Gartside double-ended cutter #106

[trango]

Great thread, Fredrik! I'm hoping to start a new build within a year, but first I gotta pick out a design. Can't wait.

Question for you: You said you hated the West System epoxy pumps. Why? I used them for my stripper canoe and really liked them: one pump from each and mix well. I suppose my only complaint is when I need a very tiny batch; one pump stroke is the minimum so I sometimes end up wasting a small amount. I'm guessing that being a chemist, you are more comfortable working with scales (which would get abused in my messy workshop).




Can't wait for your planking to start.

--Mike

Maybe it was just the way I used the pumps but I found them very inaccurate and also rather messy. I guess that working in low temperatures may be one of the reasons for this - the viscosity increase at lower temperatures. From a chemical point of view, epoxy requires rather accurate proportion; i.e. the number of molecules in the A-component should match the number of molecules in the B-component. Now, imagine an 10 % error in the matching of pump A and pump B. This 10 % error will be constant regardless if you mix a small or a large batch of epoxy. The error will also affect the properties of the cured epoxy. When using a scale, the it's no problem to hit the right proportions with an 1-2 gram accuracy. If we mix a 20 gram batch we have an error of 5-10 % (the same as when using the pumps) - but if we mix a 100 gram batch the error will be around 1 %. That's a rather significant difference!

Anyway, which kind of boat do you plan to build??

Hi Fredrik, I'm enjoying your thread . I am starting to build an Iain Oughtred Grey Seal and will be setting up my moulds soon, so we are almost at the same stage.
I feel sorry for you with glueing in the cold weather, how do you manage. Is your workshop heated? By the way the "plummet" is a Plumb-bob. Something is plumb when it is verticle and level when it is horizontal.

Ahh, Greay Seal is a very nice boat - the final match was actually between #106 and the Seal - please start a thread! The shop is heated in many different way. I use a basal electric heat to keep the temp above freezing. When doing epoxy work, I use a diesel heater to keep a suitable temperature. It's no problem once you get used to working in a cold shop. When it comes to epoxy-work the cold Swedish temperature makes the air and wood very dry...

pros and cons!

/Fredrik

[MoMan]

I guess that working in low temperatures may be one of the reasons for this - the viscosity increase at lower temperatures ...

... Anyway, which kind of boat do you plan to build??

I'm in Texas, so no issues with low temps. I had the opposite: a record warm summer, just as I was at the epoxy stage. The slow hardener helped, but it still set up pretty fast when doing the hull. I also had some outgassing issues that created air bubbles. Took some time to iron those out.

As for my next build, something up to 18 feet as I am building in my 20 foot garage. I haven't had much experience with different boats, so this summer I am taking a 4-day course on small boats. I hope that will expose me to a variety of different designs and rigs in a short time and should help me narrow my choices.

--Mike

[trango]

As for my next build, something up to 18 feet as I am building in my 20 foot garage. I haven't had much experience with different boats, so this summer I am taking a 4-day course on small boats. I hope that will expose me to a variety of different designs and rigs in a short time and should help me narrow my choices.

--Mike

Sounds like a very good plan!

For larger projects, I think it's really important for the quality of the finished boat to pick the right design. Take your time and search until you are convinced that you have chosen the right boat. It's easy to just look at boats that you like and forget that you also must by able to live with the boat. I'm building #106 to last a very long time, that keeps me motivated to do my best. I have other boats too, which I love and take good care of - despite knowing that I probably will change them one day...

This is my wife and son leaving my Trophy. Yes I know, plastic, noisy, large motor and very, very far from #106 and most other boats in this forum. But a great offshore fishing and daytrip boat that fits perfectly in my life right now...



/Fredrik

[skaraborgcraft]

Fredrik, good job so far! Thanks for posting the pics of the hunting boats, that little white ice boat has an uncanny similarity to a Herroshoff dinghy! Im down South on the North side of Lake Vattern.

As to your timber choice,if you really are going to go for complete encapsulation,then i see no reason why you could not go for spruce,especially if you are going to use a light cloth on the exterior,maybe interior too? However,i do like larch as a timber.

Good design choice.

I was up in Doretea a few years back visiting friends, couldnt get used to the sun shining at 2am,but fantastic nature and close to mountains. Enjoy the build. Cheers

[trango]

Fredrik, good job so far! Thanks for posting the pics of the hunting boats, that little white ice boat has an uncanny similarity to a Herroshoff dinghy! Im down South on the North side of Lake Vattern.

As to your timber choice,if you really are going to go for complete encapsulation,then i see no reason why you could not go for spruce,especially if you are going to use a light cloth on the exterior,maybe interior too? However,i do like larch as a timber.

Good design choice.

I was up in Doretea a few years back visiting friends, couldnt get used to the sun shining at 2am,but fantastic nature and close to mountains. Enjoy the build. Cheers

Glad you like the thread!

I think spruce will be fine - it glues extremely well! I will use complete encapsulation sheathing both inside and out. If - or rather when I start building with traditional techniques my first choice would be larch - but that's for the future!

As for the hunting boats "isekor", they are still in use, this is two "isekor" I found this evening during a running trip nearby...



The left boat has an arch that is used as handles when travelling thin ice - one foot in the boat and the other foot on the ice...





Flat bottom and rather light construction...





Not much of an archipelago here in Umeå - next stop is Finland where another Gartside boat (#109) has been built by Matti.






/Fredrik

[trango]

The bulk of the keel has been laminated - as far as the roof allows..
This is the last large lamination for a while. The next big job is to build the bow and attach it to the keel.



Aft section after removing the temporary ribband, the end-grain indicates the position of the deadwood (right word??). The deadwood will be laminated in-situ and after shaping the almost completed keel, the final full length lamination will be used to seal any end-grain.








Centreboard slot...




And a picture for those who like epoxy - you are looking a knot where the capillary pressure have transported the epoxy-primer strait through a 3/4 plank. Instead of forming a weakness in the structure, I suspect that such "lateral gluing" increase the strength of the final keel by connecting adjacent layers. Obviously, the key here is to primer the gluing surfaces and use silica-epoxy to avoid starving of the joint.




It's really difficult to describe how solid this keel really feels - considering the weight, it gives an expression of being extremely strong :-). I'm really happy about the boat - Mr. Gartside has done a great job with the plans!

Planking getting closer!

/Fredrik

[trango]

Time to start laminating the bow!

The pattern was lifted from the lofting and the epoxy-work is similar as before...






Each plank is 6 mm (1/4 inc) and the bow is really substantial - this will take a while!

/F

[JoshuaIII]

That look like some brand new clamps, can you take pictures of the before and after


Good for you, it,s getting forward!

[trango]

That look like some brand new clamps, can you take pictures of the before and after


Good for you, it,s getting forward!

When climbing, we use to say "never trust a guy with shiny gear..."


:-)

/F

[andrewpatrol]

Hi Trango, when i glue up my laminations I put a large plastic sheet under the timber then wrap it around before clamping, saves getting glue all over them. If you use clear plastic you can still see whats going on with the glue up.
Thats one big mess of keelson you got there
Andrew

[trango]

Hi Trango, when i glue up my laminations I put a large plastic sheet under the timber then wrap it around before clamping, saves getting glue all over them. If you use clear plastic you can still see whats going on with the glue up.
Thats one big mess of keelson you got there
Andrew

Wrapping the lam in plastic was my original plan - I just could't find the plastic... Well, I guess that the messy clamps will give an illusion that I've done this many times before...

I've started to attach some temporary ribbands, mostly to check the fairness of the hull. This is how it looks without any adjustments (directly from the markings at the molds) with one ribband at the sheer and at diagonals one, two and three.

It this a good way to check fairness and should I use more temporary ribbands?

[Matti]

To check fairness you should to have knot free (pine) batten, maybe same size than you have now, about 3m long.
Just push it against moulds with hands(or other end clamped), maybe with other people, then you can look it other end and find if there is any high spots or some mould is shy.
Better to take little off at one time.( if you need)
Your spruce battens have so much knots and they bend uneven.

Matti

[trango]

Long time since posting. The spring is always crowded with scientific conferences that I'll have to attend, this year worse than ever. First I spent ten days in the Baltimore area and then ten days in Russia. I'll really like travelling in US and Russia was a very nice surprise, but it's good to be home and get some time with the family and with the boat. The laminations are basically finished, I ended up with 27 lams each 1/4" - pretty solid!




Soon time to start cutting the rabbet!

/fredrik

[ddaverne]

Very nice to see the great progress. I've also selected a Paul Gartside design - Spartan II, #164 - and will be starting lofting in a couple of months. Also seriously considered #106 but ended up needing to go a little lighter to be able to tow. I'm also located in a cooler climate - Saskatchewan, Canada.

[J.Madison]

Glad to see you're back at it fredrik!

[trango]

Very nice to see the great progress. I've also selected a Paul Gartside design - Spartan II, #164 - and will be starting lofting in a couple of months. Also seriously considered #106 but ended up needing to go a little lighter to be able to tow. I'm also located in a cooler climate - Saskatchewan, Canada.

Spartan is a very nice design - looking forward to a bildning thread..? I visited Canada a couple of years ago, liked the country and the people very much!

/Fredrik

[trango]

Glad to see you're back at it fredrik!

/f

[trango]

So, after the final glue-up I've spent around 5 hours to do a crude shaping of the steam/bow. Really dusty work, starting with a hand-held power planer and finishing with a Stanley dedicated to rough work I'm starting to see something that looks like a bow.




Pattern lifted from the floor...





Pattern clamped to the keel, fitted according to the lofting. Just love the shape of that bow...




I have some serious shaping to do - what is the best way? Hand saw and finishing with a slick?




I must say that I'm starting to understand the benefits of laminating structural details - it may take time and goo, but the bow feels rock solid and appears very stable. So far, I'm satisfied with the outcome...

/F

[trango]

Time to prepare for some joinery - the project is finally starting to be intresting!




I must say that is was a little bit scary to start cutting the laminations that I've put so much effort into. I started with a circular saw, step-wise increasing the cutting depth.





Finishing with an japanese saw - everything went fine! Repeating the procedure at the mating surface...




And adjusting the fit using a block plane...




I've decided to leave a rather generous gap between the pieces - the general opinion among manufacturer seems to be that such gap will increase the strength of the lamination (when using epoxy).




Sorry for the poor quality, my had to use the iPhone. At least you get a feeling for the shape. I've ordered some chisels that should arrive soon - that will be the starting point for cutting the rabbet. Until then the focus will be the stern. That work will also include laminations but not as demanding as the bow.

More later...

/F

[MoMan]

So, after the final glue-up I've spent around 5 hours to do a crude shaping of the steam/bow. Really dusty work, starting with a hand-held power planer and finishing with a Stanley dedicated to rough work I'm starting to see something that looks like a bow.

That looks pretty heavy--Are you able to muscle it around by yourself or are you getting some help moving it?

[Tom Painter]

Great design, I'm jealous!

Here's a sister ship for ya....I took a couple of pics of Elf when she was in Rockland last summer riding out the "big hurricane" on her trailer.

[trango]

That looks pretty heavy--Are you able to muscle it around by yourself or are you getting some help moving it?

It's not terrible heavy, I'll manage! But I'm looking forward to the day I glue it to the keel...

Great design, I'm jealous!

Here's a sister ship for ya....I took a couple of pics of Elf when she was in Rockland last summer riding out the "big hurricane" on her trailer.

Tom, thank you very much for the pictures - the first I've ever seen of a #106!

She is a beauty! Mr. Gartside have a good eye for proportions!

/F

[skaraborgcraft]

Glad to see more progress Fredrick. That looks like an immensely strong backbone and stem, no worries hitting submerged rocks with that! Keep at it! Cheers

[trango]

Glad to see more progress Fredrick. That looks like an immensely strong backbone and stem, no worries hitting submerged rocks with that! Keep at it! Cheers

Yes the backbone is massive - and it's not even finished yet as the roof prevents the last couple of laminations! I'm certain that, if I ever get finished, this boat will endure much, much worse weather and conditions than most of us...

Today, I've lifted some patterns for the exact positioning of the bow - this step will give a hint about how I've managed to follow the lofting.

Lets have some picts..

















Everything lined up surprisingly well, the gap between the plywood pattern and the bow represents the offset between the length of boat and the lofting.




I'll also report back on the mobile base that was discussed earlier in the thread. I used a boring commercial solution, works great though!


The stern has been laminated - shaping tomorrow!

/F

[Quest]

The difference between the lofting and your build is impressive! If I do half as well I will be very pleased. I'll make sure I chase you for advice when the time comes to sort out my stringers as well.

Looking good.

[trango]

The difference between the lofting and your build is impressive!
Looking good.

Thank you, and welcome to the thread. I was very surprised myself - but honestly I think that beginners luck and the fact that epoxy allows some slack in the joinery with in turns allows some "adjustments" of the bow is the reason for the fit.

Working the stern section now, three pieces to fabricate. The keel (or is it the keelson?) is on it's place on the molds (and on the lofting floor), the stern to the left on on the lofting floor and then a pieces that I don now what to call at all - but you get the idea...





This time I decided to do the glue up in two steps and use the cast iron table of my table saw for the first part...




Soon ready for cutting the rabbet - and "scary sharp" have just got a new meaning, this is a set of Ray Iles Registered Firmer Chisels and a 2 inc slick.




After my Ebay shopping of planes I thought that it would be easy to build a set of chisels as well. However, most chisels are sold individually and the freight from UK or US rapidly makes any Ebay endeavour rather expensive, even if the chisel in itself is affordiable. In the end, it turns out that this set of tools is motivated - at least that is what I'm trying to tell my wife...


/Fredrik

[Matti]

Good to see you have progress !
Never regret to buy expensive tools, only cheap which doesn`t work!

106 looks very stout in pictures, but don`t put that kind of light pole on fore deck than on lower pic in post 121

Here we have rainy,chilly and windy summer (little too much) at least to now, hope to be better!(only less than 300 miles)

Matti

[trango]

Good to see you have progress !
Never regret to buy expensive tools, only cheap which doesn`t work!

106 looks very stout in pictures, but don`t put that kind of light pole on fore deck than on lower pic in post 121

Here we have rainy,chilly and windy summer (little too much) at least to now, hope to be better!(only less than 300 miles)

Matti

Matti

Good to hear from you!

The summer in Sweden has also been very rainy and cold - let's keep our fingers crossed for a nice long dry autum!

When you say it - the pole looks rather light, the plans call for 3.5 inc square. Maybe I should increase the dimensions...


The stern lamination has been cleaned up and is more or less finished. Now I have some thinking to do on how to proceed.



/Fredrik

[skaraborgcraft]

Ooooooohhhhh........chisel porn.......again,good tools investment,cheap tools a waste. Enjoy working them in.

[trango]

From this point there are a number of different strategies possible (discussed in the thread "Please advice on how to proceed..). The planking will land on the keel with a backing plank behind so in principle, for strength reasons, the rabbet in the keel is probably not necessary. Moreover, when strip-planking, the stern, keel and bow is usually built in such a way that cutting the rabbet is not really necessary (using a false stern, keel and bow). That would probably be the fastest and simplest way to proceed. However, as I want to get some experience of cutting the rabbet and a more "traditional" building strategy, I've decided to cut the rabbet and rely on the epoxy to deal with any mistake that may happen.

Before sharpening the chisels, I have three things left do. Laminate the stern and bow to the keel and build some storage for my planes and chisels.


This is the stern on the plans...







As evident, there are rather much wood to be removed in the upper part of the keel. Some shaping is necessary and mold no 13 interfere with the joinery.








So I started with a temporary removal of mold no 13 and then I made a plywood pattern from the lofting floor. The pattern was clamped to the keel using mold no 12 as a reference. The the stern pieces was clamped to the pattern. I also made some bracing, that you can see in close to the floor - the dimensions were transferred from the lofting.




And from the other side...




Now I will spend some time measure and re-measure everything. During this time I will also build some storage for my tools (to avoid getting restless). When I've convinced myself that everything is OK, I will do the final glue-up!

/Fredrik

[trango]

The question on how to best store my tools have occupied my mind for a while. I want then within reach - the challenge here is that my wife and kids just love to borrow my tools. That is something that I'm very happy (and proud) about - at least as long as they don't use my new chisels to remove nails. The solution will be two separate boards. One "no-no" board with sensitive tools and one board with "beat the h**l out of me" tools.


Anyway, if you happen to visit IKEA and need some storage, grab one of the picture rails in oak.







Fredrik

[trango]

Some side projects has taken time. First of all, my tool-board is finished.










This is an old #7 that I got from my father...



Rusty...




Lets try applied electrochemistry on the sole...

[trango]

48 hours and a light brushing later...










And finally, a few parts for my cyclotron dust collector that I hope to build before starting to rip the planking...




/Fredrik

[rbgarr]

I was out in our Gartside motorboat yesterday and saw this design of his. I don't recall which number it is:

[Matti]

I was out in our Gartside motorboat yesterday and saw this design of his. I don't recall which number it is:

http://www.woodenboatstore.com/product/400-084, might be that.

[skaraborgcraft]

Thats a nice trick on that plane.....any reason that would not work on a saw blade?? Have you started cutting rebates yet?

Cheers

[cprinos]

I was out in our Gartside motorboat yesterday and saw this design of his. I don't recall which number it is:

Gartside's drawings always look so lovely. Then you see a picture of the a built hull and realize it's not just the drawings.

[trango]

I was out in our Gartside motorboat yesterday and saw this design of his. I don't recall which number it is:

Very nice! Which boat do you have?


/Fredrik

[trango]

Thats a nice trick on that plane.....any reason that would not work on a saw blade?? Have you started cutting rebates yet?

Cheers

Works well on saws too, 5A charger, sodium carbonate, stainless steel (positive) and the plane (negative). I've glued the bow an stern and started to cut the rabbet.. Pictures later tonight if the kids fall asleep in decent time (poor chance of that :-))

[trango]

After deciding to cut the rabbet with the bow and stern glued to the keel, I carefully glued the pieces together. In the bow I made a slight misstake since the keel is tapered and the bow is cut to a constant width. Never mind - epoxy is very forgiving so I just filled the discrepancy with thickened epoxy. The same goes for some misalignments of the keel planking due to the slippery epoxy, with some filler, I think the keel will be fine!




The stern went well and after some shaping, marking of the rabbet line and replacement of station no 13 it looks like this. You may see the markings for the rabbet line between station 12 and 13 - some shaping remains!

[trango]

My daughter assisted in the scarfing of planks (1:10 scarfs)...




After scarfing, the planks were planed to 3/4 inc and then I ripped the first strips..




The length of the planks made it necessary to work outside - no snow yet :-)



And finally, the first strip (at the sheer) temporary attached and my first attempt to cut a rabbet...




To be honest - I'm, glad that I'll be using epoxy! The plan is the line the hull with a strip every 8th inc and use the strips to help define the rabbet.

/F

[trango]

I get a few hours of work almost every evening, but progress is still rather slow.

I've continued to prepare the stern to accept the strips. They take a rather severe bend in the aft section and land on a surface that is formed by a backing plank. The backing was shaped on the workbench with the bevels lifted from the lofting floor. Using this approach, it was fairly easy to form a similar rolling bevel for the port and starboard sides, which I hope will give a nice symmetrical stern once finished.





First real boat I'm building so I don't have much to compare with, but I have a distinct feeling that this will be a very strong boat.




The setback of today was the discovery that the 3/4 * 1 inc strips have a strong tendency to break in the aft section. I'm considering to steam or alternatively, since I have a sawmill available, harvest a tree, immediately saw the planks, rip the strips and let the strips dry to an approximate curvature in a bending jigg. Due to the small dimensions of the strips, it shouldn't take long until the wood is sufficiently dry. Opinions?

/Fredrik

[skaraborgcraft]

Agree it should be strong enough.....the more i see of this backbone coming together,the more i have to remind myself you are building a 22ft and not 30ft+ boat!!

With regards to your strips,you could steam or just soak overnight the strips you have got,and try again, i dont think you will need to harvest a tree. Any idea what the moisture content is in the strips you are using?

[trango]

Scaraborgcraft, thank you for dropping by..


The strips are quite dry, klin dried. The reason for using klin dried is simply to ensure a good bond to the epoxy. I will follow yor advice and try steam-bending the strips. If I dry fit them and let them sit on the molds for a couple of weeks prior to gluing the moisture content should be very low.

So many details to think about!

/Fredrik

[trango]

Hmm, looking at the pictures, my clamps are starting to look rather messy with old dried epoxy everywhere. Since I've anyway is going to fire up the steamer, has anyone tried to clean clamps with steam? Should work very good as long the handles can take the heat..

/fredrik

[skaraborgcraft]

Kiln dried timber will always be brittle in comparison to air dried. If the steam will put enough moisture back into the strips,then they may bend before breaking. Understand the epoxy and moisture issue. Are you using shaped (bead and cove) or just square edged strips? I just seen Mark Bowdidge version of strip planking on the "designs for strip plank" thread, and that system would let you steam or soak your whole skin with good ventilation to assist drying. Never seen that type of system before, and if you are glassing inside and out, may be worth considering? Would be tempted to run that past Paul first though.

[andrewpatrol]

[QUOTE=skaraborgcraft;3518710]Agree it should be strong enough.....the more i see of this backbone coming together,the more i have to remind myself you are building a 22ft and not 30ft+ boat!!

X2 My Grey Seal backbone is about 1/4 the size. At least you'll be able to sail all year round with that ice-breaker

[trango]

Kiln dried timber will always be brittle in comparison to air dried. If the steam will put enough moisture back into the strips,then they may bend before breaking. Understand the epoxy and moisture issue. Are you using shaped (bead and cove) or just square edged strips? I just seen Mark Bowdidge version of strip planking on the "designs for strip plank" thread, and that system would let you steam or soak your whole skin with good ventilation to assist drying. Never seen that type of system before, and if you are glassing inside and out, may be worth considering? Would be tempted to run that past Paul first though.

I'm using square strips since I belive that it is easier to verify a sound joint with square strips. I'll try traditional steaming this weekend - I've found some very nice planking stock that I'm preparing right now. The plan is to mill all strips necessary tomorrow and start steaming early saturday morning. If everything goes according to the plans, the hull will be dry-fitted with strips, from the waterline to the sheer, by saturday evening.

[QUOTE=andrewpatrol;3521077]

Agree it should be strong enough.....the more i see of this backbone coming together,the more i have to remind myself you are building a 22ft and not 30ft+ boat!!

X2 My Grey Seal backbone is about 1/4 the size. At least you'll be able to sail all year round with that ice-breaker

Albeit similar in size and layout, I think the Grey Seal and #106 are rather different types of boats and #106 will probably be significantly heavier. Moreover, plywood is stronger than solid wood so I think your Seal will be mighty strong as well.
Are you building the hull in 1/2 inc?

A question for the expertise! Is it worthwhile to use silicon bronze screws to attach the planking to the stem or is A4 stainless sufficently good on an epoxy-sheated boat?


/Fredrik

[Matti]

A question for the expertise! Is it worthwhile to use silicon bronze screws to attach the planking to the stem or is A4 stainless sufficently good on an epoxy-sheated boat?


/Fredrik

Hi Fredrik!
I think that A4 is good enough.

By to way, I visited with a friend Tallinn with Mary III, total 283nm, new speed record 8,1 kn (II reef) when we were coming back to Helsinki, quite heavy weather, wind SW 12-14m/s, on monday we made same with all sails, SW 9 m/s

Matti

[andrewpatrol]

yes Fredrik 12mm to be exact, 20 sheets in shed although I hope only 12 will be for the planking, my Keelson is 3 layers of 16mm Doug fir and then the deadwood on outide to form keel. For and aft stems are 75 wide and 40 depth, somewhat less than yours!!!!
Hows the rebate going?
Andrew