Non-professionals who have designed and built their own small boats

[slidercat]

Let me make this clear. If you want to "modify" a skiff or dory type boat have at it. But when you are building something a little more substantial I will always go with something that has been proven. The cost of the resources at risk (time and money) are substantial.

The trouble with this is that you're guaranteed not to get anything better than what is already available.

If time and money at risk is a major consideration, then we wouldn't be building many boats. As an example, if you want a small cruising sailboat, you won't be able to build one for less than the cost of a used glass boat-- the cost of materials alone will be much more.

I think that for most amateur designers, the pleasure of designing one's own boat is the point of doing it, just as the pleasure of building is the point for those who'd rather build than buy. I didn't really understand this when I drew Slider. I just wanted a kind of boat that was literally not available either new, used, or from professional plans. But now I'm hooked and I find it hard to resist the challenge. The only bad part is that I really don't enjoy boatbuilding that much, probably because I'm not very good at it. But being poor, I'm the only boatbuilder whose services I can afford, so if I want my design ideas to become something real, I have to do it myself.

[W Grabow]

"I think that for most amateur designers, the pleasure of designing one's own boat is the point of doing it, just as the pleasure of building is the point for those who'd rather build than buy. I didn't really understand this when I drew Slider. I just wanted a kind of boat that was literally not available either new, used, or from professional plans. But now I'm hooked and I find it hard to resist the challenge. The only bad part is that I really don't enjoy boatbuilding that much, probably because I'm not very good at it. But being poor, I'm the only boatbuilder whose services I can afford, so if I want my design ideas to become something real, I have to do it myself."

I agree with you entirely. If I wanted a boat of a type that is already commonly available, I'd buy a used glass boat and be time and money ahead. For me, creating a boat is similar to creating a painting. You can buy the finished painting, complete a "paint by numbers" craft project, or attempt an original composition. Your own efforts won't amount to a van Gogh or Monet, but it still can be something to be proud of.

[Tony_C]

or grew up with Yachts where designers are talked of like fashion designers, where a name is held in high regard almost to the point of eclipseing the actual design

So true. This forum breeds this effect.
Just look at the hushed tones used to dicsuss Welsford designs. But when John does engage on this forum the poor guy seems embarassed by all the attention.

Or in Iain Oughtred's case his mystique is built even more by his lack of internet presence. He lives on the Isle of Skye and only communicates by snail mail for Pete's sake. That alone makes Jean Paul Gaultier seem ordinary.

[mizzenman]

Your own design? Very nice. How long is she?

Thank you.

She is 17 feet. Something i cooked up after readong, amongst others, Chapelle, Parker and this forum

[Gerarddm]

I've had this idea for a counter-sterned oar/sail gig, but my skillset isn't yet up to actually building one. Before I die, though...

[S B]

I am adding to my earlier comment, if you build exactly from plans, the best you can expect is what the designer had in mind and there are X number of people doing that. If you take it upon yourself to correct what you think is missing,the possibility exists that you may be right. That is what has brought the boat to what it is today, an exercise worth while, IMHO.

[nessboat]

[nessboat]

Yahoo......finally cracked the photo thing...

[mizzenman]

nessboat, please tell us more about your boat!

[nessboat]

She is 21ft on deck,7ft beam,2ft 6" draught,long keel with bilge keels....strip planked cedar with glass over..I designed her to fit my local sailing grounds ie. She had to be able to take the ground on my drying mooring ,be able to cross the bar at the entrance to the bay without getting out of hand and as I sail singlehanded most of the time be easy to balance under sail...hence the ketch rig.....

[nessboat]

[nessboat]

[nessboat]

Sorry about the poor quality

[Chris Ostlind]

Just a few comments on all this...

1. Can a beginner design a good boat without being a qualified naval architect?

Sure, that can happen and there are lots of reference points for that very thing in the vast libraries of small craft design. When someone is successful at this, there's a couple of ways one can go with the sorting-out process to gain an understanding as to just how that happened. Did they just flat-out luck-out after copying the vast resources of work available to them on the Internet? Just what is it that can make a first design a workable enterprise with the normal fiddly adjustments that come with any design once it hits the water?

2. What happens when this freshly successful, first boat neophyte takes-on the task of making their second, inspired craft and how did that figure in the big picture of being as successful as they may have been with their first effort?

If it's one expression to which we address the potential and that is all that comes forth in a successful manner, then the world is full of first expressions that worked after that fashion. I'd have to think that a first expression is one that had the benefit of hundreds of additional process and development hours, well beyond those made available for subsequent efforts that may, or may not, have gone anywhere. I think that it's within us all to produce a first expression that functions nicely to some degree of utility. The first effort is usually one that has been the subject of serious consideration that was distilled over many, many speculative sessions and a great amount of research. If done correctly, that effort would show the large amount of time and fuss factor invested along the way. One should expect that the product would reveal that investment in time and study.

By all means, hang your cheese out there and see how it flies. If it works, good on ya and do have fun experiencing that reality. If you want to go further, though, then it is best that one takes their time, explores all the resources available and yes, listen to the folks who have gone there before them.

[slidercat]

She is 21ft on deck,7ft beam,2ft 6" draught,long keel with bilge keels....strip planked cedar with glass over..I designed her to fit my local sailing grounds ie. She had to be able to take the ground on my drying mooring ,be able to cross the bar at the entrance to the bay without getting out of hand and as I sail singlehanded most of the time be easy to balance under sail...hence the ketch rig.....

What a lovely little boat. I wish I had your skill as a boatbuilder. Beautiful!

[gilberj]

Hello Chris,
A Naval Architect is mainly trained in rules, scant-lings rules, load-line rules, section modulus, beam strength, and other vaguely related areas. This is not to diminish their role in the Marine industry. You want a proper ship or whatever, get a naval architect they are worth it in every way. If you want a boat for passengers and berthed accommodation you pretty much need a specifically designed boat, or specifically modified boat in Canada. You need a NA for the project. There are very few NA's that are working in small craft. Few in my experience have a clew.....
In the area of self designed / built boats I'd certainly recommend no-one try it unless they have at least some related experience, but F.C.S. it is their time and money.
Can they repeat the initial success. Some can, some not so well.
L. F. Herreshoff had no specific training, other than watching his father. I could be mistaken but Phil Bolger was a designer not an NA. John Welsford I think is a designer and not an NA. Atkins, Devlin, Layden, the same............
The truth is NA's did not exist till a little over 100 years ago, one of the early projects was of course the TITANIC.

[P.L.Lenihan]

Very handsome boat,nessboat! I particularly enjoy the tension between the flatlined chunky house and the sweet sweeps of the sheer and whalestrake.Also, that eager looking stem is well complimented by a very pleasent stern tucked up just right. The waters must smile when they see her sailing through! I know I certainly would!

Well done and bravo!!


Cheers!

Peter

[PeterSibley]

I am not sure I qualify for this thread.I designed my boat and began her, but because of circumstances outside my control she will not be built .... to my extreme disappointment.This is the thread about the design process .

http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ie-Michon-quot

[nessboat]

Very handsome boat,nessboat! I particularly enjoy the tension between the flatlined chunky house and the sweet sweeps of the sheer and whalestrake.Also, that eager looking stem is well complimented by a very pleasent stern tucked up just right. The waters must smile when they see her sailing through! I know I certainly would!

Well done and bravo!!


Cheers!

Peter

Thanks Peter....I sweated buckets drawing and re-drawing the sheerline and cabin.As an amateur I found it tricky to visualse the final effect in three dimension when drawing in two.

Harry

[Sailing Dreams]

I designed and built this 15' rowing skiff, learned a lot, if I was doing anotherone I'd make a few changes, I keep thinking it could be faster if, it would be more stable if, that would make more sense, bottom line it works pretty well.

http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/20...iver-raid.html


Still fascinated by the design process - http://bursledonblog.blogspot.com/20...-of-troys.html

finding the time to build a bigger boat is the problem currently

[blisspacket]

It's much easier cutting and pasting ply than pixels. I might have the hang of it.
Intent was an easy sailing lightweight sailboat. Trailer behind a Prius. Minimal boom intrusion. So the arrowhead shape of the mini Transats was used. That
provided the extreme (7') beam at the stern. Thus no centerboard weight is needed, it's all human ballast. The catboat rig provides enough square feet--104
square feet on the main--and the boom stays well forward'. Haiku is 19 feet long, with the trailer and all gear aboard she weighs 420 lbs.

[blisspacket]

I started with a doorskin model of what I thought I wanted, and scaled the hull bottom panels to two scarrfed lengths of 19'

[blisspacket]

Two layers of 1/4" okume make up the bottom panel of the hull. Cut to shape and flipped for symmetry a couple times, I slathered the epoxy on both surfaces

[blisspacket]

The trailer is blocked in at least eight places, there's a center cut at the bow of the bottom panels to provide some greater rise at the bow. Overall I got about 4" of rocker and about 3" of bend at the stern. Drywall screws minimized voids where there were no posts pinning the panels down. When I cut out the centerboard slot both panels were joined. As for the rest, we'll never know

[blisspacket]

If you recall the scale model, it suffered gaposis. More careful measurment of battens placed where my eye said was right helped to produce the angled bottom panels. Scaling only goes so far, and I prefer to work with the reality of the full size. Working with 1/4 okoume is done readily by one person, and temporary braces to hold things in place lets you eyeball and contemplate.... Yes, other than the model I had no plans. I DID have the finished shape in mind.

[blisspacket]

And so more panels went into place, and removed to sand edges, etc, or to scribe the three dimension edge of a bottom to an angle to a side panel... The stitch and glue construction got three bands of glass on the outside, but I chose shaped cedar clamps bedded in thickened epoxy on the inside.

[blisspacket]

Paint for the bottom, and that's when I cut the centerboard trunk opening. Pics don't show the three mast positions I was ready to use to get the right weather helm. Easier to move the mast.... It turns out the eyeball engineering was OK and I have mild weather helm at the favored foremost mast position

[blisspacket]

The green motif started with Ikea shelf brackets that support the upper pin of the rudder. We're fortunate to have the best used sailing supply store on the entire east coast, Sailors Exchange, here in StAugstine. The formed cherry seat perimeters came from there, and that's how I have quarter stern seats and half round midships seats. It was around in here, putting in the coaming deck, that I lost a sweet sheer and came up with the prosaic one. Until the decking went on, I thought all was pretty yar.

[blisspacket]

I'm a sucker for the dreadnought bow. Yes there's some bondo and glass in there. In some of the fotos you might see a hollowed bow I was able to torture from that large area of side panel.

[blisspacket]

There are small compartment in the box member that creates the decking and the coaming. I need to enlarge those and probably use plexiglass so I can see where all the oddsnends are. I carry spare bearings for the Suzuki motorcycle wheels, well greased, and the rod to change them out. The chainplates are super strength line that is knotted off underneath the sheerclamp. The mast thwart is substantial SYPine, and the mast shrouds tug down on a mast collar at deck level, so I'm not trying to push the base of the mast through the bottom. The mast step locates the base of the mast forenaft and side to side, but bears no weight.

[blisspacket]

Another stern shot. The bottom panels provide a swim platform with about 5" and I can watch that area underway and know when to move forward and leave a smooth wake. The first picture, and only one under sail, shows lowers at half mast and uppers at the top. My stacked sailboard mast moved into all kinds of shapes. No good. I followed sailors' good advice and lowered both. Still too much mast bend. Haiku has impressed some fellow racers: as a catboat she is fun and lively with 104 ft2 of sail. The combination of low weight and flatish bottom and the given sail are good. I found a kickup rudder at Sailors Exchange. It came from a Walker Bay 10. It works great. Build time was 5 months. She's clearly intended for sheltered waters. I have Dow foam in the bow and behind the coamings. Haiku is eminently reefable: The mainsheet ends at the boom with a one-squeeze clamp. To reef, slack the clamp, grab the boom, loosen a foot of halyard from the jamcleat, roll the surplus sail onto the boom, and reset the clamp. More fotos when the heat lets up

[blisspacket]

This is one of two aluminum fittings that I use on Haiku to eliminate drilling in the sailboard mast. Epoxy a glass collar at the appropriate height, slide this on as the epoxy cures just to minimize point contact. I've tried light dynema, which stretches time and again. Then wire, which is too heavy. Back to heavier amsteel blue, which is better but still there's creep. Once I forgot to stitch the brummel splice. Only once.... Keeping it light means one person can heft the 23' mast into place without incident.

[kyky]

if i had built something like that, I'd have added a cabin, and added a larger rig.

[earling2]

One fall on Martha's Vineyard I built a 15' skiff for scalloping in one day. Painted it the next. Put a 25 Evinrude on it. The "design" and building were more or less simultaneous. It was a really fine skiff. Stable, dry, fast. Pretty decent looking if I do say so myself. 2x4s frames, sheet rock screws, 3/8" CDX plywood and liquid nails to keep the water out. If I find a photo of it at speed, I'll scan it and post it. Scalloped out of it for two seasons in often fairly awful November/December weather crossing Edgartown Harbor to Cape Pogue pond in a two-foot chop/snow.

Many years earlier I felt inspired to build a 12' rowing dory in the basement. Took me about two days. It was pretty tender, but rowed nicely. It was almost exactly like a Bolger Gull, only shorter. I think I left it on a beach somewhere in Rhode Island.

I agree with Daniel Noyes--you really should have logged a lot of time on the water before you do your own thing. My skiff actually slid sideways down a wave crest and almost dumped me half a mile from shore, wearing foulies and boots, no life jacket, with two heavy drags up high on the culling board. I put a few skegs on the bottom which cured that habit, but that could have been ugly.

[johnw]

johnw ... he designed and built this 17'8 sharpie skiff. The rig was swiped from a Snipe.

And that handsome fellow forward is Tim, on one of my early sails in the boat. It does exactly what I wanted, holds more people than the Snipe, is lighter for pulling on a dinghy dock, and easily exceeds hull speed on a reach in a good wind. She's slower straight downwind and probably upwind than the Snipe, especially in light winds, but when I've raced her, she seems to be able to sail the Snipe rating. Full story of the design and build here: http://www.scribd.com/doc/21456843/B...pie-Black-Swan

I sure got a lot of discouraging feedback when I started a thread about building a boat without plans.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/...p/t-88071.html

Fortunately, it turned out pretty well. Doubt I'll ever have the skill to do what Nessboat has done, but building Black Swan was one of the most rewarding things I've ever done.

[Daniel Noyes]

I sure got a lot of discouraging feedback when I started a thread about building a boat without plans.
http://forum.woodenboat.com/archive/...p/t-88071.html

Not from me! (see date stamp, 07-06-2009, 09:00 PM)

...actually reading through the posts looks like most people were pretty supportive, am I missing something?

How has the skiff worked out for you a couple yrs. after the build?

I have Bagger in my shop now for a scrape and probably her 4th "new paint job", still white topsides, red bottom and a black rail.
below is her just after 3rd refit about 6 yrs. ago

[johnw]

Not from me! (see date stamp, 07-06-2009, 09:00 PM)

...actually reading through the posts looks like most people were pretty supportive, am I missing something?

How has the skiff worked out for you a couple yrs. after the build?

I have Bagger in my shop now for a scrape and probably her 4th "new paint job", still white topsides, red bottom and a black rail.
below is her just after 3rd refit about 6 yrs. ago

Yes, a lot of people were supportive, though some thought I'd produce a horse trough. The boat's been great. Nowadays I'm keeping it on a trailer, and sailing off a beach makes me wish I'd given the boat a centerboard instead of a daggerboard, and although I've simplified the rig, it's still a little complicated for daysailing, but generally, she's a joy to sail and meets my needs. She also gets a lot of compliments -- many more than I got even with a varnished deck on a 50-year-0ld Snipe. I certainly hope she continues to please me as long as yours has pleased you.

Sometimes I get an urge to build something more like a sail and oar boat with a more traditional sharpie shape. One of the compromises in building Black Swan was that I wanted plenty of carrying capacity and still wanted a boat that would plane, so I gave it plenty of rocker and kept the rocker far enough forward that she'd still have a fairly straight run. A traditional shape, essentially straight chines in profile for the first third of the boat and the rocker kept well aft, would be drier, but would be harder to get past hull speed. It's a question of how you use the boat, I guess. Right now, I like a boat that will pick up her skirts and run, so Black Swan is just about right. I've had her out in 20 knots with four people aboard, two of them about 6'5 and 250 lb., and she still sailed well, so I think the profile has enough rocker for the number of friends I like to sail with.

Are you ever going to build that bigger bagger you designed? It sure looked like it would be fun!

[earling2]

the one-day scallop skiff



. . . . and the rowing dory/pram (prory? Damy?)

[Daniel Noyes]

It's much easier cutting and pasting ply than pixels. I might have the hang of it.
Intent was an easy sailing lightweight sailboat. Trailer behind a Prius. Minimal boom intrusion. So the arrowhead shape of the mini Transats was used. That
provided the extreme (7') beam at the stern. Thus no centerboard weight is needed, it's all human ballast. The catboat rig provides enough square feet--104
square feet on the main--and the boom stays well forward'. Haiku is 19 feet long, with the trailer and all gear aboard she weighs 420 lbs.

This is a very interesting boat... kind of makes one wonder what cat boats might have become if they had continued evolving as racing sailboats untill today...

seems like a real fun boat, this new Haiku design obviously benefits from real light construction might a boat along the lines of a ultra light cat boat also carry a large diameter unstayed carbon mast? quite a boat.

[wtarzia]

I designed and built my outrigger "Short Dragon" (http://www.wtarzia.com/outrigger.html ) although the word "design" is a bit high falutin: I sketched it on scrap paper and talked it over with E-buddies on the Proa_file International group, and in general made decisions based on the criteria "it seems right." One exception was that I used the free version of Hullform software to estimate the sinkage of the deep-V ama so that I could guestimate the height of the struts. Yet it has worked out pretty well as a test-bed boat to continually fuss with, modify, and have small adventures aboard. -- Wade

[Alan H]

Blisspacket....that is just plain cool.

[Sedan Fly]

beautiful boats, and such fulfilling acheivements to the owners! congrats i wish i had something like this: http://www.broadsnet.co.uk/ardea_wherry.jpg

[aldebaran]

Well, I made this one to fit on top of an Albin Vega 27. Its just big enough for 2 not to big persons and can be lifted by one. Weight 34 pounds.

[Wavewacker]

Some very nice boats! I'd kinda like to try to build several just for the fun of it. I doubt if I could match the craftsmanship though. Interesting comments too, especially yours Ray. Luck may have something to do with it. There are many things I would feel very comfortable about in changing any paln. A cabin 4 inches higher, thicker rub rails, adding a little more beef to a stern to support a swim platform and countless interior non-structural elements. Such modifications wouldn't be 100 pounds and I would only do so to a boat where such added weight was as insignificant as taking a small child along, seems there is a point of just common sence. I usually ask when I think my ideas exceed or may exceed some limitation or impact safety issues. I can't think of any really ugly sailboats, well, yes I can, but I won't mention it (it was posted in another thread) but function has merit as well.

Just, IMO, I'll turn this over to those who know...lol

[simonlew]

It's much easier cutting and pasting ply than pixels. I might have the hang of it.
Intent was an easy sailing lightweight sailboat. Trailer behind a Prius. Minimal boom intrusion. So the arrowhead shape of the mini Transats was used. That
provided the extreme (7') beam at the stern. Thus no centerboard weight is needed, it's all human ballast. The catboat rig provides enough square feet--104
square feet on the main--and the boom stays well forward'. Haiku is 19 feet long, with the trailer and all gear aboard she weighs 420 lbs.

Hi, saw Haiku at Cedar Key and wondered what was the story behind it.
Cool boat, thanks for sharing.

[slidercat]

One thing that's occurred to me as an addition to the thinking in this thread is that if you design your own boat, the way forward becomes much easier to find.

A year or so back, I designed a cartop cat. This was a 14 footer with both topside strakes from a single 4' width of ply, to keep the boat economical and light. The boat was not a very good boat at first, because I was trying to make it as simple to build and sail as possible, and I used barndoor rudders and no boards-- mostly because Slider, my 16 foot trailerable cat, goes to windward pretty well even without her deep daggerboard. As it turned out, this was not sufficient.



It wasn't until I gave her well-shaped kick-up rudders and a deep centerboard that she began to sail really well.



Anyway, I've threatened to put up free plans for the boat, just because I'd like to see folks understand the enormous advantages that little cruising multis can have, and if you're a novice, a cartoppable boat can have a lot of appeal. But from what I've learned from the first Slipper, I plan to make a lot of changes in the second Slipper plans. For one thing, I'll lengthen the hulls to 15 feet 9 inches, since the additional weight is insignificant. In that regard, I believe that 4 mm ply would be entirely adequate for planking, instead of the 6 mm I used on the original. Slipper II will have fore and aft flotation chambers, and seat rails like Slider's. If the boat will be cartopped, then there's no reason to limit its beam to 8.5 feet. It could have 12 feet of beam, and with that much beam, a beach cat rig would drive it pretty fast and still be safe for cruising. With inside comfortable seating, it would be vastly superior to a beach cat for cruising. All components would weigh less than 50 lbs. each, so any reasonably fit person should be able to get the components on a roof rack.

My point is that without having designed the boat from scratch, many of these improvements might not have occurred to me. And if they had, I might not have had the confidence to consider changing the design that much.

[Alan H]

Well, I made this one to fit on top of an Albin Vega 27. Its just big enough for 2 not to big persons and can be lifted by one. Weight 34 pounds.

Now that's just excellent. What a great little dink!

[Wavewacker]

Alan, that is a little beauty, nice work!

Ray, are you saying that a boat builder only prgresses and learns from mistakes if they actually build a boat?


When I was about 14 a neighbor kid and I built a C class hydroplane from plans out of a magazine, with supervison from his dad, who had never built a boat. It worked fine and it was fun to play with. Before that, my uncle and I built a little row/motor raft with a plywood deck formed by conduit that went below deck and held innertubes to form an crude inflatable. It too was alot of fun and he used it to fish some rivers. For awhile, I drew boats trying to "design" a speed boat, as I recall it was alot like that Yellow Banana and the sides had a curved amas that would act as brakes and keep you from sliding, well, that was the idea, lol. There is a thrill you get from being on the water in or on something you built. The same thing applies to a small homebuilt aircraft, another one of my teen experiences.

Some people can look at something and duplicate it, most don't have the eye to do that. (Probably why plans are sold and used). The boats in this thread are from folks that have a great eye to build what they see and they are skilled as well. Come to think of it, small boats have been built for a long time without plans, I don't think Noah had any, just demensions.

[heavyweather]

I wonder if CAD and CFD tools will make that process more controlled in the future. Imagine if you could test-run your design on your PC. I am mainly interested in manmade waves. I got a CAD background and have seen render engines taking off. Since then they have developed unbiased particle engines like xflow-cfd.
I am sure these will get available for amateurs in the not so far future.

Has anybody designed something in the line of a rotor-ship? Got a 1m modelsailboat that I would love to try something like that, never seen one though. There is one CAT, the Uni-cat Flensburg.

[Hal Forsen]

blisspacket....that is just plain cool.

+1