Cape Henry 21 vs Penguin

[JimD]

THX...its not just you I like the looks of her too as either schooner or ketch. Do you know of any websites showing her being built, or at least line drawings?

[JimD]

As long as Grey seal is in the running I suppose it would only be fair to add Iain Oughtred's Eun Mara as well

[PVanderwaart]

re: St. Valerie. Before rushing into any changes, you want to think about why Bolger made her a schooner in the first place. Note that the main mast is at the foreward end of the cockpit. If she were a ketch, the mast would be, presumeably, just at the forward end of the tiller. There is an OB well in the cockpit already.

IIRC, this design has an unusual arrangement with the centerboard well foreward, and much of the lateral resistance provided by a big rudder.

I don't like the way the main boom rests against the very fat mast tablernacle.

The boat in the pictures was built by Devlin, I believe. It was featured in an WB article, with good pictures and drawings.

[JimD]

PV, any idea which issue of WB? I don't remember seeing it but I've only been reading the magazine for a few years.

[Venchka]

WB #157, or so says the online index.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[Venchka]

Originally posted by JimD:
As long as Grey seal is in the running I suppose it would only be fair to add Iain Oughtred's Eun Mara as well

Aye, and find out how to stretch Eun Mara to 22' like the couple in Oz did. Maybe stretch the coachroof as well like the fellow in N.C. has done with Grey Seal. Eun Mara's underbody seems to be a lot more trailer friendly than Grey Seal.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[ 01-23-2005, 03:38 PM: Message edited by: Venchka ]

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
WB #157, or so says the online index.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

So I go to the bookshelf and I find issue 156, a space, followed by #158 It's gotta be around here somewhere

[imported_Steven Bauer]

Wayne, Paul Frederickson extended the cabintop of his Eun Mara, Adagio, just like MikeP did. I'm still thinking about that 110% Eun Mara idea. I think I'll write to Iain and see what he says.

Steven

[THX712517]

Yes, the St. Valerie design has a smallish centerboard up forward and a large fin and rudder assembly hanging out back to balance things out. To my knowledge only one has been built, and she was constructed by Devlin and is currently for sale for $54,000. A bit steep for me.

I like the design more as a starting point, I guess. Bolger drew her flat-bottomed, but if I were to do it with the plywood lapstrake building method, I'd go for a round bottom. He also makes use of water ballast, and although that's admirable for keeping trailer weight down, I would put in some metal, regain the extra space, and enjoy more stability.

As for the rig, I mention the change only for aesthetic reasons. It seems like there's far too much space between the foremast and the main in a schooner configuration, but if it were as a ketch or yawl, it would be less awkward. And the rectangular masts have to go, I'm sorry.

But otherwise, great job, nice boat, wouldn't mind cruising in one for a while.

[JimD]

I think Bolger has another flat bottomed, water ballasted cat/yawl with lee boards that looks almost identical to the CMD TS 24, far be it from me to suggest that one of them ripped off the other's design . Perhaps I'm narrow mined but I'd rather stick to round or V-bottomed, with centerboard and conventional (denser than water) ballast

[Venchka]

Yep, #157, in my hand now. Yes, Jim, the other boat in the same article. But no way does it resemble the TS-24 except for the leeboards. Can you say Big Birdwatcher? Bummer, I'm missing #158. Want to trade?

I'm looking at St. Valery. You might not care for the boat as designed, but you'll be hard pressed to change anything. The foremast sits in a huge full depth open forepeak. The forward bulkead closes off the cabin and forms part of the centerboard case. An aft bulkhead forms part of a motor well and seals off the cabin in the stern. There's room on deck for a dinghy. And the whole shebang is beachable. Ok, further reading indicates that Mr. Bolger added a 950 pound steel shoe to the keel and trailer weight jumps up to 4.2k pounds. Stability and sail carrying improved dramatically.

A big, deep capable boat with no centerboard case blocking traffic. The Trailer Sailer 24 is really very similar and a lot lighter out of the water.

Moving along to the 3 sail designs from Iain Oughtred. Is the mizzen really worth the trouble? Overlooking the esthetics, does the mizzen earn it's keep in terms of the extra expense? Could you achieve the same balance when reefed with a gaff sloop and small jib set inboard?

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[JimD]

Bolger's Martha Jane. Larger than the Micro at 23', trailerable, with water ballast.

[Venchka]

Oh, ok. Martha Jane. Hmmm. The boat in WB #157 is larger. I still wouldn't talk about any of Bolger's leeboard boats in the same sentence as Stambaugh's TS-24. Not even close.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Oh, ok. Martha Jane. Hmmm. The boat in WB #157 is larger. I still wouldn't talk about any of Bolger's leeboard boats in the same sentence as Stambaugh's TS-24. Not even close.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

Well they both have those funny things hanging off the sides and you fill them part way with water to help them float better - no thanks

[Venchka]

Some folks are big enders. Some are small enders. Either way gets the job done. Different strokes for different folks.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[MikeP]

Progress report from MikeP. The Grey Seal has a cabin roof, but I now need to move it to a new location. Work on the boat has slowed considerably, health issues, divorce, etc. have made taken over as of late. I am looking forward to getting back into the sawdust and wood chips as soon as possible.
M

[Venchka]

Good luck, Mike. We're pulling and praying for you.

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[Venchka]

Jim,

You do know about this Yahoo! group, right?



CAPE HENRY 21

Wayne
In the Swamp.

[JimD]

Originally posted by Venchka:
Jim,

You do know about this Yahoo! group, right?



CAPE HENRY 21

Wayne
In the Swamp.

I do now. Thanks, buddy.

[JimD]

MikeP, glad to hear you have a roof on the Grey Seal. Hope things get sorted out well enough so you can get back at it.

[Jonas]

Mike, sorry to hear of your woes. I recall the lovely pics you had posted earlier of your work on Grey Seal. Hope everything works out for you.

[gert]

MikeP thanks for coming back; I hope Grey Seal isn't the cause of your troubles. When I finished Carina a "friend" of mine made the remark "I hope she was worth it, cause it almost cost you your marriage". It was his idea of a joke, but I took it to heart cause ya never realy know with women whats going on. It wasn't an issue but it did shake me up. I mean such a little boat (16') for such a big marriage (30 yr).
She wouldn't have been worth it.
Now on the other hand if she had been big enough to live aboard...

[ 01-24-2005, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: gert ]

[Ed Armstrong]

The Cape Henry 21 and Cape Cutter 19 are on my short-list of weekender boats to build some-day (others include the Eun Mara or Grey Seal). They sure have sweet lines.

Does anybody know how much headroom is in the CC19 or CC21? If Mr. Dix is receptive, I might suggest the following variations:

- increase the number of strakes per side to perhaps 6 to ease the curve of the sides a bit and create a more rounded transom.

- Add a second port-light, though available space between cabin top and sheer might make that diffcult without raising the cabin, which might spoil the lines.

- add an inboard electric aux motor. I don't know how that would work with the hull planking and skeg, but it would be sweet, and electric motors don't take much room. The batteries could be useable as ballast, replacing the lead in the cabin sole, but this might require raising the floor, which would be undesirable.

- I might be tempted to increase the draft a bit (to perhaps 2 feet) by extending the keel to get the CB out of the cabin, but that would take major modification and would make launching more difficult, so it's probably best left alone (besides the distinct possibility that 6" is not enough to get the CB below the cabin floor).

Anyways, it's a great looking boat, and one that I hope to build someday when my children get older. The above mods would obviously cost money for redesign, so I may or may not consider them depending upon available cash and a willing designer.

Ed

[Doug Canada]

Ed, I'm on board with you. I like the Cape Cutter & Henry. I e-mailed Mr. Dix some time ago and he replied fairly quickly. You might want to ask him your questions.

He has study plans for $30.

I think it is in "Classic Boat" magazine that they doing a series of articles about the building of a Cape Henry.

All the best,
Doug

[Swidm]

I am in the process of deciding on my next boat and have really found this thread usefull. I have managed to whittle it down to Eun Mara, Penguin, and the Cape Cutter. I am looking for a lapstrake (lived in Norway and am addicted to the look) big enough for a family of four to overnight on for a weekend, two people to camp out for a week on, but yet still be easy enough to daysail. Included in the latter requirement is light trailer/launching weight, low set-up time, and easy to single-handed launch and sail. I am worried that none of the designs satisfy the day-sail requirement but feel a smaller boat won't be big enough to weekend with the family.

Anyway, I am leaning towards the Cape Cutter because 1) it is smaller than the Penguin (building space & ease of launching and trailering) 2) provides more volume for length than Eun Mara (transom vs. canoe stern), 3) laid out to sleep 4, 4) has an open cabin design, 5) reputed to have good performance especially in light airs which seems like the majority of what I sail in, 5) has a centerboard, 6) easiest to build of the three, 7) a lot of little improvements I built into my last boat are designed into this boat (tabernacle, gooseneck, lines back to cockpit, and etc...). I have sailed with leeboards, bilgeboards, and a centerboard (all on the same boat) and found I preferred the turning and windward performance of the centerboard enough to live with the intrusion into the cabin.

My concerns with the Cape Cutter 19 are its load capacity (seems low from previous posts on this forum) and the headroom in the cabin. The latter is prooving to be a mental blockbuster. I love the lines of the cape cutter including the current cabin arrangement. I also love how the cabin extends to the sides resulting in more headroom below and an easily traversed cabin top (basically looks like more lounging space!). However, I am concerned about comfort over time in the cabin. I have conteplated raising the height but that could ruin the lovely lines of the boat, limit visibility, and make it hard to traverse the top of the cabin.

So, any thoughts? Anyone have one of the Cape Cutters or anyone want to persuade me to put one of the other designs on the top of the stack? I really would appreciate any insight you can give me!

[ 02-05-2005, 11:15 PM: Message edited by: Swidm ]

[Doug Canada]

Swidm,
You may want to contact Dudley Dix (the designer) at;

dudley@dixdesign.com <dudley@dixdesign.com>

He has replied to all of my questions.
I hope to build the Cape Cutter as well some day.

All the best,
Doug

[Swidm]

I emailed Dudley Dix sunday and he emailed right back. Turns out that the Cape Cutter 19 has more than enough capacity to take my family for a weekend or cruise for a week with two people and all supplies and gear needed. Headroom on centerline is 3'9" and sitting headroom is 35". Finally, the galley cabinets are also structural reinforcing the hull where the mast and shrouds are.

[Doug Canada]

Dudley is very good in his email replies.
There is a $30 study plan for the Cape Cutter.
Both my wife and I are 6' and cabin space was a concern to me as well.
Dudley Dix is fairly tall as well and indicated that he had sufficiant room.

Doug

[DrakeChristensen]

I suppose I'm risking heresy but: this weekend I saw the Eclipse from Com-Pac Yachts at the Strictly Sail show in Chicago. Similar dimensions, cabin layout, etc. My wife and I thought it would be entirely suitable for us and our two small kids for the weekend, or just the two of us for a longer period. So, for what it's worth, I have been considering building a Cape Cutter/Henry but was skeptical of it meeting our needs. After seeing this Com-Pac I now know it's possible to provide adequate space in a boat of these dimensions. Trouble now is to get my wife on the same side of the "build vs. buy" discussion.

[Swidm]

Dudley Dix (DD) is 6'2" and he also expressed to me that he finds the interior comfortable. I mocked up the cabin with my tapemeasure and figure the cabin will be comfortable for the amount of time I would spend in her. Most of the time at anchor I figure I will be lounging outside in the cockpit or on that wonderfully flat cabin roof. For those times when it is cold or rainy outside I figure the cabin will be plenty comfortable.

I am a bit concerned about the length of the forward V berth which is why I asked DD about the possiblity of removing the galley cabinets, extending the V berth aft and tucking the sink and stove under the foot of the V berth. Basically, copying the Nimble Fox and (thanks to Drake) the Eclipse's layout. That is when I learned the galley is structural and removing it would require some redesign of the bulkheads to keep the strength.

Drake, thanks for sharing your perceptions of the Eclipse. Glad it was included in the boat show. At the mid-america boatshow there were only three trailerable sailboats with accomodations and none were comparable.

BTW, I contacted the boat kit builder here in the US and found that the price for the Cape Henry 21' plywood kit is about $2200 which seems rather reasonable especially for the labor saved. The gentleman also expressed the possibilty of doing a kit for the Cape Cutter 19' saying that he had the rights to all Dudley Dix's designs in the U.S.

Drake, the make or buy decision is a hard one especially if you have to sell it to your significant other. Fortunately for me, my wife loves having something different than the standard clorox bottle. She has also seen how much building relaxes me and improves my health. So, she is fine with the mess, expense, and time it takes but only as long as she can still park in the garage and I clean the sawdust off her car. [img]smile.gif[/img]

[ 02-08-2005, 10:07 PM: Message edited by: Swidm ]

[Doug Canada]

Swidm

I cannot get the links to the "Nimble Fox" and "Com-Pac Eclipse" work.
I tried to Google them as well, but with no luck as well.
Any information on them would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
Doug

[Swidm]

Probably because I had the name of the manufacturer wrong. The boat I was thinking of was the Seaward Fox (not nimble) sorry.

http://www.seawardyachts.com/page5.html

[DrakeChristensen]

One thing to note as I look more closely at the Cape Henry vs. the Com-Pac Eclipse I mentioned above: the Cape Henry's centerboard case appears to bisect the cabin right down the middle. The Eclipse centerboard is presumably located entirely in the small appendage keel; the cabin sole is flat. To me that might make a big difference in the comfort of the space (if no difference in the quantity of space) and provide a better spot for the coleman cooler. Might be interesting to ask Mr. Dix whether a similar appendage keel/centerboard would work on the Cape Henry.

BTW/my wife sounds like yours - she fully supports my habit - but she wants to 'buy' now so we can sail now (God bless her). And, something like a centerboard in the middle of the cabin - however functional - could be a deal breaker for her.

[Doug Canada]

Help.
Looking for more information on the "Com-Pac Eclipse".

Cannot find a (google) link that works?

Doug

[DrakeChristensen]

Try this:

http://www.com-pacyachts.com/com-paceclipse.php