Make my own sail- hardware

[troutman]

I'd clamp that plane in the vise with the sole flush with the top of the vise jaws and minimize chances of snapping off a cheek. Nice fids.

[Timotaeus]

I have plans for CLC Northeaster Dory and plan to use a lug rig. I've been looking at at the CLC sails and wanted a more traditional look. I'm thinking of making my own. I'm an OK sewer. I bought a sailmakers palm and I'm reading The Sailmakers Apprentice. I'm not a big plastics person. I'd like to use cotton. After reading this I'm leaning toward Dacron. Great information here!

[Todd Bradshaw]

The "look" of cotton sails really isn't all that difficult to do with Dacron. It's a matter of how you panel and cut the sail and trim it out. With Egyptian (cream colored) Dacron, narrow panels, proper traditionally-styled corner patch shapes and a few other tricks your sail will look just as traditional as most cotton sails. It will, however, feel quite different when you have to handle it, since modern Dacron is resin coated and pretty crunchy. Trying to hand sew a sail from modern Dacron usually isn't a great idea though. Stitches don't nestle down into Dacron like they do in cotton or canvas. The result is usually pretty nasty-looking panel seams and a finished sail that won't resemble either a well made cotton sail or a well made Dacron one. Save your hand stitching for edges and rings and sew your panel seams with a zig-zag machine. Your Dacron sail will look (and also probably set) much better.

Cotton with a thread count that's high enough to work well as sailcloth is nice stuff to work with, but it's damned difficult to find. I've built a few cotton sails by chopping up $100+ sets of Egyptian Cotton king-sized sheets, but they limit you to pieces less than 8' long and that really limits the number of designs that you can build from them.

[AnalogKid]

You've still not told us what sort of sails. My guess is a complete wardrobe for a 50' gaff rigged, strip planked schooner.

Edit - No, probably not, While I typed that a whole bunch of pictures appeared of stuff you've actually done - kudos.

[Timotaeus]

The Northeaster is a 17' plywood/epoxy row/sail. This balanced lug rig has an 11' mast, the yard and boom are 100"

[Timotaeus]

Todd,
Thanks for the recommendations! I'll most likely use tanbark Dacron. But, you had mentioned a White Bohemian Downproof Ticking Fabric from Hancock Fabrics in a previous post, do you still think this might work, at least for my first set of sails? But at $7/yard it's not much more for Dacron at Duckworks (except they are out of stock - and probably not be able to sell it at the $8.34/yard that it was going for). Also, if I make my own sails can I sew Dacron on a home sewing machine?
I'm going to be posting progress reports on the following blog:
http://thenortheasterdoryproject.blogspot.com/
Regards,
Tim

[Timotaeus]

This is the sail plan for the NE Dory. Not a very good picture, my apologies.
it is a 62 square foot sail. The head and the foot both being 100", the luff is 69" and the leech is 140" with the diagonal at 161".
I have another drawing showing 4 vertically sewn panels - at least I know how the designer wanted them stitched.
I found an article on the SailRite website about using a home machine - so I'll start practicing my zip-zag stitch while I look for sailcloth.
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I didn't mean to take over this thread. I think I'll start a new thread and link back to this. I'm new to this and this is my first build, so sorry.
Regards,
Tim
http://thenortheasterdoryproject.blogspot.com/
http://timotaeus.blogspot.com/

[Thad Van Gilder]

I wonder what schoonersrus is up to...

[Nicholas Scheuer]

So you "didn't buy Dacron", eh? So shall we assume it is blue Polytarp? Lots of folks use that crap for cheap sails, though I would't take a Polytarp sail as a gift.

[davebrown]

thad: the diction, speech, and eastern euro cadence, combined with that special brand of agressive know-it-all approach...

[Thad Van Gilder]

No cash on a dirty mattress yet, though...

[davebrown]

Timoteus: That 62 sq ft sail is going to be undergunned, i think. if you are going to use CLC's recommend sailplan--and i am not sure if that is your plan--at least use their double rig. i have a skerry with almost or exactly the same sail, and i can tell you that IT is undergunned a bit, and it is a smaller boat. the sprit is a fine rig, but not if it is your only rig. on blustery days on the bay i have gotten badly overpowered twice and not been able to scandalize the rig while underway, which was nerve wracking. OTH, i have never turtled the boat, and before i got so involved in a coquina build, i went all the time in sausalito.

[Todd Bradshaw]

I've seen that boat at shows and always liked it and thought it might be fun to own one. I'm not crazy about most of CLC's sailplans though and figured that if I ever built one, I'd put something like this on it.

[Timotaeus]

Well you're not the only builders that have said I could use more sail area. I'm pretty well set on a lug rig. Todd, Can you recommend a larger sail plan for the lug rig, I know you had given some ideas in another thread.
Thanks,
Tim

[Todd Bradshaw]

If you increase the linear dimensions of the sail buy a percentage - say 10% for example, the sail area increases by 10% twice because you're working in two dimensions. As in: a 62 square foot lugsail mltiplied be 110% on its edge and diagonal measurements, and them multiplied again by 110%, would yield a 75.02 sq. ft. sail with the same proportions. Then it's a matter of how much you need to move the mast to keep the sail's center of effort in about the same fore and aft spot over the hull, so that you don't screw up the helm balance. CLC tends to hang their sails awfully high over the gunwales (higher than they ought to be) so it's usually possible to relocate the sail and mast as needed if it doesn't involve too much structural modification and still keep your new CE at least as low as their original was.

[Timotaeus]

Timoteus: That 62 sq ft sail is going to be undergunned, i think. if you are going to use CLC's recommend sailplan--and i am not sure if that is your plan--at least use their double rig. i have a skerry with almost or exactly the same sail, and i can tell you that IT is undergunned a bit, and it is a smaller boat. the sprit is a fine rig, but not if it is your only rig. on blustery days on the bay i have gotten badly overpowered twice and not been able to scandalize the rig while underway, which was nerve wracking. OTH, i have never turtled the boat, and before i got so involved in a coquina build, i went all the time in sausalito.

Dave,
Thanks, you are not the first person that has mentioned they thought the sail plan was too small. I'm thinking of rethinking the rig and maybe going with a standing lug and increasing the size by 10%.
Tim

[Timotaeus]

If you increase the linear dimensions of the sail buy a percentage - say 10% for example, the sail area increases by 10% twice because you're working in two dimensions. As in: a 62 square foot lugsail mltiplied be 110% on its edge and diagonal measurements, and them multiplied again by 110%, would yield a 75.02 sq. ft. sail with the same proportions. Then it's a matter of how much you need to move the mast to keep the sail's center of effort in about the same fore and aft spot over the hull, so that you don't screw up the helm balance. CLC tends to hang their sails awfully high over the gunwales (higher than they ought to be) so it's usually possible to relocate the sail and mast as needed if it doesn't involve too much structural modification and still keep your new CE at least as low as their original was.

Todd,
Thanks, This helps. I'm thinking standing lug rig now and making it larger. Also I want to have 2 set of reef points as I'm on the San Francisco Bay. I've abandoned the idea of making cotton sails for now. I may revisit it at a later date. Any ideas on a lug rig that is appropriate for the CLC Northeaster Dory?
Tim

[Todd Bradshaw]

I don't know. I tried sticking a few of my favorite lugsail profiles on that hull and can't really say I was thrilled with the look of any of them. With the mast relocated when needed to maintain proper balance they would work, but compared to the sloop rig, they just didn't visually seem to fit the boat's shape or character very well. I coud be wrong though.

If you intend to use a standing lugsail, you had better get pretty good at figuring centers and drawing sailplans first, because adding multiple reefs to a standing lug gets pretty tricky, unless you're willing to untie and move the halyard to a different location on the yard with every reef (which would be a real pain in the ass). As you attempt a couple typical-looking reefs without doing so, you find that the yard's angle gets steeper and steeper and the sail's Center of Effort wanders all over the place. If you want to maintain the CE location without changing the halyard spot on the yard, then you have to do some rather unusual reef lines.

Example: Here is a small standing lug. When the first reef is put in, the yard's angle gets a little steeper due to the reef tack ring being brought aft, and the tail of the boom lifts a bit, but it works OK that way and the CE position hasn't changed much. The second reef is a different story. Bringing its reef tack ring down and aft to meet the proper spot on the mast or boom peaks the yard up even more. It also kicks the boom's tail way up in the air and in the process, the sail's CE gets shifted enough to really mess up the boat's helm balance. In order to level out the boom to a more reasonable angle and keep the CE where it's supposed to be, notice the odd angle that is required for the reef line. Ignore this and put in a more normal second reef and it will look just fine - until you actually try to reef the sail and are shocked to see that it doesn't work.

[Timotaeus]

I don't know. I tried sticking a few of my favorite lugsail profiles on that hull and can't really say I was thrilled with the look of any of them. With the mast relocated when needed to maintain proper balance they would work, but compared to the sloop rig, they just didn't visually seem to fit the boat's shape or character very well. I coud be wrong though.

If you intend to use a standing lugsail, you had better get pretty good at figuring centers and drawing sailplans first, because adding multiple reefs to a standing lug gets pretty tricky, unless you're willing to untie and move the halyard to a different location on the yard with every reef (which would be a real pain in the ass). As you attempt a couple typical-looking reefs without doing so, you find that the yard's angle gets steeper and steeper and the sail's Center of Effort wanders all over the place. If you want to maintain the CE location without changing the halyard spot on the yard, then you have to do some rather unusual reef lines.

Example: Here is a small standing lug. When the first reef is put in, the yard's angle gets a little steeper due to the reef tack ring being brought aft, and the tail of the boom lifts a bit, but it works OK that way and the CE position hasn't changed much. The second reef is a different story. Bringing its reef tack ring down and aft to meet the proper spot on the mast or boom peaks the yard up even more. It also kicks the boom's tail way up in the air and in the process, the sail's CE gets shifted enough to really mess up the boat's helm balance. In order to level out the boom to a more reasonable angle and keep the CE where it's supposed to be, notice the odd angle that is required for the reef line. Ignore this and put in a more normal second reef and it will look just fine - until you actually try to reef the sail and are shocked to see that it doesn't work.

Thanks Todd, I see what you mean about the reef points. I'm pretty much set on some kind of lug sail. What about a dipping lug? Or is that ridiculous? Just on sail plan not the difficulty of tacking and Gybing.
Thanks for your time,
Tim
http://timotaeus.blogspot.com

[Todd Bradshaw]

You don't want a dipping lug. It's a great and efficient sail if you're going long distances with infrequent tacks, but it's not a good recreational sail for most people. If you want a lugsail, the balanced lug or a standing lug would seem to the ones that make sense.

This is a CLC Skeery with a balanced lugsail built to a profile originally drawn by Iain Oughtred for the Ness Yawl, Elf and others. It's both a good design and one of the nicest looking lugs you'll find. We built it to 65 sq.ft. You could change the size as noted above, but I think it would give you a lugsail that would be pretty hard to top. The least expensive way to get it would be to send the dimensions in the size you want to Sailrite and have them plot you a kit for it to sew yourself. That plan of attack makes so much more sense than most of the things you're pondering, and has such better chances of turning out a sail that works well, that it's off the charts.



The plan with dimensions is here:

http://webpages.charter.net/tbradsha...s/!ELFAT65.PDF

[skaraborgcraft]

The "look" of cotton sails really isn't all that difficult to do with Dacron. It's a matter of how you panel and cut the sail and trim it out. With Egyptian (cream colored) Dacron, narrow panels, proper traditionally-styled corner patch shapes and a few other tricks your sail will look just as traditional as most cotton sails. It will, however, feel quite different when you have to handle it, since modern Dacron is resin coated and pretty crunchy. Trying to hand sew a sail from modern Dacron usually isn't a great idea though. Stitches don't nestle down into Dacron like they do in cotton or canvas. The result is usually pretty nasty-looking panel seams and a finished sail that won't resemble either a well made cotton sail or a well made Dacron one. Save your hand stitching for edges and rings and sew your panel seams with a zig-zag machine. Your Dacron sail will look (and also probably set) much better.

Cotton with a thread count that's high enough to work well as sailcloth is nice stuff to work with, but it's damned difficult to find. I've built a few cotton sails by chopping up $100+ sets of Egyptian Cotton king-sized sheets, but they limit you to pieces less than 8' long and that really limits the number of designs that you can build from them.

I find it a great pity not to see sails made like this anymore,its pure art. The balanced lugs'l i shall be constructing for a Michalak Family Skiff will be making use of webbing and stainless rings,without a lot of handwork,my fingers cant cope with too much needlework these days.
Thanks Todd for sharing your knowledge with us all,its appriciated. Cheers