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Thread: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

  1. #1
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    Default 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Now then, Welsford, I love your scamp

    but....us middle aged to old men, have a lot of stuff

    Something:

    .... comfy to sleep on - in the cabin

    .....better than bucket and chuckit

    ....with enough space for coffee making gear

    single ring is fine for cooking though

    alcohol(for after sailing)

    I for one need a house battery because I have a laptop and my eyes need good light for reading

    inboard/outboard with charging coil and to get us out of trouble

    so need more dry storage space both in and out of the cabin

    standing headroom when hatch is open where we can stand to cook and watch the birds and put our trousers on

    I love the rig, love the bow, but I am too old/impatient to row

    I love the clear cockpit floor so I will settle on two plates

    Thats what I think anyway

    so... Welsford.... time to shift that design from a thought experiment to plans

    I think a 15 foot scamp with enough room for a fat man to sleep inside is what we need

    Dylan
    Last edited by dylan winter; 06-28-2011 at 09:29 AM.

  2. #2
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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Sorry, but I think you'll have to be patient. As John said on another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by john welsford View Post
    A bigger SCAMP? ... I've lots of other projects I have to do before I get to it, and some consultation to do with Small Craft Advisor magazine before it goes ahead, if it does.

    .... [I]ts likely to be quite a while before I get around to drawing the bigger boat. There is a big backlog to clear first.

    John Welsford. A one man band can only play one tune at a time.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    no pressure no progress

    Dylan

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Why not just go with the cabin version pathfinder and then cut the front end off and slap some ply and goo in its place to make it look right?!??

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    I've watched with absolute amazement at how well that fat little SCAMP boat sails, she seems balanced and well mannered in all sorts of conditions and loads, and how on earth (or on water) he managed to get it to do that when its darn near half as wide as it is long I really dont know. Chapelle was adamant that a flat bottom should be no wider than 1/6th the length and heres one thats about 1/2?

    I'd really like to see how a bigger version would go.

    Cedric Rhyn

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Dylan,
    Would his Tread Lightly design work? I realize it's not the same as scamp (no flooding ballast) but it has the same appeal for me. Perhaps John would sketch how this feature would be added for you. Though a bit smaller than your 15' request it just might contain your girth with a bit of room to spare. I would still be interested in a comparison of the two designs from someone with experience with both.


    The CLC PocketShip might also work for you - give it a look

    “Only those who have the patience to do simple things perfectly will acquire the skill to do difficult things easily" Johann Von Schiller

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    i was going to suggest tread lightly also, pocket ship is another small but well formed wee boat.KHP posted some pics of a tread lightly on another post. Theres a whole range of small boats that you could add a small cuddy onto. Cheers

  8. #8
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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    winter sailing

    I sail right through the winter

    I am a wuss and need cabin to sleep and sit in

    heated by a tray of candles

    the bright crisp days that work so well on film also produce long dark crisp nights

    take a look at this and you will see what I mean

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scu...inter-sailing/

    Dylan

  9. #9
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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    The Tread Lightly is a bigger Scamp. Buy those plans from John. Same hull shape etc. It would be just as useful. Its designed so you can lie down inside. This one was built with a smaller cabin.



    Some more pics (can't post these up)

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/5878103...n/photostream/

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/5878103...in/photostream

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/5878103...n/photostream/
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 06-28-2011 at 08:58 AM.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    that is a lovely picture of two blokes sitting in the warm American sunshine

    gladdens my heart on this grey British summer day


    .....I sail in the UK.....rains and snows a lot..... in the winter it is dark from 4.30 at night until 7.30 in the morning

    my back would be like a bent stick if I spent 13 hours below decks in such a small space .... my sleeping bag reduced to a soggy mess

    however.....the tread lightly looks like a great little boat for summer sailing

    could you really imagine three days and two nights on the English East Coast in february aboard the Tread Lightly

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scu...inter-sailing/


    looked at the CLC pockeship - carcking liitle boat.... congratulations all round but....

    I need to take the ground and stay upright

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/200...ng-up-aground/

    but sometimes even the ground is not level

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scu...-99-wainfleet/



    Dylan
    Last edited by dylan winter; 06-28-2011 at 09:26 AM.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    For a big cabin on a big pram you can start building Paul Fisher's Goshawk 16 right away




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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Dylan, i cant imagine these days spending 3 days and nights in the winter onboard a Mirror offshore! I did all that over 20 years ago on 19ft bilge keel Robert Tucker Caprice.I dont really think you would be comfortable in a 15ft scamp either! If you want a larger ditch crawler that can dry out,there are plenty of used Eventides,and as you are not averse to plastic, an Etap 20/22 is a good boat with insulated hull that will make the most of your tray of candles when its snowing outside.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Or... if you want 15'... you're edging mighty close to a 16' Great Pelican. Proven design. Capacious beyond belief. Nice sailers.

    http://www.platypusboats.com/gpstore.html



    My friend, Lou, built one - and was very pleased with it.




    ETA -- Of course, a 15' version of SCAMP will be a different boat than a Great Pelican in many particulars. Those details can make all the difference on which is a better fit for your own use. And John is a wizard designer. As one of his approved builders, I try not to pimp his work too avidly here on the forum, but it must be recognized that a 15' SCAMP might well be an improvement - both on the Pelican and on the smaller SCAMP... now that he's able to benefit from some actual experience with the original.
    Last edited by David G; 06-28-2011 at 10:45 AM.
    David G
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    Default 56 and well 'ard

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Dylan, i cant imagine these days spending 3 days and nights in the winter onboard a Mirror offshore! I did all that over 20 years ago on 19ft bilge keel Robert Tucker Caprice.I dont really think you would be comfortable in a 15ft scamp either! If you want a larger ditch crawler that can dry out,there are plenty of used Eventides,and as you are not averse to plastic, an Etap 20/22 is a good boat with insulated hull that will make the most of your tray of candles when its snowing outside.

    comfort....sailing

    not sure I really link those two very closely

    pleasure, delight, satisfaction certainly

    I am 56 and am thinking of my retirement boat when I have finished the KTL Uk circumnavigation

    I want something small enough to launch by myself, light enough to tow behind the electric car I expect to be owning by then

    hence the like of the water ballast idea and one sail

    the flat bottom - which I used to dislike - now seems like a good idea


    the slug suits what I am doing now - although it is starting to get a bit resource hungry of late

    the inboard has been a pit of a burden - yet also a wonderful thing.

    it has been a tough yet amazingly inspiring year so far

    vlogs 107 to 114 - if anyone is interested

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/cat...11-video-logs/

    but the story in short is that the engine mounts fell apart... £1,000 to fix them... two brilliant blokes called Al and Stewie saw the blogs, told me how to take off the old engine mounts without dropping the engine into the bilges, bung them in the post to them in Darlington and two days later they turned up and fitted them to the beast.

    I filmed every part of the experience

    so my council to anyone thinking of fitting an inboard to one of their projects....

    avoid them.

    I think an inboard in a well is a much better option.... and would like space on the superscamp to have an engine well in front of the rudder


    Dylan

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Superscamp! Now there's a name.

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    Default Re: 56 and well 'ard

    Dylan,

    Have you seen Francois Vivier's Ebihen 16. She's full bodied, single sail, outboard in a well infront of the rudder next to the helmsman. Inbuilt buoyancy and waterballast tanks. Oars fit under the floorboards.



    http://www.vivierboats.com/pdf/EN_ebihen.pdf

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    Default Re: 56 and well 'ard

    Great looking dayboat.... no cabin to hide from the weather

    Dylan

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    This will be my next build (I think...barring any little distraction that takes my fancy)...saving the money now and sourcing the plywood. It is a tad larger at 19 feet (Slug Size) than you are looking at but it has a bit of a salty tang to it while having seated headroom, two quarter berths, swing out galley over one berth, head forward, one shallow water steel board in the edge of one berth and one deeper water bottom ballasted board in the edge of the other ( the edge of each berth is 8-9" off centerline of the hull). Removable companion way stairs to access engine in a bay which is also accessed from above in the cockpit under a bridge deck. Looking at about 500 lbs ballast along the centerline in a shallow keel and a couple of stub keels to let it ground level and protect the boards. The keels will probably be 18-20" off centerline canted outwards slightly. Rigging will consist of a Sliding Gunter on a folding mast with a roller Jib if I can fit one, otherwise it will be hanked on. It will have a self draining cockpit in the event of a knock down, and should be fairly dry and snug if things go as planned. The cabin may extend another 6-18" aft...still refining it. For one or two to cruise it would benefit from a smaller cockpit but for daysailing for 3 and up a larger cockpit would be more useful. Personally it will be just me or myself and one or two of my kids so the smaller cockpit is what I will probably go with. What you see here has around 6 ft of cockpit foot space (the bridge deck takes up a couple of feet)...which could be reduce by up to 18" depending on how deep the rear deck/combing is.

    Last edited by Lewisboater; 06-28-2011 at 12:28 PM.
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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Brian beat me to the Ebihen suggestion! Dylan you could always plant a cuddy on top, Vivier may even pen one for you. At around 850kg,not particulary light,but a great burdsome hull,looks fantastic with the lug yawl rig.
    If you intend towing with an electric car,i do hope you dont intend to go very far.....lugging weight has a serious detrimental effect on range. Nothing wrong with a good diesel inboard, i have not seen your blogs,but im guessing as its a Mirror offshore its a Volvo MD1.....just old and probably neglected. A new Beta would be less than half the weight,smoother and quieter,but bloody expensive.

    Is 15ft your max limit?? How about an old Percy Blandford Lysander? Cheers

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by skaraborgcraft View Post
    Brian beat me to the Ebihen suggestion! Dylan you could always plant a cuddy on top, Vivier may even pen one for you. At around 850kg,not particulary light,but a great burdsome hull,looks fantastic with the lug yawl rig.
    If you intend towing with an electric car,i do hope you dont intend to go very far.....lugging weight has a serious detrimental effect on range. Nothing wrong with a good diesel inboard, i have not seen your blogs,but im guessing as its a Mirror offshore its a Volvo MD1.....just old and probably neglected. A new Beta would be less than half the weight,smoother and quieter,but bloody expensive.

    Is 15ft your max limit?? How about an old Percy Blandford Lysander? Cheers

    Inboards - pah! They are for rich men who are ready and willing to bump into a £1,000 bill.

    although they do provide wieght in the right place, the drive in the right place, lots of electrical power and heat for the winter - but that only lasts for the first hour after you stop.

    A small outboard in a well

    As for length - I want to trailer sail well into my 70s. I have trailer sailed a 22 footer. Only crazy people trail big boats

    then I had a 15 foot 6inch plastic trailer sailer called a Seafarer. Took the mud, sat upright, had a simple drop keel you could raise and lower with a rope working on a six part purchase, slopped in the keel box in a chop though.

    I had a roller trailer - that cost me £1,000 but it could lift the boat up off the mud. Towed a treat behind the 1600 cc car

    I also want to keep the boat in the garage - workshop to you guys in the states.



    Dylan

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Im going to get this one in before KHP.....you need a mouse! Eric Hesevals Souriciou, may need to sort the rig for easier management ,but the rest would appear to suit your needs. ?? Cheers

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    skaraborgh

    I assume you have not watched any of my films

    this is what you are proposing I should sail around in...


    http://hensevalyd-english.jimdo.com/...micro-cruiser/

    I am sure that it goes like stuff off a shovel.....


    but not right at all.... way too expensive to build and rig and unsuited to ditch crawling with that deep keel

    here it is


    the trouble is that although it theoretically can take the mud the deep expensive to make keel has to be down for the boat to sail

    I do a lot of my sailing in three feet of water.

    Good try...but I want a superscamp

    Dylan

  23. #23
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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Dylan,

    How about TAD Roberts Pogy 17?


    http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/sm...ymotorsailor17

    http://www.tadroberts.ca/services/sm...f/pogymsGA.pdf

    A good shape for taking the ground - flat bottom. Nice widow arrangement for looking out. Looks in proportion. Would just fit in a garage. Not too heavy for trailing (750kg). Plans not expensive. Rig cheap to make. Can take alot of stores - designed for inside passage making. Outboard in a well. More than one sail though.
    Last edited by keyhavenpotterer; 06-28-2011 at 06:16 PM.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Cedric Rhyn View Post
    Chapelle was adamant that a flat bottom should be no wider than 1/6th the length and heres one thats about 1/2
    Chapelle was talking about a TRUE flat-bottomed boat ... a simple skiff with one chine per side. Scamp is quite different -- the width of the bottom is only a fraction of the overall beam, and the sides form a multi-chined curve.

    That said, it's still a stubby little boat, and seems to go amazingly well for it's shape.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    keyhaven,

    close

    very close

    but.....

    too long for the garage/ too big for the car

    Dylan

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Dylan...what about that Yachting Monthly Senior I posted on one of your other threads? You get a bit more room with the raised shear cabin sides and it is a pretty little thing. It is however...16 feet which might pose a problem. I would be tempted to fiddle with the frame spacing a bit to shrink it to fit if needed.

    Last edited by Lewisboater; 06-28-2011 at 08:57 PM.
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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Hey Dylan, what about the Wittholz "Corvus". I have sailed in one of these, delightful but not stellar performance. Lots of room for a small boat, lots of initial stability and reasonable sea-keeping, enough for day passages outside.The cabin can include more of the boat, heater solid or liquid fuel can be included.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    SCAMP was originally drawn at 10' something. SCA put it into CAD and things worked out better for the human scale when she was enlarged to 11'11". So you see, she is in CAD already and has been blow up already. So, the million dollar question is, press the buttons and she is 15', but will SuperScamp be "correct" still? Might be? Brian.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Would a 15' Scamp with a cabin still be anything like a Scamp though? I think the Scamp 'veranda' is a genuinely novel feature - less than a cuddy, more than a dodger and central to the whole concept of the boat.

    Another contender (albeit fibreglass) might be the 'Winkle Brig' by Eric Bergquivst. 16', decent cabin, outboard well, easy to trail and a with a fair bit of character.

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    YM senoir is a good choice to,you can play around with the cabin structure to suit your needs,was light enough to be towed by a Morris Minor! Another trailer boat boat would be the Hartley TS16,lightwieght,good performance,easily rigged,stable,and cosy cabin. Whats wrong with either of the above? Frame staion spacings could be reduced to get it in your garage. If building is too much aggro, get a platic Shipmate Senior.Exactley how big is this garage anyway? Cheers

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Dylan...what about that Yachting Monthly Senior I posted on one of your other threads? You get a bit more room with the raised shear cabin sides and it is a pretty little thing. It is however...16 feet which might pose a problem. I would be tempted to fiddle with the frame spacing a bit to shrink it to fit if needed.



    you are correct - a British Classic

    I overlooked it

    still want to see a Superscamp though

    I think it might be more seaworthy

    the water ballast thing is great

    the single simple to make sail is great

    I assume with an outboard in a well it would motor you out of trouble



    but the YW senior does look nice

    but for me it is the view from the cockpit that counts

    I currently sail one of the ugliest production tupperware boats ever made

    IMHO


    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/galleries/super-slug/



    Dylan

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    Default Whisstock 077

    Dylan, we're not going to give up that easily

    The 15'6'' Whisstock Design #077 may also be an option:




    • Designed to be built glued lapstrake or cold molded.
    • It doesn't make use of water ballast, but has 100kg of removable lead pigs.
    • The sail plan could probably be simplified to a balanced lug yawl

    Lance
    Last edited by Songololo; 06-29-2011 at 02:28 AM.
    "Smooth seas do not make skillful sailors". African Proverb

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    For what its worth- small cabin boats are coffin like and if youre feeling dinky go ahead and build one. Scamp works because it aint trying to be anything but a small ply shelter!

    If youre going to invest the huge amount of time and cash into a cabin boat go for the largest you can afford that will do what you want with trailering, storage etc. Regardless of the weirdos who swear by tiny cabin boats, an openboat with a good tent is a better bet weightwise and sailing wise too (ply dodgers excepted!)
    whatever rocks your boat

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul G. View Post
    For what its worth- small cabin boats are coffin like and if youre feeling dinky go ahead and build one. Scamp works because it aint trying to be anything but a small ply shelter!

    If youre going to invest the huge amount of time and cash into a cabin boat go for the largest you can afford that will do what you want with trailering, storage etc. Regardless of the weirdos who swear by tiny cabin boats, an openboat with a good tent is a better bet weightwise and sailing wise too (ply dodgers excepted!)
    You make many good points and express them well

    ....but..

    winter sailing......

    I take it that you have not done much winter sailing in an open boat

    I don't mean day sailing I mean spending three nights on the boat when night time temperatures are cold enough to make the estuaries turn to slush puppy

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scu...inter-sailing/


    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/200...g-kitesurfers/


    Perhaps you are man enough to hack it.... but I know that if I did not have a cabin where I can get warm then I would certainly not get to see all those great sunsets and sunrises while afloat - for me the winter is the most precious time afloat



    and the UK is a stopover for some spectacular migrating birds

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/200.../butley-river/

    I know that cabins are claustraphobic - I owned a 15 foot trailer sailer with a cabin

    I also know that cabin on a small boat severely compromises the looks and the sailing abilities... it is one of the reasons why I don't have dodgers on the slug
    - that way I can get winter sails like this one

    low tide on troublesome reach - with the tide underneath then even the slug can beat

    http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scu...blesome-reach/

    the slug gets me to some great places.... but it is not trailerable and so it will cost me a lot of money to keep on a mooring or a boatyard when I am retired

    so I need a boat that I can trailer and that can live in the garage with all the junk I have accumulated over 40 years of sailing and journalism

    Dylan

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    Default Re: 15 foot scamp needed - come on Welsford

    I agree about the the need for warmth, and if thats what you want then I suggest something like a cape cutter 19 if you have the room. I have plans for a Scout which is a longer Pathfinder with a cabin- its roomy and trad. John welsford can help you!
    whatever rocks your boat

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