Anybody know about them?
Or have any lines?
Anybody know about them?
Or have any lines?
I think they are also known as a barcat. I searched some time ago and did not find plans. Since they are somewhat akin to a Deadrise, true plans may not exist. The knowledge seems to be passed down from builder to builder.
Here is some information:
Last edited by orbb; 06-29-2011 at 01:08 PM. Reason: Added hyperlink
Thanks!! I didn't know about the barcat name ... great info
The book "Beautiful Swimmers" has one on the cover. I know where the Little Doll is by the way. I believe she's 28' long X 10" wide. The stem is probably 5' tall, and there's only about 12" freeboard amidship.
Thanks. I would be interested in seeing her. I have been talking to Calvert Marine Museam and got some info on the Darlene (Workboats of Smith Island) ... momentum/fascination is gaining for me to start building
iirc, the crab scrape is the actual crabbing tool similar to a dredge, that's pulled along the bottom, and the type of boat referred to is a barcat as orbb said, have also heard them called bugeyes, skipjacks, and workboats, though i don't know if these names are all accurate. typically barcats are flat-bottomed, made to work in very shallow water, and i've been told developed from smaller cut-down skipjacks.
It seems like I am always pimping this book - "Deadrise and Crossplanked" by Larry Chowning talks about the development and construction of Chesapeake workboats. It touches on barcats. The book is a good starting point if your are interested in the workboats of the Chesapeake.
The Chesapeake Bay maritime museum has a little book called, "A heritage in wood". There's one in it called "Shorebird", I think. (I can't seem to find my copy right now) I don't think of these boats as being flat bottomed, at least the "Little Doll" isn't. She's got a staved deadrise bow, I'll bet at least 1'-6" below the chine. Shes probably nearly flat in the middle, with a skeg and a run towards the stern. Squat boards were added to these hulls as they were powered later by inboard motors. What really is striking about them, is their shearline and their width. They were meant to handle chop and rough water of the open bay.
I can't tell you from experience how it behaves. The low freeboard is to accomodate pulling the scrapes onto the culling board dozens and dozens of times a day. Saves a man's back, you know. I have to believe it was a compromise between comfort and practicality.
You really thinking about building one?
I would love to build a scaled down one - maybe 18 feet LOA. They seem like they would be great still water fishing platforms.
I got 4 feeds in my ear:
1) local captain here in Solomons that makes me drink rum with him
2) Calvert Marine Museam schrewdly sitting down with and showing the beautiful lines of the Darlene (out of Paula Johnsons book on Smith Island)
3) my 15 yr old son and his love for the bay
4) my wife and the desire to keep me out of her hair (little does she know how mad she's going to be with me and the boy tracking sawdust all over the house)
And I really have all the resources locally to make this happen ... other than the good sense resource ... that's vanished
I can tell you're really chompin' at the bit to get going. So many thoughts run through my mind......I wish you nothing but success and satisfaction.
I'm almost finished building a 20', bay type skiff, all traditional, and I can tell you, it ain't easy to measure and build an "old" boat. The main log was probably the easiest/ quickest part of the whole build. It's really all the "little" things that take the time and consideration.
I certainly don't want to discourage you from the real build, but I strongly urge you to build a scale model of your dream Barcat. Build it to 3/4 scale, so your 16ths will equal inches on your rule. Don't just cut sheet wood to plank it, make every plank just like should be. You'll learn a lot about what you're getting into. It'll be a fun way to get started, and it'll look great on the mantel.
Heck those boat boats are probably the easiest to build especially if there is any old timers hanging around. Rarely was there two boats just alike but most all worked and was up to the task. Take at trip over to Tangier Island and spend a day or so and sit down with some of the guys and chat a bit over a hamburger or softshell crab sandwich. You will find that this is the best money and time spent. Materials are really nothing in the skeem of things either. I find like types of materials at local lumberyards such as western red cedar even and make the cross planks for the bottoms. With the right caulking too,, its pretty darn stable if you want a trailable boat. A 20 footer is really easy to do and easy to maintain too. I bet there are some used ones laying around the eastern side too around Cambridge area that can be picked up and redone as a learning tool too, which allows you to learn even more than reading some book.
Of course you also have Deltaville around and there are still some old folks with some knowledge. Even the Cockrell family in Wicomico Church area has some knowledge of the smaller ones.
This is a pretty good forum and thanks for the all the inputs ... one thing I have learned is that I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer ... so I have to rely on smart folks like you guys. I was planning on taking some of your tack:
Wye River models has a scrape http://www.wye-river-models.com/pages/smith.htm and although not pure dimensional replica, I was going to do that in parallel with the full-scale, to envision where the gotcha's will get me.
The wife and I are planning on heading over to Smith Island in a few weeks ... cruise boat is $50/head out of Solomons ... taking the Canon SLR. I told her it would be a nice romantic getaway ... she'll proabbaly ask why I'm packing the hip waders ...
Based on the Darlene, I'll be going to the Amish lumber yard to request a 30ft piece of 10x10 yellow pine. Doubt they will have it hanging around, so they'll cut one down, saw, and sell green. So, it'll be 3-4 month before I can get started while that's drying out. And it's nice to have Dyson's lumber still in business. It's close and they sell beautiful lumber.
But thanks and I suppose I'll get a blog going so I can upload all the incoming data and photos ... I'll post the link here ... but please keep the suggestion coming as I will humblly accept them all
Do you really need a 10x10x30" ? That's a tree trunk. I had a hard time finding trees big enough to hew 24' 8x8's out of when I built my shop. They had to be about 16" dia at the base to yield 8" square at the small end.
If that mill will cut stuff 30' long, and you've got big trees around, get 'em to cut you some long wide stuff for the side planks, too. You're gonna need a lot of wh. oak for the frames, chines, sister keelsons, rub rails, etc. I would avoid summer cut lumber, though.
I'm into all things Chesapeake, especially traditional workboat styles. Check out "Draketail's" build if you can find it.
Richard Dodd (Calvert Marine Museam) and myself sat down and did a "tradestudy" on several designs (I started out in the Smith Island Crabbing Skiff path but needed more beam). All my info is coming off of the drawings provided in Paula Johnson's book "Workboats of Smith Island". I saw a I have get some dimensions off of the drawings, which need to be re-scanned due to page distortion. I will try and get those scans to you so you can check it out.
But the interview with the boatbuilder states the keel started out as a 9-1/2" x 9 1/2" of southern yellow pine, seasoned for 3 months prior to installation. So, yeah, this looks like an obsticle just to get transportation to/from the lumber yard, then having enough back to unload it, let alone laying it in place.
Hey, do you know of a good reference book ... I did see Chapelle's Boatbuilding in Amazon, but it was backordered ...
Unfortunately, You're not gonna find the real "meat" that you're looking for in any boatbuilding book that I know of. I've read most
of 'em, ( but not Paula Johnson's )apparently, because I posted looking for more info, and all the suggestions I got I'd already read. They all have good stuff in 'em. Chappelle's was especially disapointing, in reguard to Chesapeake type construction. Pete Culler's are good.
It's frustrating to look up "caulking", for instance, find the page, and the auther will say something like, "on the subject of caulking, more will be said in ch 4. Then you go to ch 4 and it'll say, "volumes have been writen on caulking already, why say more?"
Chapelle, though his documentation is such a fantastic resource, was not a boatbuilder.
Yeah, the little powered Sm. Is crab skiffs are too narrrow for any sort of practical use, nowadays. There's a bunch of guys who are keeping the tradition alive, racing reproductions. Check out Sm Is crab skiff association.
I can't help asking, Why do you want a traditionally built, uh, 28' hull instead of a composite one? Is it gonna live in the water?
Indeed the traditional bay boats all incorporate a huge keel with false keelsons and cross planked bottoms in almost all cases.But the interview with the boatbuilder states the keel started out as a 9-1/2" x 9 1/2" of southern yellow pine,
The bow was also hatcheted planks for the sharp and pointed bottom entry.
So my son works as mate on Bunkys charter, and yesterday he saw one coming into Solomons harbor ... had the side tiller, exhaust stack, and all ... he didn't get a name
And I'll need to get an accurate bore in there for the propellor shaft or else it ends up in the wood stove.
might I suggest deviating from tradition for the keel and laminating one up. The cost for that chunk of wood will be dear as will transportation and the drying time will be long...with no guarantee of the wood surviving it 100% usable. Laminated or built up keels have been around for as long as solid ones.
Formerly Lewisboats (don't try to change your email address!)
Yeah, there are a lot of options. Scarfing and laminating the main log, out of seasoned and rough cut sections, is a good way to go. It really is more stable than a "log".
I have no pure allegiance to traditional fabrication methods ... because I am not a boatwright ... I have limited infrastructure ... and I currently have a full time job ... so I need to relax my constraints by all sensible means.
Tips like this are great ... thanks!!!
So, Darlene was built in '93? I'm checking her out. I certainly know her grandmother. I've never said anything like THAT before.
Looking it over again this am, I see lines taken off in 93, not built.
Man, you've launched yourself into one hell of a project. I love some of the disclaimers in the lines section text about the port side being different from strbd. This is so typical. Boats like this aren't "designed", they're built. It doesn't matter how many measurements you have, if it don't look right, it ain't right. I've struggled with this before. I'd be willing to bet that this is due to the original log twisting as it dried, throwing things off a little. Then, the builder has to compensate. This doesn't make it wrong, though.
It is so hard to copy an old boat, especially one this big. The simplest error in measuring or laying out a building form can haunt you for days till you get past it. I wouldn't want to use 10 stations to build it. I'd go stem/ stern, and no more than 4 in between, probably 3.
It's a lot to think about. It would be a very cool boat when you got done. It's not hard to start, it's hard to finish. A friend of mine started about a 36' deadrise years ago, with the aid of an accomplished builder, worked on it in spurts, and would stop. Another accomplished builder helped him finish the bottom, then he stopped. Next thing you know, about 12 yrs had gone by, bumble bees had gotten into the hull, it was starting to rot in places. Last year, he cut it up in pieces and burned it. He did save the main log, it was still sound.
a carpenter builds to the nearest 1/8th,
a cabinetmaker builds to the nearest 1/16th
a boatbuilder builds to the nearest boat.
The thread on the draketail build as mentioned above: http://forum.woodenboat.com/showthre...ight=draketail
I see you have been to the Calvert Marine Museum. Richard Dodd was very helpful to me as I began research on the draketail. George Surgent in the boat shop is also very helpful. In addition, I have gotten a lot of help from Mark Barto at the Chesapeake Bay Maritime Museum. Both museums have been very accomodating by letting me crawl all over the boats to get ideas. I find that I make repeat visits as I get to the next stage in my build. The details only start to make sense when I need to solve a similar problem on my boat.
The book "Deadrise and Cross Planked" is indeed worth the money. No lines, but plenty pictures of boats under construction.
Chapelle's "Boatbuilding" is helpful, but I have gotten more use from Sucher's "Simplified Boatbuilding, The V bottom Boats." Sucher has a long chapter on "bay built" (read cross planked bottom) boats.
As for long timbers, Blue Ridge Lumber in Fishersville, VA has sawn some beautiful 8"x8" white oak beams 36' long for a timber framing project we did in 2009. I have moved timbers up to 40' long on a two wheel dolly behind a normal pickup. Use the timber itself as the trailer tongue. Here's a picture of the general idea. For actual road use, I have a dolly with larger tires and a set of attachable tail lights.
Good luck with your build!
If anyone else would like to see the lines, please send me an e-mail at firstname.lastname@example.org.
I agree about the complexity and I was starting frustrated with web research that pretty much yielded nothing ... it's nothing for a reason ... old boatbuilders don't use the net. And you may cringe, but I am keeping glass as an option open ... because traditional (and an unrecoverable goof) may take me on a 12 yr path.
And I'm glad their aren't plans because I learned from making furniture (stress reducer getting me through engineering school) ... that plans are typically absolete after the first mistake ... which is usually made after the 3rd cut.
So to reinforce your "design" comment, at lunch I went down to a local marina and looked at some old deadrises that were on the 12 yr refurb plan. Specifically learning how they arranged the bottom planks with respect to the keel and chine rabbet ... all 3 boats were of the same general hull shape ... all 3 had different plank construction techniques. So improve as long as I adhere to sound priciples w/r to structural integrety and watertightness (kind of the scary things).
Wow. Calvert County Marine Museum. That was my elementary school way back when. Good luck with the build.
Ordered my keel lumber today ... So game's on ... although the 1st quarter's going to be a little slow as the wood needs 1 month to process + 4 to dry ...
I will be posting the build on a Google Blog
That way I can post pictures ... and you folks will have an easier time seeing what's going on
I was told that someone on Sm. Is. has a form for a fiberglass Barcat. Might be wood and C-flex, I'm not sure.
Here's a book you'll want to read: Barcat Skipper. Great stories from the days when Tangier and Smith islands were going concerns.
I did get the Barcat Skipper and it was great.
Also got Paula Johnsons "Workboats of Smith Island" book in. You guys really out to check it out, she did a wonderful job. Now curator of Work and History Division of the National Museaum of American History, I sent her an e-mail yesterday to get permission to put some of Darlene's data on the blog.
In her book was a picture of a fiberglass Barcat.
Also, the keel timber was cut down yesterday. The first Amish sawmill rejected my order due to the length, so they hopped in my truck and took me to another mill that had the capacity ... great folks ... Amos and Henry
Harry V Sucher's Simplified Boat Building: the V-Bottom Boat.
Best book ever and one i would like to see woodenboat reprint is Harry V Sucher's simplified boat building: the v bottom boat. The book has a large number of bay built boat designs and in depth studies of building styles for upper bay and lower bay boats. The diagrams of planking plans square exactly with the workboats down here in deltaville.
Buehler's Backyard Boatbuilding has a good description of how to build a laminated keel and budget building for chined hulls with todays less than ideal materials.
A couple other books with relevant photos or plans of smith island skiffs.
Paula J Johnson's The workboats of smith island
A M Foley and Freddie T Waller's Elliott's Island: the land that time forogt
The local lumber store is selling Select Yellow Pine at $2 bd-ft. Anybody know how I can find out if this is a good/bad deal?
$2.00 a bd. ft. seems a little high, really, to me. Look it over, do you like what you see? Pick out a few boards. Let it set around a while.
Cut it, plane it, drill it, put some screws in it. See if You like it.
Take a little off-cut, throw it in a water tub. Measure it and see how it swells.
What is its moisture content? Was it cut this summer? Flat/rift sawn? Quarter sawn?
This is not a good time of year to buy lumber.
Thanks. The local lumber store has to pre-order, so I get what I get. Luckily, doing a little more surfing I found Woodfinder at http://www.woodfinder.com/listings/011595.php which has a yard where I could pick over the wood
And please lend avise:
I was going to fool around with the transom and molds while my keel was drying out. This way I'll get to understand the glues, fasteners, etc.
The amish still haven't got the keel log sawn yet, and I did specify clear quarter sawn. I'll let it sit protected until Dec. All the backbone material is comig from the amish green, including keel, sister keelson, chine, stem/liner. I'm making this assumption because I can get 34' lengths single pieces, the winter will allow radial shrikange and any longitudnal shrinkage will be negligible. I can even start cutting the rabbet as early as Novemeber, because radial shrinkage will tend to pull the chine in ~ 1/4" over 3' ... so that's cool ... but getting the planking surface dry enough for glue is probbely the most important ...
Sorry for the babbling ... thinking out loud ... while bearing in mind your boat building tolerance theorum
I got the white oak for the transom, and tech details can be found at http://scrapeboatstella-r.blogspot.c...7/transom.html. Sorry for not post pictures here, but I have relatives that are following this, so the blog is a good central location.
Couple questions on gluing the wood together along the seam:
1 - Is biscuit joinery ever used in boat building?
2 - I was planning on Titbond II for above all waterline joints (based on research in this forum). Paula Johnson annotates in her book, the author uses elmers wood glue and 5200 marine sealant. Never a mention on epoxy. So ... what glue do I use?
Excellent read ... got to read the whole thing, especially the end ... also use the "text" tab.
Wayne's an old neighbor of mine
I was at the museum today. In the used book rack was a copy of S Rabble's? backyard boatbuilding. I meant to buy it but forgot it when my wife started picking out jewelry and little tee-shirts for my 3 yr old neice.
You might want to pick it up, only $10.00.
Hey thanks for the head's up! Ran down at noon and picked it up. Once the keel gets in and spring rolls around, you're welcome to come over and check the progress ... bring your neice along as well and we'll get her chicken-neckin ...
W/r to the build, I think the winter will be as slow as molasses ...
How did you like the skipjack down there?
Well, since you asked...
Glad you got the book. I will certainly be heading back to Solomans. I'll let you know next time. It was a spur of the moment trip, my wife was off work and we left in a hurry, didn't even bring the camera.
I was thinking about your build, you better keep that log in the shade and covered up, or it's gonna check like crazy.
The skipjack? I liked it, it's the smallest one I've ever seen.
I got a chuckle in the small boat shed. I own and use 2 boats that are virtually identical to ones they have on display. One is a rail skiff, the other is the little double ended crabbing skiff.
The one I REALLY liked is the log canoe on display inside. I love those things, everytime I see one I want to build one. I really have seriously considered it.
I've got logs big enough right behind my house. I just don't want to cut 'em down because they sort of frame a little ecosystem all their own. But, If they ever start showing signs of dying....
I hope you got a chance to see the boatbuilding display upstairs ... they did a really nice job.
Going up to the amish today to see what's up as I think they are having a hard time with it. And if/when it gets here, I was planning on storing/stickering it the shade, painting the ends, and giving it a little makeshift roof to keep the rain off. Maybe a couple sprays of Termin. But I am starting to think of an alternate plan
And I'm probably going to follow your advise to model the boat first. Looks like I will have the time and I have some questions on some things that it should be able to answer. And keeping a tab of installed pieces can get my bill of meterial down pretty tight ...
So George got back from his trip and I had a nice talk with him, specifically on the keel subject. He seems to have a lot of George Beuler's philosophy, so that was refreshing (after all this angst).
Summary of the conversation was:
- a lot of the yellow pine in this area is cut too immature for boat building
- Douglas fir (and yes poplar) have been use as substitutes by local professionals
- nothing wrong with laminating pressure treated lumber
And Draketail's POC at Fisherville Lumber on oak beams is going to be pursued as well.
Maybe god had a reason the amish drug his feet ...
I deal with transit occasionally. They're right proud of their inventory $$$$.
I think I'd be more inclined to scarf two pieces of 10x10 together than laminate. Two 16' 10x10's wouldn't be so hard to get (or move).
An epoxied scarf joint 3 feet long, through bolted after in place, would make a better main log than laminated, especially when cutting the rabbet.
Last edited by Eddiebou; 08-21-2011 at 07:03 AM.