meant Oughtred's Ness Yawl.

[Peerie Maa]

Oh, the modern plywood rip offs The picture of Aluna Ivy I had posted is of the real original.

There are no plywood yoals around here to compare her too, however Peerie Maa does point well. Her only vice is that like all long keeled boats she tracks so well that you need to back the jib to swing her through the wind.

[skaraborgcraft]

i agree with Peerie Maa response,especially with tracking well and needing the jib to back the bow round,however, i would say that a Ness Yawl with good foils would dissapear upwind.The trad built boats are great in heavy going in my experience,the extra weight is no bad thing. Comparing a traditional Yoal to a Ness Yawl is comparing apples and oranges,they may look similar,but thats it. Cheers

[Russ Manheimer]

Bump. Any other interested syndicate members?

[botebum]

Interested?
Definitely!
Able?
Not so much

Doug

[RodB]

bump

[RodB]

Ok folks... i have been waiting for a concept drawing before adding any comments here. I think its much better if trying to garner interest in a design... to have a concept drawing so the folks can see a general image. Heres the comments from Mr Gartside and the drawings of his concept design I just received today.

Here's an outline for a 19ft trailerable version of Sjogin. Open boat, half decked with the option for an outboard auxiliary. As discussed plans will have two construction options, glued clinker plywood or strip and glass, and two rig choices, the gaff sloop shown and a bermudan sloop rig. Looks like a nice little boat to me.

DESCRIPTION COPIED FROM ABOVE IN FIRST POST....

A smaller Sjogin craft closely incorporating the styling of the original that is a seaworthy little craft, but with a larger cockpit ( an open hull design) … a keel centerboard…with a “foil” centerboard that has a “period profile….
ie., a Slotted Ballast shoe for increased performance and safety and easy singlehanding)..

Stats….
LOD: 19 foot
Beam: Just under 8.5 feet… perhaps slightly less
Draft: No more than 24” board up…

Rudder/tiller similar to Sjogin original ( bottom half of rudder could hinge up…???)

Cockpit combing similar to original Sjogin

Toe rail similar to original Sjogin.

Stems similar to original Sjogin

Plans will include options for two rigs… gaff sloop (low aspect shorter mast easier for trailering) Paul said he thought a small bowsprit would be in order....
Bermuda sloop as a secondary choice ....

Two 10 foot oars with stowage location integral to cockpit design… for those builders who do not desire an outboard or auxiliary.

Plans to include option for auxiliary power

Plans include drawings etc... for both glued ply lap and strip/cold molded construction.

LINK TO FIRST THREAD ON DEVELOPING PLANS FOR THE ORIGINAL SJOGIN....

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ghlight=Sjogin

As with the previous group comissioning, Paul has agreed to draw up plans for a smaller Sjogin if at least 10 folks commit to $200…. And he would have the plans done within 6 months…. With each participant getting a copy of the plans at that time. As before, a $50 deposit would be necessary for work to begin. Per the previous thread on the wrap up of the plans for Sjogin, we already have 4 folks willing to participate In this project for a smaller open hull version of “Sjogin”. The following is the initial description and feedback is welcome before plans development begins.


We have 4 folks committed so far... we need 6 more at $200 each.... with $50 sent in to Paul Gartside once we get 10 people...

Note: This is the basic parameters of the design... open to any and all comments... for those contemplating participation. The sailplan above shows a tops'l.... but the rig could just be a gaff main with no tops'l ...but a higher peaked main. Feedback welcome... do not hesitate to offer comments... Paul said let see what kind of feedback we get. Nothing is locked down yet except for maintaining the style and beauty of Sjogin.

RodB

[Ethan]

still interested...

[RodB]

Me too...

Committed participants as of now:

Russ Manheimer
Ethan
Smartinsen
RodB

[Ethan]

there was an awesome thread a year or two ago on a similar sized and type boat....let me go look for the thread, it may generate some discussion.....

ETA: Here it is maybe not as applicable as I first remembered...still, some beautiful eye candy...I have a copy of the plans, FWIW.

[StevenBauer]

Look for the KDI thread, Ethan.



Steven

[SMARTINSEN]

Is there anything more on John Brooks' adaptation? I would really like to see the the cabin on the smaller version:



It is really not the same boat without, IMHO.

[RodB]

Steve,

"Cabin" or just a decent foredeck with storage underneath???

I never thought of the smaller boat having a cabin but perhaps a cuddy... as long as it doesn't ruin the styling of the boat. I think it certainly can be considered.

I'm betting John Brooks will offer the boat you show above when he gets time to produce it. He too would want committed parties to proceed. I'm not liking the cabin drawn in the drawing above at all.

Rod

[stromborg]

Vivier has a very nice design based on Sjogin as well, though plans will set you back something like $4k....

Steve

[stromborg]

This is one of the prototype KDIs. At 14' it is a bit smaller than the original design brief for a smaller Sjogin, though you can see the similarities. Planning on building one as soon as they come available.

Steve

[ian scott]

Drawings look very nice. I will muse on this one all day.

[Clinton B Chase]

Vivier has a very nice design based on Sjogin as well, though plans will set you back something like $4k....

Steve

FYI, Vivier's plans are "packages" not just plans. For a typical 20-22' boat you would get 25 or so full size sheets in the "plans". That is more than double the detail that any other designer provides. Also, a building manual is part of the package and they are typically more than 25 pages. That is why Vivier plans are expensive. The work that goes into them is immense as is the value they provide a builder.

It is also worth noting that typical Vivier packages are not 4K...in the cas eof the Sjogin project this was a price for the development of the plans. Plans prices for Vivier boats are actually $570 for a 22' boat.

At that price, even double that price, the plans represent only 2-4% the actual cost of building the boat. If people want to read for fun they can always get study plans.

[stromborg]

My comment wasn't meant as a dig at Mr. Vivier, I should have been more clear that his Sjogin variant was more than just plans. (I did have a moment of sticker shock when I converted euros into dollars, ouch!) It is a beautiful conceptual design, worth a look at the very least.

Clint is right, the cost of the plans are at the small end of the spectrum for a project like this. I imagine it's tough pricing something like a set of plans, especially for a character boat you aren't likely to sell (in relative terms) very many of. More power to those who can make a go of it.

Now, back to your original programming...

Steve

[keyhavenpotterer]

An Orkney Yole at 15ft LOD.



http://dartmouth.boatshed.com/orkney_yole-boat-131477.html

Ed

[andrewdarius]

RodB,

It's looking great, much of what I was looking for. Count me in.

Andy

[RodB]

OK, now we have 5.... just 5 more... The drawings displayed above will match the original Sjogin in stem shapes... in case anyone thought they were a bit different. Any suggestions are welcome to pass on to Paul.... I like the cockpit combing on the Orkney Yole above... cool... the boat could be longer though... and the stems on Sjogen are prettier. Remember, this 19 footer will have a ballast shoe so that she will be a bit more boat than a straight cb design. The reason we have designated this a 19 footer was that it is assumed that many more folks would be able to build a trailerable design with a CB...and also there are gillions of smaller boats under 17 feet.... and Sjogin is such a seaworthy little craft... a smaller open cockpit trailerable design seemed to have broader appeal without just being another 17 foot or smaller design.


RodB

[Gerard]

O.K I'll bite; sign me up. Doubt I'll build but too good to let it pass after all she's gorgeous. Paul Gartside's plans & drafting skills are very impressive; heck the plans are an education in themselves. So who else is in? For $200 its a deal.

[RodB]

OK, we have 6.... just 4 more...

Rod

[RodB]

OK... just had another pm... we now have 7 interested participants....

RodB

[RodB]

Another pm... we now have eight interested parties... I think Paul will begin work on the project now...I'm thinking we will end up with at least 10 guys... or more...

This will be a very nice design... I'll post any intermediate work done by Paul...

RodB

[RodB]

OK GUYS.... GREAT NEWS..... GREAT NEWS .... GREAT NEWS.....

Paul Gartside sent me some more drawings (posted below) and he has decided to change our arrangement because he is so bombarded with work and is having a hard time getting back to the smaller Sjogin design. This has turned out to be a boon for us, the committed participants for developing plans for a smaller "Sjogin".... "Sjogin III".

Paul has a commitment every couple of months to complete a design for "Watercraft" magazine and he has decided to kill two birds with one stone...and to make our "Smaller Sjogin" his next sailboat design for "Watercraft" magazine. I believe he has to have this design completed by February. This works out to be a great savings for all of us, as anyone can download the plans for $50 when they are completed. This is a savings of $150 for the 8 folks who have already agreed to participate in this joint venture. This is a great deal for the entire Woodenboat community as anyone can get the plans for a lovely 19 foot ballasted trailerable "Sjogin" at a very reasonable price of $50. The following images are the latest drawings I have just received... the actual completion of this design will take place in the next couple of months. I can't thank Paul Gartside enough for such an opportunity... I feel guilty as I know he will have to sell a lot of $50 plans to make up for the minimum $2000 original deal. Overall, a great deal for all of us.

Paul Gartside Ltd.
P.O. Box 1575
16 Charlotte Lane
Shelburne, Nova Scotia
Canada. B0T 1W0

A smaller Sjogin craft closely incorporating the styling of the original that is a seaworthy little craft, but with a larger cockpit ( an open hull design) … a keel centerboard…with a “foil” centerboard that has a “period profile….
ie., a Slotted Ballast shoe for increased performance and safety and easy singlehanding)..

Enjoy....

RodB

[rbgarr]

Jeez, that's a LONG gaff!

I like the marconi rig. Reminds me of a simpler, shallower, cb version of Primrose: http://sparkmanstephens.blogspot.com...ble-ender.html

[RodB]

rbgarr...

Thats a lovely little boat.... for sure... thanks for posting.




RodB

[John How]

Wow, that is really coming together nicely and I thought I had my mind made up on another design. I guess I'll have to wait till this becomes available before I procede, that or quit looking. Oh if only it had a lug yawl rig.

[RodB]

Offer Paul a bit of cash to offer that rig too...

RodB

[PeterSibley]

Wow, that is really coming together nicely and I thought I had my mind made up on another design. I guess I'll have to wait till this becomes available before I procede, that or quit looking. Oh if only it had a lug yawl rig.

Agreed +1

[Hesp]

Admirers of Paul's small double-enders might be interested in his design featured in the current issue of Watercraft Magazine. Plans available for $100 CAD here.

Gorgeous.

John

[John How]

Wow Rob, I just read your post above about the new deal. That is an extrordinary deal and I really was planning on another design but have to wait now until this is out, just the thing for weekend cruising in the Ca delta. At this price it seems like a steal! I signed up for a Watercraft subscription as well so I won't miss anything. Thank you as well as Paul and Russ for making this happen. I look forward to building a Sjogin III!

[maarten]

Will there be a Yawl rig available? Like with the 22Ft sjogin version?
I'd probably choose the yawl version.
May have to subscribe to watercraft, seeing what beautifull designs where featured.
Interested! verry much!!

[RodB]

We will see.... in Feb

RodB

[RodB]

Isn't in fascinating the two completely different boats can both be "Home runs" in the traditional design universe... but quite different even though of similar type and fairly close dimensions. Both built traditionally, both full keel, both lovely...

This shows a strip built Sjogin would be lovely...

RodB

[Hesp]

In many ways the boats are quite similar - double ended, Scandinavian type - but there are many differences too - planking, cabin/open - not to mention the numerous more subtle differences. Personally after scrutinising the photos carefully I have to say I prefer Primrose because it has girls on it.

John

[RodB]

Will there be a Yawl rig available? Like with the 22Ft sjogin version?
I'd probably choose the yawl version.
May have to subscribe to watercraft, seeing what beautifull designs where featured.
Interested! verry much!!
R

I guess we'll have to wait and see the "Watercraft" magazine article... but from what Paul sent me, there was only a bermuda and gaff sloop.

RodB

[rbgarr]

For those who like the Primrose and Sjogin shape and rigs, the Apprenticeshop has built, and is selling, a fifteen foot lapstrake gaff 'version': http://www.apprenticeshop.org/1563/boat-for-sale/

[RodB]

Per Paul Gartside, the completed plans for Sjogin III will be submitted to Watercraft Magazine by the end of February... for Issue # 92. The gaff rig will be done for the magazine with a bermudan rig and another construction option for the group. He also said he reinstated a knuckle in the profile at the stem/keel joint. I guess I'm going to subscribe to Watercraft Magazine starting with issue # 92


RodB

[Songololo]

Nice!

[John How]

Per Paul Gartside, the completed plans for Sjogin III will be submitted to Watercraft Magazine by the end of February... for Issue # 92. The gaff rig will be done for the magazine with a bermudan rig and another construction option for the group. He also said he reinstated a knuckle in the profile at the stem/keel joint. I guess I'm going to subscribe to Watercraft Magazine starting with issue # 92

RodB

"Another construction option for the group", would that be another sail plan, if so, I would vote for a somewhat high aspect lug yawl rig! I've already started my subscription to WC so I don't miss it.

[John How]

Anybody start building the full size Sjogin yet?